How is life different as a man/woman

>>7716100
The question goes in both ways

>>7716100
bump

As a ftm - people are less friendly/helpful to men, but also less lecherous/threatening. On the flip side, men are seen as more lecherous and threatening.
For example - I once saw a drunk girl crying and these guys she didn't know were coming up to her and putting their arms around her and stuff. I don't know what their intentions were, but i automatically assumed they wanted to take advantage of her. My instinct was to talk to her and make sure she was alright, but then i realized i would probably be seen the same way just because I'm a guy. My girlfriend went and talked to her and we walked her home.
People also respect men more and assume they're more capable than women. You can feel a difference in the way people listen when you talk.

I don't think either gender has it easier, just different. Women have an easier time getting sex, which is what 4chan is always upset about. But men have an easier time getting respect.

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>>7716100

I haven't noticed much of a difference since transitioning except that now I get mansplained to more and interrupted more by men.
Also I get my pussy grabbed more and men are literally fighting to buy me diamond bracelets.
And dinner.
Everybody wants to hold doors open for me and buy me dinner.
In fact, I don't have to even do anything except sit around painting my nails and eating bonbons.
Everything is given to me on a silver platter simply because I wear mascara.
It is truly a New World, anon!

>>7716100
>she
>her

>>7716218
Thank you a lot for the genuine reply. That's what I was hoping for.

>People also respect men more and assume they're more capable than women

I feel I do that too, but do women also consciously or unconsciously assume that other women are less capable?

>You can feel a difference in the way people listen when you talk.
Kek I remember when my sister came to visit with her new bf. I love my sister to death and respect her and what she does, but was tired and not really paying attention when she was talking. When her boyfriend talked to me, something in my head would click and I'd just listen to him.

>>7716311
>but was tired and not really paying attention when she was talking. When her boyfriend talked to me, something in my head would click and I'd just listen to him.
These stereotypes feed themselves and are self-fulfilling. Women do talk about more trivial stuff than men. Sucks if you're a woman who doesn't, but it is simple common sense for men and women to except what men say to be more worth listening to.

>>7716224
pls no bully pls

As a passing MtF who transitioned at 17:
>people are way more willing to interact with me
>people are way nicer
>people are way more willing to randomly compliment me
>women don't assume I have bad intentions
>people take me a lot less seriously (feels bad I used to only be taken seriously because of my gender)
>men in particular are 100x more condescending
>guys are now giant creeps to me sometimes
>people want to help me more, even if I know what I'm doing
>way easier to get sex
>way more pressure to improve my appearance, since most of my worth comes from how I look

Probably more stuff, but that's what I immediately thought of.

>>7716218
> People also respect men more and assume they're more capable than women

FTM, can confirm. Being a woman gives you more attention, but it's mostly shallow. Being a man gives you less attention, but when you get it, it's genuine and serious (for better or for worse).

>>7716393
>>people are way nicer
>>people take me a lot less seriously
How do men and women each do these to you?

>>7716406
People are nice to children, but they also don't put much stock into what they say. Same concept. Honestly, pretty much everything about being a woman is like being a child with boobs.

>>7716406
>>7716424
Oh and to add to that, if a guy suddenly thinks what I'm saying is the most fascinating stuff ever, it's pretty much a confirmation he just wants to do lewd stuff to me.

>>7716424
But what do they actually do that's nice but also taking you less seriously?

>>7716432
What's it like being desired so much, instead of being the one expected to do the pursuing?

>>7716393
>way more pressure to improve my appearance, since most of my worth comes from how I look
I heard that a thousand times but only now I feel it confirmed. Glad I made the thread.

Alright, so there's a bigger pressure on looks in women, is there some kind of pressure that was bigger when you were perceived as male?

>>7716450
>What's it like being desired so much, instead of being the one expected to do the pursuing?
I never really did the pursuing before transition, since I transitioned so young. But being desired is a really nice feeling. Kind of addicting, honestly, I see why some women become all out attention whores. I feel like it has a pretty negative effect on my personality.

>But what do they actually do that's nice but also taking you less seriously?
Before transition, when I would try to talk about a serious topic everyone would pay way more attention and give me far more praise for a good idea. Now it feels like I just completely passed over and when I try to express something it just doesn't have the same degree of impact at all. I've tried to control for other factors too, so I'm reasonably confident it's gender that has caused this.

>>7716486
Pressure to be masculine? Duh. I sucked at that though, and I suffered for failing to meet those expectations.
There's also the pressure to succeed on your own, the pressure to remain stoic, the pressure to be strong, etc.

>>7716508
What nice treatment do you get now based on gender?

How did you feel the pressure to be successful on your own, stoic, strong, etc? Like, what were the ways you were made to feel you had to be and who was doing the pressuring?

>>7716508
>I'm reasonably confident it's gender that has caused this

I would argue that people treat you the same but that you interpret it differently since you are coming for a more emotional, less secure space.

>>7716432
that's pretty cynical. It is certainly true to a good extent, but I'd honestly bang a pretty wide range of chicks because my dick doesn't have high standards and don't act this interested in them. when I'm THAT interested into a girl I want her really bad, and that's usually not only because I think she's hot.

I'm mtf, and I think its a mixed bag of advantages and disadvantages, some which are easier to deal with depending on your personality and appearance.
people overall are more friendly toward women, people are more open around you, feel safer around you, approach you more and like you more. People can also be TOO friendly, men seem to think its their duty to assist you. Women also receive a lot more leniency, people will go easier on you for doing something they'd treat a man worse for. Women have more freedom when it comes to self expression, in both the way we act or dress.
Men are expected to figure everything out on their own. Women receive a lot more attention and help. Nobody is going to take their time to assist a guy that is struggling with something. On the other end, men tend to think women need things explained to them. I regularly get mansplained to. I think for men you really need to make an effort to impress people in order to get noticed, the men who don't are basically invisible. There is a big pressure on men to prove yourself, to be successful and any man who doesn't conform is looked down upon by both men and women.
I don't think men are automatically taken more seriously than women, I've been talked over and not taken seriously my whole life. It's only men who really have a commanding presence who are taken seriously and listened to. But when men do have that presence, they have a lot of power and think they have power over women.
I think a lot of what advantages you get are dependent on what kind of a man/woman you are. Attractive women have more privilege than ugly women and almost all the benefits of being a man are only available to the successful and strong.
Ofc I don't think it's fully possible for trans people to be able to know both sides of the coin entirely. I probably couldn't tell you all the great things about being a man because I don't know what it's like to be a man, only how it feels to be treated like a boy who doesn't fit in.

>>7716871
>Women also receive a lot more leniency, people will go easier on you for doing something they'd treat a man worse for.
What sort of things do men get treated worse for and women get leniency?

>Men are expected to figure everything out on their own. Women receive a lot more attention and help. Nobody is going to take their time to assist a guy that is struggling with something.
What do women get assisted at while men have to figure out themselves?

>There is a big pressure on men to prove yourself, to be successful and any man who doesn't conform is looked down upon by both men and women.
What sort of proving themselves/success? How is the pressure put on them?

Your last two paragraphs are important point.

>>7716951
>What sort of things do men get treated worse for and women get leniency?
The courtroom, the classroom, the workplace, emergency situations, and I could go on. Being a woman is easymode.

>>7716218
the only reason your girlfriend is with you is because she's a lesbian.
you don't get to speak for us. You have no idea what it's like being actually male and alone

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>>7716100
It's late so i won't write as much, but those things just popped up in my head:

so many guys just start talking with me and won't stop, they won't go away even if i clearly signal them that i have to go. Some classmates i only saw, like a few times, just started hugging me really hard for example and lifting me up in the air, twisting arround laughing and were then disappointed when i never called him back, or got angry.
Also small talk at the office mostly ends in them giving me their number and being pissed off when i'm not interested in them. I don't know what i'm doing wrong, but not being rude is apparantly a 'yes' to flirting...
Most men are very polite, don't get me wrong, but like 10% just seem to think it's ok to creep on you. It got so bad that i won't leave the house on weekends, other than work or shopping for groceries.
Other women are 50/50, either extremely bitchy or really nice and friend-material.
All the stuff other anons said is true, as a man they listen to you more and seem to value what you say while as a woman groups of people don't seem to take you seriously, even when it's women. This is a problem at my job, which is very life-science orientated, but maybe it's just because i don't talk much while working with my colleagues, due to said issues...
i like this thread so far

>>7716100
>>7716109
>>7716218
>>7716224
>>7716311
>>7716393
>>7716406
>>7716508
>>7716871
>>7716951
To all the people here saying you get taken more seriously as a man, what kind of advantage is that.
Please tell me what it's like having intact genitals? What's it like not having 15 square inches of skin amputated from your genitals as a child, just because you're born female. What's it like knowing that female circumcision is illegal in every western country, but male circumcision is not only legal it's routinely practiced in the US. Please, tell me about how there are advantages to being male.

What's it like having guys throw themselves at you, even though you're only an 8/10. How can you be so self absorbed that you take that as negative attention, when there are guys out there that have never even seen a vagina. Has male attention rotted away your brain. You live in a bubble.

>>7717078
most of us were cut aswell you jerk
what do we have to do with circumcision laws?
i have never seen a penis if that makes you feel better

>>7716998
>the classroom, the workplace, emergency situations,
I've heard about the courts, but what sorts of male worse treatment and female leniency is there in education, work and emergencies?

>>7717100
you want to know if it's easier being a woman? You answered your own question.
Cis girls already have more nerve endings than men, compared to a cut guy they feel maybe, 3 times more. All the while it's 'empowering' for them to own a vibrator.
Oh but wait, people take me more seriously in day to day conversation, that's right. Definitely worth it.

>>7717032
Maybe you're alone because you're an unpleasant, bitter asshat.

>>7717078
idk if you read my post but I said that I don't think men automatically get taken more seriously.
I also think circumcision should be illegal, I was cut as a baby.
It's obvious that when it comes to genital mutilation of babies, male children have less rights than female children. I thought this thread was more about how people get treated in general though.

>>7717100
men are 5 times more likely to kill themselves, constitute 99 percent of workplace deaths
two-thirds of college graduates are female. Women are 2 to 1 more likely to be hired for STEM jobs, just because of affirmative action
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-18/melbourne-university-opens-up-jobs-to-women-applicants-only/7426704

>>7717119
Are you literally autistic? You're way too fixated on sexual pleasure. There's more to life.

>>7716224
What a hormonal response.

>>7717119
>>/r9k/
we're just sharing our experiences, i never said that being attractive to nerds is better than being taken seriously, while i never ever said that being cut is worth the 'privilege' to be heard
i'm mtf, i know how hard it is
still you sound like a insecure man. At least you feel comfortable in your body
>>7717140
so what? How does that contradict anything? I'm for mens right you absolute imbicible

>>7717124
>>7717131
I think it's important, and it's something that really fucks with me, as a man. It's a hard pill to swallow.
As a boy, the doctor's office isn't a safe place. It is if you're a girl. Any discussion on gender politics should include that.

>>7717047
>Most men are very polite, don't get me wrong, but like 10% just seem to think it's ok to creep on you. It got so bad that i won't leave the house on weekends, other than work or shopping for groceries.
Where do you get this kind of treatment? No way it's just in the street, unless you only mean cat calling. Can't you just walk away or say fuck off?

>>7717155
I can understand how you feel, and I'm sorry that you have to live with that. Maybe you should look into restoration if you haven't already
>As a boy, the doctor's office isn't a safe place. It is if you're a girl. Any discussion on gender politics should include that.
well it sure is a lot safer than as a trans girl or boy.

>>7717148
>>7717143
sex is consistently ranked as the most pleasurably activity a human primate can participate in.
If you are circumcised, it is completely ruined. Rocco Sifredi. circumcised at 31, said men circumcised at birth will "never know" what it feels like, not even close.
We evolved to want sex. It's built deep inside of us.

>>7717131
>It's obvious that when it comes to genital mutilation of babies, male children have less rights than female children. I thought this thread was more about how people get treated in general though.
That is a big difference in how people are treated. Gendered treatment in general is worse for kids because it's ingraining that way of thinking into them.

>>7717148
>still you sound like a insecure man. At least you feel comfortable in your body
They could be an MTF too. That would explain being bitter about this, not that cis guys have no reason to be too.

Being male doesn't mean being circumcised. Stop bitching at women and blame your Jew parents.

t. uncircumcised male

>>7717172
so not only do women have more sex (look at STD rates, 1/12 men have herpes, 1/6 women), they enjoy it more

>>7717180
>That is a big difference in how people are treated. Gendered treatment in general is worse for kids because it's ingraining that way of thinking into them.
true, but the OP was asking for the experiences of trans people on how differently we were treated as a male/female. that doesn't exactly entail a 2nd birth so I didn't feel circumcision was a relevant topic.

>>7717189
Who is bitching at women? The bias that treats females as precious and delicate and makes even a pinprick on their genitals a crime and "mutilation" while for males it's routine is a double standard perpetuated by both men and women.

The claim that objecting to sexism against men is somehow against women is a classic defense of this kind of double standard.

>>7717189
it does if you were born in the US dude. A doctor advised my parents to do it. I cannot tell you how many women here have a fucking opinion on it, not most but some

>>7717160
I study and work at a university, which is under the top 10 worldwide (i don't want to brag, it just happend that i ended up there). I recently started my first semester, tried being distant to other students, and guys just sat besides me, started talking, the usual small talk i enjoy and do with most people. It's just that those people, which are my age and don't really seem like creeps on the first glance, just started following me after class without even asking, started getting too 'grabby' or just called me really late not talking much. I don't own a facebook account anymore, due to "reasons". I guess i never learned to be politely and consequently distant to strangers, i mostly think the best of everyone arround me. I never really learned to say 'no' to others and the people i fell for usually turn out to be only after one or two nights of sex.

Oh btw depression and all that crap stayed the same, i'm clinically depressed since i started puberty, which was like 12 years ago. Even though other say i look soooo happy, i got problems too. Who would have guessed, boo hoo
>>7717172
yes we know, i and at least 3 others in this thread are cut, it sucks, srs-results while being cut sucks, the laws suck and circumcision should be illegal - we never stated otherwise.
I hope you get to direct your energy towards transition or you way of being happy, i really do.
>>7717180
gosh i hope so, the pre-transition mtfs are sooo angry and hate their own kind (like i did) and think we're all leftist feminazis, while i for my part am a mixture of liberal and conservative/nationalist (:
>>7717199
how do you know how the pleasure is between genders if men don't know how women experience sex and women don't know how men do?

>>7717214
>>7717216
I'm American. It's not society, it's not sexism. It was your parents' decision and they decided to fuck you over. My parents, who are American, had the same decision and choose not to. Blame your parents.

>>7717218
being sexually fulfilled as a woman is cool, being sexually fulfilled as a man is dirty and gross. You cannot deny that, if you hang around liberals.
I can't explain to you how it feels when you're hanging out with a girl and she tells you she's slept with 12 guys in the space of a year, and she shows you her vibrator, meanwhile your penis is leathery and hard, and you can't even masturbate without lotion.
Because you're a 20 something and you were born in the US. There are girls here that think it's better too, and you know they're going to do it to their kids and there's nothing you can do about it. It'll never be illegal.

>>7716871
> I probably couldn't tell you all the great things about being a man because I don't know what it's like to be a man

OP here, as a teen I was the invsible guy who didn't fit in, now I do. As a teen I just lost control. Bullied in school, situation at home was pure shit. Always looked to the floor when walking, lost in escapist fantasies and wished I could just stop existing. This loneliness was the worst feeling I have experienced till now, worse than any setback or heartbreak. Then in a matter of weeks I became filled with anger for my bullies, and managed to stop being a victim through fighting back.
I was lucky to gain one friend when I was 16, started lifting at 17, martial arts with 18. The friendship was what stopped this soul crushing loneliness and I gained more friends . I kept lifing because I absolutely despised myself. When I gained 20lbs of muscle I suddenly started looking like a man and felt that I had gained "presence". People would actually look at me and respect me, even though I wasn't built or ripped. Martial arts were fueled by a passion and that feeling of being less than others. I felt like when I could do stuff that others couldn't that I could be something. It got me more confident and made me feel powerful. The passion kept me going through the days and weeks. I also didn't do bad in trade school and got a diploma. When I eventually got into university with 22 I was a man. People at least perceived me as that, because I had a passion, social skills, friends, goals in life. Now when I talk people, the stuff I say just has more weight behind it, even though my voice isn't deep, I have shit facial hair, am of average height and build. I get more aknowledged and it feels good because feel like I turned life around by luck and power. There are still these feelings of loneliness and helplessness, like most men probbably have. But now I feel like I am "someone", like people respect my skills passions and ambitions.

>>7717205
It's worthy of a mention in a thread about the ways the genders are treated, just like the way boys/girls are treated in childhood even though trans people will only see one side of that. It is part of a larger difference in how men and women are seen too. But you're right, it's not really what OP was asking, and there is a foreskin thread already up
>>7711809
>>7713306
>>7717196

>>7717235
hey man, I understand that.
It doesn't change the fact that female circumcision is illegal, and 75% of males in the US are circumcised.
if you want to talk about how men and women are treated differently by society, you have to include that. That parents are given the option in the first place.

>>7716486
i pass and am very pretty and i would 100% disagree with that actually i dont feel like my worth comes from how i look and any pressure i have to look better is an internal drive so i look good for my bf

>>7717246
thats a fucked up situation, i'm not in the us if that matters. I never heard anyone brag about how they slept arround, never, and i've been arround a lot as a kid.
You seem very jealous and thats not healthy, you're obsessed with your deficits and forget how almost everybody arround you has problems to a degree, most likely even worse.
It's also not healthy to be so obsessed you own penis while thinking about women like that, it's not wonder you don't seem to succeed with love.
Think about restoration, i did it and with a few minutes a day i restored most of my foreskin over a period of 10 months.

>>7717251
Thanks for the insight, I'm happy for you! I'm sure you'll find someone who can fill in those feelings of loneliness. People forget that men need support just as much as women, humans are all dependent on each other.

>>7717269
same here

>>7717235
thread topic was "how is life different for a man or woman"

>>7717235
I don't blame women, but if you ask about how life is different as a man, you have to talk about circumcision
even if it wasn't the cultural norm in the US, even if it only happened to 5% of the population, it's still something that happens to guys and something that makes life harder
I'm happy for you, and I don't blame women

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Pretty much the day after I transitioned, people's expectations changed. My family went from wanting to kick me out, "it's tough love, you have to learn to make it on your own!" to insisting I stay with them indefinitely; and I found myself the future benefactor of several wills. My college professors went full baby gloves. The girls in the periphery of my social network perked up and suddenly there was always something to do. It was like night and day. It was really fucking weird. Dating went from "there's always next time" to actually having to reject people. And then when I did find a boyfriend, it's been smooth sailing. Guys are very easy to please in comparison to women. Their expectations are so low, that just being nice is enough to blow their mind. You bake a lasagna, forget it. You're stuck. You have officially become someone's fiancee.

>>7716100
As an mtf who was fairly attractive as a guy. I think it's just as easy to have sex. the "easiness" of having sex is based on your appearance/personality. also, If you have money sex is easy mode as a guy. But, if you're short and have a small dick, having sex is like solving a Math riddle for autistic geniuses.

the respect thing might be presented as skewed, because I think a lot of mtf's act overly feminine. The weaker you appear and act, the less respect you will get.

The niceness thing I understand. People are sort of scared of men and tend to open up to women more. Like my sisters never talked to me as a guy and after have opened to me a lot.

Freedom of expression I think is more lenient to women. Guys who are expressive are often perceived as queers. expressiveness is often seen as weak and men almost never talk about their feelings.

>ftm
Never did experience any of the alleged good/better treatment pre-transition because I was rather ugly as a girl, in the 'looks and acts like a man' sense (it runs in the family along my mom's side).

I did get plenty of the negatives though:
>couldn't hang out with friends outside of school
>could barely leave the porch without being interrogated
>bullied for nonstandard behavior and interests
>because I was "ugly"/manly too, any of my affection would be instant joke fodder and used to bully other people by association
>intelligence and talent completely overblown by parents and k-12 instructors, grades and scores don't mean a damned thing and it set me up for a perfectionist's ultimate breakdown/burnout when faced with actual challenges

In my transition, everything fell into place. Turns out I won a decent prize in the trans genetic lottery. I went from a 3/10 to anywhere between 5-7/10 and 100% passing for male.

With these come different treatment:
>sheltered behavior/thought is a negative unless there's youthful looks to back it up
>talents are more fairly assessed
>nerd hobbies are acceptable, BJD collection is now seen as very odd until I clarify I only own the anime-looking ones
>banter goes both ways and is finely appreciated
>my affection is no longer used as a social bludgeon
>moodiness is not tolerated, but I've become easygoing anyway

>>7717451
lol this is so true

>>7717299
OP here again, thank you a lot. The part of not getting support wasn't that bad. But what would've kept this loneliness phase managable would've just been some small acts of positive attention. Like people asking how my day has been, smiling at me, starting a small harmless chitchat, telling me that a shirt looked good on me or something and it wouldn't habe been an experience that crippled my self esteem for the next few years.

>>7716871
>I don't think men are automatically taken more seriously than women, I've been talked over and not taken seriously my whole life. It's only men who really have a commanding presence who are taken seriously and listened to.

This, I've never felt an inherent "being taken seriously", because of my attitude. I'm really relaxed and don't play power games with other guys. I'm probably "dangerously" relaxed.

My Ex (female) however was a somewhat serious person and was mostly taken seriously from what I saw, she's currently up for promotion in her job because she basically told supervisors/managers they weren't doing stuff right and the region manager took note and earmarked her for it.

Anecdotal of course, but it's obviously not a unique scenario.

>>7717451
>Their expectations are so low, that just being nice is enough to blow their mind.

That's not low expectations as such, some men are low "demand". It's not we "put up with shit", it's that we literally don't care about said shit. this is talking from my own experience.
I never hold a grudge but I've know females that need only one little fuck up, and it scars the relationship forever.

It's how we're wired/trained growing up (there's arguments for both).

>>7716393
>since most of my worth comes from how I look
Holy shit this is so sad.

>>7717455
attractive men and women, or guys with money aren't fair comparisons to reality though.

We need to look at the averages of both. Average men need to have at least an income, be confident enough to at least talk a bit, and have a deccent personality (not being gollum helps too).

If a women *really* wanted to just sex, none of those things apply. Men will pay, they will persue and assuming it's just sex, they probably don't care too much about personality.
Women are held back by not wanting to seem slutty, look at women that have shed that notion they can literally click and be fucking 5 seconds later. I have a friend like this it's literally that easy for her, and she's not really that attractive.

>Guys who are expressive are often perceived as queers. expressiveness is often seen as weak and men almost never talk about their feelings

this is true to me though. I have noticed though, the guys with girlfriends in my group constantly complain about thier SOs when we're out. They also have a habit when we hang out with girls who have issues of just giving "lip service"/generic responses.
On the other hand with past relationships I never once felt the need to complain to "the guys" and I usually give actual solid advice to girls in our friend circle. To the point of giving actual advice that made her stay with her BF, despite my friend hinting for her to break up with him (He was trying to get me with her). But I feel hopeless with women for the most part, despite being semi-confident now. I worry caring is seen as weak/gay best freind tier shit.

>>7718042
>It's how we're wired/trained growing up (there's arguments for both).
How could that kind of thing be trained?

>>7718170
Well men are taught to be macho, stoic, brave, assertive. Eventually that can just become your personality.
For example with myself, when people tried to bully me in high school I jsut luaghed at them and walked off. This has manifested as me being a very relaxed person that isn't phased by much.

I can't speak for women but the "generic things" (feel free to correct me/ add on) you hear about are be nice, be a princess, find a prince. They can be taught to have illusions of what to expect and not be very good at dealing with situations that aren't prefect.

Obviously these are genralisations, and outliers do exist. I do believe a lot is nature too though, for sure.

>>7716100
I find it a pisser that if I introduced myself as an FtM to /fit/, it would be a full thread of "Y U MENTALLY ILL THO." Why can't we bully you, OP?

Kidding. Mostly.

The FtM you mentioned in your OP covered a lot of what I would have said, but I'll chime in anyway:

- Yes, people with children are MUCH more wary. It throws me, because my mother raised me to pay attention to any children nearby. I realize that's a "feminine" thing, but I still do it automatically and I have found parents to get freaked out.

- Yes, I'm more cautious of how I behave around women. Once a coworker saw me get annoyed with some equipment (I have a temper) and ran to security having a complete breakdown. I found out that she was always scared around me because I mentally took her back to her rapist angrily raping her. Like, holy shit...we are about the same size. The idea that I'd be a threat does NOT occur to me. It's weird.

- I got interrupted and talked over a lot as a girl, like I wasn't there. It was so frustrating. Some of my primary interests are video games and analyzing politics, so...yeah, obviously it helps to be perceived as male in such male-dominated areas. I know my ideas will be given a certain degree of automatic consideration. (Though I admittedly tend to "test" women too, since they rarely care that much, and don't really engage the same way. So men are often justified in not taking them seriously on certain topics.)

Sometimes I mentally catalogue how my Twitter friends discuss women amongst themselves and think about how my conversations with them would change (and they WOULD change) if they knew I wasn't born male. Also weird.

There's a HUGE difference between how a man (especially a straight man) treats someone who he KNOWS is biologically female (even if he's liberal enough to "accept" trans people) and how that same guy treats a scrawny manlet.

I'd rather be a failed man to other guys than a girl.

>>7718685
[cont]

- As others have mentioned, males are expected to be more competent and fend for themselves. I saw that in school, where being read as male suddenly meant that teachers would not help me when I was stuck, but would say, "Figure it out."

- I'm expected to fix things for OTHER people, even when I have no more experience at a task than they do. My roommate got a shelving unit for Christmas, and asked for my help in putting it together. Thirty minutes later, I looked up from the floor, and realized she was just sitting on the couch intently watching and "helpfully" handing me tools as I requested them. Oh. How did I end up building her shelves for her...

- People are more concerned with your physical safety if you're female. In some ways, I hated this (I wanted to BMX and play hockey as a kid, and I had to sneak around with my buddies to do it because it was "too dangerous"), and in some ways I was worried about losing it with transition. (Because, you know, I'm not THAT much bigger, and I could get seriously fucked up if I'm attacked. I've already been bashed once, and they broke my ribs and shit.)

- It's true that you have more market value as a young female, but I could never take advantage of it because I was so uncomfortable in my skin living as a girl. Sucks, man.

Being a "tranny," I figure I have zero market value now, and I was really worried about the libido jump on T because I didn't want to turn into this creepy dick: >>7717078

Clearly, this guy doesn't understand that pressuring attention from people who are MUCH bigger/stronger than you really isn't always "positive" (rarely, in fact), but we just can't understand the pain of only masturbating a lot. Or something. A man who thinks women REALLY call the shots regarding sex is a pretty scary guy.

I felt like...if I turned into that, just shoot me.

As it so happens, I did not. If I only ever just masturbate several times a day and never get laid, oh well. I won't go murder hookers.

>>7717078
1) It's true, I have the advantage of belonging to the sex that DOESN'T routinely get part of our junk lopped off (at least in the West). I agree that doing this is anti-male and a horrifying practice, and I am rabidly anti-circ. I am not your enemy on that (and it is also not necessary for you to downplay female circ as you have in this thread).

2) Re: vibrators. What kind of sad, bitter person do you have to be to complain about sex toys? If your complaint was that sex toys for men are less accepted, less well-designed or not considered as "sexy," I would agree and lament with you (although I think a lot of toys for men ARE hot, I would want to get some for any boyfriend I had). But no, you are apparently just complaining that women are getting off with them at all. Maybe when men (even cut men!) are as frequently anorgasmic without very strong stimulation like a vibe can provide (if even THAT works), you'll have a valid complaint. That time isn't now. For all the advantages of nerve endings, women as a group have a much harder time orgasming than men. Stop bitching about that one.

>>7718738
I didn't downplay female circumcision,
OP isn't asking about the Islamic world, he's asking about western women.

>>7718695
why do you never get laid....
because you're a guy now

>>7718738
We all have only ever lived in Western countries. If OP was asking "what's it like to be a girl in a shithole" obviously it's not good, it's way way worse than being a guy. What kind of point is that

>>7718685
>Some of my primary interests are video games and analyzing politics,
What sort of analyzing politics?

>Sometimes I mentally catalogue how my Twitter friends discuss women amongst themselves and think about how my conversations with them would change (and they WOULD change) if they knew I wasn't born male. Also weird.
What is it that they say and how would they change?

>I'd rather be a failed man to other guys than a girl.
I think plenty of MtFs and /r9k/ posters take the exact opposite view!

>>7718695
>I saw that in school, where being read as male suddenly meant that teachers would not help me when I was stuck, but would say, "Figure it out."
That's pretty awful. Other examples of bias like that in school or as a kid/adolescent?

>It's true that you have more market value as a young female, but I could never take advantage of it because I was so uncomfortable in my skin living as a girl. Sucks, man.
How would you have taken advantage of it if you were more comfortable as a girl?

>22 mtf
>started transition at 18
>pass, semi stealth

Here we go:

>being constantly looked at by men like I'm a peice of meat
>even my dad noticed and pointed it out
>my parents slowly became more protective of me
>men think I'm less competent
>old men call me pet names(sweetie, darling, etc) and I hate it
>women are nicer to me
>women are more open with me
>women are more touchy with me (non sexual)
>my guy friends stopped including me in "guy talk" and guys nights... obvi expected that last 1
>being weaker from estrogen, I feel more unsafe
>my biggest fear went from dying alone, and changed to:, being raped, or having someone break into my house

>>7718940
Cont.


I genuinely feel like estrogen does change the brain more so when you start younger (pre 25) since the brain is still developing until around then.

This is what I've noticed:

>went from looking and potential partners and thinking about sex

To;

>looking at potential partners and thinking about our lives together, dates we would have, what type of person he is, wondering what kind of humor he has, etc

Honestly that sounds AGP as fuck but I assure you it's true..

>>7718940
>>77189
Cont.

Idk how to explain this to men but

>cis girlfriends tell me they love me often
>in a friendly way ofc non sexual

Guy friends would never say that to other guy friends obviously.

Examples would be like:
>omg you're so funny I love you
>love you <3 see you soon
>ily girl

They'll kiss me on the cheek while doing drunk snap chats or grab my tits and tell me my bra's cute

Idk it's hard to explain, ftm's that we're normies pre trans will know what I'm talking about...

>>7717047

Okay that is one fuckin powerful pic
Sucha non-event that the Asian guy isnt taking any pics, and Asains take pics of everything!

>>7718954
Most MTFs are AGP.

I've got the same way of thinking about partners and I'm pre-HRT.

>>7719027
I came out at 5 to my mom, before I even knew what sexuality was about, that's how I know I'm not agp

>>7719089
Nice try but you can be AGP from age 4 >>7718788

>>7719110
That random person on the internet commenting on a random 4chsn thread doesn't describe my feelings or life. Transition for me is non sexual. For agps is all sexual.

>>7718954
>>looking at potential partners and thinking about our lives together, dates we would have, what type of person he is, wondering what kind of humor he has, etc
Ayy lmao. Cis female and can confirm this is true. Sex also included, of course.

>>7719134

Well atleast I know estrogen does it's job, more or less.

I'll probably think of sex more after SrS cuz anal fucking hurts

>>7719134
I am so alone :(

>>7719162

don't get srs,
on behalf of chasers everywhere

>>7719209

See the thing about chasers is that even tho they have a passing sexy trans girlfriend, they will still go on Craig's list and hunt for Crossdressing dick

I ain't fucking with chasers, I'm getting srs and then never telling anyone I'm a tranny

>>7719209
Fuck you, I don't want to use my dick or even have it.
You're not the only ones with sexual needs and desires.

>>7719123
>Transition for me is non sexual. For agps is all sexual.
You can have AGP, gender dysphoria, both or neither. People generally transition because they experience gender dysphoria, AGP or not. There is evidence for AGPs transitioning for non-sexual reasons. Medically and socially transitioning for a lengthy period of time usually makes one cease to be AGP, yet the overwhelming majority of ex-AGPs are still happier after they've transitioned and keep on living as women. If their motivation was sexual this would not be the case. Folks like Blanchard try to attribute this to AGPs experiencing a "romantic, non-sexual" love for their female self, with HRT quenching true sexual desire by lowering one's libido. While it is true that HRT lowers one's libido what is also true is that transwomen are still otherwise generally sexually active, so this is not a plausible explanation even if we disregard the absurdity of the borderline schizophrenic motives Blanchard ascribes to (ex)autogynephiles.

>>7717047
>Other women are 50/50, either extremely bitchy or really nice and friend-material.

Protip: I've learnt that if you're the prettiest one you're the one that has to open a friendly dialog, less attractive girls will find any reason to not like a pretty girl, if you're quite they'll think its cos you don't like them.

>>7719290
Can HRT change the brain to make one not agp?

Like mtf hrt

>>7719349
The person who wrote the post that other person is quoting here. I don't think that's what's happening. A key thing to note is that socially transitioning is part of what puts an end to AGP, so the prevailing hypothesis is that once you live as a woman for a hefty period of time femininity becomes a day-to-day thing for you and thus is no longer taboo. You cannot fetishize what is banal and day-to-day for long. Those who take HRT in secret but do not live as women generally do not get over their AGP.

>>7719372
Interesting...

>>7718768
Unless this: >>7717214
wasn't you, then yeah, you did. No one would think you were discussing Western women, because there is no common surgical procedure done on the genitals of Western girls for anyone to bitch about.

>>7718778
All my male friends slay regularly. Maybe it's just you.

I just avoid other people like the plague, plus I can't really go out and just pick someone up like a normie. Every potential partner requires The Talk.So I've basically only found dates through social media where I'm out, and [see avoiding people].

>>7719110
>>7719290
"AGP" is literally ANY fucking thing the tards on this shit site want it to be at any given moment. It's a fetish! It's not sexual! It's what lesbian transwomen are! No wait, you can be straight! It's late transitioners! No, wait, you can be AGP at any age!

It's like FUCKING ASTROLOGY, jesus fucking christ. It has no definition whatsoever here, no defining characteristics, the vague description is meant to apply to anyone who wants to apply it to themselves.

Literally kys if you believe and promote this shit meme.

>>7718989
i think its from the recent milo riots at that university, the left loves burning trashcans
>>7719345
oh yes, i should have added that, i'm usually really quiet and insecure arround others (doesn't matter if it's male or female).
Maybe not giving a damn about others would help, but thats unhealthy

>>7719484
>"AGP" is literally ANY fucking thing the tards on this shit site want it to be at any given moment.
Hey,
I wrote:
>>7719218

I generally agree with your criticism. The term is commonly used by people to discredit transsexuals they don't like and few give it any meaning beyond that. What I will say is that there are a lot of people who both experience dysphoria and are aroused by fantasies centered on being women and/or behaving in a stereotypically feminine fashion. Those are distinct from the fantasies normative cis women experience because some of them are completely unrelated to sex yet these people still find them arousing. Otherwise there is a large overlap. These people still experience dysphoria and are still trans. No one actually knows why so many repressed transsexuals are like that.

Promoting the meme of AGP, as in Blanchard's AGP or legbutt's shaky definition of AGP, is harmful but letting people who have these strange sexual fantasies know that it's okay and that you can still be trans even if you are like that is important. I tried to get people to adopt a different term in the past but changing a board's culture is close to impossible for one person. I still use the term AGP because then the people who need help can at least recognize it and get it.

Being a pre-transitioned transgirl myself; It honestly depends on your area and the type of people you hang around.
Speaking as a transitioning non-binary, I noticed that if the people around you are questioning and curious, atleast cut them some slack for trying to understand. Then there are people who don't mention anything about it, and whether it's because they don't realize or don't care, this tends to be the most favorable outcome when it comes to addressing my identity because i dont have to even say anything about it!
Then there are the snydes, they just can't handle your presence and will try to undermine you for everything you've got emotionally, they will tease you, mock your doings, and generally just make you not feel human.
Then there are allies.

>>7718875
>What sort of analyzing politics?
Well, that's surprisingly tough to explain. I...like knowing what's going on in the world? I'm Canadian, but I followed every minute of both Brexit and the US election and spent hours a week discussing developments with my friends. I like studying relevant theory, history, genetics and anthropology. I want to understand what we "are" as a species, where we "came from," and where we're "going."

I said I don't really trust women to discuss this with until they prove themselves, and that's because I've largely found women to only believe what is most acceptable to their peers. (This is understandable from an evolutionary POV, as women need to be "acceptable" to the tribe so they are not cast out, as they/their children won't survive without help. Men can be more independent.) They typically don't collect books on the relevant topics. My female roommates primarily read fiction I find frivolous. Can't express how little I care about capeshit, Grey's Anatomy and that new Archie-comic thing.

>What is it that they say and how would they change?
If you've seen basically any of the MGTOW or PUA stuff, it's similar (though they're not either). Sort of viewing women as a bizarre species they have to tolerate interacting with. I don't even think some of the less cynical theories about how women operate are wrong; it's just weird feeling like an accidental undercover spy sometimes or something.

>I think plenty of MtFs and /r9k/ posters take the exact opposite view!
Yes, and that's strange to me. The first thing is emasculating and embarrassing. The second thing is emasculating and DEGRADING. I don't know why you'd pick the second thing over the first...though I guess it wouldn't be degrading if you were literally a girl. But I can't see that as a "grass is greener" thing, since I literally had that opportunity and found it horrific,

>>7718875

[cont]
>That's pretty awful. Other examples of bias like that in school or as a kid/adolescent?
Hmm, not off the top of my head. I think my experience was that as a boy, I was expected to sink or swim (with little empathy for my failure if I "sank"), but as a girl I was treated like a goddamned idiot. Neither were good; I think the former may be worse in terms of long-term consequences if it harms a boy's academic advancement. But the latter thing also wasn't great, since there's a real psychological toll from always being treated like a silly, helpless child.

Sex-segregated activities often resulted in being shunted to the side as a girl while boys performed the "real" activities. E.g. in gym class, the girls were often pulled off to the corner, handed inferior equipment with no instructions on how to play with it, and then left alone to do whatever. The boys would go play an actual game. The girls would end up frustrated, and sitting down in the grass doing their nails or something (because why bother?) and then the [male] gym teachers would say, "See? Girls don't even like sports. Why bother have them taking this class?"

It was just bullshit all around.

>How would you have taken advantage of it if you were more comfortable as a girl?
Had more sex! Especially at the "barely legal" age where I could have milked it for all it was worth.

...Or maybe I wouldn't have. Because I don't really like the idea of sex before marriage. I don't know, it's all "what ifs".

>>7719540
Your post there is a prime example of what I'm talking about. So now your definition of AGP is "sexual fantasies I find weird"? Do you REALLY believe that cis women don't have fetishistic sexual fantasies? Oh my god, fuck off.

>>7717458
Is BJD fairly common with ftm's? I feel like I know too many for it to be a coincidence.

>>7719657
>googles "BJD collection"
>CREEPY HORROR SHOW pops up

WHAT THE FUCK

>>7719655
You're not listening. Normative cis women are generally not turned on by imagining themselves as waitresses, secretaries or ballerinas. Those things might be featured in a sexual fantasy, sure, but for cis women what is hot is the sex, being with a partner or things leading up to that. "AGPs" are aroused by being feminine in sex-unrelated situations. They might also share other kinds of fantasies with cis women, which is only normal for trans folks, but normal cis women are not normally aroused by just being stereotypically feminine if there is no partner or sex in the fantasy.

i feel like my being born male has only ever advantaged me, except romantically. i get that i'm a lil too pudgy for a lot of people, but even the fucking butt ugliest girls i know get hit on. i would kill for someone to show some interest in me first so i don't have to spend 30 minutes at the bar working up the courage to talk to you and drink myself into a stupor when nothing comes of it

>>7719679
Yes, that's right. Cis people never masturbate to being idealized versions of themselves. Filtering your stupid ass now.

>>7716424
Funny you should say that. I always get treated like a child (26, male presenting mtf) so at least I won't have to worry about that...

>>7719484
wasn't me you tranny freak

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>>7719657
Depends on your sample. I'm the only one I know that does.

>>7719673
I'm talking about pic related, not them weirdass uncanny valley ones

>>7716100
Well now as a woman i suck dicks and everyone is fine with it. Back when i was a dude no one liked me sucking dicks

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>>7716100
Straight up response is i get treated dumber and weaker as a girl. Like no male even listens to me anymore, if i try to get intellectually involved with a man in conversation i get put down or shushed. On the flipside i get to totally share my feelings more around women, like they are way way more open with me than before.

>>7722167
That pic is meant to imply transition gets you treated with sexism, but the author unconsciously reveals more than she meant to. Would you trust a woman in a skirt to know about mechanics, any more than a guy with a briefcase and tie?

There are stereotypes, there is truth in them, and one of them is that women including mtfs are good at assuming sexism when the truth is a different and true stereotype they haven't even considered.

>>7722132
pls suck my dick

>>7716100
>I think you guys have basically been in both pair of shoes and are thus the only people who can give honest answers

You are wrong. They have been, are and will be on one pair of shoes only. Get rid of that false idea of trans feeling and thus experiencing life as both their biological sex and their desired sex: it's all fabricated, a fantasy.

>>7717451
>My family went from wanting to kick me out, "it's tough love, you have to learn to make it on your own!" to insisting I stay with them indefinitely
I'm beyond jealous.

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>>7717451
>My family went from wanting to kick me out, "it's tough love, you have to learn to make it on your own!" to insisting I stay with them indefinitely

Translation: Once you start chopping off body parts they realize you need constant supervision and are a danger to yourself and possibly others.

FTM: I'm not afraid to walk around alone anymore and I get treated with more respect. On the flip side, women are less trusting of me. But I think they're kinda crazy anyway so it's not much of a loss for me.

>>7722424
there's still a difference in how other people treat you based on the gender they see you as, even if your own perception and mindset stay the same. even the most liberal sjws of them all will admit that.

>>7722424
That's why I didn't write "you are the opposite sex now", but "you are perceived as the opposite sex". Because I honestly think they aren't the opposite sex. I wasn't asking how it feels like as the opposite sex, but how people and society treat you differently.

>>7722551
I know, women have good reasons to act like they do, but being treated like a thirsty creep can be so frustrating.

>>7717119
You still have a prostate, you know. Even if you were intact, prostate orgasms are stronger than any possible penile orgasm. Stronger as in, you could be seeing stars and have to rest for 10 minutes after the deed.

Being circumcised doesn't mean you can't ever experience a mind-blowing full-body orgasm.

>>7722886
Would you justify female circumcision by saying women still have a vagina?

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>>7722886
>you could be seeing stars and have to rest for 10 minutes after

bottom fags actually believe this

>>7723573
Having a prostate doesn't mean male circumcision is okay, it means you don't need to get suicidally depressed and grovel because you think you can't ever experience a mind-blowing orgasm.

>>7718738
>>7719484
>downplay female circumcision
You misunderstand >>7717214

Some female circumcision is worse than the standard male circumcision, some is about the same, and some is much less severely damaging.

However, the laws banning "FGM" not only ban all of these, they also ban making a pinprick that doesn't even draw blood and leaves no permanent damage.

Doing this was proposed by the AAP, the same organization that supports male circumcision, as a compromise for immigrants from cultures that perform female circumcision.

This proposal was acceptable to the immigrant communities, but there was outcry against it and it is illegal and considered mutilation, although it leave no scar or permanent effect.

Unlike male circumcision, which is common and legal.

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I want to thank everyone here who gave serious answers and asked serious questions a lot. The thread has been interesting and insightful, just as I hoped it would be. I think I gained some real understanding and insight in a topic that people are misinformed by lots of polemic or partially blind about. Totally worth it asking on here.

Thanks for the ride you sweethearts. I´m off to /fit/ and /his/ again.

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>all the mtfs talking about being treated like a celebrity after transition, with men constantly checking them out
>all I get is the occasional creepy black guy hitting on me

>>7726126
actually, wait, a cute tomboy gave me her number when I was cashiering once
i feel like she was a chaser tho
hmm...
a drunk guy who was mildly cute at a bar once, creeped on me pretty hard, but thats beer goggles

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>>7726126
sissy white boi

>>7726162
>get hit on by cute tomboy
>she must be a chaser!

>>7726239
Never thought /lgbt/ would redpill me on African Islamist militants...

>>7719089
>>7719110
>>7719123
AGP signs are well known to start before the idea is sexualized. Don't just go off memes on /tttt/.

>>7735661
>/tttt/
You're the one who believes in bullshit thoroughly rejected by WPATH because it was in a bunch of (now-discredited) papers using flawed methodologies. You're no better than the memesters you deride. Please fuck off.

>>7719609
What kind of details did you find interesting about those events?

>This is understandable from an evolutionary POV, as women need to be "acceptable" to the tribe so they are not cast out, as they/their children won't survive without help. Men can be more independent.
Women are genetically a "safe bet" on reproduction while men are more of a competitive gamble for genes to get passed on.

>I don't even think some of the less cynical theories about how women operate are wrong; it's just weird feeling like an accidental undercover spy sometimes or something.
I'd like to hear more about this.

>The first thing is emasculating and embarrassing. The second thing is emasculating and DEGRADING.
If you're able to see yourself as a girl, you won't mind either. You found it horrific because you couldn't see yourself as a girl.

>>7719620
That kind of sex-segregation is horrible. It encourages gender roles that the kids will them adopt and deprives them of opportunities, which further enforces segregation. The more GNC the child is makes it even worse.

>Neither were good; I think the former may be worse in terms of long-term consequences if it harms a boy's academic advancement. But the latter thing also wasn't great, since there's a real psychological toll from always being treated like a silly, helpless child.
If they were treated the same, then I think it would become a happy medium, not the no empathy sink or swim that or the being treated like an idiot until you learn helplessness. Then it would be psychologically better for both.

>>7716353
Heh, I know plenty of women who don't do this, and much more men who do. But, that being said, when you meet a woman who does, it's carried to the nth degree. Two people in particular, my mother, and my 1st roommate. They just babble for hours about nothing, but what makes meters worse, is they always speak as if they're building up to something, and just cut short, before they even get a story.
>So there's this girl at my school...
Yeah?
>Yeah
...fucking wild, man.

My mother, is the worst about not finishing a single solitary sentence. It's always "can you hand me the?" Or "so I ran into. And they said they saw your"

>>7719372
>A key thing to note is that socially transitioning is part of what puts an end to AGP
But I want to keep it...

>Those who take HRT in secret but do not live as women generally do not get over their AGP.
Has this happened?

>>7716100
People aren't taken less seriously because they are women, they are taken less seriously because they act like women. Women confuse this for sexism when it's just treating individuals according to how they act.

>>7719620
>Hmm, not off the top of my head. I think my experience was that as a boy, I was expected to sink or swim (with little empathy for my failure if I "sank"), but as a girl I was treated like a goddamned idiot. Neither were good; I think the former may be worse in terms of long-term consequences if it harms a boy's academic advancement. But the latter thing also wasn't great, since there's a real psychological toll from always being treated like a silly, helpless child.
>Sex-segregated activities often resulted in being shunted to the side as a girl while boys performed the "real" activities. E.g. in gym class, the girls were often pulled off to the corner, handed inferior equipment with no instructions on how to play with it, and then left alone to do whatever. The boys would go play an actual game. The girls would end up frustrated, and sitting down in the grass doing their nails or something (because why bother?) and then the [male] gym teachers would say, "See? Girls don't even like sports. Why bother have them taking this class?"
Why are schools such sexist crap?

>>7752066
I've noticed this before. How do girls not realize?