>arguing with literal trumpfag friend over people who start

>>6057297
>discreetly get anti-androgens
Except for this part, I agree. I think that parents should be informed of anti-androgen course, or at least the child's doctor.

>>6057315
What if the parents are against it?

Make them able to get it without parental consent at 16, then. Old enough to make decisions, young enough to still be passable in case they try it.

>>6057297
Is it really worth subjecting the entire population to a treatment that only affects like 0.1% of the population, if even that.
I think awareness of trans stuff should be greater but to subject the entire population to classes on gender dysphoria seems a little extreme and probably will just create generations of confused kids.

>>6057338
I meant optional, discreet classes on actual dysphoria for kids who already sort of feel like that in the first place. Acceptance in itself would not be able to be transmitted just through classes, but through a shift in school culture and etc.

>>6057347
Would be pointless. There would be too much stigma surrounding the class so no one would ever take it.

>>6057297

I like that idea a lot.

>>6057338

It could be just one class out of the sex ed curriculum. And I don't know about you, but I had sex ed in multiple grades (is that normal?) so you could really drum it in to the kids who are truly in denial.

>>6057347

Making the classes optional would make it so some trans kids who are too depressed to have any friends (like myself, back in my day) don't even get find out about them. Plus, students who attended would have no alibi while they were attending the class which could open them up for (perhaps further) bullying, and kids who are already in denial might decide to not attend the class. Making education on dysphoria a part of the sex ed curriculum prevents anyone from being singled out and makes sure those who need to hear it are there.

>>6057297
Ideally, sex ed classes should do this already. Have a day about gay people, have another day about trans people, and then another day for daddys

>>6057594
daddy

>>6057594

What is the point of having one for daddies? All the guys who fit that archetype are too old to be going to school.

>>6057628
What if there's impressionable little twinks that realize they need a daddy one day? They need to know about this stuff

>>6057639

Don't they all already find each other just from twinks walking around in public and daddies approaching them?

>>6057297
We should just suppress puberty entirely for everyone and let everyone choose their gender identity at 18.

>>6057655
>just cause 1 out of 50,000 mentally ill people want to mutilate their genitals
>everyone's puberty should be prevented
>tranny logic
This entire thread is enough reason to bring back mental asylums

>>6057672
Kids are too young to make irreversible decisions about their body. If they can't consent to sex, they can't consent to puberty.

File: image.jpg (13KB, 225x225px) Image search: [Google]

13KB, 225x225px

>literally this entire thread

>>6057672
>test scores will go up since students won't be distracted by sex
>no teen pregnancy so less dropouts
>don't have to teach sex ed anymore so schools will save money

>>6057655

Girls would grow as tall as the males then. Then guys can't carry their gfs on their shoulders and spin them around when they pick them up. The guys won't be able to feel like strong protectors of their girls. And the girls wouldn't be able to get rides on their guys' shoulders and get spun around by their boyfriends when they pick them up. The girls wouldn't be able to feel small and feminine and that their boyfriends are their strong, cuddly protectors when they hug.

>>6057696

You bring up some good points, senpai. If only we had cheap GnRH generics so we could run a trial test.

>>6057297
I cannot say it is an ideal solution. the intent is good, since without knowing about LGBT issues, people will be confused. I would place it similar to how they introduce the concept of safe sex, condoms and such in phy.ed in this case.

however:
1) middle school is kind of late for people who have their natal puberty starting early. AFAB people can have period and breast growth starting while still in 4-6th grade and AMAB people can have their voice start cracking and musculinization starting near the end of 6th grade (at least in my experience).
2) government can mandate public schools to go with the program but private schools not using government funding are most likely not required to do this. also in the case of homeschooling, what happens?
3) passing does not mean acceptance. passing only makes transphobes less likely to distinguish who is trans and who is cis visually when clothed at a glance. the bottom plumbing can still pretty much out you when SRS remains being performed at 18. education about tolerance including trans people might help improve acceptance however.
4) not every parent will be supportive to the child in question, so what happens then? under the law for most places, parents are held the legal responsibilty and can make decision for their children until such children reach adult defining age. does the government assume legal guardian responsibility in that case? or do the child in question have the ability to all his/her legal decision at that point in time?
5) cost wise, what i heard for those fully-reversible GnRH? puberty blockers are expensive compared to your standard anti-androgens. seeing as every uncertain child might want to try it given the chance, how can you keep the cost down? what if all 7th graders want to try the meds out just because out of curiosity? or simply just don't want to deal with periods at all?
6) it is hard not to be outed due to changes in names, pronouns and dress unless you move to a different town.

I feel like it should be a small portion in 4th/5th grade sex education, but that's about it.

You know the one. The one where the girls and the boys get seperated and they each go to a seperate classroom and everyone's giggling because the teacher said "penis"

>>6058075

Tranny here. I skipped that one because I didn't want to hear it.

>>6058075
It should be in sex ed where they don't teach chromosomes as the end all be all to sex and it's more about what hormones and phenotype are.

>>6057297
oh a literal trumpfag? how terrible! I can't believe you had to experience such a disgusting human being first hand! to be honest all trump supporters should be gassed!

>>6058081
they gave all the girls little pink bags of girls deodorant and tampons

>>6057297
>allowing a child to do this
Wow, you literally have no idea do you? I regretted so many things when I was a kid it's unbelievable. Also, the possibility of them just being curious of what it would be like might fuck them up for life. Trans people to regret sex change operations op. So gtfo.

File: 1460256890328.png (180KB, 1390x1380px) Image search: [Google]

180KB, 1390x1380px

>you will never go back in time and force your child self to transition so that you can bump your tiny trapself's rump
living ain't easy

File: jacksonville-florida-sex-education-teacher-suspended.png (478KB, 624x670px) Image search: [Google]

478KB, 624x670px

>>6058650
Then the teacher got on the desk, dropped her pants and proceeded to demonstrate how to insert a tampon in front of the entire class. The future of tranny education in schools

>>6058632
>hormones
>determining factor of sex
So I guess women with PCOS are men. Eat shit and die you intolerant tranny

>>6058727
are you trying to incite the wrath of the irony gods with that 'intolerant' bit

>>6058727
how about this: women with testosterone and a dick are real women. women with testosterone and a vagina are also real women. happy?

>>6058684
Very few people regret transitioning. And the stuff that we're talking about here isn't even about any kind of irreversible aspect of transitioning.

File: 1446719542420.jpg (113KB, 600x600px) Image search: [Google]

113KB, 600x600px

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/28/india-sex-change-girls_n_885783.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penis_removal
https://www.hivos.org/activity/no-forced-sex-change
>iran forces sex change operations
>so if you're a male and like men...
>you have a sex change operation
GTFO FEMINAZI

>>6058727
>ignores phenotype
anon please.

File: 18.png (115KB, 336x351px) Image search: [Google]

115KB, 336x351px

>>6058829
what if youre BI kek do they make you into a futa?

>>6058650

How does that relate to what I said?

>>6058684
>Trans people to regret sex change operations
Learn to read, moron.

No one was calling for sex change operations, just puberty blockers which are very low-risk and reversible.

Anyway the regret-rate for transition is extremely low and regret over surgery is mostly issues of quality which is a risk with any surgery.

File: 1449844786068.jpg (26KB, 320x374px) Image search: [Google]

26KB, 320x374px

>>6057297
You don't see the problem that a lot of people who don't have the disorder will be lumped by incompetent doctors? And then there will be a huge backlash and it'll become even harder for people with the actual problem to receive treatment.

Think about how many people wrongly receive the diagnose of ADD/ADHD.

>>6060014
and how much that fucked up other diagnosis of us with the problem and worse, I couldnt get quality help for my Aspergers because they just wanted to slap ADD on there.

I can only imagine the binary trans kid being told they are not trans because they are too "sterotypical" or some bullshit

>>6060014
Transition doesn't happen overnight, it takes years and a lot of effort which provides plenty of time and experience for people to figure out if it's right for them or not and there's every indication that our diagnostic processes are just getting better at weeding out those who are gender non-conforming but lack actual dysphoria.

ADD/ADHD are much more broad categories than gender dysphoria which provides more room for misdiagnosis and even if we were to accept your logic it would apply to all conditions and not just gender dysphoria for some random reason.

>>6060061
But you could make the exact same argument of some people being shoved into the category of autism spectrum for an easy answer.
Why should diagnosis and treatment be held back for gender dysphoria specifically?

>>6060076
>Autisim spectrum easy answer
you obviously have no idea about how the condition is diagnosed,
it wasnt until recently that it even became not under diagnosed, the only reason it is now is because to a degree its the new ADD.

The amount of misses by trans people is massive, not only do most kids who exibit problems go back but being trans changes more things than not being diagnosed with aspergers. What i would have gotten are some basic accommodations, and some schooling on my issues, But what i didnt get was hormone blockers given without permission, which is basically less info than informed consent to some degree, which i see tumblr trans people stopping ALLL THE TIME

>>6060090
>not only do most kids who exibit problems go back
Based on a single study where they didn't bother to differentiate between gender non-conforming kids and kids who were actually diagnosed with gender dysphoria and counted all subjects that they lost contact with as having stopped being "trans".
>hormone blockers given without permission
Yes because that's totally what everyone is advocating, just free hrt dispensers in every school bathroom with no supervision :^)
Regardless hormone blockers are not full transition and are very safe and reversible and the better option than doing nothing for kids presenting with likely gender dysphoria. When we're talking about kids transitioning there's also a whole lot of therapy involved before and during medication.
>see tumblr trans people stopping ALLL THE TIME
If we're going to start pretending that tumblr represents mainstream medicine and policies then we might as well throw in /pol/ too and call it a thread because it would be pointless to continue.

>>6060076
But stopping mid transition because even after few months of treatment can fuck up people's health.

>ADD/ADHD are much more broad categories than gender dysphoria which provides more room for misdiagnosis and even if we were to accept your logic it would apply to all conditions and not just gender dysphoria for some random reason
Other conditions aren't being shoved down people throat's, it's a trendy thing to be/have a trans kid nowadays. No other condition gets this type of coverage on schools that you are arguing in favor of. The amount of misdiagnoses is ridiculously high for any kind of disorder that gets trendy, and for every person without it that receives the treatment, one that has the disorder loses his/her chance.

>your logic would apply to all conditions
That's the point, it DOES apply to all conditions, psychiatry is a very hard field because only now we're finding ways to link those disorders to actual neural imbalances. If you were arguing that every kid getting a neural exams so those with a different brain got into a close watch I'd agree with you, putting retarded teachers to talk about gender like it's something certain however is a bad idea.

>>6060160
>But stopping mid transition because even after few months of treatment can fuck up people's health
Puberty blockers are about as dangerous as a placebo treatment and I have never seen evidence or examples posted of it "fucking up people's health", just appeals to fear and ignorance, "think of the children!" "we just can't be sure so we have to wait! but only for this one treatment I don't like and not any others" "it's a plot by the sjws/big pharma/foreign enemies!".

>Other conditions aren't being shoved down people throat's, it's a trendy thing to be/have a trans kid nowadays.
I'd love to see some actual numbers that show this horrible huge trend of countless kids having it shoved down their throat being forced to transition against their will but all /pol/tards have is articles about trans kids in the news and more appeals to fear and ignorance "the parents are obviously sjws forcing their kid to do this, just look at them!"

>No other condition gets this type of coverage on schools that you are arguing in favor of.
Maybe they should, like with trans kids some conditions like autism are much more effectively treated when treatment starts earlier rather than later.
My mother is actually a speech-pathologist who works with kids with various disorders that can effect schooling and life and many are better treated as early as possible.

>The amount of misdiagnoses is ridiculously high for any kind of disorder that gets trendy, and for every person without it that receives the treatment, one that has the disorder loses his/her chance.
lol I'd LOVE to see some actual numbers for and not just fear mongering of what could happen, and of course your logic only counts as a reason to delay treatment for trans kids right? Not kids with autism or other disorders?

>>6060205
Testosterone blockers lead to gyno in boys, can lead to osteoporosis, not to mention a list of a ton of other side effects. Look at the baroque castrati they suffered numerous health and emotional problems without testosterone. Men's bodies need testosterone to function. Besides blocking puberty for 100% of the population just to benefit the .001% that is actually trans is the epitome of insanity.
Good luck trying to convice lawmakers and doctors to force parents to do this to their children. Guess what a parent has the right to do whatever they want to their child within the law and as long as it's not harmful. Depriving your child of their natural biological puberty is child abuse to a normal male and female. Women need hormones during puberty so their hips can widen in order to produce children.

>>6060205
>fear mongering
You're the one arguing to give classes to everyone because less than 1% of the population have a disorder.

>>6060223
I'd love to see some actual numbers of increased gyno risk to justify it outweighing the risk of not treating gender dysphoria.
>Look at the baroque castrati they suffered numerous health and emotional problems
Because monitored puberty blockers to delay increased sex hormones for a few years is totally the same thing as permanent castration.
Luckily health effects from low hormones are slow to onset and the periods of time delaying puberty are basically equivalent to the difference in later onset of puberty in europe from their lower fat diet which can make them taller and healthier than america and similar countries.
>can lead to osteoporosis
After long enough the risk rate does adjust to be in-line with women who have a greater risk than men, again without numbers it's hard to justify that outweighing the risk of not treating gender dysphoria.
>Men's bodies need testosterone to function
Humans need some sex hormones or problems eventually occur but you seem to have a woefully simplistic understanding of hormones.
>Besides blocking puberty for 100% of the population just to benefit the .001% that is actually trans is the epitome of insanity.
Because that is totally what I'm arguing for. I mean if you want to just yell at a strawman you've built out of your frenzied feels then I could go make a sandwich.
>Good luck trying to convice lawmakers and doctors to force parents to do this to their children
Denying necessary recommended medical treatment already is child abuse and the way things are going with conversion therapy it's likely that it will soon be illegal for parents to force their kids not to transition.
>Guess what a parent has the right to do whatever they want to their child within the law and as long as it's not harmful
Guess what not treating gender dysphoria IS harmful and allowing treatment is not abuse, the actual doctors and research are pretty clear about that and your upset feels and appeals to ignorance and fear don't change that.

>>6060403
You fucking idiot, forcing the entire fucking population to go to a class on something that's still up to debate because less than 1% of the society have a disorder is downright insane.

>>6060257
>educating kids about medical conditions and minority groups is fear mongering
Well I guess if you wish people like trannies or gay people or people with autism would just stop existing then admitting they exist and educating people about them might fill you with fear.

How about we just execute all trans people, because as this thread demonstrates, you're a conceited selfish drain on society.

>>6060421
>whines that learning is too hard to be fair to force on kids
>calls others idiots

Also what exactly is "up to debate"? That kids should have access to recommended necessary medical treatment? That trannies exist?

>>6060427
>"""""educating"""""
Neither you or I can assure they will actually educate about anything, schools are absolutely shitty nowadays, and teachers are at the root of the problem, all they would do is making kids on a changing phase even more confuse.

>>6060438
>Also what exactly is "up to debate"? That kids should have access to recommended necessary medical treatment? That trannies exist?
A proper test on what defines a trans person, transexuals or transgenders, and of course the big push to say that's possible to be trans without dysphoria.

>>6060433
WHY WONT YOU DEGENERATES JUST DIE ALREADY AND STOP DISAGREEING WITH MUH FEELS !!!!!1!!!!!1!!!! MUH DAY OF ROPE ANY DAY NOW!!!!11!!!! EVERYONE I DON'T LIKE IS GOING TO DIE REEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!1!!!!!!!!!!!!1!

>>6060445
>schools are so shitty these days we shouldn't even bother trying to educate them about anything
Great plan just end education.

>>6058783
>>6060009
Except, you fucking stupid retards, that implementing a policy like this will obviously result in a far greater number of people transitioning, which means the current data is non-applicable.

It's like when feminists say "there are very few false rape accusations, so therefore the burden of proof should be on the accused rapist to show his innocence".

When you establish a new standard, you don't get to rely on the old numbers. We don't need a fag class, we need a fucking statistics class apparently.

>>6060466
No not end, but improve, if even on things that are based on hard research they are unable to properly instruct them about it, how do you expect to give them a class about gender?

>>6060457
As long as you're proposing sweeping, drastic policy that billions of people don't agree with.

But I know you live in an echo chamber where the interests of .1% of the population have priority over everybody else, so it probably doesn't seem that way to you.

>>6060452
>A proper test on what defines a trans person, transexuals or transgenders
"Proper" of course being defined by dr. anon instead of all the actual doctors who study and treat things and say that there is an extremely low regret rate and that current diagnostic procedures are extremely effective, much moreso than for many conditions that you don't sperg out about because it doesn't relate to people that make you uncomfortable.

>>6060479
>As long as you're proposing sweeping, drastic policy that billions of people don't agree with.

>educating kids in school and allowing kids necessary recommended medical treatment is just as drastic and bad as a day of rope to murder everyone that triggers /pol/

WOW, and you morons say trannies are the delusional ones.

>>6060494
>"educating"
>"allowing"
>"necessary recommended medical treatment"
You're really good at being a specious political commentator. You should submit you stuff to the huffington post.

>>6060476
I'd suggest rolling it into science classes.
The best sex-ed I had was just treated as another section of the class on one of the body systems with relevant data about disease and medical care, same as the section on bones or the circulatory system.

>>6060471
>which means the current data is non-applicable
So we should just go off of your fear-mongering delusions instead of what data we DO have and the best efforts and understanding of modern medicine?

And of course a rant about feminists and rape PROVES your feels as fact.

>>6060519
Oh yeah a "rant". That's what that was. Everything is a "rant" and "muh feels" and "fear-mongering" to you.

Guess what shit for brains? Your proposal isn't going to happen. You're trying to prove it's worth doing. I don't have to prove a goddamned thing to you. Fuck yourself.

>>6060502
I'm sorry that you think education and medicine are a political plot by some big bad liberal boogeyman, are the sjws and jews and muslims also involved somehow?

I guess you can ignore doctors and research if you don't like what they say as long as you mention some liberal site.

>>6060527
Considering that 90% of psychologists are left wing, it's pretty easy to write off their "research" as being politically biased, yeah.

See also sociology.

>>6060524
>Your proposal isn't going to happen
Now which proposal was that?
There are multiple anons in the thread and people keep suggesting that I support things I don't like giving all kids hrt.

It's child abuse to deny recommended necessary medical treatment, that's the law. Conversion therapy is going the way of being banned which will likely pave the way for denying transition being more aggressively pursued as child abuse.

I mean you can keep yelling that your feels outweigh all evidence and that your "happening" and "day of rope" will happen any day now and destroy the evil conspiracy that makes research disagree with you but maybe don't hold your breath.

>>6060531
How about neurologists?
Or just statistics that show the effectiveness of transition?

Can we just forget about brains and math because they have a biased liberal agenda?

I think this might enlighten you OP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JXrDwtiqQs
Let me know what you think!

>>6057297
You're just fucked up. Trannies are sick in the head and should be cured, not encouraged.

>and educating people on how nature makes mistakes sometimes
Is this sarcasm? Please be sarcasm. This is HAES-tier retarded.

>>6057297
>Am I just freaky or does this seems like an ideal future?

This sounds like something that would start a war and kill millions and millions and millions of people.

File: fae31e70a8e2713bc39b8d673ae485a3.jpg (7KB, 236x236px) Image search: [Google]

7KB, 236x236px

>>6057297
>literally force children to become gay and trans
>"does this seems like an ideal future?"

I hope someone kills you OP

>>6060577
Seen you spamming this in other threads. Always with no real connection to the theme. Shoo shoo, shill.

>>6060807
>thinking you can force someone to be a certain sexuality
if that were possible, 95% of the people here would be cishets

File: image.jpg (57KB, 551x633px) Image search: [Google]

57KB, 551x633px

More evidence of the revisionist, Freudian, gentle nihlism that's slowly strangling the West.

You tranny freaks will truly do anything to satisfy your sick desires, including drugging impressionable children instead of helping them cope.

OP, YOU are what's wrong with the West. You are WEAK, and you are DISGUSTING - seaking pleasure and happiness in lieu of perspective and stability.

Why not just sell HRT over the counter and call it a day?

File: 1368962729355.jpg (96KB, 724x720px) Image search: [Google]

96KB, 724x720px

>>6060832
>My mere existence makes conservatards THIS mad

>>6057338
This guy has the right of it. Literally anything else is "muh feels I was in the 0.1% so let's subject generations to confusion about gender identity and hormones so that I can feel better".

>>6060832
>medical treatment that triggers /pol/ is scary bad "drugging" not good smiley medicating :^)

Just "coping" simply isn't effective which is why we've settled on the current treatment of transition as the most effective available option.

You want to reject medical fact because a certain treatment triggers you because "think of the children!" and vague appeals to some grand conspiracy corrupting all that is "right".

File: 1461073818408.jpg (37KB, 400x363px) Image search: [Google]

37KB, 400x363px

>>6060505
>Guy defending the west
>white, blue eyes and strong jaw
So fucking hot

>>6060851
You're existence means nothing to me. When you start infiltrating bureaucratic offices, positions of power, and jobs that allow contact with impressionable children, then I have a problem. You have every right to destroy your own life, but you have no right to teach your nihlism in schools - to children!

>>6060862
Nice try, but I don't believe in medication for any mental illnesses. This is coming from someone diagnosed with MDD who's refusing medication and who refuses medication.

If you can't solve your own issues, even with professional help, without resorting to medicating yourself, you're weak. However, it's none of my business what you do to yourself, but don't teach this nihlism to children.

>>6060892
refusing drug treatments*

File: hqdefault.jpg (20KB, 480x360px) Image search: [Google]

20KB, 480x360px

>>6060892

>>6060860
The OP doesn't even mention anywhere the idea that everyone should get the treatment, just that it be available for those who need it along with some basic general education on trans people. Just throw the lesson in with sex-ed alongside explaining that some people are gay and some are born with genetic sexual anomalies and it would probably cause a lot less confusion than them trying to understand it from what they see in tabloid news and hollywood spectacles.

People just keep pulling the "why do you insane degenerates want to turn everyone trans?!?!" out of their ass as a strawman to soundly thrash with flawless skill and the op even seems to have replied to the post you're quoting to clarify that they think it should be entirely optional.

>>6060905
Is the truth that you have a weak character too painful to respond to without memes?

Good luck anon. I hope you find your way.

>>6060892
>When you start infiltrating bureaucratic offices, positions of power
THE LIZARD PEOPLE ARE INFILTRATTING!!1!!!!1!
WE MUST PROTECT THE CHILDREN FROM MEDICAL KNOWLEDGE IT'S ALL A CONSPIRACY TO TURN US GAY!!!!121!!!!

File: Spiderman_60s_Laugh.jpg (64KB, 544x400px) Image search: [Google]

64KB, 544x400px

>>6060919
>He thinks mental illness is an issue of character

>>6060892
>Nice try, but I don't believe in medication for any mental illnesses
What about neurological conditions like ones that cause seizures?

Depression can be treated purely with therapy although medication can help for some but that's simply not the case for gender dysphoria. Different conditions have different mechanisms and can have different treatments and you feeling that they seem similar does not change the medical reality.

>>6060820
Except you can. Everything about your personality is entirely 100% the result of your environment.

>>6060912
>he says that "PC society" will create a dystopian future where middle school kids receive classes on gender dysphoria, are told to see if they feel comfortable in the gender they were assigned at birth, and have the option to secretly get discreetly get anti-androgens for free from the government without having to be outed to school, parents or friends, just like a tampon.
>>calls it 'puberty control' jokingly
>>I actually think this is a good idea

I received sex-ed from the ages of 9-14. Children that age are impressionable, and they already have the difficulties of finding their personality and identity thrust on them.

You seriously want to tell a room full of kids who are ALREADY struggling with identity issues related to family, friends, love, acceptance, ingroup dynamics, outward appearance, class, and a budding sense of romance - who have no idea what to make of these new developments - and then you want to tell them that they could be assigned the wrong gender? (which is fucking psuedoscience)

Then, when some confused child cones forth, confused by this new development, comes forth for reassurance and help - you would give them DRUGS rather than helping him/her work through his/her identity issues?

Despicable.

>>6060937
Yes, just check this box on the form and you'd automatically get a bottle of pills, and not access to counseling or a therapist to work through your issues.

>>6060912
I always wondered why LGBT things weren't taught in sex-ed/health classes. Maybe things have changed since I was young, but I didn't know gay people existed until a friend told me she was bi when I was 15, and I didn't know trans people existed until I was 19 and sitting in a psychiatrist's office wondering why I wanted to be a girl.

Maybe it's not as necessary due to the extreme amounts of media exposure around gay/trans people nowadays, but I don't think it'd be a bad idea to add that to the normal health curriculum. There's no reason for young LGBT people to be left in the dark while straight/cis children get education about themselves.

>>6060921
I can see you no longer wish to have a cogent discussion. I wish you well in your search for self-actualization, anon. May you reach it before you destroy your body in confusion.

>>6060927
Mental illness isn't. How you deal with it is. Drugs are for the weak.

>>6060931
Siezures are caused by structural and chemical deficiencies in the brain, and they're debilitative in a very physical sense. Taking drugs to correct those issues is no problem.

Taking drugs to correct a fantasy that you're the opposite sex, no matter how deeply it affects your personhood, evinces weakness. I'm sorry. This is how I feel from years devoted to the study of philosophy and psychology.

>>6060937
And then they go on to clarify but regardless they still don't say everyone should take it in what you quoted.

>You seriously want to tell a room full of kids who are ALREADY struggling with identity issues related to family, friends, love, acceptance, ingroup dynamics, outward appearance, class, and a budding sense of romance - who have no idea what to make of these new developments - and then you want to tell them that they could be assigned the wrong gender?
I think children should be educated about things that could effect them and increasingly many of them are already becoming aware of trans people to various degrees from the media and people actually transitioning in school even if they are so young that all it means is lots of therapy and letting them dress and be refereed to how they want. Regardless of however much you want it, trying to pretend that they don't exist isn't going to stop kids from being exposed to the big bad tranny corruption but probably will lead to them being more confused from trying to invent their own explanations based on children's rumors.

I'll go by the actual doctors and research for what is and isn't pseudo-science instead of some 4chan anon that thinks their feels should replace medical knowledge and practices.

I'd give them a lot of therapy before giving them medication as is standard medical procedure but regardless calling them DRUGS doesn't change it into some addictive menace spreading like wildfire.

>>6060956
>This is how I feel from years devoted to the study of philosophy and psychology.
kek

ok ty for your opinion mr philosophiser

>>6060933
The neurological differences that have been observed in some trans people include regions that are non-plastic past the womb.
Sure they could choose or be forced to repress but the suicide statistics show that to be very damaging.

>>6060956
So neurological evidence doesn't count when it doesn't agree with your feels?

It doesn't matter what is "weakness" in your opinion, that's not how we decide medical policies and treatment, we do it based on what is most effective to help people and transition is the most statistically effective treatment.

Your philosophical opinions don't outweigh medical research and evidence.

File: 4299941-1419641297037.jpg (38KB, 600x375px) Image search: [Google]

38KB, 600x375px

>>6060956
lmao i r8 ur b8 8/8 m8

File: 1439380018780.jpg (41KB, 600x385px) Image search: [Google]

41KB, 600x385px

>>6057297
>Most people who transition early don't regret it, which dispells the whole 'but they're just kids!!!' meme.
Citation needed

File: image.jpg (1MB, 1304x2004px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1304x2004px

>>6060988
I should regroup. I sound a lot angrier than I should because I'm frustrated at the recent Western ideology that comfort and happiness is worth altering your personhood to attain. I'll tone it down a bit. I appreciate that you're taking time to discuss this without throwing vitriol my way, and I respect your opinions despite being opposed to them.

>people actually transitioning in school even if they are so young that all it means is lots of therapy and letting them dress and be refered to how they want

That's what bothers me. You say this as if it's a minor thing, but it isn't. When you sit a young boy down who's confused about his identity, and you tell him, "Yes, your feelings are valid. You were probably assigned the wrong gender at birth. Feel free to use she/her pronouns and wear dresses - in the future we may give you hormones." instead of addressing and fixing the root identity problem, you're teaching that boy that it's okay to go to extreme ends to satisfy his desires and to be "happy".

This chasing of happiness at all costs, wanting to be numb from pain, can be traced back to the pervasion of Freudian psychology and philosophy through academic programs in the 40's-90's. It has led to what /pol/ would likely call "cultural marxism". Essentially, anything that encroaches on one's sense of what makes them "happy" is an existential threat.

I want to have children. I want my children to grow up strong, and for them to have perspective by which they can analyze their context. This environment, where we tell our children they never need to be in pain, is dishonest and not conducive to that end. It produces weak individuals.

As for the scientists/researchers, it would be political, academic, and social suicide for them to break the Freudian mould in this respect. That's why I take their studies with a grain of salt.

In the end, anon. We simply have polar opposite views on a divisive topic. I wish you good luck in the future.

>>6060992
Stay ignorant, my friend.

>>6061003
See >>6061039 . Researchers won't say anything against Freudian (and now Rawlsian) ideology because it would be career suicide.

>>6061007
:^]

http://www.politico.com/blogs/2016-gop-primary-live-updates-and-results/2016/04/trump-transgender-bathrooms-222257

>Trump: Transgender people can use whatever bathroom they want

>Matt Lauer then asked whether Trump has any transgender people working for his company.
>"I really don't know. I probably do. I really don't know," Trump said

How will SJWs spin this?

>>6061073
Not even a Trump supporter/voter, but damn if I don't respect that dude. He's a master of giving non-answers that are still satisfying to supporters and independents.

>>6061039
>comfort and happiness is worth altering your personhood to attain

The root of your opposition is that you view expressing one's gender identity as fundamentally changing oneself. When in fact, universally, the statements from people who have transitioned is that they were not changing themselves, but rather finally able to express how they really felt along. That the identity that you view as the "original" was not in fact a constructed facade to fit in with society's expectations and conception of how they *should* look and behave based on their phenotype.

Telling someone not to wear glasses because their myopia is 'natural'; telling someone not to ever get cochlear implants because their deafness was congenital; telling a left-handed child to only write with the wrong hand; telling someone to ignore their sexual preference because heterosexuality is the norm; telling someone to live with gender dysphoria because transitioning requires external action; these are not the hallmarks of strength.

>>6061105
>The root of your opposition is that you view expressing one's gender identity as fundamentally changing oneself.

You're correct, and I won't argue against the premise that those who transistion might feel they were finally expressing the gender they felt they were on the inside.

However, that doesn't change my stance. Let's say I'm living a subpar life. It's boring. Now let's say that I truly feel that life is a cycle of birth and reincarnation, and I have spiritual evidence within me that compels me to believe this, and I throw myself off a building to roll the dice and start again. If I could feel anything in death, I'd likely feel satisfied that I had taken the initiative to start over. In reality, all I've done is killed myself.

Would you applaud me for seeking happiness or would you call me a lunatic? Because I've read just as many accounts of people who transition and detransition because it didn't solve the underlying issues that they felt.

And once again, because I'm tired of the false equivalences:
>myopia
Physical
>deafness
Physical or neuropathical
>left-handed
Neuropathical
>homosexual
I'm gay, so this irks me. I haven't taken any drugs, modified my brain chemistry or received surgery to have sex with men. Try again.
>transitioning
Ignoring treating identity issues in lieu of taking drugs and receiving cosmetic surgery.

>>6061202
Correction: left-handedness is psychosomatic. Typing on my phone and didn't notice the mistake.

>>6057297
Most hons end up like hons because they aren't really women at all trans or otherwise. There isn't any medication that can treat this.

>>6061202
My logical stance rests on the basis of increasing and improving well-being.

Suicide is demonstrably harmful. If the desire is based on a delusion, then I'd get a therapist or psychologist to help you figure that out.

>I've read just as many accounts of people who transition and detransition
I'd ask for the citation about the relative amounts. What is the ratio of detransitioners due to not being trans and not due to harassment and stigma? The relative risk must be determined. If 1 person out of 100 does not benefit from a medical procedure, does that mean we shouldn't offer that procedure for the other 99?

It's true that transition may not work out for everybody. In fact, many gender nonconforming children don't choose to transition and don't choose to transition. The WPATH standards of care explicitly states that therapy should be the first step. And even then, some people may not choose to transition even if they are 100% sure they are trans. However, transition is not a quick process; if they were informed of the risks, I don't see why they could not have the freedom to do so.

I believe that preventing children from learning about something that may benefit them is immoral and unethical. And medicine is always based on a relative risk/reward or cost/benefit analysis. And that keeping them from informed, educated professionals does lead to irreversible changes caused by developing secondary sexual characteristics of their natal sex. In many cases that leads to mental distress.

>>6061246
Left-handedness is psychosomatic? Are you saying it's some sort of pyschological cause and not biological? Because there's a wealth of science behind the biological cause of left-handedness.

>>6061404
Some people take harmful drugs all their life and hormones are drugs too. You can't think in black and white because people make mistakes to all sorts of degrees. These things aren't as rigid and logical as your systemizing male brain wants it to be.

>>6061404
>My logical stance rests on the basis of increasing and improving well-being.
Well-being as a sum total, or well-being as an end? I won't answer to any other part of your post until I know this.
>Suicide is demonstrably harmful. If the desire is based on a delusion, then I'd get a therapist or psychologist to help you figure that out.
Except this, actually. How would you know it's a delusion, especially if the evidence was compelling enough for our fictional person to jump?

>>6061437
Absolutely. Many people take harmful drugs for reasons that are very clear to them. Does that make it right? Are they not still weak?

What exactly are you trying to say with this?

>>6061438
Individual. From the AMA:
>The patient’s right of self-decision can be effectively exercised only if the patient possesses enough information to enable an informed choice. The patient should make his or her own determination about treatment. The physician's obligation is to present the medical facts accurately to the patient or to the individual responsible for the patient’s care and to make recommendations for management in accordance with good medical practice. The physician has an ethical obligation to help the patient make choices from among the therapeutic alternatives consistent with good medical practice.

And then use the WPATH Standards of Care to determine treatment for gender dysphoria.
http://www.wpath.org/uploaded_files/140/files/IJT%20SOC,%20V7.pdf

I am not a physician, I am not a psychologist, so I really can't discuss treatment for delusions or schizophrenia from a position of knowledge, only as a layperson.

However, the relevant governing bodies differentiate gender dysphoria from schizophrenia, so I'm going to assume there's a qualitative difference there.

>>6061511
>>6061438
In addition, untreated mental illness exacts a huge cost on our economy:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-neglect-of-mental-illness/

>Untreated mental illnesses in the U.S. cost more than $100 billion a year in lost productivity, according to the National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI). Local hospitals and clinics must cope with associated chronic physical diseases. Schools have to open more special education classes. Courts and jails handle a large number of individuals who suffer from untreated mental illnesses. Suicide ranks among the top 15 most common killers in the U.S. (in the top three among young people), and 90 percent of cases can be attributed to mental illness.

>>6057297
I fucking wish someone had presented me this option when I was 13 and first starting going to war with myself. I hid everything from everyone. I never like men, and i was FORCED to be a jewish male my entire life. It's been hell. If someone had offered me a way to change my hormones and grow properly (they've always been imbalanced anyway) I'd have taken that opportunity for sure.

Instead, I dropped out of school, scared the fuck out of leg with a razor, never held a proper job or relationship and now live at home still like an autistic fuck up.

Kids as young as 16 or 17 should have this option. I do believe 13 year olds should EXPLORE gender in school but I don't think medicating 13 year old kids with anything is a really great idea.


At minimum, gender needs to be taught as a spectrum thing like autism. I'm so sick of "Wait so you're gay?" No. I have a BODY DISORDER and a HORMONE DISORDER. I just look like a boy, my inner parts are a mix. People have been taught (myself included) to think about sexuality, gender, sex, all wrong. It's awful.

>>6061581
>No. I have a BODY DISORDER and a HORMONE DISORDER. I just look like a boy, my inner parts are a mix.
You're not serious, right? It's a mental disorder, not a "body" or "hormone" disorder.

>>6061022
On the other side of things the only evidence that there IS a problem of regret fro young transitioners is a single study that did not differentiate between diagnosed gender dysphoria and kids who were just gender non-conforming and then counted all subjects that they lost contact with as having stopped experiencing dysphoria and regretting it.

>>6057297
>go to puberty control class
>it's a gas chamber

DO IT. GAS THE DYKES.

>>6061039
The issue is that regardless of whatever you feel is strong or weak or whatever the actual available evidence and research shows that we have no available way of "addressing and fixing the root identity problem" because we lack the technology to manipulate the neurology associated with trannies.
While you may think it is "extreme ends" the actual doctors think that based on the available research it is the most effective treatment.

>This chasing of happiness at all costs, wanting to be numb from pain
Which takes a good deal of mental leaping to arrive at from the best available treatment for a specific rare condition, with that logic it would be equally applicable to compare ANY treatment that reduces pain or improves quality of life.
Appeals to /pol/ conspiracy theories doesn't really further your case that your feelings should override the current medical research and treatments.

Your obsession with what you perceive as "weak" has very little to do with medical realities.

Appeals to some big conspiracy bullying doctors to suppress "the truth" that would supposedly agree with you doesn't change the reality of statistics showing the efficacy of transition as a treatment and neurological evidence showing a physical structural basis for gender dysphoria. It doesn't help that those doctors that DO pursue an anti-transition agenda almost universally do no research of their own and instead misinterpret other researchers' data and use other shady tactics to try to deceive the public which leads to them being disgraced and discredited like with paul mchugh who then joined a small group of conservative dicredited doctors formed for the purpose of preventing gays from adopting with a group-name chosen to be easily mistaken for the actual legitimate widespread organisation of pediatric doctors.

>>6057297
if you want to fucking prevent trans suicides this is not the optimal answer. you stop them from being trans in the first place by making schools safe places for gender nonconformity. a shit ton of american schools still enforce gendered dress codes (kids cant "crossdress" cause its "too distracting") and have huge bullying problems with no proper recource. transition has always been a bandaid for a larger societal problem, and school is THE PLACE to make kids more tolerant/confident. enforcing gender roles with this trans nonsense will have the opposite effects.

>>6063170

>the gender non-conformity equals or causes gender dysphoria meme

>>6062997
Not even that guy, but dude. Put down the thesaurus and type like a human being.

Your post reads like a high school level word salad.

>>6063170
Why not do both? Let people wear whatever they want, and make sex/gender as much as a non-issue as possible.

>>6061793
It's arguably either, depending on your point of view.

>>6060912
>>6058075
>>6060505
This would have been nice when I was younger; learning about gender identities and dysphoria from sex-ed rather than my only exposure coming from the drag queens at pride parades. Would have made things way less confusing.

>>6065476

Yeah. I'm envious of all the trannies ten years "luckier" (younger) than I was who will be turning 12 next year.

>>6061077
>How will SJWs spin this?
"Trump is only supporting white trannies."

When in doubt, pull the race card.

>>6060933
>Except you can.
No. At most you can repress your shit to a point where you barely notice it's still there, but if a complete change was actually possible they would have never taken homosexuality of the DSM list, this board would not have existed and we'd be in some conversion camp being force fed drugs and subjected to various forms of not always ethical forms of therapy.