Lgbt and feminism

Because they only look at loud mouths, for one, extremists.
And, for two, refuse to see things as problems, because they don't imagine it would be a problem for them.

>>6600102
It's pretty hard to find "actual" feminists. Most of them into the actual movement itself are batshit insane and largely ignore statistics in favour of muh feels.
I don't mind supporting women's rights but I'm not going to go against statistics plain and simple. There isn't really a wage gap for example, but we do have a problem with maternity/paternity leave nuking peoples careers. Feminists would generally ignore that though and instead argue that despite that fact that men and women in the same position make the same wage, they would instead rather just lie and say they don't. They utilize the actual problem to create a fake problem and by doing so they actually harm themselves both in popular opinion on the movement and in the political world toward actually solving the source of the problem.

>>6600146
See, but that kind of thing pisses me off.
Knee-jerk reactionaries are really unwilling to hear about the wage gap, because they imagine it as like two people working at McDonalds, and getting a different rate.

It's about woman being the primary child care-givers. They have to have the kid itself, but then take time to take care of it, so they generally have to chose shitty part-time jobs that give less of a shit about giving their employees low hours.
It's about woman seeming bitchy and overbearing, while men seem confident and like good leaders when possessing the same qualities. Men need to demand a raise, woman need to 'negotiate'. That's a problem.
It's about why we value some jobs like the sort men generally go for, over those that women generally go for.
It's a lot of things, and it does add up.

Probably is, guys hear feminist issues and get into 'defense/gotta win' mode, rather than actually thinking about anything.

>>6600173
Ultimately the "cure" for the wage gap would be eliminating immigration, maybe even eliminating maternity/paternity leave because in reality it's a shitty social program, taking ALL of that money and implementing it into a social program to ensure that when the inevitable career suicide nuke that is a child occurs that women can earn the exact same salary as men after it happens.
When a women gives birth even if they go on maternity leave and go back to work they suffer from career stagnation obviously. This discourages women from giving birth which encourages immigration. Both immigration and maternity leave are social programs that cost the government money so they are in fact intertwined in society at large.

If you subsidized a women's wage after giving birth with the money from what we give to immigrants and instead just stopped taking immigrants altogether our birth rates would increase, the wage gap would disappear, and feminism would basically be accomplished.

>>6600208
Even something like day cares and shit would help out.
People paint these women as like, selfish, for wanting to take time off for work to take care of their kids, but then also selfish for asking for child care programs so they DON'T have to take off from work.
They can't win.

>>6600173
>It's about woman being the primary child care-givers. They have to have the kid itself, but then take time to take care of it, so they generally have to chose shitty part-time jobs that give less of a shit about giving their employees low hours.
that's an incredibly roundabout way of saying "we want fathers to take more childcare responsibility," and this isn't even something that all women would agree is a problem

>It's about woman seeming bitchy and overbearing, while men seem confident and like good leaders when possessing the same qualities. Men need to demand a raise, woman need to 'negotiate'. That's a problem.
this is really nebulous, and not related to the "wage gap"

>It's about why we value some jobs like the sort men generally go for, over those that women generally go for.
it's about supply and demand, not some conspiracy

>>6600248
>that's an incredibly roundabout way of saying "we want fathers to take more childcare responsibility," and this isn't even something that all women would agree is a problem
Takes two to tango.
Fathers don't have a career penalty when they have their child, no reason why a woman should take full brunt of that. I'm not saying men should take more responsibility, but it has to be done, and if men aren't going to do it, you can't fairly fault women for picking up the slack.
>his is really nebulous, and not related to the "wage gap"
How in the world is it not related to the wage gap? It's harder for women to get a head in the way males do.

>it's about supply and demand, not some conspiracy
Right, so you trust that implicitly?

>>6600227
Nobody will ever do anything about it because politicians simplify it all to a wage-gap.
I was actually surprised Ivanka Trump specifically talked about the child-birth issue. Still doesn't mean Trump is going to do fuckall about it though since it's not in his platform at all so he has zero obligation to it.
If anything it would be closer to a Bernie Sanders type issue but even then, he ignores maternity leave and focuses on wage gap in equivalent positions, not career stagnation due to child birth or gender-career valuation and such.
In general politics it's easier to take every single job and average it and arrive at that bizarre 77 cents for every $1 number that they like to spout off about. If you start using statistics it confuses voters.

It's a losing battle and it benefits nobody actually, even people against feminism because people aren't using statistics properly.

>>6600276
>it's harder to get ahead in the way males do

Not entirely, if anything women are excelling in academics over males, they are the student model, there are issues with the way work systems are structured but it would be facetious to deny that a lot of the problems that women face in the workplace (especially in terms of women holding positions in science related work) is down to personal choice, not enough women are choosing to join stem fields, even though accommodations and incentives are made for them

>>6600361
This is the exact thing I'm talking about.

>>6600361
Even in academia nurses are undervalued versus other fields like medicine (which could be said to be male dominated) even in equivalent amounts of research
Both require near equivalent work amounts yet there's a pay difference. Both publish papers on the same topics just differing perspective. Essentially the same field, nurses can even be a doctor technically since you can in fact get a doctorate in nursing, but it does pay less than a medical doctorate.

>>6600401
Interesting point, and I'll admit that nurses are undervalued, but once again it's facetious to claim a wage gap between the two and that they are essentially the same field, it's more about specialization, for example an anesthetic nurse will usually make more than a general care doctor, and what about female doctors and male nurses?

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>>6600102
Feminism is cancer

- Milo

>>6600466
Ah milo, I hate his contrarian attitude, but his ability to trigger and mine salt is unmatched and that's commendable

>>6600102
wut? Literally every gay guy I know on twitter is a self-proclaimed feminist

>>6600276
I'm sure the patriarchy is behind the fact that petroleum engineers are paid better than elementary school teachers.

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>>6600102
Nice joke.

>>6600102
If you're asking why gay people aren't allies of feminism, well a lot of them are.
If you're asking why individual gay people may not be allies of feminism, I suppose it must be for individual reasons.
Does that answer your question?

>>6600401
Nurses aren't like doctors in any way. A nurse is to a doctor like an electrician is to an electrical engineer, they know just enough to do their job in a hands-on-capacity, but have no foundation to know why they do what they do. That applies to REAL doctors (oncology, radiology, nuclear medicine, neurology), not family practitioners. Family practitioners are basically just overeducated nurses, and if that's what you mean I apologize.

>>6600102
I stand up for women by standing against feminism.

That's the least I can do for them, to help them help themselves free themselves from the oppressive cult of victimhood called feminism.

>>6600102
>feminist
>allies
Pick only one.
Feminism hasn't really "supported" any kind of lgbt related thing since the 2nd wave.
It does not matter what you think feminism actually is, the actions of feminism itself speak louder than the tiny minority of actually reasonable feminists will ever be able to.

>>6600466
THIS
H
I
S

>>6600823
>has literally never heard of intersectionality
Get out, neckbeard.

>>6601012
Get out, feminism.

>>6600173
>insulting, demeaning response

You know what? Until feminists learn to argue like adults, I'm not buying into their bullshit. Grow the fuck up. You'll have a hard time finding people prepared to sacrifice time and resources on solving your issues when you crap on them all the way.

>>6601054
Your part of the problem.

>>6601012
>has never heard of the shit intersectional feminism ruined for the lgbt community
>ignores that feminists are the worst thing that happened to stealth trans people and medical rights of deeply dysphoric trans people in decades because it focuses on normalizing non-transitioners/"demis"
>ignores that feminism doesn't own the monopoly on equality

>>6601054
lmao that's adorable! it's like he cant even see his own hypocrisy...

>>6601121
What?

Feminism is ruining women now, making them very undecided and explosive with pointing out "flaws" such as body image which shouldn't even be a women's issue to begin with. Feminists and Black Lives Matter already dropped the flag for the LGBT community because of their selfishness at disrupting a parade that was not meant for them and "acceptance" of Sharia law by not batting an eye if a woman gets raped by a muslim. It's disgusting to see people complaining about such minor issues that are 1st world problems and say they do better by making everything worse.
This has to stop or else we are doomed to live in a "society" where people are monitored for even looking at a woman or that woman not having her burka when out in public.
People want freedom, what these extremists are doing is exactly the opposite, shutting down voices with remarks such as "privileged" or "cis male who doesn't understand women".
You know what? Fuck you. Feminism turned to cancer by themselves.

>>6601115
Go the fuck back to >>>/pol/
jesus

>>6601202
Go the fuck back to tumblr.com
and complain about your shitty life you have and about your "real" gender.

>>6601193
It's truly amazing how far bigots will go to blame crimes on brown people. Women's voices have been silenced for all eternity, and now that they finally have one, your getting pissed and want to take it away. When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

>>6601221
Welp, there are too many cases now, your ignorance will turn into worse things once it gets personal.

>>6601221
Oh, I forgot, I sure do love you putting down people who actually aren't bigoted but see correlation between the increase of migration from countries that have Sharia law (y'know, that one law that puts down women and fucking kills gays, I think that's bigoted beyond belief) have increased crime rate from the migrants and all you have to say "b-but not all! Bigot!". Fucking kill yourself.

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>>6601202
Why the fuck should I go to /pol/? I disagree with them on almost everything. I also disagree with feminists on a lot. Oh snap! Shit! Can't put them in the US or THEM camp!
Grow up.

>>6601251
>implying that you are a complete idiot

>>6601221
Dude, nobody cares that they are "brown". Islam isn't a race. I have a white-as-snow german extremist muslim neighbor and he's a whackjob because of.. religious extremism. Because that's shit, no matter the skin color of the majority of practicioners.

>>6601221
>Women's voices have been silenced for all eternity
No they fucking haven't, do you fucking see feminism right now? It's fucking loud as they can get, why do we want them to shut up? Because they are sprouting nonsense (hey, I respect Westboro Baptist Church more than feminism because they don't fuck up all people, even women, for making debates and arguments) and they just can't fucking stop themselves.

>>6601262
Fearmongering against Muslims is primarily used to generate hatred toward brown people. You're "anecdote" is completely irrelevant.

>>6601256
>implying bigotry on opposing views that include vast amounts of evidence

>>6601262
B-but... bigotry!
>hurl back to tumblr

>>6601268
Hey, you assumed that we hate brown people, you're putting words in our mouths, and we don't like that (only dicks please). We have that the "culture" of Muslim beliefs are all relatively extremist, being a Muslim doesn't imply race, we are talking about the destructiveness of religion that is way behind schedule.

>>6601268
When did feminists start to hate atheists?

>>6601268
It's just an example I could have pulled out of my ass. Just like there are "brown" christian extremists, and your kind still hates those. This has nothing, nothing, nothing to do with race and all with religion. Stop framing it differently. Stop telling people that don't want to submit to religion they were racists.

>>6601306
>your kind
That's a nice way to sound like a bigot, bigot :)

>>6601306
That's literally what your doing though. Your saying "bbbbubut all Muslims are evil because this one person who happened to be a Muslim did something bad." If you can't see how literally retarded that is, your beyond help.

>>6601323
Muslim is a religion, not a race.

>>6601326
You are also projecting you're bigotry of Islam onto brown people, hence racism.

>>6601387
No, just muslim people, you're putting words in my mouth, which is a bad thing. ISIS is recruiting non-muslims to become part of the terrorist group, so it's not really the race, it's the hive-mind crazy talk.

>>6601387
Dude, they're projecting hatred onto women and gays. Why don't they adjust to our culture so then people can coexist in here?

>>6601387
Well majority of Muslims come from areas with Sharia law in tact, and where all the women and gays there are prosecuted for not following these rules. Heck, even men are prosecuted with death upon leaving the religion, I feel more sorrow for those people who are the victims than hatred on the religion as a whole.

>>6601411
Somewhat related
Outside of feminism, is there any reason why there are more stories about women, and most gays get swept under the rug? Not really trying to start shit, just curious.

>>6601441
Hmm... do you mean like stories for video games and other medium?

>>6601451
I should have specified that I meant Muslims still under Sharia law, my bad. I've just seen documentaries and the like mostly for women, and little to no mention of gays anywhere in general.

>>6601465
Hmm... well, I don't really know about that sort of thing, maybe the documentary only focuses on certain topics that could influence a domino effect or something (I honestly don't know, I have no clue which documentary you're talking about so I don't know if the business has some kind of bias). It would be more fishy if they were mentioned for a brief moment and then left out.

>>6601323
I'm against all religions. I hate them all equally. Not the religious people, their religion. I gave that example because he's a white muslim extremist to show you that it has nothing to do with him being "brown" or whatever. I think being religious is a sad character flaw in everyone religious I meet, but the rest of their character could make up for it. I do not hate religious or "brown" people. I do not approve of their religion, just as any other religion, that's all.

>>6601491
This

>>6601313
"your kind" as in "people who assume you're racist because you're against religion".
It IS a special, certain kind of person- your kind. :)

>>6601323
I didn't even say muslims were evil or that he did something evil. I just said he's an extremist, muslim, white, and a whackjob (pro-Sharia, anti-gay, anti-women, pro-violence). I didn't imply anyone actually doing anything or judging them as "good" or "evil". I just said religon isn't the same as race and gave you an example of a non-brown muslim (extremist). Arguing against that basically means arguing against non-brown muslims existing, which is fallacious as fuck.
And I don't get why you'd feel the need to protect religious extremism. I even picked that out for you because with moderates you usually don't even really notice that they're religious in normal conversation and they mostly don't hurt anybody, even though I still vehemently disagree with their ideas, no matter whether muslim, jewish, christian, buddhist, hindu, shinto, scientologist, or member of a cult. That doesn't make me racist, that makes me anti-theist.

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>>6601202
Retard detected

>>6601121
Why are feminists so condescending? They literally infantilize people

>>6601387
Nice mental gymnastics

>>6601799
If you act like an infant people treat you like an infant

>>6601896
Since when do infants know how to type tho

>>6601899
"act" they even suck at doing that

>>6601906
Why are most feminists so mad pretty much all the time btw?

>>6601913
Because we don't give in to their bullshit, so their only way to "sway" the people who haven't seen their bullshit so they get people on their side just because feelings were hurt.

>>6601896
Don't you think acting like a condescending asshole is immature?

Feminists hate trannies so fuck feminism.

>>6601934
Most people do, when people say they don't it doesn't feel sincere, anyways watch feminists vehemently deny TERFism and somehow strawman conservatives and /pol

>>6601938
>Most people do
;_;

>>6601933
To be overbearing is not condescending and neither is it immature. It is the only way to argue with people too incompetent to understand retorts.

>>6601985
>to be overbearing is not condesending
>it's the only way to argue with people to incompetent to understand retorts

Sorry to break it to you but that's actually incredibly condescending, wether it's justified is debatable, why argue with people you consider children in the first place? And do you have a superiority complex or something? You seem fond of talking down to others and classifying them as inferior.

>>6602013
>why argue with people you consider children in the first place?
Because you would get fired for being a fucking white male!

>>6602013
Feminists in a nutshell

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i only hate biphobic faggots

>>6600102
>Homosexuality is literally the greatest threat to the patriarchy
Male homosexuality is the greatest threat to feminism, because they can look at things objectively and see all the bullshit your kind peddle. Bullshit such as, "we're one of the biggest reasons gay marriage was legalized."

>>6602078
basically this, more and more gay males are fed up with "3rd wave feminism", the reason of bc so many gay males support feminism is bc as many know discrimination we support equality, but modern feminism isn't about equality if not about securing female priviledge, many feminism know that, they can seduce and convice straight and bi males (bi males more bc discrimination + female attraction + idolization of the feminity and women by bi males) but not gay men.

>>6602157
With the exception of the gullible gays, which those are just.......

If someone tells you how someone else's behavior is effecting them, or if they feel like they need a safe space, if you're first instinct is to prove them wrong and defend yourself, you are the asshole.
Take a fuckingn second and ask your self why they feel like they need a safe space. If you don't think discrimination is really happening, make sure you're not just kneejerking defending your 'group'.

>>6602157
It's really not. But saying it is is a good way to shut down the conversation, sure.

>>6602203
>It's really not
Sure... ok?
Why?
Oh wait, is it because you don't like what is being said?

>>6602214
No, it's because I'm not some reactionary 12 year old on the internet who assumes he knows about the realities of feminism from memes he sees on Facebook.
Feminism helps and aims to help, both men and women. For instance, Take Back the Night, he had more than one man there explain what being raped was like for them, specially as men. How attitudes men at large had about sex and masculinity prevented them from reporting it, how they were taunted for it, how everyone's reaction was 'niiiiice'.
That's bullshit and that's a product of patriarchy, doesn't matter how much you like to poke fun at the word.

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>>6602196
My first instinct is to tell them to go away, because anywhere I can stomach going is not going to be a safe space. If people want to have a safe space or find what I say or my comedy offensive then they have every right to stop listening to it and to return to their safe space, it's the very notion that I must change what I say or a place must change their rules to suit someone's hurt feelings (rather than them finding or making their own place) that is absurd. The problem is what people find discriminatory is subjective; let's take race for example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQdYM0ZzOEI

There Samuel L Jackson tries to get a reporter to say nigger, because in context he's not using it in order to hurt or offend anybody. Yet there are a lot of people who would be offended by him using it anyway. So what matters more, intent of the speaker or feelings? This is the point on which people differ.

Or is this just another way of proving 'them' wrong and defending myself or my 'group'? Even if that's the case, and I am just an asshole, there is literally nothing stopping you or 'them' from just not listening to me and going back to the safe space. If a minister turned up to a show by Doug Stanhope and got offended by his views on religion you'd rightfully tell the minister he shouldn't have been there. Same rules apply.

What I'm saying is, in the most long-winded way possible, if you don't like it fuck off.

>>6602294
And yet you can't apply those same standards to yourself.

>>6602282
>memes he sees on Facebook
What the fuck? People still use fucking Facebook?
>Feminism helps and aims to help
Not 3rd wave feminism, that is just demands for superiority while saying that women are powerful and oppressed at the same time (of course, in 3rd world countries, yes, women are oppressed, but so are gays and people who break the Sharia law) and if they have people disagreeing, they go on a whining fit. They go on the news, complaining about the air conditioning or a female video game character for being misogynistic
>but that's not real feminism!!!
This is what 3rd wave feminism turned to, it's no longer helpful and damages anything worthy including the feminists themselves.
>Patriarchy!!!!!
Fucking patriarchy is a made up boogieman that people do not have a fucking clue about and use it in order to sound like a fucking intellect so their "argument" has value. Instead, it is a double standard and it a social norm that has been accepted, so tough shit, life ain't fair. The only way that the society can change is by knowing more about it, and things like feminism and religion (yes, and I mean Islam) are trying to make more severe double standards.

>>6602306
Life ain't fair, so don't aim to fix it!
Oh, so you think something is a problem, well I don't think it's a problem, so there!
I get to decide what matters or not because it's not happening to me!

;^)

>>6600102
>Feminists have always been allies to lgbt rights groups
This is the exact opposite of the truth though. Feminists have been one of LGBT's worst enemies since the day it was created. Go look it up. Feminists almost stopped the movement from even forming in the first place because they tried to hijack it for their own goals(which meant bitching about gay men and MtFs).

Feminism can go fuck itself. It is entirely possible for a group with noble goals to be evil, and feminism is the perfect example.

>>6602326
>Life ain't fair so don't aim to fix it
>Then points the solution
I'm sorry, what? Did you read all the way or do you have a selective memory?

Maybe having a career and raising children at the same time is not a realistic thing to do.

>>6602333
Trips of truth

>>6602333
Tell that to the fathers as well.

>>6602303
I can and do apply those same standard to myself, though. This is why I do not visit sites like tumblr or reddit, and don't go to feminist clubs or dyke bars. They are your safe spaces where you can exist without nearly committing suicide when someone utters the word cunt, and I respect that.

>>6602342
I think that raising kids and holding a career is a two people job. And alternating between job and young is not going to work based on the properties of work.

>>6602342
Tell that to the society that tells the fathers that they're not allowed or expected to take care of their children because their only obligation is to be gone all day earning money to support them.

>>6602351
I agree, as we have it set up now.
But I take issue with women being called selfish when they wanna take off from work to focus on their kids, and also selfish when they wanna keep working and send their kids to daycare, or skip having kids at all.

>>6602353
Yeah, you know what wants to end gender standards like that? Feminism, pal.
Wanna be a stay at home dad and wear a kitchen apron all day? Feminism is just as cool with that as a woman CEO.

>>6602353
>not allowed or expected
I would disagree with allowed, I would agree with expected, and that is because at first the one who earns the most is most probably the father and the one who is most probable to want to take care to the duties that come with thoroughly taking care of the child, having his/her attention at all time for support and development is a father.

>>6602332
He's trying really hard to discredit your arguments without actually arguing anything

>>6602361
2nd wave feminism =/= 3rd wave feminism

>>6602368
That's 3rd Wave, really.

>>6602374
I have to disagree with you there. I just find too many examples of women who are feminists that are proud to wear burkas, complain about the imaginary and blame men for issues that have nothing to do with them.

>>6602380
Well, yeah, some people are retarded. You don't have to take a test to use the feminist label, but gender role is certainly 3rd Wave.

>>6602399
Well, if they done that, then they didn't really do a good job at doing it.

>>6602361
>Feminism is just as cool with that as a woman CEO
Not really though.
Feminists have a long history of being completely blind to the male side of things. They don't understand that it's impossible to make change and achieve gender equality if they only focus on womens' issues. Making women CEOs is not going to suddenly and magically result in men becoming homemakers.
To tear down gender roles like that you need to be working from both sides, and that is exactly the kind of thing feminists have been against.

Society is sexist, and men may be on the privileged end of it, but a gilded cage is still a cage.

>>6602418
Yeah, tearing down gender expectations does that, which is what feminism wants.
Opening doors, opening options.

>>6602422
Feminism is only tearing down female gender roles, and they're reinforcing men's gender roles to do it.

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>>6602422
Nice dismissal

>>6602359
What you quoted is true in a basic way, not just in our society as is.
A worker who takes tonnes of time off or leaves the workforce early for any reason is a shitty worker.
A kid who gets sent off to daycare and never has a chance to secure attach to a parent is going to have problems.
A society that doesn't have children is doomed.

The only solution, barring some post scarcity utopia in 100 years, is for one parent to work and one parent to be the primary caregiver. If you want to be a career woman and have kids, you need to find a husband who wants to stay home. If you can't find that then you need to make some hard decisions. Wanting the government or business to subsidize dysfunctional households where everyone wants to be a parent and moneymaker at the same time will only encourage more dysfunction.

>>6602432
It's not a dismissal. Sorry you can't recognize it as a general issue of it doesn't explicitly have the word 'man' in it.

>>6602361
Yeah, you know who wants to keep those gender standards? Feminism.

Feminism is a word that holds no meaning anymore. People who want one thing call themselves feminists. People who want the exact opposite also call themselves feminists. People who don't care about those issues at all and solely care about an entirely separate bunch of things also call themselves feminists. People who just say whatever will make people like them call themselves feminists. People who just say whatever will make people hate them call themselves feminists. It is simultaneously all of the above and none of the above.

>>6602438
That's literally every label
It's a club without a bouncer.

>>6600102
>more of you could stand up and tear down this harmful establishment, but you don't why?
a)LGBT people aren't hegemonic.
b)LGBT rights is still about achieving equality, and not advancing an ideology that fights against nebulous concepts like patriarchy. In my nation the goal of LGBT rights groups is to secure things like employment/housing/policing securities.
When gay people wanted to get the right to marry they actually wanted to get access to real tangible things like: tax breaks, hospital visitation rights, estate benefits, insurance benefits, better adoption rankings, etc.
c)Most gay people want to gain greater acceptance from society. Not destroy institutions like marriage just because it is something feminists consider a mainstream shibboleth.

>Feminists have always been allies to lgbt rights groups and we're one of the biggest reasons gay marriage was legalized, so my question is this, how come you don't stand up for women like we did for you?
It sounds like you "stood up for us" just because your ideology treated LGB people as the enemy of your enemy. Not because you actually cared for the rights marriage equality would grant to the LGB community.
So in that sense the LGBT people that share feminist ideologies and agendas are already granting you the same support convenient feminist allies granted us. They aide your cause when it matches their own beliefs and agendas, nothing more.

>Feminists have always been allies to lgbt rights groups
Ignoring Greer and the other TERFs? Fine with me.

>>6602451
/Thread

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>>6602436
>it's not not a dismissal
>continues to dismiss others points and arguments with shitty justifications

JUST

also,did you just assume my gender?

>>6601202
I am not even trans and I know about TERFs already.>>6601115.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6H4NSBriZI

>>6602458
No. I've seen many a woman in the Internet who thinks the same way.
Regardless, like I said, they're all clubs with no bouncers.
People who believe that the woman's place is in the home, subservient to a man, without access to abortion, do it with a smile on their face and with a 'We love women' on their tongues. Obviously not.
Anyone can and will call themselves anything.

>>6602443
And yet most of the other labels get shit done. They pick a topic to focus on (gay rights in the workplace, for example) and have the majority being about that until they win. Feminism has 10% focusing on one thing, 10% on another, 10% on another, and so on.

And the problem would be remedied extremely easily by just adopting a new name. You speak of men being hurt by the patriarchy and you wanting to fix that as well? Call yourselves Gender Equality Activists, you'll immediately be distinct from all the other feminists too busy fighting each other or giving the rest of you a bad name, your goals will be made clear immediately for anyone to understand, and you'll likely attract a larger following with a more focused approach and be able to get shit done.

Or does that sound too much like hard work?

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>how come you don't stand up for women like we did for you?
>implying I give a shit about anything on this gay earth
>implying I'm not dead inside and numb with pure resentment
>mfw

>>6602463
And that's what you use to dismiss the very real problems with feminism? More shitty excuses and justifications?

>anyone can join but we can't action against those who do/say toxic things

Sigh, and when feminists are critical of the movement they get verbally attacked by other feminists

>>6602465
Because women still deal with it as the forefront. It's still more important right now to focus on women.
Keep trying to make it all about you, though.

>>6602474
Not really. I know the arguments are out there, but the outlets I keep up on, when the issues of burkas and shit come up, there's always a heated debate.
Obviously the least offensive, most palatable voices are gonna get the most mainstream exposure. But trusting the news to get feminism right is like trusting the news to get 4chan right.

>>6600102
You know what makes me the angrier about feminism? The way that they co-opt social movements and then take credit for any successes they make. Feminism did not earn gays the right to live, work, and love freely, the gay community did it. Straight feminists did very little for the movement, and many actually opposed it. Look at the ideological war in the 70's between sex-positive feminists and sex-negative feminists or the one between queer and straight feminists. A small subsection of feminism was on our side and I respect those people (Betty Dodson, Nina Hartley and others) but in my opinion those people helped us because they were queer, not because they were feminist. The straight feminists have been against us since the beginning and it's not hard to find that opinion still.

And you can take your "No true Scotsman" fallacy and shove it. Feminists are as ridiculous as religious folks with that shit.

>>6602475
Deal with what exactly? And don't pull that wage gap bullshit, that literally a simplifies a nuanced issue into something it's not

>stop making it about you
Are you implying that you can't acknowledge two issues at the same time?

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>>6602475
So you're happy to remain as Schrodinger's Movement and be so disconnected and volatile as a group so long as you get to have a name that makes you feel better about having ovaries?

Okay then. I feel you've just answered every question asked in this thread.

>>6602486
I'm saying it benefits both, because it opens more options.
Women are still the primary victims of sexual crimes and harresment, and getting rid of that attitude that perpetuates that, whether it's attitudes toward women, protecting aggressors, or incentives not to report, also helps the men who have been raped or molested, but they're not the ones dealing with it.
Or to go back to the stay at home dads. More little girls want to be a career woman or something than there are little boys wanting to be 50s housewives, but they stand to benefit as well, even if more of the focus is telling girls they should strive to do what they want.

>>6602468
oh look another white gay male who won't admit he's living life on easymode

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blame 3rd wave feminism. they turn feminism into something ugly and toxic.

>>6602494
That attitude in that show is precisely why you can't erase the female aspect. Shame you get behind something that doesn't explicitly benefit you.

I'm pro-LGBT, that doesn't mean I'm not also rooting for straight people and the issues they deal with. Same as feminism.
You're allowed to have more than one label, friend.

>>6602500
This is the exact kind of mentality that leads to genderneutral dragonkin planetsexual furrydrogynous fags, don't be that kind of prick.

>>6602505
Because people are offended at the notion of examining their own actions.
It's not just feminism. Oh, gays want the right to be married? That's a legitimate thing. Gays start saying it's wrong for you to shout faggot at them in the street? Oh, that's different! Now it's some nebulous social issue!

>>6602508
You are allowed to have more than one label. I've never said otherwise.

But feminism as a label means two hundred different things, things that usually oppose each other no less, thus there's no clear purpose for it and as such no point. From the third wave one feminism has achieved nothing and just claimed victories its had no part in.

>>6602480
>expecting the media to get feminism right

You have a slight point but it's facetious to not acknowledge that several of the most popular news sources (in western countries bat least) are championing (white) feminism as the end all of all the worlds problems, and that large number of feminists believe this and act on these ideals portrayed in news media, no matter how "white centric" and trivial the issues are, intersecional feminism from what I've seen in person is incredibly flawed bas well focusing almost entirely on black women and creating greater divisions within the movement, I'm not even anti feminists, I just don't like the structure of the movements and the trivialities of the issues that mainstream feminism tackles, I would like to part of a group that believes in gender equality without the blatant favoritism and acknowledges more than one view point, unfortunately the label egalitarianism seems contrarian at its core and is very vilified and has even more structural problems than feminism

>>6602528
Feminism is the social, political, and economic equality of women.
If some retard with too much time on her hands adopts the label and spouts some bullshit, I don't give any more of a shit than I do about some teenager wearing a Zeppelin shirt they bought from Spencer's. Still like Led Zeppelin, still am a feminist.

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>>6602500
1. I'm a white, cis lesbian so two out of three ain't bad I guess.
2. being a gay guy is hardly "easymode".

>>6602512
Exactly this.

>>6602536
Let me preface this with saying that I do NOT agree with BLM and how they're going about things, but if you're one of these people that's post, 'UGH! ALL lives matter', then you're missing the point of the phrase.

>>6602543
And that's fine and all but we're talking about feminism as a political movement about activism, about actually trying to get shit done, we're not talking about a fucking hashtag on Twitter. When those people adopting the label actively hold back the movement and them spouting their bullshit pollutes the ideology and confuses the goals, it's time to start again.

>>6600102
Because feminists still have this weird idea that white women no equals in western society. It's the same message as republican christians in america claiming to be oppressed by minorities and muslims; they aren't oppressed, they actually have more rights and freedoms than anyone else in society.

There is no one with more freedom and easy of lifestyle than a middle-upper class white woman in a western developed nation. They then turn around and claim to be down trodden and oppressed and appropriate racial minorities, LGBT and poor individuals' causes to garner support from other middle-upper class white women saying "look at all these people that are clearly oppressed, we are just like them, please give us your support and we'll pass it on to them, honest!"

>>6602498
>women are the primary victims of sexual assult and harassment

I thought recent studies showed that men experience sexual violence at nearly the same rate as women, not that it should be used to dismiss that as an issue for women, but there is a very obvious bias in which gender gets more attention and help for it, and its not something that can be so easily blamed on the "patriarchy"

Also whats this about protecting the aggressors of sexual violence?

>>6602549
"All lives matter", doesn't even make sense in a movement to end police brutality, it would be "our lives mstter". Usually the "all lives matter" people are really "blue lives matter" people.

>>6602520
>Gays start saying it's wrong for you to shout faggot at them in the street? Oh, that's different! Now it's some nebulous social issue!
No it's not a nebulous social issue at all in my nation, because the law and the people that value free speech rights are clear on this.
Yelling "faggot" at me in public is protected speech. And I am also secure enough to not pick a fight over someone screaming faggot at me in the middle of the street; so that wouldn't even qualify with prior restraints like fighting words.

>>6602559
Changing abortion lesgislature out west, to the point where one is effectively implausible to get, and closing once 'acceptable' clinics because they don't meet the new standards, do you not think that is a feminist issue?
Because that's still going on in our own country. The right to an abortion is a tenuous one and best and keeps getting tested.
It's not all about, oh, some specific person/sex is opressing me.

>Why don't you fags support feminism?
>Because it's just become about whining at people and arguing on the internet
>It's not about that though! And rather than linking to or talking about the projects we're working on and the good work we're doing, I'm going to whine at and argue with you for over twelve hours

Schwing and a miss

>>6602549
I didn't mention blm, but I also think that it's the most flawed social movement at the moment (not in ideology but in execution) and I'll agree that for the most part that all lives matter is a dismissal that doesn't help anyone, with that being said blm isn't helping anyone either and that I think it's hilarious how vilified the saying "all lives matter" has become

>>6602574
You're being asked to think about what you're doing. 'Social' issues are important, whether you like it or not.
I'm concerned that we still can't have any real gay content in a movie that isn't obviously a 'gay film' from the start without straights pitching a fit, because it points to a larger problem and pop culture influences how we treat people in the 'real world'.

>>6602571
Exactly. But the 'call yourself an egalitarian, not a feminist' is the equivalent to all the 'all lives matter' people.

>>6602559
There were still parts of this country that allow a rapist to get off if he marries his victim until recently.

>>6602588
It just sucks because all lives are retards, and they SHOULD get the hate, but so should BLM, honestly.

>>6602590
>calling yourself egalitarian over feminist is the same as saying all lives matter

LOL

I guess I'll just say I care about equal gender rights without aligning myself to any label, or is that still gonna be vilified?

>>6602590
>There were still parts of this country that allow a rapist to get off if he marries his victim until recently.

Every part of the country lets female rapists get off no matter who their victim is and what they do after the fact.

>>6602575
Hey, at least women can legally get out of the consequences of their actions, as is normal everyone but women are left stuck holding the bill and the responsibilities for things she chooses to do.

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>>6602607
The tables have turned

>>6602607
And that's a problem. If women think women can't be rapists or if men think that all boys should be thankful for the pussy, that's part of the old standard and that's a problem. Fuck those gender roles. I think it's funny you think women can't also perpetuate the patriarchy.

>>6602595
We may not agree about everything but we found some common ground, it's usually my white friends that are blm shillers, opinions are slowly changing against the movement, it wouldn be good for the ideology if the movement was scrapped and rebuilt since it's failed on most levels, hopefully they'll stop hijacking lgbt related events too

>>6602616
Yeah, as a feminist, I think that's wrong.

>let's teach men not to rape
>let's not teach women how to defend themselves because they're independent
>go apeshit if a man doesn't want to go to a seminar on "do not rape plz" class because its demeaning
There are 3 things wrong in this, can you find where the problems are, feminists?

>>6602631
*would

>>6602627
>>6602632
And this is kind of what LGBT is to feminists. It's an issue, but only if someone brings it up and then discussion is quickly guided back to talking about issues that really matter, straight white women.

It's great that we could be your talking point in order to more people to fill up the seats at your rallies.

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>>6602645
My female friend was sent to a "don't rape seminar" because she made a joke about washing her vaj with scented soap, and her co worker got triggered

>>6602662
Well that sucks :|
It sounds like a funny joke actually.

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>>6602590
>You're being asked to think about what you're doing.
Okay.
But certain brands of inter-sectional feminism almost ritualized self loathing of personal characteristics and even promote shaming of others for their thoughts characteristics and actions. Which goes against very very very important things to the LGBT community. Like pride in ones characteristics thoughts and actions, and then overcoming society's insistence that we be ashamed of ourselves for our thoughts and our actions.

The reason why I am skeptical of certain feminist ideologies criticism of LGBT people is because I've learned to be skeptical of every other religion or ideology that is critical of all gays for not adhering to their beliefs or advancing their goals.

>'Social' issues are important, whether you like it or not.
I'm not sure I follow what you're saying.
I agree that social issues can be important, but more often than not they take care of themselves, socially.
If a guy is screaming faggot at me in the street, he's going to be known as a hate mongering homophobe if he doesn't offer a convincing enough apology. Then that person will be ostracized by the rest of society that thinks he's repugnant.

>>6602361
Lolno, that is bullshit and you know it.

>>6602571
All lives do matter. BLM was chosen as a name to start arguments, not discussions.

>>6602631
Occupy did more for police brutality than BLM ever could, and they did it by unifying communities, not race baiting, and not disrupting public events.

Not a lot of people know this, but Occupy provided lawyers to a lot of victims of aggressive policing and police violence.

I'm all for feminism. My mother is my hero and I've looked up to women more than men. With that said, a lot of the current strains of feminism are so regressive and illogical that I cannot support it as it is. That does not mean that I don't stand for women or take their issues seriously. Just lay off the tumblr and the movement will be a lot more appealing to the populace, but intersectionality is the word due jour

>>6602571
blue lives matter
it's not that other lives don't matter, it's just that blue lives matter ;^)

>>6606126
I was part of occupy back before the sjw infestion (not in the US, though) and that cured me of my hatred for the police. There were some amazing cops who supported us fully after talking to a few of the more sane supporters and provided a lot of legal help.
Funnily enough also against a local anti-fascist group that wanted to literally burn us down because somebody sour at a few campers for personal reasons told them we were nazis.
That night was a fucking life-changing experience.

>>6602702
>If a guy is screaming faggot at me in the street, he's going to be known as a hate mongering homophobe if he doesn't offer a convincing enough apology. Then that person will be ostracized by the rest of society that thinks he's repugnant.


THIS. There is truth in every statement, even if that truth is just the subjective truth that the person who said it is an asshole. Everyone has a right to be heard, otherwise how are we supposed to know who's a nutjob?

>>6602590
>Exactly. But the 'call yourself an egalitarian, not a feminist' is the equivalent to all the 'all lives matter' people.


OH, you mean that movement started by asians (chinese especially), natives and latinos? Aren't natives the most common victims of police brutality, actually? Didn't it start after BLM swept attacks against non-black minorities under the rug?
Fucking All lives matter racists, I tell ya.

>>6602662
>My female friend was sent to a "don't rape seminar" because she made a joke about washing her vaj with scented soap
what
what am I missing here
soap rape?

You know what I hate? I hate that male rape victims aren't being taken seriously by the judicial system and by healthcare.
I hate that men who are being beaten by their wives are put in jail because women 'can't beat men'.
I hate that men can't be vulnerable and have mental illnesses or emotions in today's society and receive care for it.
I hate how female mechanics aren't taken seriously in their line of work and that their customers default to their male coworkers.
I hate that women get shit on in the STEM fields and aren't taken seriously.
I hate that women are looked down upon as being unable to drive, emotionally unstable and moronic.

Guess what, all these problems can't exist side by side. I'm a feminist /because/ I want these issues to go away. So are everyone else that agreed with what I wrote before I called myself one.

>>6610375
Can*

>>6610375
You can have an ideology that matches a movement without having to be part of that movement.
My ideology is the same as yours, but I would never call myself a feminist because feminism is a toxic, inflammatory and useless hategroup.
The movement isn't about tearing down gender roles. It's about changing gender roles to privilege women instead, and that's wrong.

It's disgusting that misogyny is taken seriously, but misandry is considered to be harmless.
It's disgusting that sexism is treated as a one way street. That the only way it works is the people with power hurting the people without. Hate is still hate regardless of whether there is any power to back it up. Just because they haven't had the chance to hurt anyone yet doesn't mean they won't take the first chance they get.
Supporting people like that is absolutely no different than supporting a men's supremacy group.

>>6610449
there is also the incorrect assumption that groups like women or blacks "have no power"

>>6610449
Oh, shut the fuck up faggot

>>6610463
Which is exactly why misandry and black supremacy aren't taken seriously, hence my point.

>>6610471
>please stop talking the truth hurts my feelings

>>6600102
>Homosexuality is literally the greatest threat to the patriarchy,
I don't understand this assertion.
Why do feminists like OP believe that whenever I date other guys it threatens the patriarchy?

Also the definition of what OP considers "the patriarchy" would probably help me out a lot too.

>>6600102
Because modern internet feminism is literal cancer

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>>6602294
Samuel L is a fucking legend

>>6600102
Because you're an entitled brat and I don't wanna be associated with you.

>>6600173
Then don't have children. In fact, just kill yourself.

>>6601268
that's your opinion, and if you don't like it here you're encouraged to move to the middle east

>>6600173
>They have to have the kid itself, but then take time to take care of it, so they generally have to chose shitty part-time jobs that give less of a shit about giving their employees low hours.
Then fucking marry, there's a reason why humans create families. Also the fathers are already forced to pay alimony so there's no excuse.
>It's about woman seeming bitchy and overbearing
How's that anyone else's problem DON'T BE A BITCH.
>when possessing the same qualities
Bullshit, men are called whiny all the time. If you can't take criticism then get out of the job market. At any rate good leaders lead through example, not orders.
>Men need to demand a raise, woman need to 'negotiate'.
That's not anyone else's problem. Style of negotiation is up to the person.
>Probably is
Problem is men suffer from the same problems but no one gives a fuck.

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>>6602435
I'm glad there are sane people in this thread.

>>6602361
>Feminism
Too bad NO woman wants to marry a guy like that.

You never did anything for me, homosexual marriage was legalized when I was still a child and unless you are a 50 years old ex feminist, you probably didn't even help.
Homosexual marriage is already legal since 2005, women got to vote in 1918, pay equality was assured in 1977, abortion is legal since 1969. All of your goals are achieved and the patriarchy doesn't exist.

>>6601323
>This one person who happened to be a Muslim
Kek
These past few months there has been Islamist attacks in: Orlando, Nice, Munich, Ansbach, Wurzburg and that's just what happened in the West and that I can remember.
There has been other religious extremist attacks in: 0 places

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>tfw need to listen to these insane DNC feminists fellate themselves over falsehoods for the next few days

>>6602567
feminists believe that requiring evidence to convict someone is supporting rape

>>6600102
Fucking bullshit OP. Fucking bullshit. Most "feminist" are the kind of person who thinks all gay men are the stereotypical TV gay guy who loves shopping and gossiping and isn't really interested in gay rights as they are in having a gay pal to chat with. All the while forgetting that women can be gay too and are the same women who would be disgusted by a lesbian hitting on them. Tbqh whatever bs wave of feminism were on now is a fucking joke and needs to die. It's become a hindrance to all forms of thought that aren't exactly like then. They love to make the comparison of their enemies to people like Hitler and Stalin but their enemies aren't the ones censoring anything and everything they deem undesirable.

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>True feminist

>>6622674
>>>/pol/
bigot

>>6602567
note the many women's refuge shelters and none for men...

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>>6623927

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>>6622731
this desu

>>6600102
Well I'm a white gay male and according to feminists I'm not oppressed and I am in fact quite problematic and bigoted. Looks like I'm off their protected species list. They ain't no friends of mine.

>>6610375
>You know what I hate? I hate that male rape victims aren't being taken seriously by the judicial system and by healthcare.

I hate that a woman can point at a man and accuse him of rape and instantly destroy his life, regardless of evidence.

>>6610375
>I want these issues to go away so I'll be a feminist cunt and focus solely on women and that should work out for everybody

>>6622731
>everything about that picture
topkek

>>6600102
Because nobody owes you anything. Help another out of the kindness of your heart - not simply because you want it to benefit you in return.

I'm looking forward to the feminists finally revealing how petty and homophobic they are. They act like they own gay people and can throw them away when it conveniences them. A few have already come out saying gay men are misogynists for not wanting anything to do with women.

>>6600102
LGBT doesn't appreciate feminism for the same reason many feminists no longer appreciate feminism

A bunch of harpies who have crawled up their own ass so many times they don't know up from down.

>>6602435
Try raising kids with one salary where I live, genius.

>>6600102
>Feminists have always been allies to lgbt rights groups
They have NOT. They are fucking HOSTILE to anything except L.

Time and time again they have thrown G and T under the bus. They do love spouting "feminism is about gay rights!!!!" all the time, though, but that's really just their MO - they do that with everything else, as well, even Atheism is about feminism in their eyes.

And that's without even considering how feminism has been poisoned from within and it's pure evil now.

>>6611461
Sane feminists use "the patriarchy" in a "the status quo" sort of way. They don't literally mean "the patriarchy" as "guys ruling over everything and having their way every single time", but in a very short way of saying "there are gender roles we all must follow".

By being homosexuals, we are distancing ourselves from our gender roles about as much as we can. Culturally, being gay is the #1 thing a man should never do.


Of course, it's silly to suggest that this "threatens" the patriarchy. If anything, it's just a good way of seeing how much progress has been made through seeing how much backlash a man gets for being gay. A random 2% portion of the population can do whatever they want that it'll never change anything, they're far too few.

>>6600102
>not supporting patriarchy
>not wanting less feminism in every imaginable way
>not wanting to undo feminism's century in power

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>>6600102
Bait.