Only Two Genders Exist

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>gender roles dont exist
>peoples behaviour cant be defined by simple gender classifications
>its important that we define 6 billion genders despite us previously mentioning that they have no value due to genders and gender roles not existing

>>5781469
A straw man argument.

right im cis and I understand that gender and sex are different and I understand that people that are male can choose to identify as female and vice versa I understand that men can be effeminate and women masculine but can someone explain how there are more than two genders amongst this? What are these other genders called? Who has them?

>>5781477

Do you even know what a strawman is?

>>5781496
The "other genders" are not called anything. They don't have to be called anything either. They are in some sense "outside" the male/female dichotomy. Gender can also be completely irrelevant or nonsensical concept to some people. Nobody needs to tell me what I am. I don't even need to tell it to myself. I just don't care. It is irrelevant. That is why I find it strange that some people want to unnecessarily categorize themselves and other people. I suppose it gives people comfort to construct an overly simplistic model of reality.

>>5781533

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

>gender roles dont exist

Nobody seriously claims that gender roles don't exist. Therefore it is a straw man. It pretends to be a claim that some imaginary opponent makes, when nobody actually makes such a claim.

>>5781469
I'm perfectly okay with having male, female, and other. And it's absurd to say gender roles don't exist - we don't want them to exist, but that doesn't mean they don't.

>>5781550
Aww look he's trying to use logic
Go elsewhere, foul sjw

ftm here.

genderqueer is just plain sjw bullshit.

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Finns are pretty
I'm proud to be part Finnish

>>5781542
Its just a difficult concept to grasp and you don't help to give it any validity when you say that it doesn't matter

>>5781542
The other 'genders' don't fall
>"outside" the male/female dichotomy

Show me a single 'agendered' person who shows no traits that are either male or female. I ask this every time the topic comes up and no one ever delivers.

>>5781682
It's not a difficult concept at all. There is a line with male on one end and female on the other.

Just like sexual orientation everyone sits on that line somewhere irrespective of biological sex.

You can apply labels to this, but none of them are particularly helpful or insightful and really we're talking about something basically irrelevant outside of extreme cases which we call being trans.

It's really, very, very, simple. There's no need to complicate it because a bunch of bi-cis-women think they need to be 'more special' on the internet.

>>5781575
They're not only trying, but SUCCEEDING at using logic. Unlike you. There is nothing logical about dismissing everyone who disagrees with you as a sjw.

>>5781542
Other people like doctors who are trained to save your queer ass and don't give a shit about your made up bullshit obstructing their work

>>5781708
>Show me a single 'agendered' person who shows no traits that are either male or female. I ask this every time the topic comes up and no one ever delivers.
Show me a single 'male' person who shows no female traits.

>>5781719
How is identifying outside the gender binary obstructing doctors' work?

>>5781727
How is witholding information on your most important physical characteristic not obstructing doctor's work?

>>5781454
Oh shit! They are attached to reality! What a disgrace!

>>5781542
Yes. Reality doesn't need to make sense. We can just make shit up as we go. So according to me, I can fly by flapping my arms.

but theyre right

>>5781738
If a doctor needs to know what genitals have or whatever, they can ask. Besides, your same argument applies equally to binary trans people: is identifying as a woman while having a penis obstructing doctors' work?

>>5781496
Intersex, where it's ambiguous. Though, I don't know how often the brain sex is ambiguous.

>>5781777
The ability to fly is something that is clearly testable. There isn't really any way to test if someone really is the gender they say they are.

>>5781817
You can pull their pants down.

>>5781454
meh
i dont disagree
on one end you have the ideal male, and on the other end the ideal female. People can exist anywhere on or between those 2 points.

I just think comming up with names for your own "special gender" is just stupid and narcissistic.

i can see genderqueer/fluid for people want to change up how they present themselves from time to time.

but this all this trigender, agender...etc, is just silly nonsense.

>>5781817
The point is that both delusions are equally destructive.

>>5781812
If your file says female, you cosplay as a female and you're actually a male you are going to have hard time.
I don't give a shit about your fetish but gender, age and weight are things that a doctor must know a priori.

>>5781828
That will only tell you what genitals they have. It won't even give you the full picture of what their biological sex is (i.e. what their hormone levels and chromosomes are) and tells you literally nothing about their gender.

>>5781850
Given that gender isn't sex, there's really no need for a doctor to know it except in very unusual circumstances. And simplifying everything to male and female is very unscientific, as there are multiple characteristics that make someone male or female, and they don't always match up. There should be seperate fields in the medical record for genitalia (including intersex conditions and whether the person has had SRS or any other kind of genital surgery), sex chromosome configuration, and sex hormone levels. Using a single classification of male vs female leaves a lot of information out not only when dealing with trans people, but also those who are naturally intersex.

>>5781454
They are 100% correct

>>5781877
GENDER
AGE
WEIGHT
HISTORY OF MEDICAL DISEASES
The most important details of a patient before getting into a diagnostic, your opinion is irrelevant.
>But what if I have a really rare chromosomic aberration
You don't

>>5781454
I can't speak Finnish but from what information you've given in the op, they're not wrong and saying there's only two genders doesn't mean that you can't be transsexual/transgender. Most trans people are binary male or female transitioning to binary male or female, not some whacky 15th gender.

>>5781454
Well you could argue that socially there are two gender roles but some cultures actually have traditions of a third and intersex people show that there's plenty of wiggle-room between the sexes.

Y'all need to get fucking laid

>>5781850
>If your file says female, you cosplay as a female and you're actually a male you are going to have hard time.
LoL the actual doctors would disagree with your booty-bothered feels that someone is so bad and obstructionist for daring to step outside of your autistic little boxes.

>>5781921
I'm an actual doctor, sue me.

>>5781904

Idk how thats wrong.

There are some transtrender kids who end up accepting their birth gender when their tumblr phase is over.

>>5781894
>You don't
Some people do, though. And if someone has say XX chromosomes, a (natural) dick, and female hormone levels, what do you classify them as? That's why the only logical thing to do is have separate listings for each aspect of biological sex.

>>5781917
I fail to see how that would improve the situation.

>>5781934
Transtrender kids were never trans to start with, they were just trying to appropriate a medical condition out of context. And use the word "gender" to mean personality.

>>5781454
>Only Two Genders Exist
that's right

I mean you can be a feminine little bitch and still be biologically male or be a bulldyke and still be biologically female, but there's no reason to make shit up because you're a social deviant.

>give them feedback on the issue
this isn't an issue, people are fucking dying all over the world, Europe is being invaded by Syrians, in 20 years the world will reach its population cap and we won't be able to generate enough food for ourselves

genders: literally a non-issue, I'd probably categorize it as a hobby albeit an autistic one

>>5781927
You're not a very good one then since I've never encountered a doctor that couldn't easily take tranny shit in stride and understand what was going on.

>>5781934
That's why trans kids get a lot of therapy and maybe blockers so they can figure out if it's full transexuality or just gender variance.

>>5781708
thanks for the explination

>>5781722
thats not arguing against the point he made, he's saying that it exists on a spectrum

God damnit I thought we already established there are 2 sexs but x genders

I agree with the. 2 gender, male and female. Some males identify as female. Some females identify as male.

Everything else is snowflake tumblrtard demigenderqueersexual horseshit. Feel free to whine about it on your blog if you disagree.

>>5782110
only on tumblr and i don't think it will ever get past tumblr

>>5781563
Gender roles exist and people should conform to them, by in large. To think you're a totally atomized individual and not part of a community or society within which your cooperation is necessary is completely selfish.

>>5782251
I don't think there's really any reason to have different standards for men and women. Apart from stuff directly related to reproduction, if something is right for a man to do it's right for a woman to do, and vice versa. Allowing people be feminine men or masculine women doesn't mean they're rejecting society or refusing to cooperate.

>>5781927
>actual doctor
I hope you aren't a psych or in cardio health because you would kill a post hrt mtf giving her 'male' medicine

>>5781894
>Bloodtype???

sorry babe but if more then likely penis injuries are not gonna require immediate medical attention. Vaginas are internal so a little more risk.
but blood transfusions are pretty important

>>5781927
If you're trans and years into transition, post hrt, maybe some surgery but not srs, there's no way you hormonally or anatomically to fit into the F or M category, so you just pick the best one and explain it to him in person.

An actual doctor would understand that sometimes things don't fit in boxes and neither category is going to give him an accurate medical history besides from just talking to the patient. Good doctors care more about the health of their patients than what goes in a box.

Some albino people lied. Who cares?

>>5781454
Male and female aren't genders. If you want to argue that there are only 2 genders, you have to say that the only 2 genders are "masculine" and "feminine." But by the point that you've reached this level of thinking, you would probably realize that there's room in the gender classification system for other genders, like "flamboyant gay." Gays may be male, but they don't belong to the masculine gender and reject most of the societal expectations for people of the masculine gender. Masculine gender people aren't supposed to like fashion, talk with that distinctive lisp, or have a slim, effeminate body type.

They're not even right that there are only 2 sexes, male and female, because Kleinfelters and XY women and all sorts of idiocy with the chromosomes can fuck up the way sex is assigned.

tl;dr sex and gender is complicated. i'd say to take a gender studies class, but honestly the professors tend to be tumblrinas. mine wasn't, and i learned a shitload, but they're hit or miss.

wait a second.

given that we are not talking about the 2 sexes...

what the fuck are genders? and why should we give a shit about this word?

>>5782649
>>5782649
Masculine male
Feminine male
Masculine female
Feminine female

The gay male probably falls under feminine male.

You can use these wacky tacky things called adjectives to describe the noun instead of inventing a whole new noun.

>>5782669
>>5782669
I'd also like to add on to this, androgynous can also be used. These "non-binary" dudes can quite simply be described as an androgynous male

>>5782669
>Masculine male
>Feminine male
>Masculine female
>Feminine female

I don't understand why people just can't be masculine/feminine instead insisting that they were born the wrong way.

>>5782825
Good thing you don't matter, or that might become a real problem.

>>5782837
Is that so?

I'm sure your probably insist your ideologies matter though, right :^)
this is by far the most unattractive thing about any kind of LGBTQ spouting faggot, "we need to respect everyone for who they are until they disagree with me."

I agree. there are only two sexes: male and female and you can't change your sex so you will always be a male no matter how many hormones you take

>>5781454
''issue''

>>5782937
someones butthurt about being called out on being uneducated and/or unempathetic.

>>5782947
kys

>>5782973
Really? Because someone just told me "you don't matter." I think my response is pretty accurate. There are too many special snowflakes in this community who would rather think of themselves as a tortured soul, living in the wrong body, rather than just a really feminine/masculine person.

And my criticism in my last post is still extremely valid. I see it happen on the time with you fags. "WE NEED TOLERANCE AND UNDERS--SOMEONE JUST SAID TRANNIES ARE WEIRD!!! RUIN THEIR LIFE!!!!"

How many genders should there be? Changing gender doesn't make you another gender, you just witched over. I can buy agendered or genderneutral because I don't really care, but what else can there even be?

>>5782985
you're really booty-bothered, huh princess? i don't even know who or what you are complaining about because i can't see none of that shit here.

>>5783008
You do realize just calling someone mad doesn't make it true, right? In the same way that calling yourself a women doesn't make it so.

It's kind of amazing how quickly some people are to insults when they're presented with an idea that challenges their identity.

>>5783008
Not that guy, but you're not helping anything here. He had an opinion, he was told his opinion doesn't matter and hge responded by saying your opinion doesn't matter.
Nobody has come up with arguments other than "ur gay lol" type of shit. If you want to convince him, try explaining instead of name calling.

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There are three sexes but only two genders. The third sex (intersex) is not supposed to happen but the same could be said about twins or redheads. Despite there being a third sex there's only two genders because even though someone might be intersex, they will always appear as either male or female when not disclosing their birth defect. It's impossible to look like neither so it's impossible to present as neither. These college students who were born with cooters and claim that because their hair is short (but dyed pink) that they're breaking gender roles and presenting as some kind of non-binary gender are just kids exploring themselves and not fully understanding who they are. Most of the grow out of it because most people are not autistic. I'm not really sure what the point of my post is at this point but I just had a lot I wanted to type out because of my anger at these people, the normies who listen to them, and myself for being angry at kids being kids. Here's a pic of a monkey taking a selfie

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So much uneducated privilege in this thread.

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Trans* ppl seem to harp on "sex =/=gender" and forgotget that gender presentation =/= gender
I am mtf, gender dysphoria is definitely real, what that makes me "count as" is more of a philosophical argument isn't it? I'd say I'm pretty comfy with the gender binary, not trying to rock the boat and be something new here, just doing my thing.

People can dress up in ways that are off the beaten trail of gender presentation though. A person could wear a men's business suit and a fucking skirt for all I care, and they wouldn't cease to exist and blink away into another dimension. The way they'd be presenting would be neither strictly masculine or feminine. So I think it stands to reason that ways of dressing and presenting yourself can fall outside of the binary norms. Non-conforming gender presentation *exists*

That said, dressing in a gender non conforming way doesn't mean you're transsexual or have a biologically determined non-binary gender identity. Perhaps it's possible that people truly apathetic to gender identity exist, but I believe such people tend to default to presenting as their birth sex and not getting caught up in the trans* sillyness. That is to say, I'm more inclined to believe people who feel they're neither but just go along with social norms vs people who insist they are both simultaneously and try to buck social trends in a highly politicized way.

Personally, I've lately been trying to be careful to mostly refer to myself as "transsexual," but it's difficult as I think "trans" and "transgender" are convenient terms. Saying "sex" sounds taboo or dirty or something. I wish transsexuals and "gender non conformists" would split into two distinct groups, they treat us like shit anyways.

Neurological differences between males and females exist that go beyond socially defined norms = likely medical fact

Gender roles are social constructs gender doesn't exist; all gender related labels a person can ascribe to are functionally identical = political dogma

>>5783013
>You do realize just calling someone mad doesn't make it true, right?
kek, no but your posts make it pretty obvious. you were pretty fast to get mad too, after only two posts consisting of "your opinion doesn't matter".
but anyways that other anon has a point so i'll see if we'll get anywhere now. trans people can't just be feminine or masculine because of a medically recognized condition of birth that is called gender dysphoria. it is basically severe depression directly related to the birth gender that can cause many other mental illnesses. no other treatment so far has shown to relieve the symptoms and thus we have to be "special-snowflakes" to have a chance to live a happy and fulfilling life.

>>5783045
>biological sex
>on a scale
Alright, you people have to stop this. Hermaphrodites in humans is p rare, and it's the only time you won't fall strictly under male or female. There are no combinations, it's an either or thing. Biology isn't a social construct and has nothing to do with opinions or feelings.

>>5783064 (me)
>birth gender
it should be birth sex actually.

>>5781454
based finland

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>>5783050
I like you.

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>>5783084
ty sempai

>>5783070
but there is still lots of intersex people. sure, the vast majority will never know they are intersex but they're technically not the sex they were assigned as either.

>>5783130
Did you know that intersex isn't a gender, and that intersex people just end up as a guy or a girl, but with a weird body?

Did you know that intersex conditions are caused by anomalies in selecting boy and girl, not by being entirely separate things?

Did you know that most intersex people will resent the fact that they were born intersex, and not just born normally, which is similar to how transgender people feel?

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>>5783050
>people apathetic to gender identity
Yeah, that's called being cis. If someone has the luxury of forgetting about their gender and feeling apathetic about it, it means there's no mismatch between sex/gender and probably not even presentation/gender to get their attention, AKA as cis as you can possibly fucking get.

>>5783064
do they? I believe you're the one who came at me with the hostility. I was simply speaking my mind. Telling someone that they don't matter is nothing but an attack. It's not any argument, so before you go acting like I started this why don't you take a step back in time and scroll up a bit.

you were the one saying my opinion doesn't matter, not the other way around. I don't think I've said anything more than 'hypocrisy' and 'snowflakes' when you really look at it.

I'm aware of gender "dysphoria" and it doesn't really change my opinion. I'm sure there are cases go genuine transgenderism but I don't think it's the case for the majority of people.

Why is 'gender dyshporia' the only time mental illness that is embraced?

>>5783080
Why did you type (me) after linking that post?

>>5782669
Nice try, but no. Don't you think I would have considered that at all? Gay, or I should probably say "fag", is a gender that is VERY distinct from the feminine gender.

People of the gay gender align pretty closely with people of the masculine gender. a gay will call himself "he" rather than "she."

someone of the feminine gender, for instance a mtf trans, will refer to herself as a she.

>>5782825
because that's not how it works.

i'm a masculine male because I have a penis and think of myself as a boy, and everyone around me agrees.

a feminine male would have a penis but think of herself as a girl, and everyone around her agrees. for some reason that's utterly incomprehensible to you?

stop being stupid. believe it or not, this isn't a complicated problem. gender and sex don't always align. Deal with it.

>>5783013
You're right! everyone around you has to agree. The 2 conditions of gender identity are 1. if you identify as a gender and 2. if everyone around you agrees that you are of that gender. that is called a "social construct". I'm so proud of you for understanding.

>>5783045
I'm saving this image the next time a bunch of retards decide that they're too smart for academia.

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>>5783155
Correct, though I don't think it's all inclusive of cis people, there are probably ones that aren't apathetic. I think there are cis people who are very aware of the fact that they actively enjoy being the sex they are, and also ones that are pretty apathetic about it, and probably a lot in between. Definitely all cissexual though.

>>5783149
>Did you know that intersex isn't a gender, and that intersex people just end up as a guy or a girl, but with a weird body?
changing the topic? we weren't talking about gender.
everything you says reads to me like:
>yeah, biological sex exists on a spectrum but because we still label them as either boy or girl i pretend that it doesn't
>>5783157
>do they?...
i wasn't the first anon actually, i jumped in with the second reply but idc anyways. it's 4chan and we get tons of /pol/ trolls "just speaking their mind" daily and they don't want to have an actual discussion but just spout out their ignorant opinion.
>I'm aware of gender "dysphoria" and it doesn't really change my opinion...
looks like we got us another troll... but before i'll make a judgement: do you think the majority are the transtrenders from tumblr? also first you didn't understand something, now suddenly you have an opinion? that was quick. medical conditions that have been recognized by the medical community won't change that opinion? damn, you must be knowledgable in this subject...
>Why is 'gender dyshporia' the only time mental illness that is embraced?
you mean the only time a mental illness is treated or what? i already told you why transitioning is the treatment.
> no other treatment so far has shown to relieve the symptoms and thus we have to be "special-snowflakes" to have a chance to live a happy and fulfilling life.
please don't make me repeat myself.
>>5783169
because i wanted to make clear i corrected myself. i failed obviously.

>>5783184
Uhm, no a feminine male would think of himself as a male who is feminine and people would think "he's male but very feminine" because he was born a male but has feminine traits. That's a very tangible definition of a person. There is nothing tangible about a man, who still looks very much like a man, deciding that he wants to be known as a women and insists that everyone refer to he as she because they've put on a wig and a dress.

My definition of the term 'feminine male' makes much more sense and doesn't involve any kind of delusional or willful suspense of disbelief.

>deal with it

What, you delusions? See, this is exactly why the trans movement is going to have a backfiring like the feminist movement. People are going to get fed up with hearing this shit from you insistent delusional fucks.

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>>5783184
>I'm saving this image the next time a bunch of retards decide that they're too smart for academia.
Is there medical evidence for people with brains that show the existence of brains that are gender neutral (neither) or multi-gendered, possessing a combination of distinctly male and female traits? I seriously doubt such evidence exists, as the current state of neuroscience would have a hard time showing this. I tend to believe in brain-sex but cautiously so, there's evidence for it, but neuroscience has a long way to go.

I just don't think there's significant evidence for "genderqueer" and friends being distinct neurological brain sexes in the same was as male and female are. Willing to be proven wrong, but most people who make this claim are extrapolating that because science seems to show a biological basis for transsexualism that there must be a similar basis for non-conforming presentation.

>>5783233
>There is nothing tangible about a man, who still looks very much like a man, deciding that he wants to be known as a women and insists that everyone refer to he as she because they've put on a wig and a dress.
oh, look a strawman. hon's exist because treatment isn't started early enough. hair can grow even on male bodies, surprise. the cause of all sexual dimorphism are basically the sex hormones. change them early enough and there won't be a difference between male and female. during pregnancy there is literally no difference (see androgen insensitivity), during puberty reprouctive organs will be different. literally nothing else.

>>5783214
>we get tons of /pol/ trolls "just speaking their mind" daily and they don't want to have an actual discussion but just spout out their ignorant opinion.

you should take a look at the first few responses to my posts then. they were nothing but insults without actually presenting any ideas. more hypocrisy but no one is surprised.

>do you think the majority are the transtrenders from tumblr?

I've never taken a serious look around tumblr but it certainly sounds like a breeding ground. At any rate, I think there is definitely a 'gender queerism' trend going on: queue the 20 minute long compilations of confused stupid teenagers making fools of themselves.

>also first you didn't understand something, now suddenly you have an opinion?

what is: context? I said I didn't understand why people had such an issue with just being defined as feminine/masculine. See, this is the problem arguing with stupid people like yourself. You throw strawman after strawman at me and then expect me to put in any effort into a rebuttal?

>medical conditions that have been recognized by the medical community won't change that opinion?

this board only embraces the part of the medical community that agrees with them. there have been some very well respected institutions changing their opinion on how they go about treating 'gender dysphoria'.

>you mean the only time a mental illness is treated or what? i already told you why transitioning is the treatment.

Letting someone suffering from gender dysphoria cut off their penis/tits is like letting a depressed person shoot themselves in the head.

>>5783277
>this board only embraces the part of the medical community that agrees with them.
oh the irony...
>there have been some very well respected institutions changing their opinion on how they go about treating 'gender dysphoria'.
okay, this is the only thing that may even come close to an actual argument so i'll bite: source?
>Letting someone suffering from gender dysphoria cut off their penis/tits is like letting a depressed person shoot themselves in the head.
oh, come on? this is the best analogy you have? you're really putting in no effort :^(
>>5783020
do you see now why /pol/ trolls are met with hostility?

>>5783277
Shooting yourself in the head doesn't let you cope and have a peaceful/happy/more productive life. If transition helps me keep it together, live a more tolerable life, and properly be able to focus on things in life beyond gender dysphoria, then how is that the same thing as dying early?

>>5783262
How is that a strawman? Your definition of 'feminine male' was basically a trans women and there are plenty of them who look JUST like men.

Also, male and female have many more differences beyond just your genitals. Beyond that I really don't see your point. You're saying if we give hormones to kids early enough there wouldn't be a huge difference but WHY WOULD WE DO THAT?

>>5783310
>flinging shit back will certainly stop the shitflinging
You're not going to draw /pol/ out by turning into /pol/. You probably can't draw them out anyway, considering stirring shit up on the gay board is like shooting fish in a barrel.

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>>5781647
>proud to be diluting the pure finnish bloodlines

>>5783325
>Your definition of 'feminine male' was basically a trans women and there are plenty of them who look JUST like men.
wasn't me. there is a big difference between feminine males and trans women in my opinion.
>WHY WOULD WE DO THAT?
to prevent your strawman? besides that to grant the kid the treatment it needs. to prevent severe depression, suicide attempts, social anxiety, body dysmorphia and other mental illnesses. basically to not fuck the kid up.
oh and this is very likely your next argument:
>but what if it grows out of it/kids are retarded and don't know what they want
experience and studies have shown that after puberty has started, the kid has been in therapy and on puberty blockers for a year there it's very unlikely to grow out of it.
i haven't put words in your mouth btw, if you thought of another argument feel free to say it.
>>5783345
it may actually help. sure there's always someone new coming but if they are met with hostility and disregard i think they are less likely to come back. the important part is disregarding them though which i'm failing at right now. damn me.

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>>5783345
>considering stirring shit up on the gay board is like shooting fish in a barrel.
minus the part where the fish get up and go back to whatever they were doing and nobody changes or remembers anything that was said anyways because the whole thing is pretty easy to dismiss from both sides when you guys are shit flinging.

>>5783310
Half my post is ignored. I love it.

>oh the irony...

Where? I never said I subscribed to anything, I just stated I've seen instances where people, on this board, shit on a well respected institute like John Hopkins because someone came to the conclusion that it's mental illness.

>okay, this is the only thing that may even come close to an actual argument so i'll bite: source?

See above. It's not like you're making any kind of viable argument yourself. This post I'm responding to proves that you're just brushing off my; valid points and trying to be condescending with shit like "is that the best analogy you have?," which any reasonable person could see is a complete cop-out.

>oh, come on? this is the best analogy you have? you're really putting in no effort :^(

See above. Cop-out. It's actually a great analogy but I can understand how it would be psychologically taxing for someone like you.

>>5783323
That's exactly what someone who's trying to kill themselves is looking to achieve: peace... relief.... Gender dysphoria is a mental illness like depression, yes? both are suffering from bad thoughts because of their mental illness, yes? the depressed person thinks "I'd be happier if I were dead." The gender dysphoric person thinks "I'd be happier if I had a vagina."

We think both of these are mental illnesses so, again, why is one encouraged while the other has pills thrown at them?

>>5781454
>If you want to give them feedback on the issue, please send them E-mail in one of the addresses found here:
that seems like a really weird thing to do, why would I ever email a finnish youth group about something? even if I disagreed with them?

>Boyscout Troop 329 believes fossil fuel emission regulations need to be strengthened
>If you want to give them feedback on the issue, please send them E-mail in one of the addresses found here

this whole concept is ridiculous

>>5783371
Wait, so you weren't the original anon and yet you're still trying to accuse of me a strawman? Jesus christ. You people on this board send me over the fucking moon EVERY TIME I'm on here.

>to prevent severe depression, suicide attempts, social anxiety, body dysmorphia and other mental illnesses. basically to not fuck the kid up.
oh and this is very likely your next argument:

So basically, injecting hormones into a child: not fucking them up, while seeing if it's just a phase: fucking them up? So it's a preventative measure and that's how giving a little kid hormones is justified in your head?

>the kid has been in therapy and on puberty blockers for a year there it's very unlikely to grow out of it.

Am I the only one who sees a problem with this sentence? I think chemistry altering drugs and therapy could make someone think A LOT of different things. I just don't see how that is a good thing.

>>5783392
>It's not like you're making any kind of viable argument yourself
i have already. which you have responded to
>I'm aware of gender "dysphoria" and it doesn't really change my opinion.
you're giving me nothing here to respond to, sweetheart. do you know how arguing works? just saying "my opinion is different" is not how it works. and saying some "well respected institutes" agree with you isn't an argument either. give me some source from the john hopkins, every one can just throw in a name. and saying killing yourself is the same as improving your life is a very weak analogy. it may seem to you like the same thing but that would be very sad to be honest.
anyways i'll stop biting now.

They are objectively correct you mentally ill faggots

>>5783447
>Wait, so you weren't the original anon and yet you're still trying to accuse of me a strawman?
kek, how are those two things mutually exclusive?
> I think
see? there's your problem. your thoughts are based on your feels and you being uneducated while the medical community actually thinks about what's best for the child based on experience and science. also i answered this question already in the post you replied to. ill drop out of this argument until you have worked on your reading comprehension.

>>5783449
I've given you plenty to respond to, you've just chosen to ignore most of it because we both know you're not capable of providing any sort of reasonable argument, which is why you defaulted to condescension or simply just ignoring large parts of my posts.

You're literally acting as if saying "gender dypshoria" was a sufficient argument for the half dozen posts I've made and it's a bit ponderous.

>>5783463
Did you ever post in coontown by any chance?

I saw this exact video there, and its want convinced me that I definitely wanted to get genital surgery.

>>5783475
Ohh, you're just stupid? Seriously, go look up what a straw man ACTUALLY is you fucking mongoloid. You have the gull to 'kek' when you clearly have a limited understand of the term.

>see? there's your problem. your thoughts are based on your feels and you being uneducated while the medical community actually thinks about what's best for the child based on experience and science.

Oh sorry sir I didn't realize this was a formal debate. Where are you facts then? Give me some proof of what you're saying because so far all you've said is that a medicated kid in therapy who's having their delusions coddled will proceed with those delusions.

What a great argument you're making.

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>>5783392
>That's exactly what someone who's trying to kill themselves is looking to achieve: peace... relief....
A person who kills themselves can't say "yep this helped" and there is no real relief in suicide. Many who transition feel it helps them achieve peace and relief, and are alive to say so, and go about their lives. It's a bad analogy.

You're focusing on the point that there are instances where people want something and it turns out to be bad for them, but your logic is broken and implies that wanting something makes it bad if mental health issues are adjacent to that want in any way.

Is a person who is badly depressed due to underemployment who then seeks and gets a better job, maybe not one that's ALL they hoped for, but enough to feel better about themselves doing the same thing as committing suicide by bowing to their depression and trying to tackle its roots instead of solely focusing on being happy with where they are at now? Is an obese person who loses weight to alleviate self consciousness basically committing suicide? If you operate in the logical framework you are trying to apply here, you'd come to the conclusion that those things are the same as suicide.

You're illogical. To assume that any action motivated by something resembling depression is immediately equivalent to suicide is a wild misunderstanding of how people work.

>>5783509


isnt that from the very very ugly jewish hons who posts videos on youtube that nobody watches?

>>5783233
I don't know what to tell you. I explained what "feminine" and "masculine" mean in the context of this discussion (they are gender categories with specific sets of rules and expectations). "Feminine" does not mean what you think it means. Period. You are wrong. You have yet to say anything reasonably intelligent or thoughtful and you remind me unpleasantly of some family members of mine who still think that "transgender" is some kind of snack cake.

>>5783516
just quick googling, i'm sure if you're interested you'd find more

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2015-01-transgender-kids-gender-identity.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/myths-about-transition-regrets_b_6160626.html

>>5783481
http://www.wpath.org/site_page.cfm?pk_association_webpage_menu=1635&pk_association_webpage=4905
oh, look. it's talking about the John Hopkins study.

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>>5783509

The outcome is nothing against the surgery itself!

>>5782937
You sound like dog shit tbqh senpai.

It is really funny that someone is so controlled by the image that other people have of him. Ask yourself in a world where you only live alone without contact to others but as smart being would you think you feel the need to change something to something you wouldnt know it exists? No you wouldnt even question the way your body was designed hence it is other people that make you feel the need to "change".

>>5783070
Biological sex isn't JUST genitals, it also includes things like hormone levels and chromosomes, as well as the things those affect. It's basically a bimodal distribution; most are clearly male or female, but a male with low testosterone and high estrogen would be somewhat more towards the middle than a typical male, while still being on the male side.

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>>5783572

And the result is really ugly. Mutilated at best. Not men nor women. It is a shame that artists like surgeons treat a mental illness with surgery and breal theire oath of Hippokrates.

>>5783149
>Did you know that intersex conditions are caused by anomalies in selecting boy and girl, not by being entirely separate things?
So then it is possible, although uncommon, for there to be a weird combination of boy and girl.

>>5783155
I call that group cis-indifferent. They're a different category than the gender euphoric cis people who know they definitely won't want to be the other gender.

>>5783617
>but a male with low testosterone and high estrogen is a dysfunctional product of modern society.
fify
Do you have heard of epigenetics?
You can influence your hormon levels with lifestyle and thousand other factors. E.g a male with a high amount of belly fat and unactice lifestyle produces massive amounts of estrogen even an unsocial life with barely no contact to other males has negative impact of testosterone. The male body is naturally designed for competition and to compete and if you are very active, workout with no bodyfat and more other males around you then females then your body produce testosterone like batshit.

It is very easy and comfortable to say i am the way i am but in realty you are just the product of a lifestyle that wasnt thought of nature for your body. You are the product of progressice degenerecy.

>>5783619

holy shit uncanny valley penis

>>5783252
There are some non-dysphoric trans people who transitioned, and don't experience dysphoria after transitioning either, which would imply their brain sex is neither male nor female.

>>5783392
>
Where? I never said I subscribed to anything, I just stated I've seen instances where people, on this board, shit on a well respected institute like John Hopkins because someone came to the conclusion that it's mental illness.
The doctor at Johns Hopkins, Paul McHugh, claimed it was a mental illness based on a misinterpretation of a study: the study pointed out that post-op trans people have a higher suicide rate than the GENERAL POPULATION, but McHugh interpreted that as saying they have a higher suicide rate than PRE-OP TRANS PEOPLE, and from that concluded that sex changes worsen your mental health. He also used "sex change is biologically impossible" as if it was a meaningful argument, when it's really not scientific at all. It's just a "common sense" argument (as in, it sounds good but it doesn't actually have anything logical to back it up).

>That's exactly what someone who's trying to kill themselves is looking to achieve: peace... relief.... Gender dysphoria is a mental illness like depression, yes? both are suffering from bad thoughts because of their mental illness, yes? the depressed person thinks "I'd be happier if I were dead." The gender dysphoric person thinks "I'd be happier if I had a vagina."
Generally speaking, a treatment that results in the patient's death is deemed unsuccessful. Depressed people commit suicide for the same reason trans people do - they want relief from their psychological discomfort. Death is not the first option for either of them, it's a last resort when their life becomes too painful to go on. It's not "I want to be dead", it's "I want relief from my suffering, and if I can't get it any other way suicide is the only option I have left"

>>5781877
Nothing about their gender? If he has a penis - hes meant to be male, hes a "he". How it can be any different than this? He might be mentally sick and say that hes a tree a ghost or a woman but he will still be male.

>>5783392
>We think both of these are mental illnesses so, again, why is one encouraged while the other has pills thrown at them?
A medical treatment that results in someone growing tits and getting a neovagina still qualifies as successful, one that results in the patient's death is not. I don't see why you're equating gender transition with suicide. And gender dysphoria IS primarily treated with drugs, however the drugs used have the consequence of turning one into a girl. No other medical treatment has been found to work consistently on trans people.

>>5783452
I'll be more inclined to believe you after you've found a means of objectively determining any person's gender
>inb4 you demonstrate that you don't understand the gender/sex distinction

>>5783463
"Gender is a social construct" refers to gender roles, i.e. the social norms of how each gender is supposed to act. However, even if there was no innate "brain sex" like current theories indicate, and gender WAS entirely a social construct, there would still be those who desire to transition due to feeling incompatible with the roles assigned to their gender. However, if that was the case, it would be possible to treat them with talk therapy and help them understand that being feminine isn't the same as being a woman.

>>5783619
So you think that since something is a "mental illness" that it should only be treated through psychotherapy or something. That's faulty reasoning. That's like saying "My computer won't start, better send it away for repairs" when the actual reason is that some power lines came down 2 miles away.

>>5783655
You do know some hormone imbalances are genetic? And in any case, it seems kind of like circular reasoning to say we should force ourselves active to be increase our testosterone levels, when the main reason high testosterone levels are needed is because it makes us better at physical activity. If our society doesn't need us to be active, why do we need lots of testosterone in the first place?

>>5783689
You're describing anatomical sex, not gender. Statistically speaking, most people have a gender that matches their anatomical sex, however you can't determine any individual's gender from their anatomical sex.

>>5783757
>If our society doesn't need us to be active, why do we need lots of testosterone in the first place?

The society would provit most from active, healthy people in particular.

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>>5783680
>There are some non-dysphoric trans people who transitioned, and don't experience dysphoria after transitioning either, which would imply their brain sex is neither male nor female.
Maybe, but that's extrapolating something without direct evidence. If it were actually studied in terms of brain physiology it COULD come up that they are really neurologically their birth sex, and what would that mean? Perhaps it could be shown that even in such cases their pre-transition brain physiology matched what they were transitioning to, and that would mean further investigating just how these people determine a need to transition without typical symptoms. Perhaps they come up distinguishably intermediate as you assume, but you cannot make the argument that biology is on your side (it's not against you either) without peer reviewed biological studies that confirm what you're arguing here.

I don't think there is a sound medical reason to medically transition if it is not done to treat a medical condition. I think people should have freedom to do what they will with their bodies, but I think it would be hard to make the "medically necessary" argument for transitioning without dysphoria. I think the distinction is probably the most important to care providers. Should a doctor be writing a prescription and should an insurance company be paying for HRT on someone who wishes to transition but has no medical need to do so? I think not, but I'm open to counter points, it's not really something that affects me too much either way I guess.

>>5783845
But society clearly doesn't need active people, or not as much as it once did, if people becoming inactive is a recent thing. If there was a need to be active people would be.

Ebin

T. Ylis

>>5784107
>se tunne kun no bf

>>5783368
I'm a gross deviant who won't be doing any racemixing that results in babies

I'd poika those poikas on the left and right