Do FTMs have the same problems with MRAs that MTFs have with

>>6545756
How many MRA guys even exist? Serious question here.

Like most guys I ever seen in my life literally give on fucks about other men.

Nope. Only mra I constantly see doesn't give a shit, and sticks to his friend group, another I met once was nice but annoying and spoke too much about videogames. Mras just aren't common here, i guess.
Terfs actually give me more shit for 'misrepresenting lesbians' even though I don't date girls.

>>6545756
The only problem FTMs face are from gay bottoms and vers guys who don't want a man with a mangina

>>6545756
MRA's don't necessarily dislike trans people though.

>>6545860
MRA's welcome trans voices because so many trans women and men speak out about the very real female privilege they experience and the negative attitude society has when they present male.

>>6545860
they love cucked trannies like blaire white.

>>6545932
I've still seen a few that hate trans people (although it's a minority, and it seems to get smaller and smaller). They're usually extreme MGTOW nutjobs though. It's probably a bit worse in the MRA community, than it is the feminist community though.
Also, I'm not an MRA, I consider myself egalitarian. Just to clarify.

>>6545947

>the only non cucked vocal tranny
don't use insults if you don't know what they mean, familiam

>>6545756
Nah
I never really see MRA's give a shit either way over FtMs.

On the other hand, TERFs hate us just as much and think we're just brainwashed lesbians who need to welcomed back into the womynhood

>>6545947
No, a lot of them are okay with trannies, they are a little less vocal when it comes to trans rights though, I suppose.
Also, semi-related:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3amzj4/what_does_the_mens_rights_movement_think_of/

>>6545932
I was more interested in what they though of women supposedly "claiming" masculinity for themselves by transitioning to men.

>>6545756
Too many abbreviations.

>>6546111
I'm not sure if many MRA's think that though. It seems like you kind of have a strawman built up. I feel like MRA's do this to feminists too though, so I hardly care. I'm not sure why feminists and MRA's hate each other, and I think that they could work with each other for the common goal of equality, but oh well. Both sides can't see past their biases.

From my experience MRAs are not to FTMs what TERFs are to MTFs, TERFs are much more active in spewing their vitriol, because clearly we're just beautiful gender nonconforming wombyn lesbians who have been transed by the regressive left.

>>6545756
I doubt it a very common theme for people is thinking that mtf's = trans people and downright don't know ftm is a thing. DESU I think they'd be way more obsessed with mtf's. Why do these men suddenly want to become women? Because women are super priviledged and are starting to take over the world, Hillary could be president, yada yada, git back in the kitchen. Caitlyn Jenner transitioned for some sort of conspiracy theory where men do all the dirty hard jobs while women rule over the world and make bank.

>>6545932
>negative attitude society has when they present male
What? People treat you far worse for being a feminine male than for being a masculine female. In many ways, females adopting masculine traits is becoming the norm, even outside of the LGBT community. The opposition to it mainly comes from traditionalist men who feel that women being masculine are "abandoning their duty to be feminine and attractive for their future husbands" and making men feel less masculine. But being a masculine female really isn't seen as embarrassing/shameful the way being a feminine male is.

>>6546186
Not to mention, MRA to TERF isn't really a valid comparison, since MRAs are the opposite of FEMINISTS, and most feminists aren't TERFs. FTMs seem a lot less noticable than mtfs, so there isn't really a MRA offshoot focused on them yet.

>>6546204
>Why do these men suddenly want to become women? Because women are super priviledged and are starting to take over the world, Hillary could be president, yada yada, git back in the kitchen
Do people actually believe this? I mean yeah we're getting more women in positions of authority, but the majority are still men.

>>6545756
MRA here. My partner is a non binary female if that counts for anything. There are a few FTM MRAs I've seen online and one of the prominent MRAs, Theryn Meyer, is a MTF. you do you OP

>>6546245
>since MRAs are the opposite of FEMINISTS
umm, no
feminists are for equality for all. MRAs are for whiny manbabies looking to extend male privilege

>>6545756
mtf mra here, i certainly hope not. i don't have a problem with them, at least.

>>6545756
TERFs treat ftms as gender traitors and repressed/confused/misguided 'lesbians' (even gay trans guys) and condemn us for ruining our bodies and succumbing to the patriarchy...

See the dirt from Dirt, burnyourbinder, baedells, detransitioners and so on.

MRAs are pretty chill when not insane. TERFs are always insane.

>>6545756
MRA isn't a hate movement, and they have never achieved anything politically.
Feminism is the reason why trans rights and medical care is decades behind of what it should be.

FTMs should be having just about the same problems with TERFs as MTFs do.

>>6546245
>since MRAs are the opposite of FEMINISTS
umm, no
MRAs are for equality for all. feminists are for professional victims looking to extend female privilege

>>6546245
Society hates men, this is a fact. When a trans person presents male, either FTM post transition or MTF pre transition they receive the hate men experience daily.

>>6547137
>When a trans person presents male
or is read as male.

reminder that anti-mtf transphobia is motivated by misandry.

>>6547150
>reminder that anti-mtf transphobia is motivated by misandry.
That is why you find mysandrists, such as feminists, tend to be the most anti-trans.

>>6545756
No, FtMs have the same problems with MRAs that MtFs have with hons

>>6547129
Nah, TERFs see FTMs as just women who don't wanna be cos they've had a particularly shitty experience of it. Plenty of sympathy, no blame or animosity, maybe frustration - mostly.

>>6545756

Are terfs and MRAs a thing outside of the internet ?

>>6546111
I don't think they're real men. Nothing wrong with growing up as a girl and deciding you identify more with what you think of as 'the masculine' than 'the feminine'. But I don't think it makes sense to pretend they are the same as and face the same set of issues as men.

One of the main MRA issues is that a bit section of progressive society actively opposes mens masculinity and seeks to stop men from identifying with and expressing masculinity. This same group applauds and supports women, including mtfs, identifying with and expressing their version of masculinity.

>>6547137
>>6547150
If this is true, why are feminine-presenting men treated WORSE than masculine-presenting men? If it really is due to misandry, you'd think society would see men adopting femininity as a GOOD thing.

>>6548258
>supports women, including mtfs
I think you mean ftms. Mtfs generally try to avoid expressing ANY version of masculinity.

>>6548292
>why are men treated badly?
>this proves misogyny!

>>6548184
>>6548184
>Are terfs and MRAs a thing outside of the internet ?
Yes. They do stuff in meat space.

Do they exit in the real, day to day world and not just in academia and college campuses?
possibly but it seems to be pretty rare but they are both trying to influence public policies and opinions.

>>6548315
It does prove misogyny, because the men we're talking about are being attacked FOR EXPRESSING FEMININITY, not FOR BEING MEN. Masculine-presenting men don't face the kind of violence and harassment that mtfs, femboys, and crossdressers face.

>>6545756
My guess would be that they do not because
the MRA Movement != the Feminist Movement.
They are not the opposite sides of a coin. Maybe the ideology is (maybe) but the movements are not. The 2nd wave feminists established themselves in academia starting in the 70s. You can major in women's studies. They are an established power. The MRA movement is a challenge to established power. They are a disruptive force. Established power usually doesn't like anything that challenges the status quo. Disruptive forces usually don't care if there is something that doesn't fit in with their ideology; they usually only have problems with status quo. Even if FtMs do not fit in with MRA ideology (not sure if they do or do not), as long as their existence does not support the status quo of what MRAs are trying to fight, I doubt that FtMs would be seen or treated as a threat.

>>6545768
almost none. It's a complete boogeyman

>>6548404
>are being attacked FOR EXPRESSING FEMININITY
WRONG. If that was true women would be attacked the same way.

>not FOR BEING MEN
WRONG because ONLY MEN get attacked that way.

>>6548292
Feminine-presenting men are treated worse by society than masculine-presenting men because they are viewed as foxes trying to sneak into the henhouse.

There is a belief by these people that anyone born with a penis is rotten to the very core and incapable of possessing the stereotypical levels of empathy/femininity of a vagina haver.

>>6548504
>WRONG because ONLY MEN get attacked that way.
But not men that present as masculine.

>>6548572
You're pretty much describing the TERF's attitude. Among mainstream society though, it's more that feminine men are abandoning their "social duty" of living the strong, dominant male role.

>>6548292
Yes, that is what I mean. The progressive crowd really applauds women doing things that are traditionally considered masculine. Math, rocket-science, business, being aggressive in social relationships. Ftms I think get a lot of approval for taking that to the level of actually taking on the male role.

>>6548404
I don't agree with this though. It's true that men are often attacked for expressing femininity but you're a little sheltered if you haven't also seen men attacked for acting masculine. A lot of pretty normal male behavior is considered threatening, violent, anti-social, sexually violent etc. There's this idea of the hyper-masculine guy that is universally revered and rewarded for his manly exertions with money and women, Chad or whatever, but its bullshit. The boys from middleclass families get bullied and guilted by parents and teachers for acting male. The boys from lowerclass families get beaten and punished and that's no more vicious than the violent pecking order they enforce on each other.

Yes there are differences, they don't face the same kind of violence. But you will be very surprised if you honestly think a straight boy growing up in a poor area deals with less violence than a gay or gender non-conforming person in the same place.

>>6548580
>men get held to a higher standard
>won't someone think of the women!

>>6548590
>but you're a little sheltered if
Or she's deliberately ignoring what she knows because it doesn't fit her female victimhood narrative.

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http://youtu.be/aHizlEaXLRs do u see what I mean?

>>6548624
Could be, but either way it would be a little silly for us to expect someone who is female or presents female to have much of an idea what happens to males who present masculine.

One problem I do have with MRA's is as men they felt very pressured to be self-sacrificially understanding of everyone else while ignoring themselves. But when they backlash against that role... Instead of going, hey that was bullshit that I had to be self-sacrificing, no one should be expected to do that. They go, hey it's bullshit that everyone else is not as self-sacrificing as me. "How dare they not ignore their issues to deal with mine the way I had to ignore my issues to deal with theirs!"

>>6548714
>MRA's
>as men
Except MRA's aren't all men.

>>6548619
Men do get held to a higher standard, but that is not the REASON WHY mtfs have it so bad. Otherwise, cis men would have it just as bad. The reason mtfs have it so bad isn't because people hate men, but because people think it's wrong for a man to be feminine. Non-feminine men don't get nearly as much hate.

>>6545839
That, and being murdered.

>>6546160
Feminists have a history of silencing MRAs when they want to talk about men's issues. So much for feminism being about "equality for everyone"

>>6546257
Yeah we could totally elect a female president if the system was designed specifically to prevent females from entering positions of power - oh wait

>>6548751
Yes, I think feeling pressured to be self-sacrificing and ignoring their own issues was the experience MRAs had 'as men'. Other men who had different experiences as men tend not to go MRA.

>>6548590
>I don't agree with this though. It's true that men are often attacked for expressing femininity but you're a little sheltered if you haven't also seen men attacked for acting masculine. A lot of pretty normal male behavior is considered threatening, violent, anti-social, sexually violent etc. There's this idea of the hyper-masculine guy that is universally revered and rewarded for his manly exertions with money and women, Chad or whatever, but its bullshit. The boys from middleclass families get bullied and guilted by parents and teachers for acting male. The boys from lowerclass families get beaten and punished and that's no more vicious than the violent pecking order they enforce on each other.
I hear this sort of thing a lot, but in practice I've not seen any evidence of it. Yes, a lot of feminists complain about "traditionally male" behavior, but I live in a pretty liberal/progressive area and I see basically none of that in mainstream society. In middle school (and this was like 2008 mind you, not 1980 or something) it was even possible for boys to play rough with each other in front of the teacher, and even if one of the boys was clearly not willing, the teachers would do nothing and just write it off as "boys will be boys".

>But you will be very surprised if you honestly think a straight boy growing up in a poor area deals with less violence than a gay or gender non-conforming person in the same place.
Gay and trans people are definitely at greater risk for violence; just because everyone is at some risk of violence doesn't change that.

>>6549052
"Prevent" does not mean "stops it from happening 100% of the time". Our law enforcement system is "designed specifically to prevent" crime, but does that mean crime never happens?

And, if women are not proportionally represented in positions of political power, there's likely a reason for that. Sure, random chance plays a part, but on a national scale you'd expect it to even out. The evidence suggests either that bias against women is limiting their political success, or that women are less suited for political careers than men (in reality, it's likely a combination of the two - even if there's no innate biological reason for women to be worse politicians, their upbringing probably does less to prepare them for it). In any case, there's a reason why there's far more men then women in politics. And the fact that there are SOME women in politics doesn't even remotely count as proof that there ISN'T some kind of bias or discrimination holding them back.

>>6549163
Maybe women just aren't as interested in becoming politicians. Why aren't there 50/50 male and female nurses, teachers, miners? Why would you expect jobs to have gender equity when women and men do in fact have different tastes and interests?
The fact that there are women in politics does prove that women aren't being prevented from entering the field. And this isn't at all comparable to crime prevention - that's flat out retarded.

>>6549209
>The fact that there are women in politics does prove that women aren't being prevented from entering the field.
Again, you're making the mistake of viewing prevention as being a strict binary thing. It's not. Because even in the 1920s we had female politicians - are you going to argue that women weren't being prevented from entering the field then either? If so, why are there even more women in politics now?

>>6549067
I think that anon meant female MRAs exist.
I still don't get how that applies to the conversation though

>>6546735
>feminists are for equality for all.
Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

>>6545756
No Ftms don't have problems from any group and they're actively supported by lesbians and feminists even to the point of exclusion of mtfs.

They also pass easier, don't have to spend million hours training their voices, can wear clothing of their choice from early childhood and, unlike most trans women, are accepted in all women's and lesbian spaces.

Yes I'm a bitter tranny. Sue me.

>>6553497
They are also hated by terfs though. Also if any ftm wanted to be in a female only space it would invalidate them to me.

Plus it's not all good, being a short man is arguably much worse than being a tall woman, and ftm surgery is not as advanced as mtf

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>>6553497
Oh you

>equality
That ideal has been living in a trash can since the trash can has been invented.
Which at least gives it a home.

>>6553509
>They are also hated by terfs though.
All the TERFs I've seen looked as masculine as FtMs so I'm guessing a lot of them are repressed trannies looking to lash out and that the rest are just horrible people who have implicit social blessing to be bigoted (because you can't be bigoted against "men").

>Also if any ftm wanted to be in a female only space it would invalidate them to me.
To me as well and yet in they go. It's a well noted fact that FtMs tend to be very common in women's and lesbian spaces including woman only and lesbian only spaces

>Plus it's not all good, being a short man is arguably much worse than being a tall woman
I agree when it comes to dating women but huge proportion of Ftms are either gay or bi. Plus, because T makes them pass so well it invalidates that completely.

> and ftm surgery is not as advanced as mtf
That one I agree with. But I'd venture to say ftms are much more balanced than mtfs because they didn't have to dress like the wrong gender until they were 18+ (but most commonly into the 20s or even 30s) and they don't carry or understand the incredible shame you're made to feel to be a "guy" wearing woman's clothing. A "woman" wearing man's clothing is normal so that terribly intense feeling of shame and self disgust isn't there.

Also FtMs seem to have a lot more partners than MtFs. Most MtFs I know didn't date until after the transition whereas it seems like every ftm had an active dating life for ages. That matters for overall mental health.

>>6553540
>Plus, because T makes them pass so well it invalidates that completely.
>>>/fit/37865984

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There are male TERFs

>>6555599
I feel bad for him, imagine how much he must hate himself.

>>6553062
that's literally the definition, manbaby. stop whinging and go back to you're mountain dew and world of warcraft

>>6555739
>feminism
>definition: movement for women by women

Feminists have only tried rebranding their female supremacy movement in recent years because of some bad press but it's still the same thing it's always been - a movement exclusively for women to get as many rights and privileges and social standing as possible.

>>6555775
Feminism has traditionally been a movement to move closer to gender equality by granting women rights which men have and which women lack.

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>>6555888
??

>>6555702
I cropped out the rest of his post but basically he found out that all the cool kids in his area are lefties and he wanted to fit in but he still wanted to be a bigot so naturally he gravitated to TERF ideology.

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>>6546735
> Equality for all
> MRAs are the whiney man babys
Okay famalam, whatever you say. I'm sure feminists would NEVER constantly rally around pointless shit that is too stupid to even be a first world problem. NEVER.

>>6553497
>are accepted in all women's and lesbian spaces

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha I love being grouped in those spaces because retards think I'm more of a woman than an MTF what a privilege

>>6548999
Who the fuck bothers to murder FTMs? It's MTFs that get murdered by men.

>>6557412
Maybe there's no mtfs around to kill and the men are in killing moods?

>>6557709
good luck killing a ftm with there lightning speed and super human strength

I'm FtM and obviously a feminist because I've seen and lived the shit women have to put up with.

MRAs can suck my dick. "Equality feels like oppression when you're used to privilege" describes them perfectly.

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>>6558033
>women and children first
privilege sure sounds like dieing sometimes

>>6558033
I'm an FtM and I'm on neither side because I'm not a fucking idiot who thinks men have it better or women have it better. Each side has their advantages and disadvantages.

>>6561263
Women and children first has never been official protocal, and even when it has been used hasn't actually helped the survival rates of women and children

>>6561491
> Each side has their advantages and disadvantages.
True - but women's disadvantages are more numerous and more annoying. Men have a few big ones, sure, but they only affect a minority of men. Being a woman is more likely to be shit than being a man is.

>>6546245
Listen, I don't agree that makes are oppressed or whatever nonsense, but masculine women are made to feel disgusting and ashamed, like they've failed in being "normal" (that is, conventionally attractive). When someone is confusing on either side (has a vag but facial hair, developing booblets but a very deep voice, etc) people get cruel.

It's just that with males the nonconformity is responded to with violence as well as ostracism, while with females there's less risk of bodily harm, unless perceived to be a feminine man.

>>6558033
The problem with modern feminist definition of privilege is that it's impossible to defend not having it by yourself, you need a group that is not your own group to claim for you that you don't have privilege.

Yes, feminists say that men don't realize they have the privilege because you're inherently blind to your own privilege but what about woman's privilege? Plenty of male groups and organizations claim women also have privilege and, under feminist understanding of it, that does actually trump any woman saying she obviously isn't privileged because she is naturally blind to her own privilege.

>>6564443
You'd probably be interested to read about intersectionality, which addresses this issue. It gets some flack for bascially 'ranking' groups based on what privileges they have, but it covers the fact that women do have privilege of their own.

They can also have white/race priv over others, able-bodied, neurotypical, cis, straight, etc priv that they can be blind to.

Intersectionality addresses the fact that feminism for a black lesbian woman will probably look very different from feminism to a white, straight woman, and that often we need to reflect on who we're actually helping.

>>6564496
>You'd probably be interested to read about intersectionality
I'd rather not read that shit. Might as well read Mein Kampf if I'm going to read those incoherent self serving bigoted ramblings.

>>6564541
What exactly do you think it means?

It's like the most self-reflective, accepting, kind version of feminism there is, that accepts everyone's voice has value. So many people seem to have this brainwashed misunderstanding about it and react like you did.

>>6545768
hundreds! and they all have youtube accounts

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>>6564604
>accepting, kind

>>6565129
Clearly taken out of context. If someone puts they are a "straight, white male" on their twitter, you know exactly what kind of person they are going to be.

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I'm MRA and i've been making posts alot.

I actively support FtM people, yet they are treated like Women, so they don't know what being treated like a Man feels like.

But i certainly consider them Men. And want the sexism they face to go away too.

>>6547131
>MRAs are for equality for all. feminists are for professional victims looking to extend female privilege
MRA is exclusively for men's rights. Anything else is just diluting the agenda, you can be an egalitarian if you want to push for general equality.

>>6558033
Lower life expectancy, disproportionate workplace fatality, unfair court bias, military conscription, lack of genital integrity, inability to opt out of fatherhood, portrayal as aggressor, lack of dedicated support structures.
Isn't it nice how the privileged group of society lives shorter lives, spend disproportionately more time in jail, are murdered significantly more, and also commit suicide more often? But hey, at least strangers don't compliment them, so I guess it events out.

>>6564496
Intersectionality doesn't fix anything. It still posits that men > women, it also just tacks on white > non-white, straight > gay, cis > trans, abled > disabled and probably other more inane shit. It doesn't help give anyone a voice, it just provides additional vectors for people to feel justified in ignoring other viewpoints based on privilege, and a way to sneak feminism into discussions where it doesn't belong.

>>6565648
>I certainly consider them Men.
That would put you in the minority. In the eyes of most men, myself included, their "masculinity" is taken about as seriously as kids pretending to be firefighters. They're obvious imposters and it shows

>>6565648
I'm FtM. So according to most I'm just a deluded lesbian, lol!

I'll never be a real man. I'm ending my life like a true degenerate soon.

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>>6571900
at least do it like a real man