"Transgender Identity" Right or Disorder?

What is wrong with the trans argument?
-Someone who has a belief that their body conflicts with the image of their body is widely considered to have body dysmorphic disorder. This can be non-psychiatric in many cases. I personally think I’m a twerp, but most people think I’m athletic. However there can be extremes; anorexia, body integrity identity disorder, and possibly having a transgendered identity. In these cases people can physically harm themselves to match their body to their image. The problem I have is that the medical community doesn’t amputate the limbs of people with BIID, but we do provide dangerous sex-change operations (they’re even subsidized by insurance policies). This double standard confuses me, because on paper these dysmorphias seem identical.

What’s wrong with calling trans a disorder?
-I would argue that being gay is not a psychological disorder. If being gay isn’t a mental disorder, how is being trans a mental disorder? Gays and straights alike have the right to do what they want as long as they do not infringe upon another person’s rights. Why should there be a double standard between liking the same sex vs. feeling born of the wrong sex? Why should we stop someone else’s happiness when they know how to achieve it without hurting anyone?
Also, as a doctor I would be in some deep shit if I tried referring a trans person to a psychiatrist. Socially we have come to accept it.

Arguments I don’t like:
Genetic- Fuck this argument. Chromosomally we are assigned a sex, but gender and sexuality is not assigned by an XY or an XX. Some argue epigenetic factors determine gender and sexuality, but as a scientist I find these studies incomplete. I doubt questions of why people are who they are will ever be fully answered.
Psychiatric Classification- There are “soft laws” of psychology. Not everything can be categorized simply due to one factor or another. Maybe it should be a disorder, but a majority of society has accepted it so it has become unnecessary to treat. Our culture directly effects how things are classified and our culture cannot always be right. Psychiatry is changing so quickly that I find it futile to use it as a definitive answer.
So /LGBT/ please. Should trans people be allowed to get gender reassignment or are we facilitating a psychiatric condition?

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Except its less of a mental illness and more of a physiological condition.

The vast majority of men that experience hair loss suffer from mental issues relating to it. That doesn't make hair loss a mental issue. It makes it a physical issue that manifests as mental distress.

Here is a graphic I put together illustrating research over sexual dimorphism in the brain and transgender brain neurology. Transgender people's brains occupy a middle ground closer in relation to their identified gender. Many criticize a lot of this research for utilizing patients post-HRT but many are controlled for pre-HRT and a few years ago research was done on cismales with a rare testicular cancer which forced them to take estrogens and antiandrogens. These cismen taking HRT did not develop or show signs of a feminized brain dimorphism.

Further, transgender people empirically benefit from transition in all measurements.

It's literally anti-rational to prevent transpeople from transitioning.

Empirical evidence illustrating the benefit of transition:

>Heylans et al., 2014: "A difference in SCL-90 [a test of distress, anxiety, and hostility] overall psychoneurotic distress was observed at the different points of assessments (P = 0.003), with the most prominent decrease occurring after the initiation of hormone therapy (P < 0.001)...Furthermore, the SCL-90 scores resembled those of a general population after hormone therapy was initiated."

>Colizzi et al., 2013: "At enrollment, transsexuals reported elevated CAR ['cortisol awakening response', a physiological measure of stress]; their values were out of normal. They expressed higher perceived stress and more attachment insecurity, with respect to normative sample data. When treated with hormone therapy [at followup, 1 year after beginning HRT], transsexuals reported significantly lower CAR (P < 0.001), falling within the normal range for cortisol levels. Treated transsexuals showed also lower perceived stress (P < 0.001), with levels similar to normative samples."

>Gomez-Gil et al., 2012: "SADS, HAD-A, and HAD-Depression (HAD-D) mean scores [these are tests of depression and anxiety] were significantly higher among patients who had not begun cross-sex hormonal treatment compared with patients in hormonal treatment (F=4.362, p=.038; F=14.589, p=.001; F=9.523, p=.002 respectively). Similarly, current symptoms of anxiety and depression were present in a significantly higher percentage of untreated patients than in treated patients (61% vs. 33% and 31% vs. 8% respectively)."

>>6711522
cont

>Here is a broad survey conducted in the UK. Unlike the previous links, it's not peer-reviewed, but the large sample size provides some corroboration of the above results. In particular, we have: (Page 15): "Stage of transition had a substantial impact upon life satisfaction within the sample. 70% of the participants stated that they were more satisfied with their lives since transition, compared to 2% who were less satisfied (N=671)" (Page 50): " Most participants who had transitioned felt that their mental health was better after doing so (74%), compared to only 5% who felt it was worse (N=353)." (Page 55): "For participants who had transitioned, this had led to changes in their self-harming. 63% felt that they harmed themselves more before they transitioned, with only 3% harming themselves more after transition (N=206)." (Page 59): "Suicidal ideation and actual attempts reduced after transition, with 63% thinking about or attempting suicide more before they transitioned and only 3% thinking about or attempting suicide more post-transition. 7% found that this increased during transition, which has implications for the support provided to those undergoing these processes (N=316)."

>de Vries, et al., 2014 studied 55 trans teens from the onset of treatment in their early teenage years through a follow-up an average of 7 years later. They found no negative outcomes, no regrets, and in fact their group was slightly mentally healthier than controls.

>Lawrence, 2003 surveyed post-op trans folk: "Participants reported overwhelmingly that they were happy with their SRS results and that SRS had greatly improved the quality of their lives. None reported outright regret and only a few expressed even occasional regret."

This is not the case for BDD suffers as you compared to. BDD does not improve despite allowing them to harm themselves. Transpeople DO improve and many move on from their gender issues. Perhaps not entirely but to a great degree.

>>6711516
Fascinating! This is a great place for me to start. I only want to better understand my fellow humans.

>>6711481
I dont care whether people considering being transgender as a mental illness/disorder.

But people need to realize the only way you can helps trans people is by letting them medically/socially transition. Trying to convert them to being cis only causes problems lol.

>>6711481
>Should trans people be allowed to get gender reassignment
Sure, it's their body. Nobody should be compelled by law to pay for it, help them accomplish it, or be legally forced to acknowledge it though.

Some other interesting research involve trannys:

>Combining data from our independent findings with those from past research, 13 of 39 male MZ twin pairs (33.3%) were found to be concordant for transsexual identity and eight of 25 (22.8%) female MZ twins were found concordant. In comparison, concordance between either male or female DZ twins was low or zero (1/38 = 2.6%; Table 5).

>Notably among our responding twins were three sets who had been reared apart and were concordant in transitioning. One was a male set within which the brothers were separated at birth, another was a set of males separated at age 4, and the third was a female pair separated at 14. Each had independently and unknowingly transitioned and found out about each other’s switch as adults after the gender shift.

So twins sharing the same DNA had spiked statistical chances of both being trans while twins with separate DNA showed no increase in chance. This was true even of a few cases in the study where the kids were separated at birth, childhood, and teen years.

___

This is fascinating as well:

>V.S. Ramachandran "Occurrence of phantom genitalia after gender
reassignment surgery". Around 60% of cis-men who have had to have their penis amputated for cancer will experience a phantom penis. Data from several dozen post-operative subjects lends support to our prediction that they have a lower incidence of phantom penis/breast sensations than ‘‘normal’’ individuals who have undergone amputation of the same appendage, for other medical reasons. More remarkably our prediction that female-tomale transsexuals would have a phantom penis also seems to be correct. Indeed, more than half of the around 30 female-to-male transsexuals we have interviewed, claim to have experienced this, often since early childhood.

Men who lose their dicks experience them phantom-ly. Trannies that lose their dicks don't. Something is happening instinctually there.

Further, I'm not aware of a single case in which a persons innate gender identity has been changed by sociological or cultural factors. In fact, I have only seen cases that discredit the idea that gender identity is learned:

EX 1:
David Reimer, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

David had a botched circumcision which let to the destruction of his genitals. He was raised female following medical advice. Psychologist, John Money, grabbed it up as an opportunity to prove his argument about learned gender identity.

Money socialized David as a girl and forced him to do really fucked up shit:
>Reimer said that Dr. Money forced the twins to rehearse sexual acts involving "thrusting movements", with David playing the bottom role. Reimer said that, as a child, he had to get "down on all fours" with his brother, Brian Reimer, "up behind his butt" with "his crotch against" his "buttocks". Reimer said that Dr. Money forced David, in another sexual position, to have his "legs spread" with Brian on top. Reimer said that Dr. Money also forced the children to take their "clothes off" and engage in "genital inspections". On at "least one occasion", Reimer said that Dr. Money took a photograph of the two children doing these activities. Dr. Money's rationale for these various treatments was his belief that "childhood 'sexual rehearsal play'" was important for a "healthy adult gender identity".

David Reimer identified as a boy before he ever learned his medical past. He had depression and killed himself shortly in his life. John Money's own experiment to test that argument illustrated the opposite.


EX 2:
Walt Heyer, http://www.sexchangeregret.com/
Walt Heyer was sexually abused and feminized by his grand mother. He was raised as a girl and transitioned. He detransitioned later in his life and now spend his life trying to stop transpeople from transitioning. It's pretty bizarre. It shows an interesting case.

>>6711481
If you decide that your problem is my existence, that will remain your problem. Because go fuck yourself.

>>6711531
Yeah. To start. Meaning your 21 year old genius thought leader visionary in your undergrad ass needs to do more research before making grand, sweeping observations about shit people have already figured out way before you showed up to illuminate us all with your brilliance.

There comes a point where you need to stop using this stranger in a strange land tone of false incredulity to cover up for your arrogant assumptions, grow up, and research something before you proclaim you're an expert on a topic you've barely learned about.

So there you go, doctor. I've given you:

>~18+ empirical peer reviewed articles examining the neurological idiosyncrasies of transgender people.

>Empirical evidence illustrating the benefit of transition on mental and physical well being

>Real life cases illustrating gender identity not being a learned phenomenon

We could add to this the fact that gender variant peoples have existed for centuries, spanning as long as civilization.

Combine all that with the fact that we are sentient creatures with the freedom of body autonomy and there is zero argument against transgender people. You have to consciously disregard empirical reality in order to fabricate an argument against trannys. That's why we are medically accepted.

Those two things don't have to be mutually exclusive, OP. You can think of giving a trans person hormones as the same thing as giving a depressed person anti-depressants. Transitioning is just the best-working treatment for the mental disorder known as gender dysphoria.

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>>6711481
It's not up to you. Your opinion doesn't matter, and you are pathetic for even trying to play a contrarian. I speak for most Trans people, mtf or FTM when I say stay out of my way, or I will put you down like a sick dog.


>>6711578
Lmao this kid is striking a reddit tone. Probably this kid irl

>>6711499
Hahaha how old are you? When you finish grade 9 biology please let us know.

Love a natal born female.

>>6711516
>>6711595
these tbqh famalam. OP, if you're actually a med student then you should know to actually look for studies or at least read the damn wikipedia article for your information before shitposting on chinese underwater basket weaving forums

>>6711604
>this kid
nothing personnel *sheathes katana*

>>6711604
And here comes the strawman slide.

>>6711578
>>6711595
I never meant to offend, although I understand the offensive nature of my question.
In the next few years it will be my occupation to help people become and continue to be healthy individuals. What happens if I become a pediatrician who has to discuss gender identity with children? I want to know the facts and give families the help they need. These questions have continued to come up in my studies without any real answers.
I know I could have done a lot research myself, but I wanted to get a prospective outside of my own to start.

>>6711626

>I'm 19 and think I'm worth a lot more to society than I am

>>6711626

Okay so why did you just ignore all this great information posted and only reply to the people trolling you?

See:
>>6711516
>>6711522
>>6711530
>>6711540
>>6711568
>>6711598

How about you reply to those instead of the petty, unsubstantiated posts if you really give a damn about learning anything?

>>6711626
>asking 4chan for medical advice
>asking 4chan for medical advice as a future doctor on behalf of your future patients
Y I K E S
I
K
E
S

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>>6711481

>>6711598
And yet people do make these obviously flawed arguments. I started thinking about this, because this evening I heard a radio host making the argument against transgendered people.
I'm incredibly appreciative of your knowledge. More importantly I appreciate that my original argument was baseless.

>>6711653

>average people with no medical training don't know anything about medicine and base their opinions solely on knee-jerk reactions

Wow, what a surprise.

>>6711655
But these people mold societal opinion which sadly does permeate into the opinions medical professionals. The social dialogue matters and I want to be able to form an intellectually valuable response.

>>6711639
Because this thread isn't about education. It's about propaganda. What better way to establish a viewpoint than to create imaginary blind/violent/angry resistance to it and only respond "rationally" to manufactured sockpuppets? It's an anonymous board that's supposedly filled to the brim with anonymous gays and trans people, according to the label on top. This is by far the best place to run brute force cointel to reinforce the current bro-sciencey views of the alt-right echobox on trans people.

>>6711684
>I'm from pol and reddit and think I'm very intelligent.

>>6711685
Do you have a blog you can link me? If I give you a throw away email are we going to talk more without you trying to touch my dick like OP did? There is a sparkle of real intelligence in this thread not with op, I wanna pick your brain.

Alright, you got me.

>>6711685


It was not my original intention to run cointel tho. In fact, I am just curious because two weeks ago I had this experience with another man that confused me to my very core.

If I am going to become a doctor, as I am, I am going to need to address these homoerotic thoughts.

>>6711481 (OP)
I should not have posted this, and I am sorry. I just wish I had a transgender woman to have sex with so I don't feel so guilty just for liking men.

>>6711736
>Do you have a blog you can link me? If I give you a throw away email are we going to talk more without you trying to touch my dick like OP did? There is a sparkle of real intelligence in this thread not with op, I wanna pick your brain.
Don't butter me up anon.

>>6711685
I want to hear this "echobox," because for me it is completely new. I value each of the opinions listed here, even the ones that are meant to personally effect me, because I do deserve to be shit on for being uneducated.

>>6711758
This is very clearly not me.

The reason I am here is to make peace with the transgender community. I have only ever had one experience with another man, and for your information I loved the taste of his semen. So nice try trying to make it seem like I'm more than just myself, when in reality I can just laugh and continue to fap to the thought of my boyfriend eating my asshole.

>>6711758
>I am just curious
They're always "just curious" yet they have a whole rebuttal, bullet point list and ideology ready to sell you about yourself for each and every question you answer.

>>6711758
You being a repressed bisexual or gay has nothing to do with trans people at all.

>>6711777
>The reason I am here is to make peace with the transgender community.
Take me to your leader, cisling.

>>6711782
That wasn't me, that's an imposter. I am the true OP. The real truth is I think I am not transgender, but I can't tell because my father raped me.

>>6711578
Grow up

>>6711795
I did, and now I'm here. But apparently some people can't handle that.

>>6711758
>If I am going to become a doctor, as I am,...
ROFL
Thank you all for helping me. I'm glad we had this conversation and I've saved all the papers to read soon. I love you all.
Sincerely,
OP

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Holy shit this thread is a disaster.

>>6711516
Nice infographic. Good job.

>>6711485
>because on paper these dysmorphias seem identical.
Except an anorexic person could be a dying twig and still see a morbidly obese person in the mirror. And feeding into either delusion by physically making them incredibly skinny or incredibly fat to match their desire/perception will not cease or satisfy the delusion.

With trans people, feeding into the way they perceive their sex generally yields satisfaction (but for social, financial, and potentially health repercussions). Unlike a body dyspmorhic case, a typical transgender person will never receive full treatment, look in the mirror, and think "no, MORE!" Obviously someone who's not passing might continue striving to do so, but a trans person will level out and perceive their sex as desired around the same time the rest of the world perceives their sex as desired - because it's not delusion, it's perception.

A healthy person perceives an anorexic patient as a twig, while the anorexic patient perceives themselves as obese. One of these people is not seeing reality.
A healthy person perceives a passing, fully-transitioned MtF patient as female, and the MtF patient also perceives themselves as female. Both of these people are seeing reality.

>>6711481

>I don’t know if being transgendered is the right of an individual or if it is a mental disorder.
It's a disorder and a choice. Whatever makes you happy.

>Should trans people be allowed to get gender reassignment or are we facilitating a psychiatric condition?
Bit of both. Sometimes it's so hard-wired inside a person's mind that you can't "lose" the gender dysphoria with mere cbt and medication. It's so imprinted inside a persons mind, the choices that remain (such as with ECT) are so severe, it's best to just let them have the thing that /might/ make them feel a bit less dysphoric.

>I am a 21 year old, cis, straight male who has lived most of his life trying it become a medical doctor. I am almost always a social liberal and I want to accept transgender rights. Along my academic path I have taken medical ethics, philosophy of psychiatry, genetics, and neuroscience.
Live and let live friend

>>6711481
>I don’t know if being transgendered is the right of an individual or if it is a mental disorder.
why are these mutually exclusive