I don't get Transgenderism

trans women are women.

>>7502062
You literally did not answer my question. I will accept your statement given a good reason.

This shit is hella confusing for a cis person such as myself

>>7502055
Nothing. Bpesides "feel", really. They will define themselves however they want, however you are not forced to play along and they should force anyone either.

But yes, we are biologically men. I will still call myself a girl because I feel female.

>>7502128
>should
I mean shouldn't. lol

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>>7502128
>AGPs are still pushing the """""feel""""" meme
Ignore this person. Being trans (trutrans) is about recognizing innate identity, not a feeling.

People who are transgender suffer from Gender Dysphoria. Basically, for whatever reasons, the brains of people with GD developed opposite to their birth gender (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2754583/?tool=pmcentrez). Throughout history science has tried to treat this and the most successful way that offers the best (which is still shit) quality of life is to let the individual transition into the opposite gender.

More resources: http://pastebin.com/CyW1dXV8

Will they ever be cis? No. Does having a 'female' brain make them a real female? I don't know, that seems subjective.

It doesn't really hurt you and in anyway so you shouldn't care too much.

>>7502155
This makes sense

Thanks

Authenticity makes you something. It's not merely how you dress, how you act, or even how you look. It's about having all those things and a set of experiences that make you like others in that group.

An intersexed person raised as a girl, without ovaries and a fullsized vagina=woman.
A person born with a penis who had it chopped off during a bris at age 1 and was given surgery+HRT +raised like a woman=woman.

A 19 year old boy who gets his dick inverted and dresses like a girl while kn HRT=NOT A WOMAN. Girlhood is essential to womanhood. A girl goes through girlhood experiences and attitudes. As a kid, She wonders about what when/if she'll get pregnant. In middle school, she hears about other girls getting their periods and wonders when she'll get hers (even if she turns out to be intersexed she might still entertain the idea of mensuration).
MTFs want to be considered as women but they have few of the formative experiences that make a girl into a woman. The biological arguments is
are a redherring.

>>7502251
>A person born with a penis who had it chopped off during a bris at age 1 and was given surgery+HRT +raised like a woman=woman
except david reimer was decidedly not a woman
and he's far from the only reported case along those lines, mind

>>7502251
>A person born with a penis who had it chopped off during a bris at age 1 and was given surgery+HRT +raised like a woman=woman.

This is how people decide it's okay to mutilate their babies.

In the event that an awful accident like that occurs, you should only give the kid hrt/surgery/anything else if THEY say they want it. To do otherwise is to torture a child.

>>7502149
>the brains of people with GD developed opposite to their birth gender
top kek

Trans males will have SOME neurological similarities to cis males, but their brain will still resemble cis female brains in many more ways. On a brain scan, a trans female's brain will still more closely resemble a cis male's brain.

Gay men also have neurological similarities with cis females, we do not say they developed female brains because their brains still more closely resemble hetero males.

And ultimately it doesn't matter since the diagnosis of GD is amazingly subjective - you can't test for it. They don't look at these people's brains, say there are some neurological similarities to the brains of the gender they identify as, and then say "congrats you're trans." Ultimately it does come down to what the person FEELS.

>>7502055
No """""""""man"""""""" who fucks a man at all is man.

>>7502358
>On a brain scan, a trans female's brain will still more closely resemble a cis male's brain.
this is from studies that grouped together straight and non-straight trans women
studies that only include straight trans women consistently find neurofeminization
studies that don't have inconsistent results

>>7502358
Is there any citation regarding trans people having brains like their birth sex?

>>7502358
>And ultimately it doesn't matter since the diagnosis of GD is amazingly subjective - you can't test for it. They don't look at these people's brains, say there are some neurological similarities to the brains of the gender they identify as, and then say "congrats you're trans." Ultimately it does come down to what the person FEELS.

You could say the same about pain, or depression.

>>7502358
>Trans males will have SOME neurological similarities to cis males, but their brain will still resemble cis female brains in many more ways. On a brain scan, a trans female's brain will still more closely resemble a cis male's brain.
wrong

>>7502262
David Reimer was not a woman but also not a man. Probably why he killed himself.

He's also just one case with the other cases being poorly documented. Not a big sample size.
His case can probably be explained by phantom limb more than his brain prenatally 'knowing' his gender.
Infants have a high rate of phantom limb for any body part. Adults have a VERY high rate of phantom limb from amputation.
The rate of phantom limb for congenital amputees is low enough to easily be the result of extraneous social variables. like wanting to fit in. And that's the analog for transgendered people: congenital amputees who mysteriously feel like a part is missing despite having no feedback loop with that part.
The whole idea of having a 'body image' flies in the face of what neuroscientists know about the brain, epigenesis, and learning. As an infant, I flail my baby arms, this give feedback to my brain, then i flail slighlty better and better as my motor cortex figures out about the nature of my. limbs. Eventually I can reach, grasp, and push after several months of struggling to use my baby arms. At roughly this point, I have a representation of my arms that's roughly like my representation of my arms as an adult. Note that it would be impossible for this to happen without my arms getting feedback. So at 8 months if you remove my arms I'm likely going to get phantom limb as my brain think it should still send signals to that arm and anticipate responses.
How the fuck does a mental image occur in this way for a MTF? They have no vagina so there is no contraction of the smooth muscle. There is no prioperception. There is no possibility of dynamic feedback between the brain and the body part because the body part of a baby MTF is a dick not a vagina.
We should regard a trans person stating that they are 'supposed to have a vagina' like a person saying that they are 'supposed to see in sonar like a bat'

>>7502467
>David Reimer was not a woman but also not a man. Probably why he killed himself.
>He's also just one case with the other cases being poorly documented. Not a big sample size.
>His case can probably be explained by phantom limb more than his brain prenatally 'knowing' his gender.

No.

I'm sorry, but you don't get to decide that for him. Especially not after all the shit he dealt with.

>>7502467
>David Reimer was not a woman but also not a man. Probably why he killed himself.
>not a man

>literally the only thing in his body that was botched was his penis

>killed himself because he never had a penis

Are you trying to give credence to his forced feminization?

The reason he killed himself was because he was forced into being female at an early age and then SEXUALLY ABUSED by his own brother as a FUCKING CHILD.
>I think you skipped an important part of this case

> We should regard a trans person stating that they are 'supposed to have a vagina' like a person saying that they are 'supposed to see in sonar like a bat'
False equivalence
You are claiming intraspecies neurological deviances are like inter-species delusions

>>7502467
>As an infant, I flail my baby arms, this give feedback to my brain, then i flail slighlty better and better as my motor cortex figures out about the nature of my. limbs. Eventually I can reach, grasp, and push after several months of struggling to use my baby arms. At roughly this point, I have a representation of my arms that's roughly like my representation of my arms as an adult. Note that it would be impossible for this to happen without my arms getting feedback. So at 8 months if you remove my arms I'm likely going to get phantom limb as my brain think it should still send signals to that arm and anticipate responses.

This is a description of how we come to learn to coordinate, operate, and use our limbs. It doesn't preclude the existence of a body map. You're argument would only work if the body map was also the source of this bodily coordination. Instead, it is unrelated.

>>7502055
I'm a transwoman (1.5 years on HRT), knew I was trans probably for eight/nine years or so before I came out to my family at the start of college. I don't really come on this board ever but this popped up in the little "popular threads" thing on the homepage so I decided to offer my two cents.

>By the biological definition of sex he has a penis therefore he is a man
Particularly in queer circles, 'gender' and 'sex' are discussed as two different concepts. 'Sex' is the biology part. I can't change that I was born with a dick, so yes, I am what you would call "biologically male." That is (unfortunately) a fact.

>And no, I will not accept "I just FEEEEEL"
Mainstream media tends to portray trans narratives as "boy feels like girl," or "girl feels like boy" since it's mainstream media and we're working within the traditionally imposed gender binary. Where 'gender' differs from 'sex' is that it's something that you can give yourself a label for, regardless of whether that's male, female, nonbinary, etc.
Personally, as someone who grew up socialized male, I still have a hard time saying that I just "am" a woman. I still feel like a guy faking my way into a space in the world that should be occupied by a girl. But a lot of people identify as female, for example, because it's how they feel the most comfortable expressing themself. Unfortunately when it comes to gender identity there isn't really a "why" - it just is. You are what you are, and why your brain has you thinking that way is a mystery. Transwomen are women - it's just what their brain tells them. It's not so much a feeling or a thought or a desire but a fact, if that makes sense. It's kind of abstract.

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>>7502062
Lol no

Gender identity is a biologically hardwired innate sense of your body formed in the first 3 months of pregnancy (intrauterine period). It's an instinctual conviction to your shell and its function. Sex is determined at conception and gender identity is formed ~1-3 months after.

There is significant similarities between the brain morphology of ciswomen&transwomen, and cismen&transmen indicating a related origin. These dimorphic areas are most notably in the: hypothalamus structure/behavior, limbic system, white matter microstructure, and colossal shape.

Further, much of the data is interdisciplinary (neurology, molecular biology, endocrinology) and much of the neurological findings have critical controls which factor out hormone replacement therapy or current sex hormone as the genesis of these dimorphic structures.

Male cancer patients suffering from androgenic cancers (prostate/testicular), often do androgen deprivation to combat cancer. This is done through an orchiectomy or or antiandrogens. Some of these patients end up taking female sex hormones or SERMs (estrogen sex hormone only acting on some receptors, i.e. no breast growth). These male identifying patients that remove androgens from their system and take a feminizing hormone reveal masculine-typical brain structures. Indicating these patterns are not formed due to active hormones. It's a hardwired formation that doesn't change depending on active sex hormone.

Some of the modern work in this field actually controls for pre-HRT patients and find the same results. In the first study by Zhou (started this all), he examined a transgender brain post-mortem of an 80 year old organ donor. This organ donor reported feeling cross sex dysphoria throughout his life and never transitioned. Their brain matched results found by the other transgender subjects.

>>7502251
>As a kid, She wonders about what when/if she'll get pregnant

???

I'm a MtF and I thought about this all throughout my childhood.

Also I like how you're such a bad ass feminist you reduced the experience of womanhood down to giving birth. Fuck off, stupid dyke.

>>7502055
im not sure if this is a legitimately confused person

a troll doing the "im just curious" routine

or a meta troll making a weirdly internally inconsistent OP as a parody of the first two options

this is well crafted shitposting

>>7502251
The John Money kid wasn't a girl. He was a cis guy who they basically turned into a trans guy, and then he killed himself. Neurological gender exists, socialization doesn't determine literally everything.

>>7506759
Lol yes

>>7502128
Disgusting hon, it isn't about feelings.

It's about people having enough body dysmorphia that they alter their bodies.


It's sad but the femboys are way more women than you, even if They don't pull your feels trash, honney

>>7506965
>It's sad but the femboys are way more women than you,

Not that anon, but how? They are basically just trannies who don't want to admit they are trannies, if anything they are the same.

>>7502358
All the lit says you're wrong http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0083947

Provide proof or you're just a deluded hon trying to force your honess onto others

It's a psychosis.

>>7506973
The reject his feels logic and make it all about the body.


He's a grotesque man who's conceived himself that it's okay to be a masculine freak so long as he "feels" like a woman.

The femboys do everything to change their body and unless they cross some sort of ridiculous thread hold in doing every conceivable procedure they'll tell you not to call them women.

It's a mockery otherwise, that only failures embrace.

>>7502358
Lol, most of the brain is not sexually dimorphic. Most everything we "know" about brain sex (spacial reasoning etc) is based on how people perform in tests, not on how their brain actually appears in imaging.

Which means that the sexual dimorphism apparent in trans brains is actual more significant.

>>7502251
Isn't that also why most women lack work ethic and don't want to study stem careers

They were used to having things handed to them as kids so they never learned to struggle for something

So really, isn't your idea an argument for why nearly all women are inheritely inferior for STEM and other professional careers?

>>7507040
Don't bother talking to the hon. Everything out there not about hons like him contradicts him http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0083947

He's just some deluded crazy with inflated self importance

Transgenderism is easy to understand, at least M to F transgenderism.

1. You get to get all the privileges of women, especially if you are a white M to F.

2. You get to be a "Lesbian" MTF Transgender, and your superior biological build will make it easier to rape girls.

3. You are Transgender Lesbian, meaning raping white girls is a protected privilege and you are protected solely by the higher label count.

Now, you don't need to rape them using your tool, because i chopped that off once i transitioned.
I prefer to strapon destroy them. It really makes me going.

>>7502055
>Nothing else matters

this is where you're wrong.
what is in the head matters as much, if not more, as what is on the body.
stop trying to control other people.
live your own life.
let others live theirs.

>>7507113
Mind doesn't matter asides from the fact it causes misery.

Body and altering that in every way you can is all that matters. That's the only thing that helps.

Get your savior complex out of here, you don't get it.

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>>7507096
>your superior biological build will make it easier to rape girls.
>Now, you don't need to rape them using your tool, because i chopped that off once i transitioned.
>I prefer to strapon destroy them. It really makes me going.

So basically, you pretend that consensual sex with lesbians is rape to feel better about the fact that you cut off your own dick and atrophied your own muscles with E.

You do realize you're basically a very rapeable lesbian now, right? And as soon as you get dicked, you'll turn straight anyway.

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>>7507194
Transbians are like femboys both will never loose their dignified boy persona no matter what.

Have fun being wrong

>>7507223
>"dignified boy persona"
>posts Utena

Lmao it's over for you dudette. Have fun with Chad.

>>7507245
What?

>>7502467
Are you saying that if we had the technology to give people bat sonar capabilities we shouldn't let them have it?
Why the hell not?
That sounds badass.
You know it doesn't replace normal vision, right?

>>7502296
By that argument, forcing a transgender person to stay the sex they were born with is torturing a child.

>>7502251
What is David Reimer?

>>7506892
Actually sex is set first. Later gender is set during early brain development. Likely later orientation is set.

>>7507040
Sometime look up "Every cell has a sex".

>>7508307
>David Reimer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

>>7506916
I was born female. I prayed to God that I would never get pregnant. I prayed to God that I would never get my monthly bullshit again.

To add to >>7506916, you reduced womanhood to bodily functions. I thought rad fems wanted everybody to consider women as more than their body parts. You don't yourself.

>>7508329
I can't even understand this shit but I don't like it. I guess I should buy a rope at Home Depot tomorrow just in case this is legit.

>>7508329
Thanks. It was a (failed) troll joke on my part.

>>7508329
Definitely looking up "Every cell has a sex."

>>7508361
Basically, one needs to have a body that fits the gender of their brain. The only way we can do this is to change the body. It would be to complex to change the brain.

>>7502149
I feel like an empty canvas and see myself as such. When I want to do or say something that doesn't seem in character of how I appear, so I can just run with it! But, I end up being depressed and mindless when I feel I'll be judged. Never doing anything worth aspiring in a cycle of depressive mindlessness till I can get to die. Does this mean I'm AGP?

>>7508449
I was referring to the "Every Cell Has a Sex" thing, I know that neurological sex is real.

>>7509063
>>7508361
Basically cells behave differently if the host is female or male. Looks like many properties in cells are governed by the hormones present when they are created.

>>7502055
>What makes a trans-woman claim to be a man
uhhhhhhh

>>7509171
>Basically cells behave differently if the host is female or male.

FUUUUUUUUUUUUU

>Looks like many properties in cells are governed by the hormones present when they are created.

Oh. But aren't cells replaced literally all the time?

>>7502251
>As a kid, She wonders about what when/if she'll get pregnant. In middle school, she hears about other girls getting their periods and wonders when she'll get hers
i'm a transwomen and also experienced this

>>7509180
>But aren't cells replaced literally all the time?
>muh facts
YOU'RE JUSTA PERVERTED DEGENERATE MAN-FREAK!!!!

>>7502155
>>7506892
What always angers me about these threads is that the shitposters always ignore the detailed, informative posts.

>>7510730
>Youmustbenewhere.jpg
Welcome to 4chan

>>7508449

"too complex to change the brain"

have you been so kind as to let the entire field of psychiatry know that they are out of business?


you stupid fucking idiot, i hope you get run over by a bus today, literally i hope that happens to you

while your loved ones watch

>>7510876
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0083947

You can rewire huge chunks of grey.

But hey, if you think you can use some mind Ray from Scientology then be my guest.

You're obviously deluded enough to need scifi tech

>>7509180
>Oh. But aren't cells replaced literally all the time?
Yes. The new ones will be setup and behave appropriately for the environment they were created in.

>>7510876
The part of the brain that sets gender is in the reptile part of the brain and you can't change it.

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>>7510730
shitposters aren't looking for answers.
they are trying to trigger people.
best to just ignore them.
they could always google and read if they actually wanted to learn.

>>7508286
I'm that poster, and, if I wasn't super clear, I 100% believe that. I'm pretty disgusted by the idea of ever denying transition to a kid who needs it.

>>7502055
Here's my copypasta for whenever well-meaning people ask questions like this on 4chan or Reddit or Facebook:

Trans people basically have a mental (neurological/hormonal) intersex condition. They're no different than people born with physical intersex conditions, their conditions are just a lot less obvious.

To vastly oversimplify it, a trans woman's brain is wired to 'expect' female hormones. However, since her body produces male hormones, it leads to feelings of dysphoria. These feelings are worsened by the fact that her body has male sex characteristics that don't match the way her brain 'expects' to look and feel. (The same obviously applies to trans men, who have male brains in female bodies.)

It's a lot easier to change the body than it is to change the brain. Furthermore, even if changing the brain to fix the problem was possible (which it isn't, at least not with our current technology), doing so would raise ethical concerns about changing the fundamental nature of a person's identity; people *are* their brains more than they are their bodies. That's why hormone replacement therapy is currently the only treatment for gender dysphoria that's proven to be effective, and it's likely to remain that way for the foreseeable future.

It's also important to note that being trans has nothing to do with societal gender roles. There are plenty of trans men who aren't traditionally masculine, and plenty of trans women who aren't traditionally feminine. A male-bodied person can be traditionally masculine and still know they're female, and a female-bodied person can be traditionally feminine and still know they're male, despite fulfilling all of society's expectations for their birth gender. Likewise, there are plenty of effeminate cis men and masculine cis women. There's almost no truth to the idea that people transition just because they have traits that society associates with the opposite sex.

>>7511991
Interesting. Do you have any sources for that though?
I get into arguments a lot with a friend of mine over this, he believes transexuality to be a mental psychosis that needs to be treated psychiatrically.

>>7512219
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2011/11/09/the-transsexual-brain/

>>7512555 cont'd
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304854804579234030532617704
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/11/02/us/study-links-brain-to-transsexuality.html
http://www.medicaldaily.com/brain-mapping-gender-identity-what-makes-boy-girl-247122
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/01/26/scans-show-difference-in-transgender-brains/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ravishly/neuroscience-proves-what-_b_6494820.html
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/02/150213112317.htm
http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2014/09/12/cercor.bhu194.full

>>7512579
>>7512555

Why don't you post real research articles instead of garbage little pop sci?

see: >>7510336
>>7510344
>>7510353
>>7510358

>>7512219
>needs to be treated psychiatrically
How? Actual psychiatrists have tried anything they can think of and it doesn't work so why does your friend think they know better?

>>7512606
Other than Pink News and Huff Post, all of those are reliable science and/or news sites. And the last one is an actual research journal.

Thanks for linking to some very good articles that prove my point even more thoroughly, but there's no need to be such a dick to someone who agrees with you.

>>7512219
tell him to commit suicide
>>7512038
i dont hate myself anymore, what with my jiggly butt and nipple puffs