Why HSTS MtF receive worse treatment by society than AAP FtM

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>>7814139
>Cara is asking the real questions for once.

I'm only going to reply to your thread because htis shit actually happened to me.
Druggie tumblr trenders get help on the shelter while I wasn't allowed in because "lol male" even though I was explaining them I got thrown out of house because my dad didn't want a "tranny son".

Atm I'm living with a nice anon from /r9k/ because of this. We don't even fuck he was nice enough to just let me not sleep in the streets or be beaten to death.

Every day that passes I hate women more even though I wanted to be one, this is not healthy.

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Because you are a stalker and a rapist and a future school shooter tbqh.

>>7814222
>even though I wanted to be one,
>wanted
A G P
G
P

Everything that is happening to you you obviously deserve it. Stop invading women's and TruTrans MtF safe spaces, fetistist. You are NOT welcome there.

>>7814264
>FtM
>Women spaces.

I know you're baiting but the sad thing is that there's people like you, I was treated like shit by the people in the shelter. They went full tumblr nazi on me because I wasn't a womyn in need even though I was crying like a bitch.

>>7814294
Uhhh, if they were Tumblr Nazis, they would have let you in because they saw you as a real woman based on your gender identity and nothing else. You're thinking of radfems.

>>7814222
This is why "transmisogyny" is a dishonest word. MtFs are victims of misandry.

>Every day that passes I hate women more even though I wanted to be one, this is not healthy.
Better than hating men and becoming feminist as you transition.

>>7814350
>This is why "transmisogyny" is a dishonest word. MtFs are victims of misandry.

Lmaaaaooooo

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>>7814294
Your first mistake was admitting that you are an AGP my man.

Actual trans people ARE the gender they identify with, only crossdressing AGP transbian straight men (such as yourself) use the expression "WANT TO BE."

>>7814222
>Hon selling his "boipucci" to beta autist from /r9k/ so he doesn't live in the streets.
>Cries about muh privileged FtM.


Maybe you got thrown out because you didn't pass you fucking freak. Stop trying to put the blame on me lmao

>>7814512
>Maybe you got thrown out because you didn't pass
^ this

>>7814506
HSTS are just homos who realize they fit in better as women. AGP are trutrans because they want to be female.

>>7814570
Trutrans women know they are female, they don't "want to be".

>>7814586
Correct. AGP women are female in a male body. HSTS are gays who want a male body.

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>>7814506
>>7814512
>>7814527
So unless I write a wall of text talking about my dysphoria and choose my words wisely my fellow MtF overlords won't allow me to be trans. Alright.
Also the FtM anon, you sound like a butthurt kid trying to show off how manly you are, specially the beta part about the anon from /r9k/. I could go on and say how much manlier he is than you will ever be but w/e enjoy yourself, maybe you will grow out of your edgyness one day.

Also you all keep making fun of it but none of you were thrown out of your home, it's the worst feel ever, be more thankful for what you have.

>>7814350
>This is why "transmisogyny" is a dishonest word. MtFs are victims of misandry.
qft

>>7818127
Source?

>>7814139
>female privilege
You fucking retard.

Resources to help WOMEN (includes all types of "FtM") in need exist because WOMEN have started to stand the fuck up for their rights in what's called the feminist movement, or if you want to distinguish it from the bullshit that passes as "feminism" since the "third wave", the Women's Liberation Movement.

There was a co-movement called the Gay Liberation Front, and if fucking sex liberals, pornographers, and self-hating gays had not destroyed that movement I'm sure HSTS could have found a goop place somewhere around that movement.

Blame the patriarchy, basically. Read "Unpacking Queer Politics" by Sheila Jeffreys to see how sex liberal / "queer" ideology, which is a re-manifestation of patriarchal ideals in the faux-liberal scene, slowly fucked up both the women's and gay liberation movements.

That's why AGP trannies are running around wild now screaming about so-called TERFs literally murdering them through misgendering, and nobody gives a fuck about HSTS who actually suffer considerably under patriarchy.

>>7825812
If you're spending your time reading Sheila Jeffreys instead of sucking a guy's dick for money, I guarantee you're not HSTS even if you think you are.

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>>7825812
Unpacking Queer Politics is my #1 favorite book I read after sucking that phat patriarch cock tbqh.

>>7825823
>tfw I suck a guy's dick for money then read Sheila Jeffreys on the side

>>7814139
what does hsts and aap mean?
I do not know it's tbqh either... π~π

>>7814222
>I wanted to be one
It's very obvious you were never really trans, you're just a stupid pathetic low test attention whoring faggot who needs to be beaten to a pulp en extricated from the gene pool.

>>7814691
bye hobo,
hope you get set alight by some edgy teens.

>>7825812
Tell us more about the Patriarchy's infiltration, pls.

>>7825918
this toby q. honnerst

>>7814139
>unlike FtM which are usually accepted by their peers
hahahahahahahaha

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>This thread.
You guys are too mean to the homeless anon, it's quite a bad situation to have nowhere to go.
Also Cara stop shitposting please. Go prepare yourself for your date with nicole instead.

>>7825812
>Resources to help WOMEN (includes all types of "FtM")
>in what's called the feminist movement,
Here we have it, feminism fights FOR female privilege, and counts FtMs but not MtFs as part of their class struggle against males.

>>7814139
this is actually unironically a good point and i agree with everything except for your use of the misandry meme
t. ftm

>>7827482
>except for your use of the misandry meme
Explain?

>>7827510
misandry is (loosely) defined as discrimination against men soley on the basis of their being a man. if an mtf claims to experience misandry, she is basically saying she's not a woman. same goes for an ftm who says he experiences misogyny. a transwoman being turned away from a woman's shelter is experiencing transphobia.

>>7827545
>if an mtf claims to experience misandry, she is basically saying she's not a woman.
No, she is saying the discrimination against her was on the basis of her being a man. She is a woman, but being perceived as a man was why she was discriminated against.

>a transwoman being turned away from a woman's shelter is experiencing transphobia.
How do you reconcile that with an FtM not being turned away?

The trans woman was discriminated against because the woman's shelter perceived her as a man and decided out of misandry that she therefore shouldn't be helped.

The trans man gets the support that a cis woman does and that a cis man or trans woman wouldn't because he is perceived as a cis woman. That is why he is benefiting from female privilege.

Transphobia doesn't come into it for either of them.

>>7827595
then would you think it would be wrong for a cis man to be turned away from the same shelter?

>>7827620
I'm not talking about rights and wrongs. The fact is the trans woman and the cis man would be turned away on the exact same basis, which as you said is misandry.

She isn't being singled out for being trans, so even without the trans man for comparison it's obvious she isn't the victim of transphobia here. She's singled out, along with cis men, for being male.

>>7827664
>The fact is the trans woman and the cis man would be turned away on the exact same basis, which as you said is misandry.

Lmao, that's not why cis men are turned away, are you guys fucking crazy? Cis men do not belong at WOMEN'S shelters, period.

>>7827693
>Cis men do not belong at WOMEN'S shelters, period.
As the other anon said "misandry is (loosely) defined as discrimination against men soley on the basis of their being a man."

Literally dictionary misandry.

As OP said, the trans woman, just like cis men, doesn't get female privilege. That's reserved for cis women, and trans men even though they often don't want it.

>>7827664
>She's singled out, along with cis men, for being male
she's not, though. and for the sake of your argument it does matter if the shelter is justified in turning away a cis man: in that case, they wouldn't be (unfairly) discriminating against said cis man, since there's nothing wrong with keeping a women's-exclusive shelter women's-exclusive. if they turn away a trans woman, yes, it's because they see her as a man but also because they *don't* see her as a woman -> they're refusing to acknowledge her gender/treat her as a woman -> transphobia.

the situation with a trans man is tricky, i admit, but if he's pre-transition and escaping a truly fucked up situation then that's probably a fair exception. if he passes completely he might be better off at a coed shelter or an lgbt specific one. it's something to judge on an individual basis.

>>7827720
>not getting raped
>female privilege

Really makes you drink

>>7827720
I'm a trans woman, and if I were at a shelter after getting abused by a man, I wouldn't want to sleep anywhere near men, thank you very much.

>>7827747
Rape on male is considered at best funny, at worst deserved.

>>7827732
>the situation with a trans man is tricky, i admit, but if he's pre-transition and escaping a truly fucked up situation then that's probably a fair exception. if he passes completely he might be better off at a coed shelter or an lgbt specific one. it's something to judge on an individual basis.
i'm autistic enough to need to elaborate on this really quick--this whole argument is already just semantics, but in practice, whether they're technically "discriminating" against him does not matter if safety is a factor. i think most places should ideally be willing to bend a few rules when it comes to complex gender stuff, anyway.

>>7827732
>>She's singled out, along with cis men, for being male
>she's not, though.
No, you know they don't let her in because they see her as male.

>if the shelter is justified in turning away a cis man
>they wouldn't be (unfairly) discriminating against said cis man
No, that is irrelevant. You consider discriminating against men in some arbitrary cases acceptable. Sure, like I said I'm not talking about rights and wrongs. They are still being discriminated against solely on the basis of being men, which as you said is misandry.

>if they turn away a trans woman, yes, it's because they see her as a man but also because they *don't* see her as a woman
That's literally the same thing unless you are bringing trendscum into this.

>they're refusing to acknowledge her gender/treat her as a woman -> transphobia.
What's the big deal with keeping a womyn-born-womyn's-exclusive shelter womyn-born-womyn-exclusive?

>but if he's pre-transition and escaping a truly fucked up situation then that's probably a fair exception.
Nobody, OP or anyone else, mentioned him being pre-transition or what his situation or the trans woman's were.

Would you still consider it transphobic for the shelter to turn away a trans woman if she's pre-transition or her situation isn't truly fucked up, in their judgement?

>>7827776
>this whole argument is already just semantics
I thought right and wrong have something to do with it now?

>but in practice, whether they're technically "discriminating" against him does not matter if safety is a factor.
Sure. Same view on the cis man?

>>7827747
You're saying men shouldn't have that not-a-privilege, so what else would you call it?

>>7827756
Then I'm afraid you're out of luck, because it's the street for you, along with all the other people turned away from the shelter for being male.

>>7827759
If males didn't commit 99% of all rapes maybe people would feel sorry for you.

>>7827832
misandry/misogyny does not just mean treating someone differently--whether it's right or wrong matters very much for whether you're using the word correctly (and therefore, yeah, the semantics). i assumed that was implied with the word "discrimination," but apparently not.

you're making up your own meaning for these words. or, i guess, maybe we don't agree on the exact nuances of these terms, in which case i'm done arguing and i'll just let you have the last word.

>What's the big deal with keeping a womyn-born-womyn's-exclusive shelter womyn-born-womyn-exclusive?
much as i want to i'm not going to point out le ebin logical fallacy in this sentence. i never claimed that it should be, and neither did you.

>Nobody, OP or anyone else, mentioned him being pre-transition or what his situation or the trans woman's were.
i'll admit that was an unnecessary hypothetical

>Would you still consider it transphobic for the shelter to turn away a trans woman if she's pre-transition or her situation isn't truly fucked up, in their judgement?
yes, but as i'm trying to say, it doesn't really matter whether they're transphobic or discriminatory or not if it's putting someone in harms way. the OP was originally about how people discriminate against transwomen AND in favor of trans men, but in many cases both kinds of people still deserve more help than a cis person would in their situation. it's not like they're giving "special treatment" to trans men (generally), they just happen to be even shittier to trans women.

>>7827907
If men weren't ridiculed for even mentioning they were raped, even by law enforcement, that statistic would probably look quite a lot different.

>>7827919
>misandry/misogyny does not just mean treating someone differently--whether it's right or wrong matters very much for whether you're using the word correctly (and therefore, yeah, the semantics). i assumed that was implied with the word "discrimination," but apparently not.
Wait, so discrimination isn't an action, but dependent on right and wrong? The exact same treating-people-differently-by-arbitrary-characteristics might or might not be discrimination, depending on if it's ok or not?

In that case, treating males differently for being male is not ok, therefore these women's shelters are discriminatory and are misandrist.

>you're making up your own meaning for these words. or, i guess, maybe we don't agree on the exact nuances of these terms, in which case i'm done arguing and i'll just let you have the last word.
If I use any word differently to what you mean by it, say so.

>much as i want to i'm not going to point out le ebin logical fallacy in this sentence. i never claimed that it should be, and neither did you.
I misunderstood, I thought the reason you were saying the women's shelter shouldn't turn away trans women was because they should get the same treatment as women. But, correct me if I'm wrong, the issue is that it's a women's shelter, therefore trans women are implicitly included, and not a womyn-born-womyn's shelter, which would be equally fine to exist but unlike the other, since this one is explicitly not for trans women, it wouldn't be transphobic for it to turn trans women away?

Could they just include it in small print?

>Women's* Shelter
>(*Where 'Women' means cis women and trans men.)

>i'll admit that was an unnecessary hypothetical
Sure. Why include it?

[cont.]

>>7827919
>it doesn't really matter whether they're transphobic or discriminatory or not if it's putting someone in harms way. the OP was originally about how people discriminate against transwomen AND in favor of trans men, but in many cases both kinds of people still deserve more help than a cis person would in their situation.
Right, trans people face problems cis people don't. So shouldn't we have more trans shelters and LGBT shelters, instead of just expecting both trans women and trans men to use women's shelters?

Are cis men really so much less deserving than cis women that they should get turned away from women's shelters? If trans people got the shelters they deserve that cis people don't, then why treat one group of cis people as more deserving than another?

>it's not like they're giving "special treatment" to trans men (generally), they just happen to be even shittier to trans women.
I don't think anyone said trans men got special treatment. As OP said, they get the regular female privilege treatment just the same as cis women.

You anons are all missing the point here.

Why would people that are trying to help women throw one out in the the streets just because she happens to be trans?

That doesn't sound very nice specially comming from the kind of people that usually are in there, no?

I wonder if it was a muslim man instead of a trans woman they would let the fucker stay in the shelter because muh minority points SJW like to collect.

>>7828144
>Why would people that are trying to help women throw one out in the the streets just because she happens to be trans?
Why would people that are trying to help *people* throw one out on the street because he happened to be *male*?

Because they aren't trying to help people, they are trying to help women, and they aren't trying to help women, they're trying to help womyn, that is, cis women and trans men.

>>7828156
>Why would people that are trying to help *people* throw one out on the street because he happened to be *male*?
so this is what you're ultimately arguing for? well yes, they should. the vast majority of these places are for women escaping abuse or for homeless women who would be at very high risk of rape in coed spaces. i think trans women should be able to be included in them because they are women and also because they're statistically much more likely to be at risk of gendered or non-gendered abuse/violence than cis men.

>inb4 this starts a whole round of "well how do we determine if they're REALLY trans or just lying?"

>Wait, so discrimination isn't an action, but dependent on right and wrong?
in some contexts it can just mean treating someone differently. in others, like, i would assume, talking about the definition of the word misandry, it means treating someone unfairly based on arbitrary conditions (like gender).

>>7814139
on what basis are they deciding that trans women aren't allowed in women's shelters?

is it because they're large hons and look like men, don't pass?

or even if you passed would you still be turned away if they found out you have a pen0r?

>>7825823
I'm not HSTS, just a nerd who's interested in these topics.

I'm pretty sure you can find HSTS out there who are intellectual enough to read Jeffreys and understand that she's right though.

>>7825877
My sibling of similar cultural heritage.

>>7825915
HSTS = homosexual transsexual, i.e. a man who becomes trans because he's gay
AAP = Autoandrophilic, like autogynephilic but the opposite

>>7825952
Read Jeffreys or something, radfems know this shit better than me and can explain it better, too.
Another good book is "The Sexual Liberals and the Attack on Feminism" though that's concerned with feminism in particular and not LGBT liberation.

>>7827328
Is it a "privilege" for black people to have BLM, or that they had the Black Panthers? No, they're reactions to adverse situations. They need to stick together because the rest of society oppresses them. That's how it is with the women's movement, too. It's not a privilege, it's fighting back in adverse conditions.

Society by and large still hates women's guts. See: amounts of violence in porn, abortion still illegal in tons of places, creepy AGP trans get more support by society than women... Hell, it'll soon become a hate crime to "misgender" someone but to rape and kill a woman still isn't considered a hate crime, just a sad incident.

But this thread isn't about feminism so let's please not derail it. Direct me to another thread if you want to talk more about it and we'll continue there.

>>7814506
>only crossdressing AGP transbian straight men
People always shitting on transbians. (Most don't have AGP you fucking brain dead sack of shit)

This is the same shit people used to say about early lesbians. That they must be turned on by themselves all the time and not get anything done etc.

Like just grow up. Lesbian trans women are just another gender sexuality combo. Nothing special.

>HSTS MtF?

What does HSTS even mean?

>>7828443
>the vast majority of these places are for women escaping abuse or for homeless women who would be at very high risk of rape in coed spaces. i think trans women should be able to be included in them because they are women and also because they're statistically much more likely to be at risk of gendered or non-gendered abuse/violence than cis men.
That begs the question why help only people from the demographics *likely to* experience violence instead of the *individuals* who *actually do*?

An MRA would claim here that cis women aren't more likely to experience violence than cis men and that therefore while your justification for trans shelters might be true, the feminist premise for the women's shelters in the first place isn't.

>inb4 this starts a whole round of "well how do we determine if they're REALLY trans or just lying?"
You covered that by saying turning away pre-transition trans women is fine. Are there any liars dedicated enough to get around that?

When did either of us not use your definition of discrimination and misandry?

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Why the fuck would anyone deny shelter to someone just because of their genitals.
WTF.

>>7829462
Homosexual trans-sexual.

But the creator gave it a silly meaning, he uses it as a term for trans people who are attracted to the opposite gender, for example a MtF whos into guys so a hetero relationship. Its silly.

>>7829462
It's a term that became a meme on 4chan due to shitposters.

Blanchard is a retard anyways, basically he calls them homosexual transsexuals instead of hetero MtF since in his mind it's a homo dude that's attracted to dudes instead of a woman attracted to dudes hence her being hetero.

In the end it became a buzzword here in 4chan, just like AGP.

>>7830178

>An MRA would claim...
they would be wrong.

>You covered that by saying turning away pre-transition trans women is fine. Are there any liars dedicated enough to get around that?
wrong. i said some pre-transition trans men should be included, i never said or implied anywhere that pre-transition trans women wouldn't.

>When did either of us not use your definition of discrimination and misandry?

>>The trans woman was discriminated against because the woman's shelter perceived her as a man and decided out of misandry that she therefore shouldn't be helped.
the first post i made was about how i took issue with this. it's not misandry, because in my personal opinion it wouldn't be misandry to turn away a cis man in the same position, but it would be transphobic to turn away a trans woman because they don't consider her a woman.

>>7830303
MtF here. I've been denied from every homeless shelter I went to when I got kicked out at 15. If you're gonna be living in the street, either you were born with a vagina and get protected or you weren't and either die or suffer for the hideous crime of being born male.

>>7830962
How did you get by while homeless?

>>7830962
Well did you pass? Were you even on hormones?

>>7830918
>they would be wrong.
Sure. When the feminists and the MRAs start arguing I don't know whose numbers to trust. Just saying that for your claim that the statistics mean trans people deserve more help than cis people and women deserve more help than men, others say the statistics mean women don't deserve more help than men in the first place, before even getting to the issue of trans people and gendered shelters.

>wrong. i said some pre-transition trans men should be included, i never said or implied anywhere that pre-transition trans women wouldn't.
I misunderstood, you seemed to be saying one thing about pre-transition trans men and a different thing about pre-transition trans women.

>the first post i made was about how i took issue with this. it's not misandry, because in my personal opinion it wouldn't be misandry to turn away a cis man in the same position, but it would be transphobic to turn away a trans woman because they don't consider her a woman.
Why are you taking that view? Ignoring the "phobia = fear" semantics and taking transphobia as meaning the same against trans people as misandry does against men, turning someone away because they are male, whether cis man or trans woman, is misandry as you defined it >>7828443

Transphobis would be turning someone away because they are trans, which isn't what OP was talking about. Trans people are welcome, if they're natal female, so misandry.

>>7830962
>If you're gonna be living in the street, either you were born with a vagina and get protected or you weren't and either die or suffer for the hideous crime of being born male.
Would you having experienced this treatment say that not getting the protecting of being born with a vagina is misandry or transphobia?

>>7830962
There was a 15 year old boy who was beat by his mother. Went to a battered women's shelter and was denied. He then died sleeping outside the shelter in the snow.

There was also the case where a man left his abusive wife with their daughter. Went to find refuge at a shelter and was denied but the girl was allowed to stay. He let her stay and went to sleep in the car. The shelter called the police, arrested the man and put the girl in custody of the mother, who ended up killing her.

>>7831026
I can see why MRAs are emotional about this issue.

>>7830998
>When the feminists and the MRAs start arguing I don't know whose numbers to trust.
Do a little research on your own. If something sounds fishy, actually look it up. But as a general rule of thumb oppressed groups have it worst than non-oppressed groups. This means gays, blacks and men will have more targeted by violence, be killed more, or be homeless more. Privileged groups straights, whites, and women will be protected by society and not have as much victimization.

>>7831058
I see what you're saying, but a lot of the time researching these things is just a tangent to a tangent. The feminist poster I was talking to says women face more gendered and non-gendered violence, you say female privilege means men do, I'm sure you'll both have studies to agree with your points, but we can talk about both and what they imply for the original topic, which is trans people and transphobia and misandry.

In the end with genders and shelters, people needing help are all individuals and all need help, regardless of the numbers different groups throw at each other.

>>7831058
>oppressed groups
>men

Lmao. You just stole SJW privilege dynamics and put yourselves in place of women, why? Why even work within that framework if you're gonna reject its fundamentals?

>>7833875
>if you're gonna reject its fundamentals?
???

>>7831026
how can such horrible things happen? the boy who died could have been >>7830962 if she was kicked out in the winter. maybe he even got beaten for being gay or trans :(

>>7830303

>>7827732
>they wouldn't be (unfairly) discriminating against said cis man, since there's nothing wrong with keeping a women's-exclusive shelter women's-exclusive.
>>7827919
>in many cases both kinds of people still deserve more help than a cis person would in their situation. it's not like they're giving "special treatment"
>>7828443
>yes, they should. the vast majority of these places are for women escaping abuse or for homeless women who would be at very high risk of rape in coed spaces.
>they're statistically much more likely to be at risk of gendered or non-gendered abuse/violence than cis men.

>>7831026
[citation needed]

>>7829010
>Society by and large still hates women's guts. See: amounts of violence in porn, abortion still illegal in tons of places, creepy AGP trans get more support by society than women... Hell, it'll soon become a hate crime to "misgender" someone but to rape and kill a woman still isn't considered a hate crime, just a sad incident.
delusional

>>7825812
>so-called TERFs
Except they are TERFs. That's literally what it stands for.

>>7814222
>Atm I'm living with a nice anon from /r9k/ because of this. We don't even fuck he was nice enough to just let me not sleep in the streets or be beaten to death.
that warms my heart

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>>7831026
And then they dare to call MRAs a hate group, and society actually believes them. Feminists are scum. Absolute evil scum.

>>7849386
Plenty of people who don't call themselves feminists are happy with the way things are too.

>>7814294
>I was treated like shit by the people in the shelter. They went full tumblr nazi on me because I wasn't a womyn in need even though I was crying like a bitch.
what happened?

>>7827328
FtMs have vaginas, which are a female part no matter how much the MtFs and FtMs on this board cry that vaginas and dicks don't have genders.