Question for en/us trans and non binary.

There isn't really a good answer to this on the short term. On the long term I imagine that language will adapt. English dropped Thee and Thou because people were lazy. Today's English is basically broken according to the formal rules of yore. As the need for a gender neutral way to refer to people arises I imagine that something similar will happen in languages which formerly had no such way to talk about people.

>>6709430
So, if i understand, in english "it" and neutral gender in general is exclusivly reserved to objects, and people MUST be gendered ?

>>6709459
Mostly. There's the singular They, which is now considered to be the polite way to refer to a person whose gender you do not know. "It" is never used for people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

>>6709481
Okayyy. Thank you very mutch for this precision.

>>6709481
Even people who hate singular they as a personal identity pronoun will use it when they're uncertain about a random someone's gender. Especially if they never saw or heard the person they're taking about, or the person is hypothetical, like how I used it.

If actually faced with someone of indeterminate gender people often go to great lengths to avoid pronouns altogether. "They" has a feeling of distance to it, so it can come across as impolite. And most people take a certain pride in their gender identity so calling someone by the wrong pronoun is a faux pas and it has certainly got people in trouble. Calling someone "it" is a dehumanising insult and socially dangerous. It would be better to guess wrong.

>>6709409
In Sweden the word "hen" was introduced quite recently.

He = Han
She = Hon
"Neutral"/Unknown = Hen

Op here

>>6709543
>Calling someone "it" is a dehumanising insult and socially dangerous. It would be better to guess wrong.

Wow, didn't know, sry. This is probably something nobody will teach in french.

>>6709568

Ho, yeah, i heard very good things about north europe. I like socialists politics you have and LGBT rights advabce in your countries. Maybe i will move in this country. France sucks.

>>6709568
>she = hon
lmao

some examples of 'they' as singular:
"I got hit by a car"
"Oh no! Did the driver get arrested?"
"No, I didn't even see them. They just drove away."

"I made a new friend today."
"Cool, what's their name?"
"Mary."
"You should invite her over to hang out."

Also, when talking about someone who's gender is unknown or when talking about an example of a person rather than a specific individual, (for instance, if you are talking about the police or doctors), English speakers will usually use male pronouns or male words (like "policeman" or "fireman"). For example:
"if you need help, you can always ask a policeman."

"Where is the pizza delivery guy? He's late!"

I know it was already brought up, but it really can't be stressed enough what an insult it would be to refer to any human being as "it". Even calling a fetus "it" can make people upset. Calling wild animals "it" is ok, and calling someone's pet "it" is ok if the animal is not there, but if you are meeting the animal, it would be strange to call it "it". If you know the sex, you must use that pronoun whenever talking about the animal (this applies to people too). To do otherwise is strange. Also with animals, Americans will rarely use "they" if they don't know it's sex, because it is no big deal is someone's pet is misgendered. The exchange usually goes: "what a cute dog! What's his name?" "Her name is Sheila." "Aww hi Sheila! Who's a good girl?" (The last sentence being spoken to the dog).

>>6709621
>Wow, didn't know, sry. This is probably something nobody will teach in french.
Si si on l'apprend à l'école, tu devais juste être endormi à ce moment.
It = Ca / Cela / Ceci C'est pour désigner les objets, donc confond pas avec;
Them = Eux (plus ou moins) They = Eux au singulier, sauf que ca existe pas tu dois dire elle ou lui / le prénom de la personne/groupe de personne
>>6710458
[insert transphobic joke here]

>>6710577
>Who's a good girl?" (The last sentence being spoken to the dog).
>not visiting your bdsm slave
pleb

>>6709568
>>6710458
Actually that poster either made a typo or doesn't know that spelling is wrong, it's "hun" and pronounced with a hard u like the vowel sound in "boom".
t. Norwegian

>>6710785
(I'm referring to the feminine form not the neutral form)

>>6710785
What do you think about importing "hen" to Norwegian?
Personally I think the sound of it has a notable Swedish tinge. I was in a conversation where someone suggested "hin" as a more Norwegian alternative.
Hen/hem? Hin/him?
At any rate, introducing a pronoun to a language is no small feat and my mind resists it even though I consciously think it has utility...

>>6710950
I think you should also consider "Hyn".

>>6710754
Ca / Cela / Ceci est plus l'équivalent de this / that. Ce sont des pronoms demonstratifs. It n'a pas de réel équivalent grammatical, puisque c'est un pronom personnel singulier neutre.

Y'a bien le "on" qui est effectivement neutre et 3eme personne du singulier, mais indéfini. D'ailleurs son utilisation est spéciale et annecdotique

Them est neutre pluriel, Eux est masculin pluriel. They se traduit par ils/elles. They est neutre ils est masculin. Il n'existe pas de pronom neutre pluriel définit non plus.

Après c'est vrai, tu as raison qu'on nous dit que "it" est pour les objets. Ceci dit, vu qu'on ne parle pas de transidentité a l'école (à l'exception peut-être de la présence d'une personne trans/non binaire au sein de la classe), et bien, rien ne m'empêche d'immaginer qu'il est d'usage de faire ça dans les pays anglophones, vu qu'ils ont des vrais pronoms neutres, eux. Visiblement, non. Je ne savait pas.

>You remind me an hightly sexist grammar rule in french. French doesn't have a plural third person neutral pronoumn : "They" as two gendered equivalents.
>When u designate a group of boys or male gendered objects, u say ils.
>When u designate a group of girls or female gendered objects, u say elles.
>When male and female genders are mixed, u say ils. The only explain of that is because french has the strong gender system. Because Male is strongest, that's all. Shut up. Don't discuss.

>>6710986
I think I might like that better. "Hyn" feels very neutral.

>>6710577
Thank you for this explains, interresting.

>>6711091
>Ca / Cela / Ceci est plus l'équivalent de this / that.
Cela et Ceci ouais, c'est this et that = faits, mais pa Ça
>Eux est masculin pluriel
Ah ouais merde, ben alors Them = Leurs mais ca s'utilise pas pareil alors ca fou le bordel
J'ai tellement l'habitude de l'anglais que dans ma tête Eux était mixte, putain jsuis tro brittish kwa.
>The only explain of that is because french has the strong gender system. Because Male is strongest, that's all. Shut up. Don't discuss.
C'est just la langue je pense. Les anglais se compliquent pas la vie avec leur mots, ils transforment des onomatopées en verbes quoi, tandis que nous on reste collés au traditions, on enlève un "g" à oignon et on sent plus notre cul...
>>6711102
I was actually kidding, I said this so you'd have every vowels
>Y as vowel For Le Win

>>6711170
>C'est just la langue je pense. Les anglais se compliquent pas la vie avec leur mots, ils transforment des onomatopées en verbes quoi, tandis que nous on reste collés au traditions, on enlève un "g" à oignon et on sent plus notre cul...

Y'a du vrai. On a une académie française, le millieu social la bas est très bourgeois. Donc forcément conservateur. Pour le cas le l'oignon, je penses que c'est plus l'action combiner de nos putes de médias de merde avec la fachosphère qui a créer un shitstorm qui n'intéresse qu'eux même , et malheureusement, les gens jouent le jeu du donner son avis tout ça. En vérité ce tru à été ressorti pour faire passer en douce une prolonguation de l'état d'urgence. Tout ça pour dire que les médias sont juste complice d'une trahison politique et ce shitstorm n'aurais jamais existé sans ce contexte, puisqu'en vérité on en a rien a foutre non plus...

>>6711312
Ben merde moi j'croyais ca parlait juste d'oignon et toi tu me sort une théorie du complot...

>>6709430
OP is French, though. They have an academy that prevents the language from changing.

>>6710577
>I know it was already brought up, but it really can't be stressed enough what an insult it would be to refer to any human being as "it".
>>6709481
>"It" is never used for people.

This, OP. 'It' is used exclusively for non-humans, and top call someone "it" is to imply they are subhuman trash. Never do so. It happened to me as I was walking by some gossiping bitches, and it shook me up really bad.

I turned around and stared them right in the eye, and they got real quiet real quick. I guess I wasn't supposed to hear them. I was too overwhelmed to do anything but walk off to go get my lunch.

Now I regret not smashing their ugly bitch faces into the concrete and stomping on their necks, but it's probably better that I didn't.

>>6711401
This sounds like the plot of a Terry Pratchett novel.

>>6711401
It's true. And this academy just don't give a fuck about what people want for french language.

All their attention is taken by finding an equivalent for some english word we use alot. Like "tuning" or "smiley". But no one give a fuck about this and we continue to use theses words. Officially the neutral "iel" is not recognized, and this academy just don't give a fuck about people asking for it.

>>6711338
Malheureusement, et pourtant, je suis pas complotiste du tout, hein, mais ça y ressemble tout de même. On peut y voir un facheux hasard que ce débat sorte pile poil la même semaine que l'état d'urgence qui lui est complètement passé sous silence. Alors après c'est pas LE complot de ouf. Mais faut être lucide quand même, y'en a, des fois. Très loins de moi les théories du complot sur le premier pas sur la lune ou les attentas du 11 septembre tout de même.

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>>6709409
Même si ça peut leur tenir à coeur pour certain, je trouve ça un peu ridicule de vouloir que l'académie créer un pronom pour les personnes agenres, la langue telle qu'elle est donne déjà l'impression aux utilisateurs qu'elle donne des genres aux choses mais ce n'est strictement pas le cas dans la réalité linguistique.
Déjà que l'académie ne sert plus à rien à part changer l'orthographe de certains mots (absolument 0 utilité)
Faut pas croire qu'elle peut changer quoi que ce soit, pour faire changer les choses il va falloir trouver autre chose parce que c'est pas comme ça que la langue va évoluer
(No comment sur le fait qu'aucun politique ne poussera le truc en raison de la minorité que représente la communauté agenre, ni sur le fait qu'il faudrait au moins un bon siècle à partir de la création du mot en question pour que le truc rentre dans le langage.

>>6710785
Nah, it's hon

>>6710785
>norwegian trying to correct a swede on swedish
norwegians, when will they learn?

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>>6714334
>tfw belgian so I understand a little bit of what you said

>>6715953
Swedes are simple minded folk and need guidance. I'm sure the Norwayfag was just trying to help. And he's right b t w.

>>6716011
>trying to correct a swede again
reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee stop trolling reeeeeeee

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>>6716035