What do you think about feminism?

>>7742535
Cis females already live life in easy mode.

>>7742535
I think it blows my mind that people think even the gay side of 4chan will have anything nice to say about feminazis.

It's good intentions laced with politics and sexism. I try to avoid it.

To me, Feminism is like Communism.

In theory, it works. When practiced...not so much.

If they were not adamant on hating on guys and actually fought for equal rights (rather than female dominance), then it might be good.

>>7742535
Feminism is the movement for protecting and extending female privilege.

As if being male wouldn't have been bad enough anyway.

>>7742535
Like all ideologies there's good mixed with bad mixed with plain old ugly. Most here will just say it's complete shit because of TERFs tho. There's a lot of animosity among trans women towards radfems because of that particular subgroup (which is kinda justified desu).

>>7742602
This is exactly how I feel too

>>7742535
Cancer
t. MtF who doesn't need it

>>7742652
>Like all ideologies there's good mixed with bad mixed with plain old ugly.
Feminism, Communism, Nazism, all a mix of good, bad and ugly.

>>7742535
they lied
t. ftm

>>7742672
Its just not equal parts good and bad

>>7742679
Examples please?

Feminism is the idea that white women, who are already the most privileged people to ever walk the planet, need more privileges. You can claim that intersectional feminism focuses on women of color, but you will find white women always get their needs addressed first.

>>7742535
It's alright.
I like Emma Goldman.

>>7742672
Well, if I may play Devil's advocate, the inherent nationalism from Nazism wasn't terrible, and served to restore Germany's pride after WWI, plus Hitler managed to use the economic boom of the Weimar Republic to create an economy that could be sustainable as long as there was war.

Marx's reason for creating Communism was make an ideology that would bring economic equality to the entire globe's working class, which failed spectacularly, mind you, but he had good intentions.

Feminism attempts to liberate women from a system that oppressed them for millenia, but recently has become more radical, and has started to advocate for female supremacy instead of equality, while ignoring oppressive ideologies outside of the West.

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>>7742535
I try not to because it causes me unnecessary stress.
I'll occasionally get sucked in and spend like half an hour getting pissed off before I remember I'm a gay man and I don't have to give a shit about this garbage, then I walk away from it feeling pity for straight guys.

>>7742646
Female privilege should be protected and extended because there's so little of it right now.

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It is in essence correct, but has been co-opted by misandrist lesbians, and liberal identity politics.
Most reasonable and educated people have internalized it's core tenants, so as an ideology it has mostly fulfilled it's purpose.
The only people still going on about it are: confused and insecure teenage girls, sexually frustrated teenage boys and the logical conclusions of those two ( misandrist lesbians, "neckbeards"). Also professional bloggers, gender studies majors and other irrelevant scum of the earth who frequent online message boards like this.

>>7745689
Marx invented communism because he was a lazy bitch NEET who wanted the government to do everything for him.

>>7742535
death to all feminists.

>>7745755
>so little female privelidge
>what is the right to genital integrity that men don't have
>what is the divorce courts, which unfairly advantage women directly because of feminist activism
>what is the sentencing gap, where women receive much less harsh sentences than men
>what is women being twice as likely to be hired for a stem job
That sparse female privilege, it's almost nonexistent!

Feminism has been a cancer since it was first concieved, and plays on the chivalry and natural want to please women inherent in most men to twist society to benefit women more than men.

>>7742535
I think it's pretty irritating, especially how feminists try to bully everyone into joining their cult. I forgot who, but some female celeb, said she wasn't a feminist and there was a huge uproar until the celeb had to issue an apology or some shit.

>>7746348
I find it particularly egregious how feminists feel the need to inject themselves in everything. Why is warhammer or mtg having fewer female player a feminist issue?

>>7746322
>Feminism has been a cancer since it was first concieved
Yes, because women being able to vote, have jobs, and not be forced into literal sex slavery is a bad thing. Go back to /pol/ and whine some more about how equal rights is white genocide.

>>7742535
I find it obnoxious. It's just Marxism with a different label. Seriously. If you replace white men with Capitalists and women with proletariat you have something Lennin would have loved.

>>7745689
Ignoring? More like embracing. I find it baffling how they will fight a fatass white supremacist who is no threat to anyone to the end of time but they will happily accept a Islamist who believes throwing gays of buildings and tossing acid on a woman's face for not wearing a hijab is acceptable.

It baffles me. Like seriously what the fuck happened?

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>>7745689
>Marx's reason for creating Communism was make an ideology that would bring economic equality to the entire globe's working class, which failed spectacularly, mind you, but he had good intentions.

>economic equality to the entire globe's working class

If you think that's what Communism is or what Marx's idea was then I'm sorry but you're a blithering retard and I'm sorry your education has failed you.
I suggest you stop posting about communism until you've actually read the Communist Manifesto and, if time permits, Wage Labour and Capital.

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>>7746521
T.1908 woman
>>7746980
Marxism didn't privilege one gender over another. It's pretty fucking clear what it's aim was m8
>>7747104
Communism is a false interpretation of an impossibly idealist system to be more accurate.
Either way it can't work then again capitalism doesn't work nowadays either
>>7742535
Feminism refuses to accept me as a woman because AGP isn't a group get, fuck feminism

>>7746991
>I find it baffling how they will fight a fatass white supremacist who is no threat to anyone to the end of time but they will happily accept a Islamist who believes throwing gays of buildings and tossing acid on a woman's face for not wearing a hijab is acceptable.
They won't though. Stop falling for memes.

>>7747123
>T.1908 woman
So since some of the rights feminism fought for are taken for granted in the West today, that means those feminists are retroactively "cancer"? You need to recognize that the present depends on the past. If women hadn't fought for their rights in the past, women today wouldn't have those rights - even though now, since those rights were attained so long ago, they're taken for granted.

>>7747123
>Communism is a false interpretation of an impossibly idealist system to be more accurate.
You realize the scholars in France were saying the same thing about the revolution right?
When Feudalism was in decline, scholarly monks literally thought it was the end of the world, that society would descend into chaos.

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>>7747167
>Feminists are retroactively "cancer"
Never said that hon, very honest of you.
Also
>What is third wave?
>>7747178
That's not a point, your not even clear of your view on capitalism or communism in this random factoid with no date or context. Sounds like smug faggotry.

>>7747222
>That's not a point, your not even clear of your view on capitalism or communism in this random factoid with no date or context. Sounds like smug faggotry.
in response to your odd antagonism, my point is that, as Marx said 1 gorillion times in the Communist manifesto, ideas of a revolutionary society to replace the old one have always been thought of as, in your words, "impossibly idealist" by even the most educated scholars. As with feudalism, so with capitalism. I don't really see the "smug faggotry" in simple historical analysis.

>>7742542
In western societies anyway.

Now western feminists hate women.
They want to punish other women and force them to behave in the ways that they deem acceptable.

Why do you think that feminists love Islam so much?

>>7747123
Listen to what I said. It's a rebrand of Marxism. Just take out Capitalist and proletariat and replace it with White Men and Women or """oppressed""" group of your choice. The language they use is different but the principal exactly the same. One group (the capitalists, the evil white men) are pure evil and are doing everything humanly possible to oppress and keep down other group (women, blacks, ect.)

>>7747167
Seen German and Sweidsh feminism recently? It's not a meme. In America it's the same too. They let some fucker who supports Sharia Law and tried to harass a women into silence for trying to make a documentary on how horrible Saudi Arabia treats women. If you think feminism is anything less than a cancer you're fooling yourself. It is nothing be divisive and blatantly bigoted

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cancer so much cancer

>>7747222
>Never said that hon, very honest of you.
No, but the person I was originally replying to did.

>What is third wave?
Something too vaguely defined to be truly worthy of either praise or condemnation.

>>7747242
>Listen to what I said. It's a rebrand of Marxism. Just take out Capitalist and proletariat and replace it with White Men and Women or """oppressed""" group of your choice. The language they use is different but the principal exactly the same. One group (the capitalists, the evil white men) are pure evil and are doing everything humanly possible to oppress and keep down other group (women, blacks, ect.)
You should ACTUALLY read some Marx, then you might realize that "principle being the same" doesn't mean it's a rebranding of some old concept. Look at the class struggle as defined by Marx, it exists in every era, but that's just because it's a simple, universal concept, doesn't mean it's "rebranded" anything.

>>7747291
Are you a Marxist? Anyway I have read some Marx and it is a rebrand. It's more than just class struggle. It's this ridiculous notion that everything and everyone must be a Utopian level of equal. It's also very collectivist, so anything the in group does, no matter how terrible will be brushed under the rug and anything the out group does, not matter how noble, will be demonized. This is exactly the kind of thing Lennin did. I know there are some pretty big differences between Marxism and how it was implemented by others but I guess feminism is the same. It says one thing and acts in a completely different way.

>>7747338
>It's this ridiculous notion that everything and everyone must be a Utopian level of equal.
That doesn't describe communism at all. Communism is public ownership of the means of production and abolishing of the class system. It isn't "make everyone equal hurr"
>It's also very collectivist, so anything the in group does, no matter how terrible will be brushed under the rug and anything the out group does, not matter how noble, will be demonized.
Read Wage Labour and Capital again, unless you haven't already read it.

>>7742535
Kind of the same way I see communism: Good in theory, a train wreck in practice because the people in power are corrupt and do anything they can to stay in power while using the theory of their beliefs as justification to persecute those who disagree with them.

>>7742621
and I just notice this post while writing this. high five

>>7747372
I was describing Marxism, that's why it isn't a good description of Communism. Marxism is very much about make everyone equal hurr.

I haven't gotten around to reading that one yet. Been meaning too but I'm too busy reading Guns Germs and Steel. But tell me that isn't collectivist.

It is utter cancer; I especially despise how feminism caused desecration of marriage via no-fault divorce (which is why I despise most homophobic social conservatives also since 'sanctity of marriage' was destroyed by feminism long ago). Hetero Jew women have caused more social harm than LGBT ever has.

>>7742712

Feminism is ploy heterosexual kikeses.

>>7747401
marxism is literally the philosophy that advocates communist society. it doesnt equalize the classes, it abolishes class as an institution. get it?

>>7746521
>women being able to vote, have jobs, and not be forced into literal sex slavery is a bad thing.

Compared to men be able to have the right to not be sent off to die protecting their country, have legal rights to their children, and not being forced into being an actual slave to pay for the benefits women are given by society.

Funny you don't hear feminists going on marches to end any of those things, because it might mean women would have to take responsibility for the life they are freely given.

>>7745689

>while ignoring oppressive ideologies outside of the West.

This is truly a bizarre facet of modern feminism; a 'FemFash' that was militantly anti-Islam would be laudable.

>>7747415
They aren't entirely the same though. And I know that. But that's nearly the same thing. Abolishing the classes and making the classes equal? I mean besides minor nit picky things it's hardly different.

yall are gay as fuck.

>>7746322

>plays on the chivalry and natural want to please women inherent in most men to twist society to benefit women more than men.

Which means gays --- at least theoretically --- should be immunized against feminism?

>>7746521

>women being able to vote

Has been a disaster.

>>7747440
Except feminists realize that they have no way to control gay males because if they revolt they can't just call them bitter virgins that can't get a girl to fuck them. So they advocate for gay rights as a secondary goal behind women's superiority. They do the same thing for anyone that isn't white, straight or male. They hold the oppression olympics regularly to see who deserves representation to appease their revolt.

>>7747408
I don't see why no-fault divorce is a bad thing. If people don't want to stay married, they simply shouldn't. We're shocked because we see that marriage is a lie, that many people find marriage unsatisfactory, but that's how it was all along, we were just hiring it.

>>7747421
>Compared to men be able to have the right to not be sent off to die protecting their country
Feminists have opposed military slavery from the beginning.

>have legal rights to their children
Sounds good in theory, but morally difficult to implement

>not being forced into being an actual slave to pay for those benefits.
Without those benefits, women LITERALLY had to sell themselves into sex slavery just to survive. There really isn't a way to eliminate slavery in that situation, short of monetary handouts from the government.

>>7747448
Only because you oppose policies that are in women's best interest. You don't understand democracy. The fact that you consider women voting a "disaster" is solid evidence WHY women being able to vote is so important.

>>7747553
>Feminists have opposed military slavery from the beginning.
White feathers say otherwise

>>7747672
That was only a particular group of feminists, much like the TERFs of today. And like their TERFs, their ideology is largely inconsistent with overall feminist belief. Apart from that group founded by a military officer, I'm not aware of feminists supporting the draft.

>>7742535
Cancer.

I've never understood their obsession with gay marriage.

I've always found it weird. considering how much they hate marriage.

>>7747553
>morally difficult to implement
Go on.

>>7745689
>Feminism attempts to liberate women from a system that oppressed them for millenia,
Women have always been the most privileged people in existence.

>>7751882
Being treated preferentially isn't privilege. If it was, pets, children, the elderly, disabled, and works of art would be privileged.

>>7751895
>Being treated preferentially isn't privilege.
How do you tell yourself things like this?

>>7742535
new or old? cuz new is cancer

>>7742535
It's a mating strategy.

It encourages women to be fat and hateful and tells them that they are beautiful.

The ones who buy into it are decidedly unattractive and so the ones who don't buy into it have better chances of finding a mate.

Also, it's a monetized industry.

Pretty ingenious way of preying on the weak and stupid, if you ask me.

>>7752136
You think old was somehow good?

>>7752228
Yeah, women shouldn't be able to work or vote.

>>7752288
Europe wouldn't be dying if women weren't able to vote. Well, you and your fellow sisters will get lots of opportunity to find masculine, dominating Arabs to mate with, which will be nice for you since you've successfully neutered white men, and you'll live the good life, I guess, with plenty of virtue signaling about how progressive you are and how diverse your society is. In the meantime, everything will slowly fall apart, all that the wealth that your forefathers built over generations, with the growing number of Muslims around you. And on day, you'll get the Sharia state, and you'll cry about the injustice of it all. This is not what you wanted! How could this have happened? Fuck you, and fuck women.

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>>7752500
too long, did not read

>>7752500
>Europe wouldn't be dying if women weren't able to vote
Would you be okay with being drafted in the military and sent on a suicide mission against ISIS? Because your reasoning is basically "rights don't matter, all that matters is the survival of Europe". If women's rights are subordinate to the well-being of Europe, your rights should be too.

>>7752874
You are presupposing that there is a "right" for women to vote.

>>7752887
That's how rights work. Either you presuppose them or they dont exist at all. Rights don't grow on trees, humans created the idea of human rights.

>>7752891
So stop making up harmful ones.

>>7752916
The "right" of men to not be subject to military slavery is also harmful survival of Europe. And keep in mind the idea that the survival of Europe is good is ITSELF a human-created idea.

>>7752953
I think men not being sent to their deaths is a bit different to allowing women to destroy the entire civilization.

>>7752500
>Europe wouldn't be dying if women weren't able to vote.
This argument makes me laugh my ass off and I don't know why

>>7752500
MRA cuck go do something useful with your life.

>>7753066
>being aware of women's political views makes you an "MRA cuck"
What did he mean by this?

Feminism is inherently sexist because its name implies one gender being disadvantaged in every area which is far from truth. Saying women should vote too is a one thing, saying men have to serve in army is another.

>>7752288
Women or the concept of gender itself shouldnt exist actually. We are at 21th century, we have to transtition into virtual reality.

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>>7752500
THIS
H
I
S

>>7753018
I disagree. Men being lazy cucks and letting Muslim armies take over could also be considered "destroying civilization".

>>7753090
Because you think someone not wanting to have sex with you means their political views are wrong and harmful.

>>7753109
>Saying women should vote too is a one thing, saying men have to serve in army is another.
The "standard feminist position", at least today, is that all adult citizens (excepting maybe severe mental illness or conviction of certain crimes) should be allowed to vote, and that the draft is wrong because it's essentially slavery.

>>7754239
This is why /lgbt/ will always have a special place in my heart.
Love /pol/ <3

>>7756203
>Because you think someone not wanting to have sex with you means their political views are wrong and harmful.
I like boys?

>>7742535
I think it's useful when it's discussing real, moderate, and concrete issues: access to medical care; access to birth control; access to education and work opportunities; and guaranteed maternity leave.

It's annoying and idiotic when it is used as a big tent to encompass things like the intersectionality of feminism and veganism/vegetarianism. Those are the kinds of "nth wave feminists" that everyone wants to set on fire.

>>7742535
Anyone who supports it ought to be deported to the Middle East.

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>>7742535
It is rebranded marxism. They only added a whole slew of new classes that are oppressed so tons of people can join in on the oppression olympics. While changing the scape goat slight, from the rich, to all white men.
They are using the same propaganda tactics as Lenin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Mau, Stalin, and well pretty much every tyrant in history since the printing press allowed mass communication.

>>7756483
This, Israel not counting.

>>7756203
>I disagree. Men being lazy cucks and letting Muslim armies take over could also be considered "destroying civilization".
This has only happened because western civilization has become incredibly feminized.

>>7759116
You're delusional if you think men actually want to go to the other side of the world so they can get blown up.

>>7762178
Reading comprehension is hard. No one said anything about going to the middle east to fight. But the highly feminized male European population has no desire to prevent their culture's destruction at the hands of migrants

>>7745755
ahahahahha oh you western cunts are hilarious there's nobody more comfortable and looked-after on the fucking planet than western women

>>7762382
What actions do you suggest be taken "to prevent their culture's destruction"?

>>7762415
Once again, that is not the definition of privilege. Because by that logic, toddlers would be more privileged by children. Which is clearly an absurd statement.

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>>7742535
Bring back the draft, only enforce it for women

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>>7762496

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>>7762516
Why not?

>>7762477
Stop being accommodating and nurturing; cut down on their benefits. Stop telling them they don't need to integrate or even learn the native language. Stop showing lenience to them when they commit crimes; jail time and deportation if they continue to disrespect the law of the land.

If they only respect a show of force, bring it to them.

I think it's an important political movement that benefits both genders. Like every movement ever, it has its share of loonies, but ultimately most feminists are actually sensible people who just want to make our world a better place to live in. Of course, 4chan being 4chan, aforementioned loonies are all we ever talk about, and so people have ended up with a very twisted and negative view on what feminism is about.

I don't think that many people here actually believe gender is a valid reason to discriminate against someone, or that deviating from gender roles is something that should be frowned upon. Men shouldn't be ridiculed for "acting like women", nor should rape be considered justified under any circumstances (as a man, I find it insulting how some people think I can't help but rape a woman if she's wearing revealing clothes). Hell, even the dreaded alimony payments would not exists if women and men were considered equal.

It's mostly just common sense.

>>7762692
>but ultimately most feminists are actually sensible people who just want to make our world a better place to live in.
[citation needed]

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a spook made of spooks.

>>7745689
Nazism was pretty bad. Fascism however, is really good at mobilizing a country and rebuilding it.

Fascism gets too much bad cred, Nazism gets what it deserves

>>7762725
I'd rather live free in ruins than live in a spectacularly built-up fascist country.

>>7762477
>Hmm I'm a woman with a comfortable, cosseted life with all the support and sympathy in the world
>What shall I do with all my free time besides shoveling cake into my fat disgusting face
>I know I think I'll go online and whine about how hard I have it and how men's lives are so easy

>>7762834
For the Nth time, "having it easy" is not privilege.

>>7762845
Keep shoveling that cake hamgalaxy, the only struggle in your life is the stairs

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>>7762845
Right, that makes total sense...

>*snicker*

>>7762857
>Keep shoveling that cake hamgalaxy,
"You're wrong because you're fat!" Grow up and get a real argument, or fuck right off.

>the only struggle in your life is the stairs
Nice ableism retard.

>>7762863
>any idea that doesn't immediately make sense to a normie must not be true
I guess nuclear physics and multivariate calculus are nonsense too?

>>7762857
>>7762863
Any so-called benefits women get from patriarchy are male privilege. How is this hard to understand?

>>7762882
A more useful term is benevolent sexism. It occurs BECAUSE of male privilege, but saying it is itself a form of male privilege is kind of silly.

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>>7762872
>I'm not an idiot!
>I'm like a nuclear physicist of social justice!
>it's too complicated for you normies!
kek. sure babe, whatever you say.

western women are the most privileged, entitled creatures on the planet.

>>7742535

Cancer that not even the faggots here believe. Shoo shoo idiotic ideology.

>>7762864
>get a real argument

You first tubs

>Nice ableism retard.

Irony, thy name is fat bitch

>>7762882
>How is this hard to understand?

The part where privilege doesn't extend to your pampered, cushy lives because you have a rancid hamwallet somewhere in all that lard

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>>7742602
>>7742542
>>7742621
>>7742646
>>7742652
>>7742656
>>7742679
>>7742712


Still forced to run away like the cowards you are I see:

https://thinkprogress.org/heritage-religious-freedom-report-f44db43e221b#.3xvnfkp8v

>>7762894
>>7762904
Guys, I'm like 95% sure that Anon was being sarcastic...

>>7762894
The entire concept of privilege is silly and nebulous. There's not a single right men possess that women don't in the west.

>>7762895
>can't think beyond 1 layer of abstraction
>repeats the same claims over and over again
>calls people more knowledgeable than them idiots

>>7762904
>You first tubs
I already presented the argument. Do you seriously believe that 5 year olds are more privileged than adults? They basically don't have to do anything, everything is done for them. So by your reasoning, they're more "privileged" then adults, despite the fact that they have no autonomy and basically zero control or ownership of resources.

>Irony, thy name is fat bitch
*whoosh*

>>7762931
>There's not a single right men possess that women don't in the west.
Having rights is not equality. In 1910 gay and trans people had the same rights straight people did, so I guess the LGBT movement was superflous.

>>7762932
You're the one that keeps saying women are like children, fats.
>no autonomy
If you lack the ability to self-govern your own body it's probably because the sheer size of it necessitates several dozen elected officials

>>7762949
>You're the one that keeps saying women are like children, fats.
In their lack of privilege, they are.

>If you lack the ability to self-govern your own body it's probably because the sheer size of it necessitates several dozen elected officials
Even women who are severely underweight aren't granted any more autonomy than normal or overweight women.

>>7762949
No, what they are saying is being treated like a child does not imply privilege but rather the opposite.

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>>7762957
>men are subject to forced military service in times of crisis
>women complain about autonomy because... well, I have no idea why, actually

>>7762894
I'm sorry but your post sounds like internalized misogyny to me.

>>7762969
I can't even how sexist this post is.

>>7762969
Remind me again when was the last time a first world country used the draft?

>>7762983
Could you elaborate?

>>7762942
Okay, why is the modern discourse framed in such a way that feminism is still about equal rights? If equality is the end game of feminism but equal rights does not necessitate equality what is the win condition, what makes it equal? Who determines it's equal in a world where asymmetrical rights are needed to establish equality?

>>7762957
>In their lack of privilege, they are.

Or maybe their refusal to ever take responsibility for everything and blame everything on this mystical privilege that can never apply to them

>Even women who are severely underweight aren't granted any more autonomy than normal or overweight women.

Maybe autonomy is possible for women who grow the fuck up, eh super chunk?

>>7762959
If you want to stop being treated like a child how about you grow up?

>>7762995
There are first world countries right NOW that have forced military service, in fucking peace time.

Tell me again about the autonomy women don't have.

>>7762969
>men are subject to forced military service in times of crisis
That's another thing feminism opposes.

>>7763011
If a feminist actually knows about that and still goes on about male privilege, she deserves to be smacked. Of course most feminists just run their mouths and don't know shit.

>>7763004
Equal rights are a neccessary, but not sufficient condition for true gender equality. You definitely can't have gender equality when women are categorically forbidden from partaking in the political process or owning property, but equal rights in a legal sense doesn't mean you're truly given the same options as men. And it's not about "asymettrical rights", it's not that women need MORE rights than men (at least not in the long run), it's that feminism now has moved BEYOND legal rights.

>>7763006
>Or maybe their refusal to ever take responsibility for everything and
Why should women be expected to take responsibility when patriarchy disincentivizes it so much? A woman choosing to take on responsibility is considered to be "insecure and pretending to be a man" and a joke.

>this mystical privilege that can never apply to them
Individual women can be privileged. But privilege is something that is never gained for being a woman (except in a matriarchal society, which really doesn't exist on Earth in any meaningful sense).

>Maybe autonomy is possible for women who grow the fuck up, eh super chunk?
Autonomy is not something that you can opt into if it's denied to you, the best you can do is play make believe and pretend the trivial amount of autonomy you're granted is actually something meaningful.

And could you stop projecting your fat fetish on me? It's getting kind of creepy.

>If you want to stop being treated like a child how about you grow up?
How about men stop acting like autonomous "grown up" women are unnatural and a danger to society? Feminism is about helping women "grow up", and that's exactly why so many men oppose it. Apparently they think for women "growing up" means accepting that men are always right and giving up all autonomy.

>>7763011
What is one thing feminists have ever done about it?

In WW1 feminists tried to shame men into conscripting.

The Equal Rights Amendment was cancelled because feminists realized it would mean the draft would have to either apply to women too or be ended.

Thanks feminists! Cisters really sticking together!

>>7763037
>privilege is something that is never gained for being a woman
Women are the most privileged class in Western society and always have been.

This is the reason feminism cannot function except by dishonesty.

>>7763008
>There are first world countries right NOW that have forced military service, in fucking peace time.
If it's in peacetime, what's the issue? How is it any worse than say paying taxes, or mandatory education?

>Tell me again about the autonomy women don't have.
Women are told that wanting a career means they're broken and that they're a failure at life. And they're told that they should give up bodily autonomy because "the ends justify the means" when men totally freak out if someone suggests they pay a slight bit more in taxes to provide for the less well off members of society.

>>7763024
Male privilege does not mean nothing bad ever happens to you. It's all relative, there are groups with less privilege than the average women, but it doesn't mean that women should be regarded as a privileged class.

>>7763058
>>There are first world countries right NOW that have forced military service, in fucking peace time.
>If it's in peacetime, what's the issue? How is it any worse than say paying taxes, or mandatory education?
Feminists confirmed for supporting forced labor by men and somehow convincing themselves this isn't sexist and their exception from it, which they literally fought into law, isn't privilege.

>>7763058
>what's the issue?
We were comparing male and female autonomy.

>Women are told
>And they're told
So you're not actually FORCED to do jack shit, people just say annoying things to you. Boo hoo.

>It's all relative
Seems like it is all whinging.

>>7763037
In what ways do women not have the same opportunities as men?

>>7763085
Glass ceiling and education discouraging them to choose career paths.

>>7763045
>In WW1 feminists tried to shame men into conscripting.
That was before feminism had really developed a complete, internally-consistent ideology; at that point the movement was basically exclusively focused on getting the right to vote. And the "white feather" campaign wasn't even the feminists idea, it was the military leadership that decided to use them to help recruitment efforts, and the only reason they sought women for that campaign was that having men go around shaming other men for not fighting would look hypocritical.

>The Equal Rights Amendment was cancelled because feminists realized it would mean the draft would have to either apply to women too or be ended.
Actually it failed because of a campaign organized by conservative anti-feminist Phyllis Schlafly, based on fears that it would erode traditional gender roles. She did bring up the draft issue, however calling her a feminist is ridiculous, since she believes that a woman cannot refuse to consent to sex with her husband. And feminists generally wouldn't have a problem with a GENDER-EQUAL draft, because they consider it to be slavery in the first place and something that should be abolished. They wouldn't want women to be drafted, but they'd have no problem with it being eliminated entirely, and if extending the draft to women would help eliminate it, many would consider that acceptable.

>>7763049
Repeating yourself over and over again doesn't make it true. Tell me, do you really think that a 5 year old kid is more privileged than Bill Gates? Because that's what your ridiculous definition of privilege says, if you're willing to apply it consistently.

>>7763108
>Glass ceiling
If you can't get the promotion you want in your company, you have the freedom to start your own business and be the boss. Plenty of women do.

>discouraging
This again? People saying annoying things to you is not oppression.

>>7763110
>And feminists generally wouldn't have a problem with a GENDER-EQUAL draft, because they consider it to be slavery in the first place and something that should be abolished.
Funny, you were just defending anti-male conscription >>7763058

>>7763077
>So you're not actually FORCED to do jack shit, people just say annoying things to you. Boo hoo.
"Forced" isn't a binary yes or no sort of thing. It's a matter of degree. The draft is a social pressure, just like women avoiding serious careers is - the only difference being that it's strong enough that many people are willing to use violent force against those who refuse to comply. And there are men who feel the exact same way about women who reject gender conformity - that if a woman refuses to "perform as a woman", that it is justified to shoot her, or crack her head open. All "force" is just an extension of social pressure, the difference is QUANTITATIVE, not qualitative.

>>7763117
>If you can't get the promotion you want in your company, you have the freedom to start your own business and be the boss. Plenty of women do.
But not everyone is well suited to be a boss.

>This again? People saying annoying things to you is not oppression.
People taking actions that make your life harder is oppression however. You need to stop thinking that "saying things" occurs in a vacuum and is never accompanied by effective action.

>>7763119
It's more that, until a war starts and people start dying en masse, it's not something people feel pressured to get worked up about. I mean, most people don't care much about children starving in Africa (but WOULD care if it was their family that was starving), does that mean their worldview says that people starving is a good thing?

>>7763120
>"Forced" isn't a binary yes or no sort of thing
Actually, it is.

>The draft is a social pressure
Sweeatheart, the law is very VERY different from social pressure.

>>7763120
>The draft is a social pressure, just like women avoiding serious careers is
How is being sent to prison unless you let yourself be enslaved the same thing as deciding being a housewife is more pleasant than earning your family's keep yourself?

>>7763138
>Who cares men are being forced to lose a year of their lives to the draft, we have real issues to deal with like making sure there are quotas to stop men getting into corporate boards when there is a less well qualified woman around

>>7747241
Da truth

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>>7762692
t. sociopathic, misandrist female that lies on the internet

>>7763108
>Glass ceiling
>education discouraging
Women are free to choose to pursue almost any occupation (sex work for a gay male clientele and infantry excluded) in the west. Women not choosing these paths is not inherently a problem.

>>7762845
This is one of the dumbest fucking posts I've ever read on 4chan.

Yes, you have the privilege of NOT HAVING TO DEAL WITH VERY DIFFICULT PROBLEMS MEN FACE EVERY DAY THAT OFTEN LEAD TO SUICIDE, YOU STUPID CUNT.

>>7763141
>Actually, it is.
Suppose someone makes a credible threat to kill your wife, unless you give them 5 million dollars (out of your total wealth of 7 million). Are they FORCING you to give up your money? No, they're just giving you a difficult choice. You have to decide how much your wife is worth to you, either way, the choice is yours, you're not being forced to do anything.

>Sweeatheart, the law is very VERY different from social pressure.
The law is just materialized social pressure. People wouldn't use deadly force to enforce the law unless they truly believed it was right to conform to those social pressures. Disarm the law, and it's merely a bunch of people saying words you disagree with.

>>7763145
It's not about "deciding". It's about having options closed off to you, when there's no reason for them to be. Society is determined to convince women that a prettified form of sex slavery is better for them than being independent.

>>7763154
Yeah, those children starving in Africa aren't a problem either, right? Getting a new car every few years and being able to watch TV are much more important, you know?

>>7764241
>Yes, you have the privilege of NOT HAVING TO DEAL WITH VERY DIFFICULT PROBLEMS MEN FACE EVERY DAY THAT OFTEN LEAD TO SUICIDE, YOU STUPID CUNT.
So do toddlers. You seriously think that makes them privileged? Despite having zero real autonomy?

>>7762995
>Remind me again when was the last time a first world country used the draft?
Can you even fathom how frightening the draft is, even though it hasn't been in effect?

We could go to fucking war with Russia, China, or Iran any fucking day now. I am already goddamn 30, but I could still be drafted to fight. Just because we haven't had the draft, doesn't mean that it still can't haunt men. I read shit in the news and I fear for my life because of my gender—you will never understand that.

Living your life knowing that when shit hits the fan, the other gender will go die for you, is a pretty fucking humongous mental privilege that women don't even begin to appreciate.

>>7764262
>So do toddlers. You seriously think that makes them privileged? Despite having zero real autonomy?
I think your being intellectually dishonest here, because toddlers do not have mental acuity for autonomy. Women have said acuity, yet are still pampered and coddled like toddlers.

>>7764303
That poster honestly makes it sound like women in the west are treated the same as in the Islamic world.

>>7764250
>Suppose someone makes a credible threat to kill your wife, unless you give them 5 million dollars (out of your total wealth of 7 million). Are they FORCING you to give up your money? No, they're just giving you a difficult choice. You have to decide how much your wife is worth to you, either way, the choice is yours, you're not being forced to do anything.
Uh, yes that is being forced under threat of violence.

>The law is just materialized social pressure. People wouldn't use deadly force to enforce the law unless they truly believed it was right to conform to those social pressures. Disarm the law, and it's merely a bunch of people saying words you disagree with.
Okay but as of right now the law is not disarmed, men really are under threat of violence to do compulsory military service. Women don't have that kind of problem. Men have less autonomy than women.

>>7764276
>Living your life knowing that when shit hits the fan, the other gender will go die for you, is a pretty fucking humongous mental privilege that women don't even begin to appreciate.
But they're not actually dying for the women of their country, they're dying for the government's political objectives. If China attacks the US mainland, it will be with nukes, in which case draft or not makes no difference. Whenever people are drafted to go fight overseas, it's not because the women at home are in danger.

>>7764303
>Women have said acuity, yet are still pampered and coddled like toddlers.
And that's what feminists oppose, that's why they're fighting for female autonomy.
>>7764325
>Uh, yes that is being forced under threat of violence.
But the violence isn't against the one making the decision. If they instead kidnapped some random person I'd never seen before, and said they would kill them if I didn't send money, is that being forced?

>>7742535
I have my reservations about it. Third wave feminism is nothing but a meme.

t. feminine, andro gay guy

>>7764360
>Whenever people are drafted to go fight overseas, it's not because the women at home are in danger
Tell that to Britain in 1941.

>>Women have said acuity, yet are still pampered and coddled like toddlers.
>And that's what feminists oppose, that's why they're fighting for female autonomy.
How does being pampered hurt your autonomy?

>But the violence isn't against the one making the decision. If they instead kidnapped some random person I'd never seen before, and said they would kill them if I didn't send money, is that being forced?
No, obviously not. If it's your spouse you have no other choice but to comply. If it is a stranger you don't care.

>>7764250
>form of sex slavery
You mean like the real slavery threatened against men?

>Yeah, those children starving in Africa aren't a problem either, right? Getting a new car every few years and being able to watch TV are much more important, you know?
Hypocritical whataboutism from a first-world feminist.

>>7762995
>>7764276
>even though it hasn't been in effect?
Many first world countries do still conscript men. Even if they aren't sent to war, millions of years of men's lives are taken from them.

Finland, Austria, Switzerland, Germany until 2011, Netherlands until 1997, Russia, South Korea, Greece, France until 2001, Denmark, and I can't find data on several more European countries.

>>7764250
>Are they FORCING you to give up your money? No, they're just giving you a difficult choice.
So if a woman is threatened into sex, it's not forced sex, just a difficult choice?

Unusual take on rape from a feminist.

>>7764360
>But they're not actually dying for the women of their country, they're dying for the government's political objectives.
Women are the majority of voters and frequently get into office through affirmative action and quotas because of their gender. So it is literally women sending men to their deaths.

>>7764372
>Tell that to Britain in 1941.
Even then Britain had zero chance of being invaded, Operation Sealion was a joke.

>How does being pampered hurt your autonomy?
Men pamper women because they consider them to be basically children. They think they are obligated to keep them away from responsibility.

>No, obviously not. If it's your spouse you have no other choice but to comply. If it is a stranger you don't care.
Why? What if I don't consider my spouse to be worth more than 5 million dollars?

>>7764380
>You mean like the real slavery threatened against men?
The implicit deal of marriage is that a man provides for a woman in exchange for her providing him with sex. It is sex slavery; if the woman refuses him sex, the man is free to stop supporting her.

>Hypocritical whataboutism from a first-world feminist.
So feminists are bad people for not fighting against the draft of first world men, but you're not a bad person for doing nothing to help people starving in Africa?

>>7763110
>Actually it failed because of a campaign organized by conservative anti-feminist Phyllis Schlafly
Wrong, many feminists were against it. Schlafly was only presented as the main person stopping it afterwards by feminists who realized how bad it would look that they literally opposed equality legislation.

You will be aware that feminists never pushed for an equal rights amendment again and that the feminist laws they have created have violated that supposed principle of theirs of equality.

>>7764393
So do you think most heterosexual sex before the modern age was rape? Because women had a similar "difficult choice": either submit to sex with a man, or die because no one would support them and society did not allow them to support themselves.

>>7764405
The vast majority of government officials are men. How many members of the presidential cabinet are women?

>>7764418
>Even then Britain had zero chance of being invaded, Operation Sealion was a joke.
British women still died when the British men in the Battle of Britain could not prevent the Luftwaffe bombers.

>Men pamper women because they consider them to be basically children. They think they are obligated to keep them away from responsibility.
You did not answer my question. How does this hurt your autonomy? You can refuse the coddling if you want to.

>Why? What if I don't consider my spouse to be worth more than 5 million dollars?
I am finding this hypothetical increasingly tiresome. Either the hostage is someone you care about, in which case the kidnapper has forced your hand, or the hostage isn't, in which case the plot fails (but the intent was the same)

>>7764418
>Men pamper women because they consider them to be basically children. They think they are obligated to keep them away from responsibility.
This is just proof that feminists don't understand men.

>>7764418
>feminist literally arguing that women choosing to be wives instead of supporting themselves is worse than men being sent to their deaths
Are you actually Hillary Clinton?

>>7764428
>Wrong, many feminists were against it. Schlafly was only presented as the main person stopping it afterwards by feminists who realized how bad it would look that they literally opposed equality legislation.
Care to provide a source for these claims?

>>7764459
I don't even think it's a woman at all. Women don't know (or care) about how achievable Operation Sealion was. It's a troll.

>>7764448
>How does this hurt your autonomy? You can refuse the coddling if you want to.
Women's opportunities in the job market are limited compared to those of men. Women MUST accept coddling unless they want to go through life at a severe disadvantage.

>I am finding this hypothetical increasingly tiresome. Either the hostage is someone you care about, in which case the kidnapper has forced your hand, or the hostage isn't, in which case the plot fails (but the intent was the same)
Okay then. What if I DID care about my wife, and she was dying of disease, and the only way to save her would be to kill someone (say they were the only person in possession of the cure and weren't willing to give it up). Would my hand be forced in that scenario? Choosing to let my wife die isn't really a valid option in that scenario, according to you.

>>7764458
Not an argument.

>>7764470
You managed to google who Schlafly was but read literally nothing past "anti-feminist"?

>>7742535
feminism is sometimes needed. even today in the west some of their rights are constantly challenged and messed with, like accessible birth control and abortions.

>>7764476
>women shouldn't have a basic knowledge of modern Western history
your misogyny is showing uwu

>>7764505
Tits or gtfo.

>>7764497
I read plenty about her. I pointed out above that she thinks married women shouldn't be allowed to refuse sex with their husband. If you think that's a feminist position, you might as well claim that an orange is a type of marine mammal.

>>7764508
fuck off

>>7764514
>If you think that's a feminist position
Are you trolling or actually too stupid to remember what you're talking about?

>>7764494
>Not an argument.
It is when feminists throw around these kind of falsehoods haphazardly. Feminists do not understand men yet like to make inane statements about men

>>7764547
What's your point then? Either you're saying she's a feminist, or her supporters are feminists. Neither makes much sense.

And I did start out by asking for a source, which you have yet to provide, instead choosing to make "subtle" attacks on my critical thinking skills.

>>7764557
Try reading the conversation.

>>7764553
>Feminists do not understand men yet like to make inane statements about men
Then surely men can explain themselves to us. Why are there so many more men in the top positions of business and government then women?

>>7764567
Try posting a source.

>>7764568
Men take risks.

>>7764579
And then complain that having to pay the price for those risks is misandry. Maybe they should stop taking so many risks?

>>7764590
>And then complain that having to pay the price for those risks is misandry
A small minority will do that. Men generally know what happens if they fail, and know that that failure doesn't mean they can't try again
>Maybe they should stop taking so many risks?
And why should men settle for ordinary when they can try to shoot for greatness?

>>7764616
>And why should men settle for ordinary when they can try to shoot for greatness?
Because the risk has a negative side (which non-risk lacks, otherwise risk would not be risk) which means the expected outcome is no better than non-risk.

>>7764641
That is a strategy that only works if one is content with staying at the bottom.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hL99eTKil8

>>7763058
>Women are told that wanting a career means they're broken and that they're a failure at life. And they're told that they should give up bodily autonomy because "the ends justify the means" when men totally freak out if someone suggests they pay a slight bit more in taxes to provide for the less well off members of society.

And men are told if they don't have high paying stable careers and they don't have kids they are failures as men and embarrassments. Boy howdy I sure do love this privilege. Not that you'd understand anything about privilege, having to lift under your folds to wash the fungus out in between pallets of cupcakes and whatnot. How difficult your life is.

>>7763058
>but it doesn't mean that women should be regarded as a privileged class.

Of course not, how could you continue to bitch while enjoying more freedom and support than any other people on the face of the planet you obese sack of cunts

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Women without dicks are worthless.

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>>7762692
>that benefits both genders

>>7764692
Taking risk is illogical if you are NOT willing to end up at the bottom.

>>7766368
>>7766373
For the last time, fuck ALL THE WAY off with your fat fetish. Nobody cares about how hard you get from thinking about fat women, get lost you disgusting professional virgin.

OP IS A FAGGOT!!!

>>7769082
Calm down landwhale your heart is working overtime as it is

>>7766389
No they aren't. Plus, they can always wear a strap on.

Idpol is horseshit, and feminism, especially modern, liberal feminism, is a supremacist movement with cultlike tendencies. I was a feminist at one point, and I think the ideology has salvageable aspects, but on the whole, it causes more problems than it solves.

>>7769120
Go fuck yourself

>>7769082
Not for men, being a man necessitates risk taking. Historically men didn't have the luxury of playing it safe like women; not when 17 women passed their genes for every man. Only the risk takers that fathered children.

>>7769248
>not when 17 women passed their genes for every man.
wtf are you even talking about

>>7769256
In the ancient world, only a small minority of males were able to pass their genes compared to women. A ratio of 17:1 in the favor of women. Women could afford to play it safe and wait for a prospective mate, men couldn't and had to take risks in order to be noticed by females.

I just don't understand how women can see that blacks and gays are oppressed and understand what oppression looks like and they say that women are also oppressed. It just doesn't make sense.

>>7769279
I'd like to see a source on that figure.

>>7769927
http://genome.cshlp.org/content/25/4/459.full
>However, the Y chromosome plot suggested a reduction at around 8–4 kya (Supplemental Fig. S4B; Supplemental Table S4) when the female Ne is up to 17-fold higher than the male Ne (Supplemental Fig. S5).

Wanna fuck w a feminist? Ask them two things;

Does feminism have a monopoly on gender equality?

Is a man more likely to rape a woman than she is to lie about it?

>>7766389
t. worthless chaser

>>7769123
>strap on

Pleb detected

>>7770314
Stay mad, baby factory

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>>7742535
>Sweden has the first feminist government
>It's the rape capital of Europe
>Half the women are afraid to go out alone at night

The most homophobic people I ever met in life are women and feminists.

Recently a trans friend was humiliated by a woman feminazi, almost committed suicide.

>>7771616
who are u quoting?

>>7747241
Because modern feminism is just a political tool for politicians to control people and gain support for themselves.

Think about it, feminists spin all sorts of tales about gender wage gap and other bullshit and then democrats ride in like fucking knights in shining armor, giving lip service about "fixing" things and parading a female presidential canditate around trying to fish votes from the fools and while everyone is praising them and paying attention to their "progressive" policies, they can do what they actually want to do for their own gain, such as bomb other countries.

Being in good close relations with the Muslims like Saudi-Arabia is on their political for some reason, so they won't do anything to piss them off and so the feminists follow suit. To the elite it doesn't matter if all the gays and women get killed or raped, as long as they are themselves safe and gain more power and wealth.

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>>7771794
>Saudi-Arabia

lol don't be silly, only white men can be oppressive to women. Saudis aren't privileged enough to do that. There's nothing wrong with Saudi-Arabia. They're not being sexist shitlords and enforcing rape culture like white guys with their comics and video games.

>>7771813
You are right, I am going to kill myself right now for being a white man.

>>7742621
>In theory, it works. When practiced...not so much.

Fuck this meme.

>>7771834
The sin of white skin and of having a penis cannot be absolved anon

>>7771813
This would explain why arch-feminist Clinton was funded by them.

>>7780809
Also why the Women's March was directed by a woman who is a Sharia Law apologist.

>>7771715
a source you'll never bother check out yourself

actual reality

>>7771794
>For some reason progressives/democrats/liberals want to be in good relations with Muslims.

The best way to combat ISIS/Radical Islamic Terrorism/Whatever You Want To Call It is through firm alliances with Muslims. This goes for both international alliances and domestic relations with local communities.

International allies provide a more unified military offensive, provides easier access to tactically-advantageous locations/mobility through Muslim-majority countries, and disrupts ISIS's central narrative for recruitment. It's harder to radicalize Muslim youth into believing you're saving Islam from the western world when you're constantly fighting other Muslims and their western allies.

Locally, having strong relationships with Muslim communities improves efforts to identify and prevent homegrown radicals.

Alternatively, if we throw all Muslims under the bus with ISIS, then we suddenly have a much, much larger threat and significantly weaker means of confronting them.

And none of this even scratches the surface of religious freedom etc., which is another reason progressives/liberals/feminists are jumping on board to their defense.

>>7771813
>>7771794
Saudi Arabia is a trade partner you fucking retards.

Having a trade partner doesn't means that you support their ideology. Brazil is a trade partner to China, doesn't means that we don't believe in minimum wage, global warming and health care.

>>7742535
3rd wave is a disgusting hate mob that believes in fairy tales. It's trivialised what 1st and 2nd wave actually accomplished.

>>7781754
Link? I tried actualreality.com but there's nothing there.

>>7782007
>women shouldn't have the right to vote
>muh sacred oppressive society!
>muh traditional family!
>muh cuckservatives!
Stopped reading there.

>>7783187
>loads of well-explained and well-argued points
>"Stopped reading there."
Typical feminist.

>>7783300
I precisely explained why they're not well-argued. Their based on obsolete memes, which the author assumes are good, yet fails to provide an actual argument why. Xe's just another spooked idiot who's happy to keep on cucking xyrself till the end of time.

>>7783339
>muh <thing i don't like>
>an explanation of why anything is not well-argued
No. The only meme is your flawed implication there is something wrong in the post.

You have not pointed out a single flaw in the post's logic.

>>7782938
Feminists are quick to demonize western men. The same men that have allowed feminists to have a platform, to have an insane amount of clout and docile enough to not retaliate. But suspiciously silent when it comes to the Middle East where women are actually oppressed and what they say about western men actually holds true to Middle Eastern men. Feminists are often the first ones to engage in Islamic apologetics.

>>7784686
>The same men that have allowed feminists to have a platform, to have an insane amount of clout and docile enough to not retaliate.
Cuckoldry.

>>7784719
If what feminists say about western men were true, then feminism would never have existed.

>>7784232
I did though. It claims that stability of society, traditionalism, and conservative values are good, without explaining why.

>>7784686
>>7784719
>>7784766
This is bullshit - you're oversimplifying a complex situation to the point of no longer adding anything useful to the discussion.

>>7784766
More's the pity.

>>7784786
Kind of like >>7784781 ?

>>7784686
Western feminists aren't as focused on middle-eastern sexism because they don't have any influence on that culture. The men in Saudi Arabia don't give a fuck about protesters parading in a completely different country.

Do women have it worse in countries like Saudi Arabia than they do in Australia or the USA? Absolutely. But it comes down to choosing a battle with realistic gains to be made.

That's also not to suggest that feminism is completely non-existent in these countries.

>Feminists are often the first to engage in Islamic apologies.

That's true, in the sense that they're often the first to defend Muslim women's right to practice their religion. I've never seen feminists defending shit like the execution of rape victims, or the suppression of educating females.

>>7784817
>But it comes down to choosing a battle with realistic gains to be made.
They don't give a shit about women having their genitals cut in third world countries when they could be demanding quotas in academia or calling for male-only frats to be banned.

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>>7784786
It's actually not a complex situation it is that simple. Feminists will loudly proclaim that we live in a society that hates women or we live in a rape culture or that 1 in 4 women will get raped in university (which would mean that campuses are worse than the Congo), yet they're allowed to say that without any retaliation and yet they are believed by men who proceed to feel guilty. And here's this alien culture being imported that actually has these problems and yet there's silence. Where were the feminists during the Cologne attacks last year? Absent and when they came back they said speaking out would only encourage racism.
>>7784817
>they don't have any influence on that culture
Yes they do nigga, that culture is being imported wholesale into Europe as we speak.

>>7784830
>Feminists are hypocrites if they don't focus primarily on human rights violations in countries/governments they have no influence over and ignore the domestic solutions they can actually shape.

This is kinda like criticizing an LGBT advocate for protesting against conversion therapy in their state but not organizing any rallies on LGBT death penalties in other countries. People should be encouraged to be activists for causes they can achieve.

>>7784878
>They can influence other countries because immigrants are coming in.

There's a difference between influencing immigrants and influencing foreign governments.

>>7742535
Feminism! When women support each other!

*Unless you're white and attractive.

>>7784974
Feminists aren't hypocrites (for that reason). They are simply enemies of equality.

>>7742535
In theory intersectional feminism is great but too many people are being aggro and stuffing it down people's throats which just prompts backlash (ex: see trump) if handled better we could make an actual impact but a very small number of people are woke enough to do it

>>7785221
>In theory intersectional feminism is great
Communism has never been put into practice.
Fascism works on paper.

>>7785247
This implies that every real world application is bad and that's untrue
I know a good chick of intersectional feminists who are doing it right aka not hating men for existing not victimizing anyone and not focusing on oppression but rather on solutions and change.
There are just a lot of people pretending to embody the movement but in actuality are misguided
Kinda like westborough baptist church and Christianity

>>7785285
>I know a good chick of intersectional feminists who are doing it right aka not hating men for existing not victimizing anyone and not focusing on oppression but rather on solutions and change.
I believe you honestly think that, but there is no one person in the world capable of spotting ever evil a particular feminist does.

>>7785310
I think at its core the movement isnt evil are with the right mindset you aren't going to produce any evil. with the right intention and practice its a great thing for change but i certainly agree that feminism as a whole has done a lot of harm which is really unfortunate

>>7785318
>I think at its core the movement isnt evil are with the right mindset you aren't going to produce any evil.
I'm sure communist and fascist sympathizers would say exactly the same with the very same honesty and genuine belief.

>>7742535
These threads are always retarded. Feminism just means "women should have the right to vote" and despite all the assblasted whining about what that's bad and destroying the Superior Sryan Race or some shit in this fucking thread no that's good, everyone should have the same rights. There are asshole feminists though like there are asshole MRAs though the ideas behind each are perfectly good and needed and they feed off of each other getting more and more angry and bitter at the "other team" or some shit. But complaints are usually strawmanning for example "I hate feminists because they love Islam so much" as if no people who believe in equal rights dislike Islam or all religion. I mean "people on the Internet are assholes about it" if it invalidates ideas invalidates all ideas including "I like ice cream."

For example the Nazis on this site are some of the biggest retards on the Internet and make their claims of supremacy sound retarded. The Ubermench is not a fat nerd living in his mom's basement crying about how girls are mean to him whose only "accomplishment" is sharing a skin tone with other people who accomplished things. So even if some ideas have merit they just look like fucking idiots. Online communities are the worst places to discuss or form any worthwhile ideas they are shit echo chambers and hugboxes making up crap at best and I mean no matter what your faggoty little agenda is.

>>7742535
feminism will eventually turn on me when it runs out of other shit to eat

fuck raising demons I'm not about that petkeeper class bullshit

>>7785337
>>7785247

"People should have equal rights" is pretty far away from the other two's really specific ideas about the function of government. They're not really comparable.

>>7786049
>"People should have equal rights" is pretty far away from feminism's really specific ideas about female entitlement. They're not really comparable.

>>7786029
>Feminism just means "women should have the right to vote"
Okay, then why does feminism still exist?

>>7784878
>And here's this alien culture being imported that actually has these problems and yet there's silence.

Decades ago, before anyone here even knew or cared what the Taliban was (because it was before 9/11), I read Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale which was (thinly veiled) about the Taliban as there was a lot of discussion about the problems with Islamic theocracies among academic feminists and feminist groups working with women's groups overseas. It was only some and not all feminist groups but there were definitely doing a lot before some conservatives jumped in to concern troll about the awful lots of women in such countries while not actually doing anything to help especially that gets your elbows dirty.

Most people on this site are very young; maybe you just don't remember. After 9/11, women's groups in such countries weren't happy about the U.S. invading because they didn't think it would improve their lives (it often hasn't, and many died) and were afraid it would spawn more radicalism in response (and it has). While I don't really have the solution to these problems women living in those countries wanting change to come from within makes sense just because others trying to come in and impose their values is often impractical and the U.S. didn't really care about helping them, just its own interests. Just like most people who say "the poor Muslim women" don't care about Muslim women just the soapbox they're on.

>>7786094
>most people who say "the poor Muslim women" don't care about Muslim women just the soapbox they're on.
Like your academic feminists of the 70's.

>>7786073

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/feminism

"Equality of the sexes" that's it. I don't care what any dipshits online self-proclaimed "feminist" or not says it means. I can say that "feminist" means "likes grape jelly on toast" but the word comes from where it comes from even if people have decided it means a billion different things based on fighting with people online.

>>7786085
>Okay, then why does feminism still exist?
There are plenty of countries on Earth where women don't have equal rights under the law, movements to support women in those countries and consisting of women in those countries will be around until they have equal rights under the law too.

Groups also exist here though because people want a tribe to give them meaning and to feel special though, it's really the same reason Stormfront exists, or ISIS exist, people want to belong. On one end it can be as innocent as a social group but tribalism easily turns people into batshit raving assholes who rage against anyone they see as different. Sports team fans and fans of tv shows do this too, as you see plenty on this site's other boards. It doesn't really matter what the group initially formed around the douchebaggery and even violence happens for any and all retarded reasons. If you gave some people a green hat and others a blue hat they'd start to kill each other over which fucking hat is better, too.

>>7786108
>Like your academic feminists of the 70's.

Some of them were, others were sending resources and legal help to those women, going into law to help such women which is much more than you or I bitching on some weeaboo image board have ever done to help.

>>7786133
>There are plenty of countries on Earth where women don't have equal rights under the law, movements to support women in those countries and consisting of women in those countries will be around until they have equal rights under the law too.
It's rather evident that feminists in the 1st world don't give a shit about those women. They would rather complain about meme issues like manspreading,

>>7786147
You don't know me.

>>7786188
>It's rather evident that feminists in the 1st world don't give a shit about those women.
Some don't but I'd argue you're more likely to have been exposed to twelve year old girls complaining about boys at school or attention whores on tv whoring for attention than to established professional activist groups actually working towards a cause day in and day out without recognition. It doesn't change the original simple meaning of feminism it just means that's a label people wear like any other label to feel special or get attention especially in the U.S. where everything's about turning yourself into a brand and marketing yourself or just venting your anger everywhere. That gets deeper than any group and has to do with something very wrong with the way society functions and selfish tunnel vision and confirmation bias stuff.

But people in the U.S. when they here "feminist" will think "Beyonce" more than say women volunteering in other countries to improve access to birth control. Our priorities are really fucked up.

>>7786188
>They would rather complain about meme issues like manspreading,
Read >>7786029 and >>7786094

Feminists fight for equality where they can make a difference, unlike MRA concern trolls.

>>7786222
>You don't know me.

I said bitching on a weeaboo board doesn't help, including everything I'm saying right now. If your life's work is working with women in third world countries than that that is much more likely to have helped yes. That doesn't make fighting on 4chan activism though.

>>7786133
>"Equality of the sexes" that's it. I don't care what any dipshits online self-proclaimed "feminist" or not says it means.
Not one feminist in history has wanted equality.

Except of course the feminists who talk the talk and then do nothing.

The moderate feminists.

I'm angry how feminism has co-opted and claimed LGB and T activism and turned it into something very ideological and postmodernist, whereas true LGB and T activism should be an educational and scientific movement in my view. The rejection of gender is the most important and potentially catastrophic thing I think it has done in recent times.

Honey Badger Radio's Alison Tieman and Karen Straughan have really opened my eyes to male suffering. Highly recommend them to any of you who still believe women generally and traditionally have had it worse in society. You must be open minded of course and non-ideological, so if you fit those criteria I think it will be very enlightening.

>>7786242
People who care about equality don't need to go to a third world country to fight for it.

>>7786233
>unlike MRA concern trolls.

I said that, but I think there are MRAs who do real things, too. They have real issues and needs that need to be addressed. But who will you run across, someone addressing the unfair way men are treated in custody cases by serving as a legal advocate to such men, or working with say the corrupt prison system which harms men disproportionately to reform it, or some teenager mad because he hasn't lost his virginity yet? The MRAs doing real work and real activism are busy and less likely to bitch and complain on the Internet all day so you'll see and talk to them less. It's exactly the same with feminism.

>>7786267
You say that like feminists care about equality just the same as MRAs.

>>7786227
>established professional activist groups actually working towards a cause day in and day out without recognition
I'll admit I don't see this, because the fight's already been won at home.
>But people in the U.S. when they here "feminist" will think "Beyonce"
I would argue they see an Andrea Dworkins clone
>>7786233
I read those and can conclude by >>7786029 that feminism isn't needed in the west and by >>7786094 that they've strayed so far by allowing a woman like Linda Sarsour head any kind of feminist event.

>>7786255
>People who care about equality don't need to go to a third world country to fight for it.

I'm curious, what's the charity work you are regularly engaged with?

>>7786244
>Not one feminist in history has wanted equality.

In the States it just started with Suffragettes who wanted to vote. That was the only common thread and they believed different things otherwise. But that was really it in terms of unification. There were shitty things about the Suffragettes too, like racism (though their opponents were racist too, most people were really). But that was the initial idea.

>>7786247
>Karen Straughan
I really like her. It's nice she's known by some LGBT people. What issues she brings up do you think are most important?

Do you think being LGBT makes some issues more relevant to you, or easier/harder to spot?

>>7786298
I didn't say charity.

>>7786291
>I'll admit I don't see this, because the fight's already been won at home.

This is a list at some groups with self-described feminists that work to offer education and other needs of women in third world countries, like helping sex-trafficked girls, etc.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/23/magazine/23women-list.html

There are many of them and many people. Just just probably don't hear about them. They're not clickbait "news."

>>7786291
>Andrea Dworkins clone
I doubt most people know who she is.

People who label themselves feminists aren't a hive mind though and the people picked to be public figureheads are assholes half the time, that's true of most things it seems. Probably because they're loud so they get attention.

>>7786291
>feminism isn't needed in the west
Groups in the west need to work on problems in the developing world using their resources to help, such as the groups mentioned above.

>>7784878
>Feminists will loudly proclaim that we live in a society that hates women or we live in a rape culture or that 1 in 4 women will get raped in university (which would mean that campuses are worse than the Congo), yet they're allowed to say that without any retaliation and yet they are believed by men who proceed to feel guilty. And here's this alien culture being imported that actually has these problems and yet there's silence. Where were the feminists during the Cologne attacks last year?
Feminists do help women in foreign countries. Feminist lobbying in the West means the UN is fighting against violence against women in the developing world, helping educate girls and raise women out of poverty, bringing in bans again FGM, and more. As well as things that help men too, like fighting HIV and providing food aid.

>>7786336
>This is a list at some groups with self-described feminists that work to offer education and other needs of women in third world countries, like helping sex-trafficked girls, etc.
This is honestly a bit heartwarming
>the people picked to be public figureheads are assholes half the time
>Groups in the west need to work on problems in the developing world using their resources to help, such as the groups mentioned above.
And sadly these are both true

Cancer.

>>7786340
This isn't about feminists not doing shit in the 3rd world. What I was talking about is that when the mass sexual assaults happened in Europe all throughout 2016, European feminists were dead silent for a long time, only to come out to unilaterally say they didn't speak out because it'd encourage racism.

>>7786381
You brought up rapes in the Congo...

>>7786403
I brought up rapes in the Congo because according to feminist stats western college campuses have more rape occurring in them than in the Congo.

>>7786381
Some feminists were protesting Islam even before that (whether you agree with this group's uhhh tactics or not, they were protesting Islam and Muslims beat them up for it):

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2015/09/few-feminists-dare-criticise-islam-the-ones-who-do-should-be-praised-for-their-bravery/

>>7786426
>>7786340
>bringing in bans again FGM
>fighting HIV
https://www.unicef.org/esaro/5482_7884.html
https://www.unicef.org/protection/57929_58002.html

>>7786444
I don't see how this is a "gotcha" at all, the first page mentions it's a voluntary procedure offered to men and older boys, not young boys without their consent. I haven't seen anyone protesting women independently deciding to undergo FGM voluntarily. I wouldn't be against it.

Also being familiar with both they're not really comparable because a lot of FGM is much more invasive and not performed in a sterile hospital or for that matter any sterile environment which is a big part of why it's so dangerous.

>>7786489
it's done to young boys without their consent in this country so where are the feminists who believe in equality there?

>>7786573
I don't see how that's relevant to the Unicef services mentioned though? Those are offered with consent to men and older boys.

>>7786489
>it's a voluntary procedure
Wrong, social pressure.

>I haven't seen anyone protesting women independently deciding to undergo FGM voluntarily.
Wrong, social pressure, which is why countries have banned it even voluntarily.

>a lot of FGM is much more invasive
Wrong, much of it is less invasive. The Arab world takes less off girls than boys. It's Sub-Saharan Africa that is more invasive.

>and not performed in a sterile hospital
Wrong, Egypt does it in hospitals. Male circumcision is often does in non sterile environments just like female.

>>7786654
Male circumcision might have a link to autism as well.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4530408/

>>7786654
>It's Sub-Saharan Africa that is more invasive.

It seems like the specific Unicef procedure you're talking about though is specifically Sub-Saharan Africa and specifically to combat the AIDs epidemic there, so these other issues don't have much to do with that. The autism link is far from confirmed but HIV is a much bigger issue there so even if it's not ideal the idea seems to be offering voluntary procedures to communities at risk of HIV infection only is one way to prevent the spread of the disease. The article isn't about condoning the ritual. That's also a very particular and extreme/severe situation you're talking about. So of the ways to combat Ebola were unpleasant (like skipping burial procedures that are emotionally important to people) but that's a very dire situation.

I don't see what all these other cases have to do with the specific instance you linked to.

>>7786654
>which is why countries have banned it even voluntarily.
I admit I'm against that provided a person's truly consenting to it as an adult, there is a religious freedom issue wrapped up with it. Yes the sticky part is it's very hard to separate that from social pressure, though. Regardless, your link is only about a very specific to a situation medical use, and not that. If evidence arises that a type of female circumcision prevents HIV spread the same might be offered, but because of the mechanics they don't seem to have the same impact.

>>7786313
Things like custody laws, harsher bias against men in courts, in divorce settlements and in general, awareness of female to male domestic abuse, the lack of male shelters, the workplace death gap and male genital mutilation are the most important issues that come to mind. There just seems to be a cultural bias that sees women as helpless victims and all men as potential criminals or rapists.

Being gay really I think let me get sucked into the leftist social issues pov when I was younger and more vulnerable, with much of the media I consumed at first in trying to cope presenting everything through that feminist/sjw lens. I think in that sense it led me at first to be much less prone to seeing that men have real issues too, especially as many of the divorce/custody/domestic issues would never apply to me.

What about you? I'm interested in your thoughts too and how being LGBT has influenced your perspective.

>>7784802
No, actually that's exactly what the article did in the first place. It said "feminism is bad because muh traditions". It expects the audience to just accept that the stability of society is more important than equal rights for all citizens.

>>7784878
>Yes they do nigga, that culture is being imported wholesale into Europe as we speak.
Facilitating the immigration of women from Muslim countries into the West is the absolute best thing Western feminists could do to help those women.

>>7786845
>Facilitating the immigration of women from Muslim countries into the West is the absolute best thing Western feminists could do to help those women.
Except where it's mostly men of fighting age being imported. And feminists continue to make excuses every time one of them does something awful because Muslims are the highest tier in the progressive stack for some reason.

>>7786247
>to any of you who still believe women generally and traditionally have had it worse in society

I think both genders have had it bad in different ways and suffer in different ways; it's hard to say one or the other "has it worse." It depends an awful lot on your particular situation, too. Making a blanket statement is hard. Queen Elizabeth had things pretty fucking amazing. But she was born rich and powerful. Historically, people not born rich and people = shitty life no matter your gender.

Apart from that, it depends on who you are. Are you a widow trying to support your kids at a time when women have few jobs available? There's a good chance your life sucks more that a guy of the exact same social status unless you're getting some help from somewhere. If you're not getting any your life will be harder. Are you a guy during a draft? Probably sucks more for you, though if you're killed your wife and kids might starve to death if it's a women-can'twork-or-get-remarried situation, so you're all gonna die it's just a question of how. Are you a man or a woman who doesn't fit gender roles of your time, you're gay/lgbt, whatever? Life probably sucks.

But it depends. How much money did you inherit? Is your spouse abusing you? What are your abilities and disabilities? You can't really generalize.

Class is always the single biggest and most important factor, though.

>>7786791
>I admit I'm against that provided a person's truly consenting to it as an adult, there is a religious freedom issue wrapped up with it. Yes the sticky part is it's very hard to separate that from social pressure, though.
Funny, that doesn't bother you and all the other feminists when it comes to FGM. Equality between men and women, you said.

>>7786864
>Except where it's mostly men of fighting age being imported. And feminists continue to make excuses every time one of them does something awful because Muslims are the highest tier in the progressive stack for some reason.
So you're saying now you're in favor of discrimination against men?

>>7786875
I'm not really sure what you're saying. What I'm saying is that I think if it's really their choice either women or men should be able to choose to get circumcised (I'm a Libertarian). The only tough part is making sure it's really their choice. Same with everything else.

>>7786883
I'm saying those migrants are spineless for being unwilling to defend their nation and instead abandon their children in a war zone or trying to pose a children thus taking up slots that could go to children.

>>7786897
>I'm saying those migrants are spineless for being unwilling to defend their nation
It's not about being "spineless", that's just a toxic masculinity meme. They'd just get killed along with their family if they stayed, and in doing so would put their family in even greater risk. They don't have enough money to bring the whole family to Europe at once, so the men go to make money and then pay for their family to travel there with them.

>>7786916
You know this is a culture that places no value on women. They're going to Europe to save their own skins, children, the elderly, the disabled all be damned. If they are going to Europe it should be only to return with training and a rifle in hand.

>>7786867
I should have added the draft.
>Probably sucks more for you, though if you're killed your wife and kids might starve to death if it's a women-can'twork-or-get-remarried situation, so you're all gonna die it's just a question of how.
That's a shitty way to try to cheapen the tragic loss of men in wartime.

>I think both genders have had it bad in different ways and suffer in different ways; it's hard to say one or the other "has it worse."
Also you argue that you can't generalize and say that class is an important determinant, which I get, but what do you say to the hard statistics, and what if they show that an issue disproportionately affects or hurts one gender over another? Do those facts have no value to you?

I don't care to argue the reverse of feminism, that men have it worse than women overall (though I think that is a perfectly reasonable debate to have), I just care about advocating equality of opportunity and treatment and if an issue affects one group more than another, it probably should merit some investigation.

>>7786811
The death gap is one I really hate. Other things harm men in other ways, but there they are literally dying. Mgm too because it's just so indefensible and obviously unfair. The fact that talking about any of these issues is controversial is really saddening. Like you say though these all seem to stem from the same cultural bias.

I wasn't in the leftist social justice pov but I think feeling dysphoric and jealous of girls made me open to the issues facing men. I worry that it biases me too and leads me to care more about them than I should. But the culture that allows them is so all enveloping that probably not. I also worry it feeds my dysphoria and makes it worse.

>>7786867
>>7786996
>>Probably sucks more for you, though if you're killed your wife and kids might starve to death if it's a women-can'twork-or-get-remarried situation, so you're all gonna die it's just a question of how.
>That's a shitty way to try to cheapen the tragic loss of men in wartime.
"Women have always been the primary victims of war."
t. feminism

>>7787052
Alison Tieman's threat narrative series on her youtube channel really dives deep into the cultural bias if you haven't seen that.

Interesting, I haven't thought of how that would make sense from a mtf's perspective. Aren't a disprortionate number of mtf's feminists though?

>>7787243
I haven't seen any of hers, just Straughan's. It's really what I want to understand well, so I will watch her.

It seems like there are a lot of mtf feminists but it might be that mtfs are less likely to be neutral. So, same proportions are ideological as the general female population, but without the uninterested/apolitical center.

My personal theory is that some mtfs' dislike of being male lends itself to a dislike of male culture and they become feminists, and for others it lends itself to a dislike of how men are treated, and they take the other view. I guess their experiences of being male impact that, and then how they come to terms with it. Both are a dislike of something in our culture about men, and the difference is whether men are the victims or perpetrators of that part of culture.

>>7786996
>That's a shitty way to try to cheapen the tragic loss of men in wartime.

I don't see how it cheapens the loss to observe there were times your whole family would starve to death if you died or were disabled and yes it sucks for your family to starve to death too. That's one reason women in the Middle Ages often got out being part of trade guilds and formed careers because the guys dying in war was pretty common and someone has to take care of the family. But if you're killed in battle then your wife starves to death with your kids they're both horrible. Which is worse? TO be honest I'd rather be killed in battle than watch my kids die and starving is a worse way to go. But depends on personal preference really. They're both shit.

And yes especially when twon raids happened it's not like women and kids didn't get killed in war so it's shitty all around. How does it cheapen anything to mention that war = bad for everybody and that you know the soldiers dying had negative consequences? Would you rather I say that their deaths didn't matter or hurt their loved ones back home?

>>7786996
>what if they show that an issue disproportionately affects or hurts one gender over another? Do those facts have no value to you?

Oh yeah and as for that, no it's fine to focus on issues that disproportionate effect one gender over the other, I meant in aggregate especially if you're trying to generalize the entire world over all of human history. But saying "in this country right now X has a bigger impact on gender b" makes sense sure.

>>7787052
>I worry that it biases me too and leads me to care more about them than I should. But the culture that allows them is so all enveloping that probably not. I also worry it feeds my dysphoria and makes it worse.
I don't think it's everybody but some mtfs and ftms I have known have seemed a bit more caught up than usual on how terrible society is to their birth genders and it is possible that since you don't fit into that at all it seems worse. I also do see some resentment of cis for each gender people are transitioning into I think that's just normal and human people want something and when other people who have it don't like it there can be resentment but maybe people should consider if their personal situation leads to some bias. The truth is everyone is different and wants different things so some people cis or trans will not be happy sticking to their gender role ever. Whther or birth or even after transiton since I know people who have transitioned who don't fit their transitioned into gender role at all either. Everyone's different and different things work for different people.

>>7786888
You don't see the feminist double standard towards FGM and MGM?

>Libertarian feminist
Nah.

>>7787710
>You don't see the feminist double standard towards FGM and MGM?

Dude there's no "official feminist position" on anything just people with different positions and ideas. If a person views them differently yes that is stupid.

>>7787710
>Libertarian feminist
>Nah.

There are a lot when you're not using some fucktarded position just "everyone has equal civil rights" period aka the actual fucking dictionary definition and how things started with voting rights. That's pretty fucking consistent with Libertarianism if you're don't make up new stupid definitions. People who have some different view that's stupid are stupid but keep I'm going to keep it fucking simple and use the official definition since it's still relevant in a lot of countries and it grew from actual unequal voting rights.

>>7787738
>If a person views them differently yes that is stupid.
So every single feminist apart from the irrelevant ones who do literally nothing but post on the internet defending feminism and saying not all feminists.

>>7787752
>So every single feminist apart from the irrelevant ones who do literally nothing but post on the internet defending feminism and saying not all feminists.

Most people who are feminist i.e. both women and men should vote in the first world do nothing and of course they don't. Men and women can vote here. Game over. Aside from helping in the developed world people who do ever do anything will have some fucking chip on their shoulder so of course they're crazy.

>>7787780
Feminists find more time to complain about men sitting with the knees apart than boys getting their genitals mutilated the way they successfully got banned for girls.

This is feminism. This is what you are.

>>7787797
>This is feminism. This is what you are.
No that's whiney babies online with too much free time on their hands and a very tiny subset of the population. Stop going to fucking tumblr or possibly worse reddit.

>>7786937
>If they are going to Europe it should be only to return with training and a rifle in hand.
So then they can get killed, and get their families raped and murdered in retaliation? I've got a better idea: if you really care about women, why don't you help the women immigrate to Europe? Their home country is a lost cause, at least for the time being.

>>7787797
MRA's spend more time complaining about straw feminists whining about ``manspreading" than actually doing anything themselves that helps men.

Two can play that game.

>>7789376
This is actually true.

When was the last time MRAs opened a shelter for abused men? What about charities that help marginalized guys? What about anti-circumcision rallies or at least letters/calls to local government officials defending male babies? What about literally any form of actual MRA aid to men? All I've seen are absurdist PUA-centric rants about ethical rape, crying about SJWs who cry about video games (while actual censorship is carried out by well-funded religious organizations), and trolling easy-target tumblrfeminist strawman stereotypes?

A lot of truly hard-line radical feminists are batshit insane and misandrist as fuck, but MRAs are absolutely useless. They're tumblr with a dick.

File: 1466966036991.jpg (83KB, 500x624px) Image search: [Google]

83KB, 500x624px

>>7789620
>MRAs are absolutely useless
The MRA movement barely exists outside of Reddit.

>>7789620
>What about anti-circumcision rallies or at least letters/calls to local government officials defending male babies?
https://www.all22.com/new-england-patriots/anti-circumcision-protest-outside-gillette-stadium-patriots-vs-steelers

>What about literally any form of actual MRA aid to men?
http://www.arclaw.org/our-work/projects

>>7764196
> sex work for a gay male clientele
This is called conversion therapy. It's gross.

>>7764443
That difficult choice was marriage, not sex. You forget what total prudes people were in the premodern age.

Also, the threats to pre-modern women were passive threats; it's not the same as an active threat, like, say, a boss saying to an employee, "give me head or i'll fire you."