Gender as a construct discussion

>>6495125
Going to start using the name OP.
Straight, White, Cis, 19, Jewish.

well, gender is probably "natural" in the same way bionic braces are natural. Yeah,it's not 100% "natural", but just an extension of what's already there. There's probably common difference in sex already, gender just forces them to be more harsh.

>>6495212
But what part of gender is inherent? What are the difference between the inherent aspects and the sociatal "given" aspects?

>>6495230
Dude I don't think that you can just tell which parts are "natural" and which parts
aren't. It's most definitely different for every single person, gender is different to everyone.

>>6495239
You're right you're right. In that case, a good idea might be to do some kind of neurological/psychological test to see what would be natural and what's taught for a lot of individual people, and then check the averages to get
conclusive evidence.

Okay fuck it.
I have been samefagging this entire thread in the hopes that some other real human being will join in but that has not seemed to happen. I will stop now.

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how do you delete an entire thread

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>>6495317
I am in a horrifying sociodigital limbo please help me

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>>6495147
(Jewish) pure coincidence goy.

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>>6495350
I guess it's true what they say about /lgbt/ (pic related)

>>6495125
Gender is sex. Behaving a certain way does not make you a male or a female. It is more common for men to be agressive and dominant and for women to be submissive but roles can be reversed.

There are plenty of men and women who break stereotipical gender roles. Trannies are basically the stereotype of a female combined with a mental illness that makes them wish they had a different body.

>>6495341
click on 3 dots at side, delete thread??

>>6495361
Everyone just hates jews because a lot of your kind is trash. It's just a cultural thing that you guys have and inbreeding that made you into ugly empty creatures that you are.

>>6495370
Those are all stereotypes and not actually true. Jews don't inbreed if they're not hasidic, and if I was hasidic, I wouldn't be allowed to use the fucking internet, now would I?

>>6495125
Gender roles are far more than just your choice of profession or how aggressively you're allowed to behave. They heavily influence every single aspect of our life, what is socially acceptable and so on. For some reason this is invisible to cis people and everyone likes to pretend that gender doesn't matter, but that's pretty far from the truth. Just look at how readily men and women self-segregate into separate groups. These groups come up with their own sub-culture, and that's what people are talking about when they call it a social construct. There is a biological basis, it's just that we built these social constructs on top of that. Women don't have a biological urge to paint their nails and men don't have some inborn aversion to skirts, that's constructed by society.

>>6495413
What could be considered to be a "natural" role decided by sex, and what would be a "profital" role, a role created more consciously to aid in artificial sociatal progression?

>>6495125

>This

I dont get this, its so fucking dumb. Sure its a social construct to an extent but for the most part gender is natural, its just a way to identify partners and reproduce in nature, there is nothing bad about it.

I fucking hate when people go and talk shit about this. If you were born male and you dont feel male then go ahead and be trans.

Its that fucking simple, i dont get lgbt folks trying to change eduction and shit to suit their dumb fucking beliefs. 98% of the population is fucking cis, and thats because the physical aspect of "gender" plays a really big part in nature. If you are an unlucky bastard who was born the "wrong" gender then change yourself, dont go out and say that 98% of people are brainwashed into being themselves.

Wanna be the opposite gender? Go ahead, but dont say its a social construct, its not you fucking moron.

>>6499424
> natural role
> profital role

I have no idea what that word means, and google and dictionaries aren't helping.

There is no secret society of jews with some ulterior motive deciding what's acceptable for men and women and what isn't. That's not what social construct means. Things like men's and women's fashion evolve in society as a sort of collaborative project, and they wouldn't exist if people were loners instead of herd animals. This isn't happening consciously, and if you tried you'd have an extremely hard time convincing everyone to play along.

>>6499617
>"There's nothing bad about it"
Are you shitting me?
The entire problem is that gender restricts us to a specific set of roles, and if we want to do anything outside of those roles, we're fucked.
I'm not talking about 2% of the population here, I'm talking about anyone who wants to go slightly outside the restrictions of their gender.
You know the issue about the ship?
The one where
>"if is replaced peice by peice over time until it no longer has any of the same parts, is it the same ship?"
That issue is the same with gender. Why do we have to label ourselves male pr female if we don't have everything that's included with that?

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>>6500430
>there is no secret society of jews
>no secret society of jews
>secret society of jews

>>6495125
>Is this the case?
No.

Gender is your brain sex, basically.

>Is gender a social construct
This was tried, by John Money. He sought to prove that gender was a social construct, and his "findings" were cited and praised by feminists.
He said that by reassining a boys sex to female, before this boy could form memories, that boy would feel and accept it as fact to be female. After following this case for a a couple of decades, he stated that it was a success, and that gender is a social construct.

However, Milton Diamond later reviewed the case.
He found that John Money had lied in his reports, and that his human experiment was a complete failure. John Moneys subject, David Reimer, did not identify as female, but wanted to become a boy. Later in adulthood, David reimer, decided to transition to male, without having known that he had been born male.

With this, it was proved that gender is not a social construct, but is based on biology.
I believe the primary goal for this was to prove that it was ethical to decide the sex of intersex children... But these findings, proves that it must be up to the child to decide which sex they want to live as. Some countries now have banned SRS performed on babies, and that the child has the right to decide which sex they want to be.

The people you see who say that "gender is a social construct", are likely feminists, who are against the rights of intersex people and trans people. They are bigots, true bigots, who will refuse to acknowledge their bigotry.

>>6501768
>The entire problem is that gender restricts us to a specific set of roles
It does not.

>and if we want to do anything outside of those roles
Those "roles" don't exist, and you're free to do whatever you want (as long as it's not illegal).

> I'm talking about anyone who wants to go slightly outside the restrictions of their gender.
There are no restrictions of your gender, other than the biological possibilities (you can't be a 3rd gender).

>>6495125
Homosexuality was proven not to be genetic, i doubt gender is (sex is biological, period). However, they probably have a biological aspect, we can't separate behavior from biology (doesn't mean we are born who we are). There are constants and variables of gender roles in different cultures, throughout history, after all, it's part of human nature to socialize and organize themselves.
I'm pretty sure gender would be learned behavior that was created based on our nature, like the role of a woman being responsible of the offspring.
And also, some gender roles are switched in other animals too, while humans have/had the man to the hard work (like hunting), the lioness hunts.
Source on the gay thing:http://www.hollanddavis.com/?p=3647

>>6501841
I'm talking about sociatal restrictions.
Of course your gender doesn't literally make you unable to anything.
What I'm saying is that if try and do anything outside your gender role, you'll receive sociatal backlash. What's the difference between gender role and natural quality based from your gender?

>>6501868
>I'm talking about sociatal restrictions.
That has nothing to do with gender.

And I really don't care.
If you're so spineless that you don't dare to anything outside your gender role, you're just human trash.
You don't deserve any sympathy at all, nor do you deserve any help at all. Just go and jump off a cliff if you feel that these "gender roles" are too hard for you to deal with, you're a waste of human life.

>>6501877
>Are you implying that me choosing not to do anything outside my what's expected of my gender says I'm
spineless?
>Are you implying that people who live in hostile schools or abusive families who choose not to express themselves fully are doing so because their "spineless", and not because they have absolutely juststified fear of their life?
>Are you trolling or are you actually blaming real victims?????

>>6501897
I know your kind, just go and kill yourself, cunt.

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>just playing devil's advocate bro
>just a regular, straight, white, cishet bro
>nothing to see here
>definitely not a crypto lesbian supremacist or tranny hater

>>6501902
Look, I'm sorry if I disrespected you and I'd like to get back to having an actual discussion in this thread. I don't know what the current issue is, but I'm going to stop replying to you if you're just being unnecessarily rude.

>>6501924
The only thing I lied about was my age.

>>6501927
You're a TERF, and you should go to TERF eco-chambers, to have your one sided "discussions".

>>6501835
I doubt that people are being being bigoted when saying that gender is a social construct. I go to a super pro LGBTQ+ Liberal NYC school, and we teach that gender is a social construct. I think the idea is to avoid making people feel afraid to act outside what's expected of their gender.

There's only 3 fucking genders
Male
Female
And attack helicopter. Gender isn't a social construct, people saying that are usually brain defective retards.

>>6495364
>Trannies

Tranny is a rude and offensive term. Can you fucking not?

Just to be clear, I do not agree that being transgender or having an experience you personally classifiy as a trans experince is illegitimate whatsoever. I am in absolute support of anyone who identfies as transgender. I just want to have a dicussion about what's genetic and what's implied by society.

To the layperson gender and sex are phenomenologically indistinguishable from one another. Academia is trying to differentiate between them in a way which is not mutually intelligible to the vast majority of people, and the end result is that nobody understands what the hell any of it means. I think feminists need to pick their battles more wisely, because they're fighting an uphill battle that they have no chance of winning. If 10,000 years of social progress isn't going to unseat 'gender roles', trying to redefine behavior as something separate from sex is not either.

>>6502015
I'd disagree. Behaviour and sex are of course related to some degree, but being of a certain sex does not mean that your behaviour is set in stone. Due to varying life experiences, as well as possible genetic variations, your behaviour can be different than what would normally be expected from your sex, and it wouldn't be your "choice". It's similar to how your personality changes. Though you have genetic factors that will make you inclined to act to specific situations in specific ways since birth, depending on the experiences you have and the people you meet, your idea of what your gender is can end up varying heavily from what be usual based off of your sex.

>>6501969
Those are feminist controlled places, which teaches trans exclusionary ideology.

There's no such thing as LGBTQ+, there's LGBT, and even that movement died and was taken over long ago.

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Skirts are a social construct, as are many things and taboos. However, to say that all of gender and the roles we play as members of our gender is a social construct is the core unshakeable truth, undebatable, and from which all other assumptions are drawn, is toxic dogmatic idealism.

True believers of that dogma have gone far out of their way to annihilate and discredit any group or study that doesn't fit the dogma. It's Stalinist to resort to fucking with people's lives and to attempt to bend reality to fit your political dogma. "Gender is a social construct" has been the basis for feminists hating men and wanting to throw trannies off a cliff.

The sad reality is that humans are literally not pure blank slates just waiting to be programmed into members of a perfect and homogeneous world. Humans do have innate behaviors, brain differences, and biologically imperative mental tendencies, and we are not all exactly the same. Society reinforces some norms in a way that lets us function as a group, and that's a good thing.

There is a great deal of complexity to humans. Reducing it to black and white assumptions is a way to cope with complexity, but don't fool yourself into believing your over simplifications are divine truth, and excuse yourself to attack anything that doesn't nicely slot in to how you wish the world was. That's all.

>>6502153
From what I'm understanding, you're saying that there are some "good" constructs that society has created that aid the way humans function as a society. What would some examples of those "good constructs" be? Do we need them? Would we be doing something wrong if we removed or heavily modified them?

>>6501877
> societal restrictions based on your gender
> have nothing to do with gender

what

Also, try going to work dressed like your female co-workers, and wearing the same amount of makeup, while male, and see what happens. You're allowed to deviate from gender norms, but it has limits.

>>6501835
"Is gender fixed?", "Does gender have a biological basis?" and "Is gender a social construct?" are separate and different questions. David Reimer is only evidence for the first two. I think you're misunderstanding the concept of a social construct, or not using the same definition you would use in the humanities.

>>6502204
I don't mean to seem rude but I don't think I have the time to explain it to you, my young jew. What I said was my perspective as someone who has transitioned 7 years ago, and behaves mostly pretty modestly and mild. I'm not here to debate a Jew, my post was a standalone reply, not a debate topic.

Here you are asking "yeah but give reduce it to black and white, good and bad." You're not listening.

Go out and live in the world or something. That you're fresh out of HS and want a black and white world isn't special, its immature.

>>6502083
How is it trans exclusionary? We've visited the HRC in D.C. and learned a lot about trans history.

>>6502250
I was never trying to make it black and white. You're talking about how certain roles are a result of a sort of societal necessity. I just want to understand how these aspects were beneficial. I'm not saying they can only be bad or good, of course theirs use in roles.

There are men

There are women

Both have pretty obvious differences particularly in the genital area

Everything else is mental illness

>>6502289
Do you know what the T stands for in LGBT?

>>6502204
>you're saying that there are some "good" constructs that society has created that aid the way humans function as a society. What would some examples of those "good constructs" be?

A social construct isn't bad because its a social construct, its bad because it limits humans in arbitrary ways based on superficial qualities, rather than ability. This is why some social constructs are perceived 'bad' and others aren't.

There are lots of social constructs that are 'good' because they facilitate efficient and meaningful exchange of information in a way that is intelligible to everyone within a mutually agreeable framework. Language, art, music, etc are all social constructs. They are things which are inherently intertwined with our nature as social animals. The fact that something is a social construct only tells us that people agree that it is a worthwhile way of doing something. Any moral meaning ascribed to that is, itself, a social construct. Yet we live in a society with morals and we can all agree that having some kind of moral framework helps us create more functional, stable societies.

>>6502295
(G)ay(L)esbian(B)ipolar(T)otally Mentally Ill

>>6502210
>David Reimer is only evidence for the first two. I think you're misunderstanding the concept of a social construct, or not using the same definition you would use in the humanities.
It answered all three.

Or do you not understand the concept of a social construct?
A social construct is something created by society, and doesn't exist outside of society.
An example is money.

If gender were a social construct, David Reimer would've been fine to be a girl, or a boy, or whichever, because gender would only be something that existed in society, without a biological basis.
Now that he actually felt that he should be male, it proved that gender is not a social construct.

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Okay, this thread has been shit. There is gender roles and gender identity. You are all arguing about different things but using the same word for both.

Gender role: socially constructed, involving clothes, traditions, association

Gender identity: internal commitment one has about their own body.

Gender roles ARE social constructions but gender identity is not. Gender identity is a biologically hardwired impulse that can't be changed (Look at David Reimer and Walt Heyer both were tricked/socialized/forced into being raised as the opposite gender identity and they both cracked).

>It is believed that during the intrauterine period the fetal brain develops in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. According to this concept, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation should be programmed into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in transsexuality. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain. There is no proof that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21094885

>>6502498
Gender roles are partly constructed, thats right, but they are still based on biological differences between men and women.

>>6502507

Yes certainly. But they are not emergent through biology like gender identity. Gender roles are humanity responding to differences in sexes. Biology does not command these roles like it does gender identity.

>>6502346
He didn't grow up outside of society, so we don't know if he would have had a concept of gender outside of it.

He only started living as male after he learned about the botched circumcision. Learning that your dick has been cut off seems more than enough reason to assume that you're really male and start living as male, even without some innate sense of gender.

Even if we are sure that an inborn gender identity exists and is fixed, we STILL construct a massive social system of gender on top of that, see skirts, makeup and other things that can be "for men" or "for women" or both, depending on the culture.

>>6502650
>These attempts to explain it away
Denying scientific facts as always, TERF?

>>6502650

>completely ignores the most logical and thoughtful post in the entire thread

>>6502498

Convenient.