Racial Identity v Gender Identity

This question has literally never been answered to me. Not even by my trans brother's counsellors when my family went in to talk etc.

>>7593288
i am no doctor so take this for what it is, my opinion. i'd say it has to do with the fact that race is part of a genetic baggage independent from a factor like hormones, that can be fleeting and altered. if we go by the definition that being a tranny is based on either in utero exposure or imbalances during puberty\childhood (low test, pcos, any intersex condition, you name it), then that would explain why it's a legitimate claim. race isn't something based on hormonal effects on your brain, you don't have nigger hormone exposure in the womb (that's called having a cuck father). if that isn't the actual cause of tranniness then i have no answer for you, i'm going to be honest.

>>7593288
Most, though not all,characteristics of gender (Mannerisms and the like. Not physical characteristics) are image, while racial characteristics (again, not physical ones) are learned through culture.

At least that's the best answer I could come up with on the spot.

>>7593288
Bait

>>7593288
transgenderism stems from a legitimate mental condition, gender dysphoria, that causes the victim to basically be in anguish at the sight of their own body. nobody has found a "racial dysphoria" yet but if they do, hey, I'm game.

>>7593288
Because race is (regardless of what /pol/ says) essentially a social construct. The biological basis of race (what makes blacks look different from whites, for example) is really only a few alleles here and there. The true difference between "races" lies in culture, which is dependent upon how and where you grow up, what language you speak, etc. It's more or less completely dictated by society.

The differences between genders have a much deeper biological root. There is evidence to show that MtF individuals have a brain structure that more closely resembles a female rather than a male brain. Hormones are also at play too, which further complicate the issue - this is not a factor in race. You even have some people who are intersex and are literally trapped between genders on a genetic level.

Long story short, gender has a biological basis which race does not, which makes the argument for people being born with the "wrong" gender more palatable from a scientific standpoint. However, if people like Rachel Dolezal and Shaun King want to pretend like they're black from a cultural perspective, more power to them, I guess. But it's not the same as the transgender argument.

>>7593397
Inate*

>>7593369
>hormones
Does that mean a trans isn't legitimate if they have normal hormones?

>>7593397
Culture also influences gender characteristics. They are the same.

>>7593413
Good argument right here.

>>7593422
I would argue gender is largely a social construct. Both gender and race have notable physical differences. You're arbitrarily deciding what physical differences justify the creation of an identity which means you are no more right than someone who decides that racial differences qualify.

Also if you require them to be more different, wouldn't people who identify as animals be more legitimate than regular trannies? This argument is nonsense.

>>7593415
>legitimate
Why is it not legitimate when someone feels anguish about their race. There are cases of racial dysphoria, you're making the minority argument already addressed in the OP

>>7593288
> I'm liberal and tolerant

>>>/tumblr/

>>7593874
I'll go where i like thanks, faggot.

So gender is in the brain, we can see that women's brains are not only much smaller than men's, they have much less myelin. We see trans women have brains more similar to women's brains, so it makes sense they feel female.

Race and racial identity are not hard coded in the brain. They are a mixture of society and locational factors. A black person in american has a much different concept of what it means to be black than a black person in Africa.

In children we see differences in males and females as early as 3 months (this may be because mothers spend less time looking at male children and are more likely to start hitting male children earlier and more often) we do not see much difference between black and white infants.

So for this reasons you can be female if you have a male body but a female brain, but you can't be black if you have a white body because there is no such thing as a black brain.

>>7593874
Tumblr is anything but tolerant.

>>7593894
Show me the study that says transwomen have brains similar to women. I am sure that there are physiological differences between race brains.

Would you call a transwoman with a brain inadequately similar to a woman's illegitimate?

>>7593894
Trans people don't have female brains. Their brains are always more similar to male brains, even if they contain less myalin than some other males. There is no causal relationship.

All identity is psychological, and you are arbitrarily picking physiological characteristics that already conform to your preexisting worldview.

It's not a matter of choosing to identify as a different gender. Trans people have a neurological problem. Their brain was not built for a person of their sex.

>>7593954
do you only count mtfs as trans people or do ftms have male brains?

>>7593831
You've obviously studied nothing about biological gender differences. Particularly in terms of behavior. There's mounting evidence to show that males and females differ on a mental level from birth - far before society has an influence on gender norms.

In terms of animals, you are aware that in utero, all humans start out as gender neutral until chromosomes dictate androgen levels, no? There's plenty of evidence to suggest that gender is NOT always cut and dry on a biological level. This is not the case with separate species, so your "hurr durr you can feel like an animal" argument is what's strawman nonsense.

>>7593954
>All identity is psychological

And what is "psychological" if not ultimately physical/biological - that it, the physiology of the brain.

It ALL comes down to neurology - which is biologically based. The fact that you like to separate "psychology" from biology - as if the brain and consciousness is something metaphysical rather than biological - shows just how uneducated you are.

>>7594237
Both are trans. Neither of them have brains more closely resembling their gender identity than their biological gender.

>>7594628
Disproven by science, but okay.

>>7594158
I didn't say choosing. The same things can be said for transracial people.

>>7594633
Source please. I love to learn. :)

Assuming there is a brain difference. Would you call a trans person who is shown to not have this difference illegitimate?

>>7594643
Not that anon - but yes. That's why the term "trutrans" exists, silly.

>>7594650
Maybe you can provide that scientific source then?

>>7593288
I have no problem with transracialism desu. Have at it. If we have any interest in being a "post-racial" society, then changing from one race to another will be a thing. Anyone who goes on about how it's "offensive" or that you need to be "loyal to your race" are being racist, no matter how much they claim otherwise. If race is really just a skin color then there should be nothing wrong with changing it, it's no worse than dyeing your hair.

>>7593369
>White people and Black people are more different to each other genetically than any two breeds of Dog.

Also on Hormones, Black people are way higher on testosterone.

Maybe we should start considering people black if they get mellanin injections, testosterone injections, plastic surgery and pretend as if their IQ is around 80

>>7593288
>>7593313
A trans woman's brain is mapped to the 'female' body due to various factors (the best explanation is a combination of epigenetics/hormonal factors during pregnancy). This has been scientifically documented.

On the other hand, a white person's brain will never be "mapped" to a black person's body. It just doesn't happen. It hasn't happened. There are no recorded instances of it happening, anecdotally or scientifically. Similarly, there's no physical mechanism for someone's brain to be mapped to the body of an 'attack helicopter' or any other erroneous analogy.

>>7593954
Please stop spreading false info.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality#Brain_structure
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/
http://transascity.org/the-transgender-brain/
There are many serious differences between the average brain of an MtF and the average brain of a cis man even before HRT. To say there's no causal relationship is nothing short of delusional

>>7593288
>As far as I can tell these are pretty much the exact same thing
Then you're not very intelligent.

Race doesn't have a part in the brain, nor can you suddenly change ethnicity within the womb. It's set from the start, what your skin color is going to be.

Gender isn't decided until estrogen/testosterone washes in the womb.

>>7596254
that would do yeah, pretty much not recognizable from a nigger

>>7593903
That's why he's supposed to go there.
Generally when people list off their positive attributes when it's not needed they're lying.

>>7595422
Kewl kewl. Are they allowed to say 'my nigga'?

What about transspecies? What about transattackhelicopters?

>>7596392
I need to see a source on that. All the studies I have read show far more brain similarities to their biological sex. Because you know, that's what they are.

>>7596407
but MtF brains are still far closer to a cis brain than a woman's brain.

>>7596407
>to say there is no causal relationship is nothing short of delusional
>posts links showing weak correlation
>correlation =/= causation
>delusional =/= scientifically prudent

So does that mean you considet any MtF without a difference in brain structure to be illegitimate?

>>7596413
Why is occurrence in the whom the deciding factor you bigot?

>>7596470
It is needed though because anytime this is brought up the person is called a baiting bigot.

>>7593288
>As far as I can tell these are pretty much the exact same thing

found your problem, you dont know shit about shit

>>7596392
Except it hasn't really. Female and male people do not have vastly different brains. 94% of brains fall in-between the "ideal" model of the two sexes. It's why they aren't using brain scans to diagnose transexuality. We simply do not know enough about human brains to do that. Current studies just cite that trans brains fall in-between the two sexes, like the vast majority of cis brains out there.

>>7597885
Trans brains are distinguishable from cis brains of either sex.

>>7597827
not only that, but what if someone displayed as a boy when younger, but shows up as a woman when trans?

What would THAT mean????

>>7597894
Not all trans brains. Are you saying that those that don't fall in between are illegitimate? There are many cis brains that fall in between with major overlap in the data between MtF and cis.

>>7597901
It would mean thickness of subcortical areas doesn't have a causal relationship to being a trans.

>>7597879
How about you try making a convincing argument.

You're probably just waaaay too correct to engage in discussion.

>>7597816
Literally doesn't matter. The fact that they measurably differ from the cis male brains proves that there is a biological cause for being transgender. The same cannot be said for transniggers.

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>>7597807
you seem to be ignoring the fact that the human embryo is asexual and hormone levels at various key points in time push it in one direction or another.

race doesn't start out in a mutable state. it is hardcoded from the beginning.

>>7597982
You seem to be ignoring the fact that is it based entirely on how people feel about themselves, so how it comes about is irrelevant

>>7597946
>cause
Nope they only showed a small correlation.

If you were to claim it is causal then you must also be claiming that all of the many trans without this structural difference are illegitimate.

>>7598045
You seem to be ignoring the fact that how people feel about themselves is based on their biology and their socialization, so how it comes about is integral.

>>7598056
>trying to figure out how a computer looks by looking at it.

the science isn't advanced enough to make claims one way or another but the most likely hypothesis is that hormones at key stages of in utero development change brain structures in ways that can't be reversed.

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>>7597816
>>7597885
>>7593288
>>7597926
>>7598045
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0083947

Cite it then because all the grey matter studies prove you're just another trailer trash playing doctor

>>7598056
You mean a causal relationship with hormone utero levels and all the 2d:4d studies back it

Why do you preach medicine when you flunked out? Are you delusional?

>>7593841
Gender dysphoria is widespread in all cultures and countries

Racial dysphoria is about as common as otherkin

Gender dysphoria has millions of cases, maybe tens of millions (out of the billions of humans)

Racial dysphoria/envy has a handful of known cases

Prevalence lends legitimacy and leads to study. We know now that people with gender dysphoria actually have different brain structure from people without it.

>>7598114
>biology.

So trans people without the biological differences mentioned above are invalid?

>>7598938
Sounds like you're paranoid you don't have a trutrans brain tbhfam

OP here.

Very interesting info and I'm very happy to see some studies referenced. Thanks very much for your input. This gives me something I can talk with my dad about who is struggling to understand and cope with my MtF sibling.

I will have a proper read through all sources when I get home from work tonight.

Take care, everyone.

>>7598968
Get out hypocritical liberal. They should have banned you on site.

We can do without your kind of subhuman just fine.

>>7598985
What an agro cunt. Stay mad. Can't wait till your blood pressure kills you m8.

>>7593288
you cant be black on a whim cause its biology

you can be a fucking nigger tho, cause its more social/cultural

nice pic. gymnasts are hot af

>>7593288
the difference is that there are a lot more people with gender issues than racial issues, and as a result need someone to toss under the bus. ("we're not as degenerate as THEM!!")
any argument used to discredit racial issues is the same as an argument used to discredit gender issues, just with a few words swapped

racial dysphoria is real.

>>7599213
Hi pedo, and good bye.
Everyone be sure to report >>7593288 for shitposting and drawing ban evaders and kiddy didlers to the site

>>7599213
Post studies then. Others are right, you're probably the CP troll >>7599213

it's because whites know that if they try to pretend that they're *actually black, the lash they'd face from some black people is enough to get them harassed and beaten up. So instead, they'll just go on with their white guilt (which they've been brainwashed into feelin).

>>7597907
>Not all trans brains. Are you saying that those that don't fall in between are illegitimate?
Yes. They're most likely people with AGP who took their fetish too far.

>>7599283
What's AGP?

>>7599233
>>7599244
Why do you think he is a pedo?

>>7599188
Isn't gender also biology?

>>7599233
>>7599244
seek help