Why isn't there a male equivalent of TERFism towards FTMs?

a) there is a certain comradery between men that doesn't exist between women
b) society views the male role as less 'prized' --a woman becoming a man seems less like cheating
c) there are less 'political homosexuals' who are gay because they hate women
d) masculinism isn't really a thing like feminism
e) many men couldn't give a shit about this sort of stuff --being fussy is viewed as a feminine trait

>>6594182
Because trans men don't threaten dominant thought on gender valuation as badly as trans women do.

And hopefully they never do (to the degree that trans women currently do).

Most cis people are unaware that trans men even exist

>>6594182
female privilege

>>6594492
This

>>6594492

I think a lot are just seen as really butchy lesbians.

I mean, a lot look it or look like meek males. I've only met one FTM that really appered as an average Joe so to speak.

>>6594492
/thread

>>6594182
Because if you are a man you can't get away with half the stupid shit women say and do. You will get ignored, and if you take it too far, beat up. It's a much harder road to take and there is something to be respected in that.

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>>6595548
>being ftm is harder than being mtf

>>6594182
Don't terfs hate FTMs anyway?

>>6595583
If the mtf is not passing then it's harder, otherwise it's easier.

>>6594182
Lol, it's called the GOP

>>6594492
All of the trans men I've met IRL have passed super well, many of them were teenagers too. Is there some kind of gender oil wizardry going on on the ftm side of things?

>>6595668
I'll be honest with you its because most mtf's just sit on there ass and think hrt will just turn them into an anime girl one day

>>6595668
Testosterone causes big changes. If you take testosterone it causes these big changes, but if you're a trans woman and you've gone through puberty you've already had these big changes and so it's harder to cover it up.
It's a zero sum game, mtfs have a harder job of passing but have great options for genital surgery, whereas ftms pass a lot easier but their genital surgery is terrible.

>>6595668
When it comes to face and body, I think it's cause testosterone is more aggressive and its effects are more permanent. But they still don't pass that great because of the short height and the awful penis job.

Theoretically a mtf can pass better.

>>6595678
bullshit. it's just easier for ftm to pass.
MTF do more surgery, makeup, lazer, fashion, etc. than FTMs could ever dream of. it's relatively easy to lift and take roids

>>6594182
MRAs get all buttfrustrated when you ask them about sticking up for FTM rights too, so i guess they'd be the closest equivalent

>>6595583
>I am the oppression olympic champion
Get over yourself. Different people face different struggles.

Why do most MtF act narcissistic as fuck?

>>6595889
That's not true at all. Stop talking out of your ass.

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>>6595883
If drag queens can look biological as fuck without hormones using only make up and costuming, what's transwomen's excuse? I swear some don't even try.

>>6595929
genetics.

>>6595943
>>6595929
also he looks about as natural as a tube of lipstick

>>6595911
Analpained MRA detected

>>6595959
What you're saying is simply not true. If anything ftms are an MRA's wet dream because they prove that society suffers from a massive gynocentrism problem. This is the MRA branch of reddit about a FTM's story. Do you see any analpain? No? Then stfu.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2gxxl0/ive_lived_my_life_as_both_male_and_female_and/

>>6595946
Pretty > natural

People don't care if you're attractive

>>6596002
no, people would definitely take notice if you have that much makeup on, it's way past socially acceptable and basically signals that you're in drag

>>6594202
What are you even talking about?

>>6595668
It's way easier to pass as male than female, since males aren't held to as high of a degree (I mean, the expectations of what am an looks like is literally a fat blob to chad).
Even cis women can have issues passing as female.

>>6595929
Courtny doesn't look "biological as fuck".

>No hips
>Male upper body

Testosterone is a fuckload more powerful than oestrogen.
Anyone with any reasonable dose of testosterone will look (and to an extent act) like a man.

Anyone can become a man.

>>6596082
you act like its not acceptable for women to also be fat blobs too, in society's eyes
cis women who have trouble passing are either ugly, fat with or without hormone disorders, or straight up act/dress butch. or a combination of all of these
it's not as easy for mtf to pass as female vs an ftm passing as male not because of society's expectations, but because testosterone has such a powerful, permanent effect on the body.

>>6596192
It's both societies expectations, and because of tesosterone.
Cis females wouldn't have trouble passing if it weren't for societal expectations, just like males never fail to pass as male (they may be mistaken, briefly, due to things like long hair).

>>6595587
No, they're political lesbians who do mental gymnastics so they can still have sex with men by deeming trans men "female".
They don't hate us, they're creepily attracted to us

>>6596229
cis females don't have trouble passing unless for the reasons mentioned above which basically make them more androgynous or male-looking

>>6596229
LOL get this mad hon out of here

>>6595548

Yep agree 100%, ftms are brave mothafuckas who'll give up their female privliege when its at its strongest(teens and 20s) for brotherhood.

>>6595977
While I agree that men are disadvantaged in certain areas, saying modern society is gynocentric is utter nonsense. Being male is seen as the "default", this is indicated by our language, and if we use gender-neutral terms like "person", "employee", etc, most people will imagine a male.

>>6595678
8/10

>>6596366
>>6596373
Cis females do have trouble passing.

>>6596564
That's one of the only privileges men have though. Women have almost all of the others.

>>6594198
/thread

>>6594198
This. This is pretty much it.

>>6594182
because ftms pose no threat in taking top spots in male sports like mtfs do. Also most mtfs go through male privilege and take women's top titles in the industry (highest paid female ceo is trans, so is highest paid female filmmaker) but ftms don't.

>>6596258
>deeming trans men "female"
I still consider that hate

>>6596778
I wasn't really talking about privilege so much as how men are viewed as the "default". Men have traditionally had the majority of political power (of course, most men had basically none, but women, even of the upper classes, were pretty much barred from holding direct political power, and had to rely on advising or manipulating men), and that's what people mean when they talk about "male privilege". That power imbalance is less extreme today, but still there to an extent, even though the formal barriers to women and power have been largely replaced by "soft" barriers. "Female privilege" on the other hand basically comes from the attitude that women are fragile and need protection, their privilege doesn't mean that they have power themselves, but rather than men are willing to use their own power to protect them. It's basically a remnant of the old attitude of women as "property", that people in the West no longer explicitly believe in, but the social norms it created are still there

I don't think most cis men give enough of a shit.

Even if you were outed as a transguy, the worst thing you'd get is paid out for having no dick, but that happens to most cis men regardless.

>>6596564
>most people will imagine a male.
I agree with you that society is androcentric, but I'm not sure if that affects our imaginations or not.

>>6597381

I wonder if any female CEOs or filmmakers are salty about that. I would guess CEOs are more likely to be upset than the filmmakers. Also what sort of woman is salty about top women's spots being occupied by trans women.

>>6598871

I read that back when black and white televisions were common, people would dream in black and white, and when color televisions replaced them, people started dreaming in color again.

>>6596564
In certain areas? The fact alone that men are drafted and women are not is enough to close the case. 99% of men are treated worst than dogs.

>>6596564
>Being male is seen as the "default"

Again this is not true pragmatically speaking. Men may occupy most of the top positions but they also make the bulk of homeless people. The "default" middle is over-represented by females.

>>6598931
>what sort of woman is salty about top women's spots being occupied by trans women

Radfems

>>6599035
I don't mean men are statistically average, I mean being male is viewed as "typical" or "default" by society.

>>6594182
TERFs are just fucking terrified that someone society sees as male could transition to female and see that women's lives aren't actually as hard or oppresses as they want everyone to believe. If the victimhood mentality these women have isn't accepted by society they won't be able scream sexism every time they don't get their way.

They don't care about FTM because it actually helps their cause when someone transition from an oppressed, victimized female into a happy, successful man by proving that men actually have it easier, so easy that there are women who will pretend to be men to stop being victims.

Basically, mental gymnastics to make sure everything fits their narrative that all women are unhappy, oppressed victims and all men are happy, oppressive misogynists.

>>6595587
Yeah, they want to make us think we're just confused lesbians who need to be welcomed back into womynhood

>>6600438
Doesn't that sound infantilizing and kinda misogynistic in a way? Like, the way they treat trans men and trans women tells you a lot. To them trans men are confused and traumatized women in need of protection and guidance, while trans women are deceptive predators that need to be shunned, forcibly removed, and in the very words of one of their most prominent authors, be "morally mandated out of existence". Despite their ostensible hatred against patriarchy and gender roles they unwittingly carry their condescension of trans men and their hatred of trans women under the same social norms >>6598788 describes.

>>6600785
Yep, it is misogynistic in a complicated way. I agree with everything you've said here: they say they want to demolish gender roles but the concept of a trans person, a social abnormality scares them.

In general when it comes to TERFs there is no winning with them.

Feminine trans man? No you're just a cis girl pretending to be a boy.
Masculine trans man? Overcompensating butch who needs to be ushered into the lesbian sisterhood once more.
Feminine trans woman? Overcompensating predatory man.
Masculine trans woman? Not even trying to be a woman, faker and predatory.

>>6600785
>>6600811
Not completely related to the trans subject, but I also hate how for a movement that supposedly seeks to empower women's choices, it shames them if they don't follow a certain narrative, for eg "strong and independent career woman".

>>6600831
>Not completely related to the trans subject, but I also hate how for a movement that supposedly seeks to empower women's choices, it shames them if they don't follow a certain narrative, for eg "strong and independent career woman".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D9QIG36J9Q

The woman in the video touches on that in her lecture. I don't necessarily agree with everything she said, but she made some really good points that most feminists and trans advocates hardly ever touch on or address realistically.

>>6600935
>men are scary pigs and the patriarchy is real

Yeah nah I ain't watching that. Why the fuck are you linking me this trash?

>>6601218
Well, I did start off to say that i don't agree with everything she said.

Still, she makes a good point about older second wave feminists shaming femme cis and trans women for merely enjoying or just conforming to societal expectations of traditional femininity, simply as a means of survival. I know many of the trans women here have issues with passing and the huge impact it has on their lives. I know it can often be a matter of life and death as many resort to suicide because puberty made them way too masculine to ever pass as a normal woman. Sometimes it can be a matter of personal safety as unpassing trans women are at a ridiculously high risk of harassment and assault.

I already know the typical TERF response to this. They'll insist that we should just accept our bodies the way they are, and lay down our happiness, identity and even our lives for their their insane ideology. They consistently ignore the fact that people who were born male just do not have the luxury of freely embracing and expressing their feminine side without fear of violence and that some people actually have legitimate gender dysphoria where a physical change is very much necessary in order for that person to survive. They'll ignore the fact that females are privileged in that they're considered intrinsically valuable due to their reproductive biology. Even TERFs themselves partially benefit from the patriarchal social norms that reduce women to a prized sex object that must be protected and coddled at any cost. Their whole hate campaign against trans women and the mass bathroom panic they incited likely wouldn't have gained any traction if those social norms weren't already deeply entrenched in our society.

They want cis women to casually toss aside their feminine aesthetics and ignore the backlash from cis men and they want to exterminate trans women by working to destroy and dismantle the few medical, social and legal avenues that enable them to live their lives as women.

>>6601453
Well stated. About the legitimate gender dysphoria part though, TERFs will fight to invalidate that too. They do that for FtMs as well. Speaking as one myself, I was bombarded with cries of how I was a gender traitor, that no one ever told me I could just be a butch lesbian and not "testosterone-poisoned", that "we have many beautiful butches who detransitioned because their evil GENDURR THERAPISTS never told them they could be LESBIAN!!1!!1!!"

It's funny how they loathe MtFs but fight tooth and nail to keep FtMs glued into their group.

>>6601520
So basically TERFs think all trans people were just homosexual fetishists that didn't believe in being gay or what?

I'm just confused. I'm ftm, but I don't wanna fuck women. I don't wanna fuck anyone, or be fucked by anyone- my dysphoria is way too bad for that. As soon as I've got a dick, maybe I'll stop IDing as asexual and go bi, who knows, but this all has nothing to do with sexual orientation at all. Fuck. This shit gets me so riled up I enter blogging-mode.

>>6601453
It's really simple, in a capitalist democratic society people should enjoy what they want as long as they don't hurt others. TERFs are awful because if they actually spent some time looking at what neuroscience research on the subject has to say, they would see that there is indeed empirical support behind trannies having a brain pattern that corresponds closest to that of the brain of the opposite sex. The whole unisex bathroom debate is another result of gynocentrism where the evil man lurks behind the shadows ready to rape when nobody is looking. In my university we had unisex bathrooms, and for the 5 years I studied there, there wasn't a single incident that I know of. Both men and women simply didn't think anything of it. All of the paranoia is based on blatant misinformation like the "rape epidemic on college campuses" and "the gender pay gap", and all sorts of made up bullshit so they can justify their misandry and leech freebies from the government. The way I see it, mtfs are such a threat to them because if suddenly all men decided to have a transition, then nobody would be left to subsidize their useless degrees and raging bigotry. It has been a common tactic of feminists for many MANY years now to completely abandon facts and focus on a hole ridden rhetoric. They claim to be champions of equally but when men bring their issues they are called misogynist pigs, when trannies bring their issues they are called misogynist pigs, when family oriented heterosexual women bring their issues they are called misogynist pigs. Haha what a great way to argue! Bring up something that makes no sense and when people dare to criticize it they're misogynist! But people are slowly catching up and those professional victims will soon be out of a job.

>>6598931
I'd imagine the women who weren't expecting to have to compete with men are the ones who are salty.

>>6601562

Either self loathing gay guys or agp fetishists. Whats funny is seeing sillyolhon on r/gendercritical explaining how agp technically works and terfs whining because its a sexual disorder, not a tranny bashing stick.

>>6595943
This. The best passing trans women I see usually already looked feminine as guys (although there are exceptions). Even I was "mistaken" for a girl when living as a guy from time to time. I'm 2 months in and can pass ok, but I know others are not so lucky.

>>6600324
Well men pretty much built all of modern day civilization so that's probably why

>>6601562
From what I've read on TERF blogs like GenderTrender, 4thWaveNow, and Dirt's blog), Big Endocrinology is "transing" innocent gender nonconforming women and men to make them conform to the heteros. They think teenage trans kids with legitimate dysphoria are confused gay kids who are unknowingly being sterilized by transition--in their view, the ultimate gay conversion therapy.

As for what TERFs think of trans people who were "straight" before transition and are gay/bi in actuality, just slap on some good old Blanchard AGP/AAP theory and you're good to go.

I'm too much of an autist even without my dysphoria to be in a relationship, I stopped giving a shit about trying to be "a strong, sexy butch" long ago lel

>>6601936
How do they explain trans-but-asexual people?

because FTMs are socialized female. so they don't barge into gay male spaces, demand to be dated, and get violent when they're denied.

>>6595907
81% of trannies have personality disorders and about 50% of that is narcisstic personality disorder. don't remember the source, google it

>>6595668
Human males gestate in the womb as proto-female to start with, and then are masculinized by certain biochemicals expressed by their Y chromosomes. So FTM has an edge because it's repeating the process that already happens to create a male, just artificially and much later.

MTF meanwhile have already had that drastic change and are trying to suppress or reverse it as best as possible, which is harder to do.

>>6601936
>a strong, sexy butch
like such a thing is even possible lmao

>>6601936
lol, you've never been on tumblr have you? those are parents of "demiboys" who want xie/xir pronouns and testosterone. despite never showing dysphoria before, loving their long hair and makeup, and their friend group is all tumblr trans as well.

they're upset because liberal states will let minors have top surgery as young as 15. and that very young children are put on blockers and rushed into being trans if they do so much as play with the opposite sex's toys