URgent help

>>7481161
Also, if an estrogen supplement INHIBITS aromatase, does it still raise overall estrogen?

>>7481161
http://hormonebalance.org/userfiles/file/Medications%20that%20increase%20aromatase.pdf
I doubt it will make any difference though. A slightly raised estrogen level doesn't reduce testosterone unless it's drastically higher. Many guys have high E but perfectly normal levels of T, they just get stuff like gyno.

In the past before antiandrogens were used in HRT for mtf's they simply increased the estrogen dosage significantly. Like whereas say 4-6mg/day might be normal nowadays on an AA in the past 8-15mg/day were more typical and had equivalent effects to antiandrogens.

>>7481178
If "biochin A" in red clover inhibits aromatase, does it matter since red clover raises estrogen overall?

So since a thing called "osteoclasts" are raised by lower estrogen, an aromatase inhibitor would raise osteoclasts but estrogen would lower them.

Would red clover raise or lower osteoclasts??

Thank you.

>>7481178
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/article/red-clover-demonstrates-aromatase-inhibition-activity-which-may-reduce-risk-estrogen

btw please look at this if you want, it's an abstract saying red clover actually inhibits aromatase

aromatase inhibitors are used to LOWER estrogen, which means osteoclasts are increased

>>7481192
Osteoclasts are cells that play a part in bone formation. Red clover is supposed to prevent osteoporosis so it would most likely lower them since osteoclasts cause bone resorption into the blood.
Biochanin A would technically lower estrogen, but it doesn't matter in terms of your bone health since biochanin A exerts significantly higher selective estrogenic activity on bones than estradiol does. Most phytoestrogens are pretty potent SERMs for bone health.

Phytoestrogens don't play a role in your bodies steroidogenesis so even if it lowers estrogen amounts your body processes biochanin A like it does a drug. It needs to be metabolized by your liver and excreted by your kidneys or feces. Your body is incapable of downregulating phytoestrogens just like any other synthetic estrogen other than the 3 bioidentical ones (estrone, estriol, and estradiol).

>>7481211
>Red clover is supposed to prevent osteoporosis so it would most likely lower them
That's a relief

So basically If I pop a handful of red clover pills, like 5 grams, my osteoclasts will significantly lower despite the large dose of "biochin a" i took?

And does the osteoclasts stay lowered for a long time or just a few hours?

Will the

>>7481219
I'm not sure how long the effects last. But biochanin a won't cause osteoporosis. It's pretty well proven to stop osteoporosis in menopausal women.
Also in your large intestine biochanin a will partially metabolized to genistein. There's also formononetin in red clover which metabolizes to daidzein in your gut. Genistein and daidzein are 17B-HSD inhibitors which will raise androstenedione which will most likely result in higher levels of estradiol anyway even with reduced aromatase activity.

All these effects aren't that strong though. Like if you're trying to transition using red clover it's just too weak on its own.
I wouldn't say it's absolutely impossible not to do it, like I've seen pics of guys taking pueraria mirifica and they get giant tits and whatnot so I guess anything is possible lol

But isoflavones are a little too weak on their own. When combined with coumestrol, 8-prenylnaringenin, or miroestrol they're potentially pretty potent. I saw one study that examined how phytoestrogens seem to influence each other in vivo in a rats and when they approached a 2:1 ratio of genistein:daidzein it obliterated the rat testicles but at 10:1 and 1:10 ratios it did absolutely nothing.
It would appear that how you combine certain herbs could drastically change what they do. Also it depends on how your intestinal bacteria metabolize them. Could be why some guys see plenty of effects from PM and some see none.

>>7481265
>All these effects aren't that strong though.
>But isoflavones are a little too weak on their own.
There is this stuff called "epi super andro" that is an aromatase inhibitor made with
>3b-undecyloxy-5a-androstan-17-one ~ 50 mg
>6-7 dihydroxybergamottin 45% ~ 15 mg
>piperine 5 mg

Would you say 6 servings of that^ is also weak and can be countered by large doses of red clover?

Also, what herbs can I buy to get the maximum osteoclast inhibition?

Thanks, you are a big help.

>>7481279
What are you trying to do exactly? Raise T or E?
Cause that supplement has androsterone in it which I guess would most likely raise testosterone. You're working against your own body to convert it backwards though. I don't think it would significantly raise testosterone. The pathway between T/DHT and androsterone is reversible but to get it to go backwards you'd need huge amounts. Like if you think of stoichiometric ratios in chemistry to get a reaction to reverse you have to either flood it with the product on one side or reduce it on the other. You'd probably need to get your androsterone concentrations higher than your T or DHT concentrations.
I don't think flooding your body with androsterone would be the healthiest given it's a byproduct that your body makes so it can eliminate it from your body.

I've never specifically looked up the 2nd ingredient that it says is from grapefruit, but I'd imagine they're relying on similar mechanisms to how people eat grapefruit to enhance certain drugs or pharmaceuticals and whatnot.
The 3rd one piperine is from black peppers. It's just added to certain pharmaceuticals and supplements to prevent intestinal bacteria from metabolizing drugs. With certain pharmaceuticals it's added to aid in the drug crossing the blood-brain barrier as well.

>>7481322
>What are you trying to do exactly? Raise T or E?
I was forced by hand to eat 6 servings of that T supplement

I want to use red clover and maybe puerrera mirifica to undo it completely. It inhibits aromatase which raised osteoclasts, I want the very opposite of this

How much red clover do I have to take or is there a better herb?

>>7481335
lol why not just wait it out?
It's not going to do anything in just one single dosage. If you consistently ate 6 servings a day for multiple days to the point you managed to maintain a steady blood concentration of it then it would start having effects.
Similarly red clover in a single dose won't do anything either. To see the effects on bones takes daily supplementation for several weeks at minimum.

You'll be just fine, you won't even notice any effects most likely unless you're allergic to something in that supplement. You'll piss it all out and your bones aren't going to suddenly explode or decay lol

>>7481356
Ok. but I'm taking red clover anyway, so how much extra red clover should i take to counter the effect of the T supplement?

>>7481363
You could take a few grams if you wanted. It's a pretty harmless supplement. You could eat like 5g of it like you were planning if you really wanted. Isoflavones are good for you anyway, it'll help lower your cholesterol lol
You should stop worrying so much, you'll be just fine....

>>7481356
Or just tell me, in grams, how much red clover I can take.

I have a lot and I mainly want it to counter the osteoclast effect from the T supplement, even if it did nearly nothing I still want to know an amount to drown out its effects.

>>7481375
I think what you need is some xanax to stop your worrying lol

You don't get osteoporosis in one day, it's physically impossible.

>>7481399
I know, you're right but if I were asking just to know, would like 10 grams of red clover counter that supplement?

Just curious

Anyway, thanks so much, seriously.

>>7481406
Well probably don't take 10g all at once, it'll give you give you horrible gas haha
I believe a pretty standard dose for menopausal women is like 3-5g/day to prevent osteoporosis. But if you take it all at once you might get indigestion so maybe like 2-3g.
If you're so worried keep taking 2-3g/day for many days and enjoy your lowered cholesterol and reduced prostate cancer risk!