Is there a major psychological difference between MtFs and CIS

The same goes for a lot of other interests too, it seems to rather be a mix of female and male, rather than predominantly male or predominantly male.

Doesn't that mean, it's rather in between than one or the other?

Liking video games isn't an innate masculine trait. Almost every MtF spent their childhood as a boy, remember.

Also video games give you escapism, and competitive video games in particular allow you to be accepted in a community, and to dedicate yourself to something and be rewarded for it. You can see how that might be appealing to a person who doesn't feel comfortable with themselves and is struggling with depression and identity issues.

>>7539043
Because MtFs are men in dresses and females are well, female?

not that hard anon

>>7539043
you'll note that trans girls polarize roughly into two groups:
>those who act like cis girls with a couple tomboy hobbies
>those who act like cis guys who wear dresses
this rough groupage has been commented on and researched many, many times over the course of decades, most infamously in blanchard's hsts/agp typology
both are fairly likely to play video games, just like cis girls (it's pretty unisex for an apparently male interest), but one plays them the way cis girls do on average and the other plays them the way cis guys do on average

>>7539129
Ehmm, except that women and men function differently when it comes to how they commit their time, I don't buy this socialization bullshit, men are more likely to take risks and pursue "male" profession even when accounting for society, it's the opposite of what you'd expect actually, the sex difference in fields like engineering and nursing is bigger in Norway than a country like India, precisely because men/women are free to pursue their interests.

I'd argue the same goes for gaming, I don't see why it would be any different.

If I was a betting man, I'd bet the choice of profession of MtFs is more similar to that of men than that of women

>>7539148
>(it's pretty unisex for an apparently male interest),
Citations needed, everyone points to those broad "studies" that factor in candy crush.

If you look at competative RTS, competative FPS the demographic is 90%+ male. Women are more likely to play RPGs or MMOs.

>>7539197
>Women are more likely to play RPGs or MMOs.
To note, even in those genres males are still 60-70% of the playerbase.

Yes, "technically" gaming IS universal, but if you actually take a look at what kind of gaming, especially competative, it's male dominated. If we account for Candy Crush and mobile games, yes then "technically" women are actually the majority of "gamers".

TLDR: Women don't play competative multiplayer games, and the ones that do, don't amount to much because they don't dedicate as much time and commit themselves

>>7539189
You do realize MtFs don't have the same social safety net as cis women, right? On top of that, the often necessary medical procedures, such as SRS or FFS are expensive, and since you generally want them asap, bad paying job is not an option.

Video games, at least serious playing of them (4+ hours per day), aren't a male thing, their a social reject thing. They are a way for those who get no acknowledgement in society to get acknowledgement. If you a kid is a loser at school, has few friends, is ignored by everyone or bullied, they have a hole in their life where they want to be socially accepted by they can't get that feeling.

Then video games come along, with stories and activities that give them positive, rewarding feelings. "Good job! You killed that boss that was hard! Have this reward for being such an awesome person!", "Good job! You solved that puzzle! You are now on level 37, which is considered to be expert level at problem solving!"

It just happens that more males are social rejects than females, because males have to have confidence and high self-esteem and work for their social acceptance, while females just have to not be ugly or fat. Same reason why so many girl gamers (the ones that play many hours a day, not the ones who play to get attention "I'm such a geek, tehe!") are fat and/or ugly, or at least are social rejects.

There's also a divide in MtF who are gamers, and that's mostly to do with their childhood and whether they were social rejects or not. Some MtF were always popular as guys, and were never gamers. Some MtF were social rejects, but transitioned early enough to gain the complimentary female social acceptance thereby avoiding the need for confidence and self-esteem and never really turned to gaming. Some were social rejects through their adolescence, became gamers, and then transitioned after the fact. Some of those continue to be social rejects (either because they don't pass, or because they can't overcome their anxiety and accept the free female social acceptance) and some become socially accepted and drop gaming as a hobby over time. And the final group is those who transitioned early, but just never passed or lived in an environment that didn't accept them as female.

>>7539189
>If I was a betting man, I'd bet the choice of profession of MtFs is more similar to that of men than that of women
Would be an interesting study, except nobody ever will conduct it because it will ruin the narrative

>>7539224
That's a terrible argument, it's a pretty long stretch, do you have any evidence to support such a wild assertion?

>>7539043
a lot of the time, mtfs are just better because they are total recluses; videogames are just a hobby that naturally spawns from isolation.
On top of that, when you spend all your time doing X, you are naturally going to be incredibly good at X.

>>7539228
that study has been conducted many times over
it comes up with the conclusion you'd expect from >>7539148
one group have feminine jobs with the occasional computer-related career, the other are in computer-based fields with a few other masculine jobs

>>7539237
How's that a long stretch when you yourself said that women pursue less masculine jobs when their financial situation is good?

>>7539226
Your narrative falls apart when you consider that women don't hit high ranks even proportionally in games like SCII or CS. They make up 10% of the playerbase, soo reasonably they should make up 10% of the top players, yet transgendered MtFs make up less than 0.1% and make up several orders of magnitude more players at the top than women.

If your assertion is correct these MtFs and these women had similar upbringings which brought them into gaming, if you were correct that, that were the only factor you'd be seeing at least a few top players be female, except that it literally never happens, even though there are 100s times less MtFs in these scenes, they make up infinitely more top players >>>>>>>>>0


Soo the only reasonable conclusion is that while FtMs might share more traits with women than the average "CIS" men, they most certainly still share more traits with men, than a "CIS" woman.

Meaning they don't quite a 100% belong in either.

>>7539257
No, you are assuming that having to pay for pills equates to starvation if you don't take a job.

The truth is that whatever gender or sex you are, you have monetary goals to buy yourself something, both women and men to different degrees depending on the individual, and this doesn't significantly impact job choice.

conscientiousness is also more prone to men, so you are inadvertently arguing my point that there are in fact some differences.

>>7539148
>>7539251
Well I wish you were capable of actually presenting your arguments in an intelligable fashion, because if you are citing something, you are doing a really terrible job of it.

I'm not even saying that you are necessarily lying or what you are saying is untrue, but you did a terrible job of explaining what you meant, using less LGBT slang and being more clear, might help you get your point across

>those who act like cis guys who wear dresses

For instance, I can decipher what this is supposed to mean, but it's a very unclear way of presenting your argument. Your argument shouldn't be left to interpretation

>>7539271
Starvation leads to death. Untreated gender dysphoria leads to death. Doesn't seem too far off.

>>7539259
Every MtF at the top level of gaming falls into the category of later transitioner group that went through their adolescence as social rejects. The fact that only those kinds show up at the top makes sense because testosterone is a factor in competitiveness, and all those top MtF experienced a lot of testosterone, but it didn't make them gamers.

But this isn't about the top level gamers, this is about who are gamers in general. The question was "why are so many more mtf than cisfemales gamers?", and the reason is because of social acceptance and the fact that males are less socially accepted. If you want to ask "why are so many more men at a high competative level than females?", then that's a completely different question that has nothing to do with being a gamer in general because you've eliminated non-gamers from the equation. The answer to that question specifically is testosterone.

If there was a sizable number of early transitioning (starting age 10-11) FtM that were given testosterone at that early age, who were also social rejects through their adolescence because of being male, I suspect that a good number of those would show similar numbers of top level gaming performance as cis males.

>>7539320
How early utero? Pre-puberty? Puberty?

You are making a lot of unproven assumptions.

Also aren't you admitting in a way that I am correct? Considering that we don't have enough "10-11" year old transitioners to know if you hypothesis is correct, and you claim I'm right when it comes to the trans population we already have to work with?

It's not a guarantee the next generation will be different, if it's the next generation is the same, your hypothesis will be proven wrong.

>>7539303
I'm not saying this might not factor in, but it's an absurd conclusion to reach without evidence. What you need to do is find correlating behaviors that lead to depression and therefore suicide in the "CIS" population when it comes to money in wealthy societies and see if CIS women with said afflictions mirror MtFs.

>>7539354
>mirror MtFs.
when it comes to job choice*

I know this is 4chan and all, but the answer really is autism. Top gamers are far more likely than the general public to have some degree of autism, and autism has been statistically linked to gender dysphoria.

How are videogames a male interest, it's like saying computers are a male interest. Which is mysoginistic as fuck and implies women aren't smart enough to calculate variables in real time and press buttons accordingly. You're a nigger, go play with dolls and do your hair you plastic pile of trash. You won't ever surmount to having a real hobby due to your neat little m:f boxes. Idk wtf a gender biased interest even is, or is this the 80's where women stay in the kitchen and men do construction?

>>7539354
Around the age of puberty is when male and female social acceptance really starts to change, which is why I say around age 10-11.

And as I said, the original question was comparing cisfemale gaming habits to mtf gaming habits, and I was saying it had little to do with being male or female biologically (how their own mind works and the habits they form) and more to do with it socially (how others treat them and how they respond).

It's a matter of causation vs correlation. You see more cismale gamers (gamers being those who prefer gaming to social interaction) than cisfemale gamers and assume that gaming must just be an activity that males gravitate towards, but you're missing a step in between. It isn't that males gravitate towards gaming, it's that social rejects gravitate towards gaming, and more males are social rejects.

If gaming attracted males specifically and you took a group of socially accepted cismales and socially rejected cisfemales, you should find that more of the cismales are gamers than the cisfemales, but you wouldn't. Instead you'd find that more of the cisfemales are gamers than the cismales because gaming is activity that is done in lieu of social interaction, not because of gender.

Given that, and the fact that males are more likely to be social rejects, it makes sense that proportionally more mtf who were presenting male through adolescence are going to be gamers than cisfemales. It's just not directly related to whether they are male or female, cis or trans.

>>7539403
Ehh, I happen to not play games very much actually, I definitely used to play a lot of RTS, but considering I can count the games I spent more than 5 hours on on my fingers, I don't even consider myself a gamer.

Women, play different types of games, if you are going to deny objective reality, go ahead. And I don't think there is any specific societal "pressure" that makes it more acceptable for women to play RPGs and MMOs over RTS.

Maybe, just maybe. Millions of years of evolution made men and women slightly different on a psychological level, it could be possible, right?

>>7539447
Of course not, not possible at all. I mean men do have 40-60% higher upper body strength, tend to be taller by a few inches, higher body mass, but when it comes to anything related to brain;

IT. IS. OUT. OF. THE. QUESTION. WE. ARE. EXACTLY. THE. SAME!

To be serious though, when it comes to MtFs, I'm not trying to be an asshat here, you can identify as whatever you want, but it would be intellectually dishonest to not investigate the difference between Men, women and transgendered people, I don't think it necessarily decredits anything.

In western cultures, sure.

>>7539447
We're the same species you fucking nogger. Evolution didn't make us different, you're a complete retard. Brainwashing made us different. You fall for the "im a girl" meme you're a fucking loser too. Maybe you should pick your interests yourself instead of letting media pick them for you, I know a girl who's a platinum Lol player and is studying to be a docotor. Guess who's still looking for a sugar daddy and painting her nails senpai.

That's right: you. Fucking low class floor-peasant, why don't you try and take a hike a bit up the pyramid before you embarrass yourself with gender classes.

Lol interests should only differ on a personal basis, otherwise we're surrendering to the fact that we're mere animals and are controlled by our genetic makeup. Instead of being a gender stereotype which is something real women hate, why not be something cool. I play videogames draw and pretty myself up sometimes because it feels rewarding to me, try avoiding television for a while and the sauce and the smoke, you'll find that you're a real person too.

>>7539466
STOP TRYING TO FIND DIFFERENCES, THAT'S DIVIDE AND CONQUER, JUST BELIEVE IN INDIVIDUALISM AND THE TOGETHERNESS OF OUR SPECIES. IF WE KEEP INSTILLING THIS RHETORIC UPON EACHOTHER WE'RE GONNA GET NOWHERE AS A PEOPLE.

MEN DON'T HAVE MORE UPPER BODY STRENGTH, PEOPLE WHO WORK OUT HAVE MORE UPPER BODY STRENGTH, JUST STOP WITH THIS FUCKING OUTDATED MUMBOJUMBO NONSENSE, YOU'RE SOUNDING LIKE A 40yo HON!

ANYTIME I SEE SOMEONE AGREEING WITH THREADS LIKE THIS I'M GONNA ASSUME IT'S SOMEONE WELL OVER THE AGE OF 40!!!!!!!!!!!!!! REEEEEEE@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

>>7539148
>tfw I play vidya because all my friends play vidya, and I usually play supporting roles
wooo~

>>7539197
if you look at mobas, women are far more likely to play either mid as a control mage or support

>>7539493
You clearly don't understand how evolution and sexual dimorphism work

I don't know if this poster is the dumbest person on the planet or a brilliant troll.

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>>7539493
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_dimorphism

This must be the dumbest thing I've read all day.

>>7539189
nobody wants to be a nurse in norway because it's very difficult to achieve 100% position and still the pay is very low. Women getting into nursing are the ones who failed school or have a mother who is a nurse.
Engineering is biased from the start, as women have a harder time getting jobs (they have to be hired by a man and they don't want to hire women because reasons). It's the same with traditionally male occupations like welding, construction and fishing.

>>7539554
>Engineering is biased from the start, as women have a harder time getting jobs (they have to be hired by a man and they don't want to hire women because reasons). It's the same with traditionally male occupations like welding, construction and fishing.
This is a literal lie.

This could not be further from the truth, stop lying. I chose these specific professions because I know Norway specifically tried to push more males into Nursing and more females into Engineering by paying for their study and an affirmative action-esque system with preferential treatment.

Do you know what happened? Temporarily things got better, but after the buzz wore off the numbers went back to normal.

Would you stop lying please? What you are said was a 100% without a doubt false.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVaTc15plVs

>>7539554
>>7539577
You've been caught on a lie, what now?

Either do the research or don't present your misinformed opinions as definitive.

When I make an assumption, I let it be known I don't know for sure, soo that if somebody points out definitive evidence I can alter my view, however you just out of the blue made a completely provably untrue statement without a second thought, no matter how I look at it you are an anti-intellectual dishonest fuck.

>>7539554
Women can get hired as engineers as easy as men, maybe even easier with diversity quotas and HR departments being 98% female who favor female candidates. The only thing against female engineers is that small/medium sized business owners see the risk in hiring young women into crucial, high paying positions because they are more likely to leave the workforce to start a family.

If they had the choice between two equally qualified candidates, but one candidate had a 1/4 chance that they would leave, taking all the time and money invested into them by the business, in the next 5-8 years, which do you think they'd be more likely to hire? Which do you think the business would be more likely to invest in? Which do you think they be willing to pay more? It won't make a big difference for a massive company that employs hundreds of engineers, but a small company that has 2-5 engineers on staff, losing up to 50% those would be devastating to their business.

>>7539650
bless diversity quotas in IT, all trannies thank you

>>7539660
At least trannies aren't at risk of up and leaving without notice. Bless trannies' inability to get pregnant.

>>7539380
From what I've heard, both gamers and people with gender dysphoria are more likely to be schizoid, not autist.

>>7539189
>men are more likely to take risks and pursue "male" profession
>I'd argue the same goes for gaming, I don't see why it would be any different.

Lol because playing video games for a living is comparable to engineering or crab fishing. There is absolutely no risk involved, that's why MtFs get addicted, because they're terrified of going outside.

Also autism.

>>7539043
1.The external world does not validate them.
2.They hate their bodies, hate people seeing them.
3. They can relate to socially anxious males who also play games. This can give them a social life and a sense of normalcy while they are closeted/egged.
4. They tend to fail out of school, so they have lots of time to practice.

I think it's also about access more MTF's have better access to video games and are probably more shut in making them play more.

>>7539043
cuz mtfs are biologically male in every way
that "trannys have a female brain!" thing is just a meme

>>7540932
A meme supported by science, but okay. Also the studies never implied that their brains are "totally female" in the exact same way as a cis woman, just that their brains are more similar to cis women's than to cis men's. So it's possible that certain things like this slipped through the cracks, but they are still essentially women.

>>7540962
Are they though?

I've seen the cat scans, but how do you quanity if it's more similar to one sex or the other. Seems impossible to do.

All we can say is that MtFs share certain traits with males and others with females

>>7541059
Most of the brain is not sexually dimorphic, so it's not like the entire rest of a trans woman's brain is "male" or whatever.

I mean, I'm just gonna speak anecdotally here. The earlier GID is treated, the better they pass, the more they're socialized as female, the more they seem to settle into what's "natural" for them and come off more as women. I think this disease is just insidious as hell and turns a lot of trans girls into people they're not. It's honestly kind of terrifying on an existential level to think about someone having to look like something they're not, and being treated that way by strangers, it would obviously make a normal person go insane. So I'm not surprised if they don't end up "quite right".

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>>7539189
>If I was a betting man, I'd bet the choice of profession of MtFs is more similar to that of men than that of women
Probably, but not because we are men. Being trans is expensive, and our families abandon us, so we need to do everything possible to make all the money we can.

Personally, I'm in an engineering program. I despise every second of it. Math and science was always my weakest area in school, it bores me, being forced to do it makes me want to cry. My hope at this point is that I get a decent guy because the gender balance is so lopsided in this program, then maybe he'd love me enough that I could go back to school for a bit and get a degree I don't hate. I'm super envious of cis girls who can actually study something that doesn't make them feel existential dread about their future.

But I'm trans and need to be prepared to support myself alone, so I have no other options.

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Just going to leave this here again.

>>7541129
This.
I don't want to be a mechanical engineer but I want FFS before I'm 28.

Me
>social recluse as a kid because I changed schools often
>was liked and popular, just not in any cliques and had no close friends
>was always a casual gamer
>stopped playing video games entirely as an adult, pre-transition
>was an attractive enough guy
>am a hot girl and I pass
>preaently have no real friends or relationships

Where do I fall?

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>>7539224
>You do realize MtFs don't have the same social safety net as cis women, right?

Because if you have a vagina, if you lose your job or fail out of school, you can easily find a man to take care of you, marry you and give you a place to live, in exchange for giving him sex.

Can't do that if you don't have a vagina. And neovaginas don't cut it.

>>7542393
>am a hot girl and pass

I dont think you get to be the judge of that

>>7542303
>>7541129
>taking an engineering program you don't like

ya'll are dumb I hate most of maths and shit but computers are awesome and trannies belong in this discipline anyways

>>7539043
>IIs there a major psychological difference between MtFs and CIS Females?

I don't think so, most MtF spent their childhood as boys, it's natural they like (more than cisgirls, on average) some activities more associated with the male gender.

>>7539129
And biological girls, receive much more attention than man, so, even if they are dysphoric, it is really rare for them to be left alone, like man.

Also, the T probably makes the brain develops a little different from a biological female.

>>7539493
>otherwise we're surrendering to the fact that we're mere animals and are controlled by our genetic makeup
You're so fucking pretentious dood

>>7539466
What you said applies to race too lmao. Why would the differences affect everything, except the brain?

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>Is there a major difference between mentally ill men and regular women?
I have no idea anon but that is an interesting question

>>7540932
>in every way

They are biologically female in every way except muh chromosomes you fucktard.

>>7548463
Why wouldn't it. NO REASON.

Only because it hurts feelings that we might be different.

>>7548456
No he is just a retard that doesn't understand evolutionary biology

>>7539129
>Liking video games isn't an innate masculine trait.
neither is wearing dresses or wanting to be called female pronouns.

>>7539043
Most of them become interested in gaming along with their non trans peers, as a child or adolescent.

It really doesnt shock me that people here think you can simply be socialized into being into/good at coding. Its borderline entertaining to see them try to explain away the desire to code or going into coding as a career as merely a practicality rather than the inevitable outcome of having a robo-brain (autism)


Lol its not some wild coincidence that the majority of """"trans"""" """"girls"""" are into coding (literally the most boring, dense and purely autistic activity ever) its just autism/agp

Theyre usually transbians too... But thats definitely no coincidence either!

>>7552369
What are you implying exactly?

>>7552369
Lol and accounting, a female dominated profession, isn't boring, dense, and autistic?

Get a grip.

>>7539043
There is nothing masculine about video games

Its not a hobby that relies on testosterone and MAN BRAIN, its a hobby for losers to escape the real world
females and to some extent ftms don't have to do this because they are not as rejected and thus not as reclusive as mtfs or other males that don't live up to the male standard

>>7539380
ftms have the highest levels of autism though not mtfs, mtfs have the same autism levels as cis females

>>7539043
I dunno about anyone else but my autistic male brain (mtf) is fucking horrifying to me and causes massive dysphoria

I just thought about talking to someone and the prospect scared me because I suck at talking to people. I can't even FUCKING talk to people, unless they are proficient at talking to quiet braindead autistics.

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>>7552740
same, ftm tho

i've been essentially mute since the 7th grade

>>7552763
idk, I think there's a lot of strange thought patterns from both mtfs and ftms.

Natives recognize this a lot and used to value us immensely for our unique thoughts

now we're just autistic programmers apparently

>>7552888
>Did natives put you dumbassses on estrogen and cut your dicks off, carving up a neopussy with stone blades?
Because the antiseptic technology they had really made this practical?
Lol okay now you're just shitposting but I'll bite; yes they would sometimes make trannies into eunuchs. But more often they would just accept them into a mixed gender role because chopping your balls off without rubbing alcohol or sutures is gonna suck.

MtFs have the neuron count and density of women, but the grey/white matter amounts of men. Their brains are wired sort of half way between. FtMs, in contrast, are much closer to men on both counts. This may partially explain psychological differences.

>>7553083
Hmm you're just shitposting more it seems. I never said the tribes involved were smart for doing so, just that they recognized trannies are different and perhaps can be used in special ways. Food for thought. inb4 you respond with another shitpost 'cause you're a dumb butthurt troll

The whole "male socialization" that TERFs talk about is real, but that doesn't mean trans women aren't the victims of oppression and patriarchy.

>>7552369
That explains why AGPs are coders, but why do HSTS become whores?

>>7555399
lolololol