The state of modern handguns

Sig 320. Factory recalls a deal breaker.

Other than those who are all for the p320, everybody has dissmissed it as a failure from a safety standpoint. If you can't eve make you pistol drop safe, you may as well not make one. Pistols from wwii had that shit, ffs.

>>35177043
>>35177438
Idk man, it's still going to be the next US service pistol regardless.

I think the biggest loser is the APX

>>35177043
I hope it won't be long before stores start stocking upgraded models, I haven't looked into it though but I'd imagine all new P320s would be coming out with the problem addressed.

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>>35176974
Here's some trigger weight measurements we took at my shot recently in case anyone might be interested.

>>35176974
The P10C has already gained a type of cult following.

A lot of people like the VP9. I have no idea if this is true and maybe I'm spreading disinfo like a faggot but I heard some early ones were undersprung though.

P320 turned itself into a meme.

APX is an absolute "why bother" of a gun. Looks like a toblerone bar, if-you-want-a-beretta-just-get-a-92fs-or-px4 tier gun.

M&P 2.0 is gaining traction. S&W just took a shot across the bow at Glock with the M2.0 compact too.

Gen 5 Glock is going to do ok no matter what because it's a Glock.

PPS is getting good reviews.

509 is another why bother imo. If they reversed the lengths of it (short grip and longer barrel, basically make it G19 sized) it would probably have legs but right now I just don't see anyone wanting one.

So if we discount the P320 off the bat I'd say either the APX or the 509. Between the two the 509 is probably worse because it's not ideal for CC and if you're going to buy a range gun you might as well get a full size for dat sight radius.

>>35177539
>M&P 2.0 is gaining traction. S&W just took a shot across the bow at Glock with the M2.0 compact too.

fuck off Jerry.

>>35177548
Eat shit. People seem to love the 2.0 full-size.

I'm debating getting either a M&P compact when they come out, or a gen 5 Glock right now.

>>35177539
Have a VP9 and it's a great little handgun, good ergos and very accurate. Downside is it is (was?) undersprung. First two hundred rounds or so it had probably 30 failures to get in battery. Cleared up since so I don't know maybe it broke in over time.

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>>35176974

>Very successful tier (someday, 4 out of 5 guns will be Gen5 Glocks)
Glock Gen5

>Moderately successful tier (generally good sellers, but only when deeply discounted, and even then, gun stores still have room to make a big profit; $100 rebates will soon become an annual thing)
HK VP9
Sig P320

>Mildly successful tier (supported by cult followings; enjoy spikes of popularity as a new group of people finds out about them; difficult to move off the shelves at a gun store, even if the price is right; informed consumers don't bother with these)
S&W M&P 2.0
Walther PPS

>Flop tier (few gun stores will even stock these; the only people who will buy them are firstguns who go into the store without a clue and then let the gun store employee talk them into the model they should get; informed consumers are only buying these for collect what will one day be featured on Forgotten Weapons)
CZ P10C
Beretta APX
FN 509

>>35176974
Paracord bracelets are so fucking tryhard

>>35177583
I've heard that HK replaced the spring in the 9mm one meant for a .40 and that fixed it. If you have trouble again try one of those, although any new 9mm one would probably be stronger at this point anyway.

>>35177591
The price of the M&P will drop like a rock after 6 months, which should help it. And I doubt a P10c will be a Forgotten Weapon since they've been selling well from what I've read.

Also,
>tfw no qt pale gf

>>35177507
They are all coming out (albeit slowly) with the new trigger/disconnector setup

source: I work there

>>35177630
I'll see what they say. Good looks /k/ommandbro

>>35177630
>The price of the M&P will drop like a rock after 6 months, which should help it. And I doubt a P10c will be a Forgotten Weapon since they've been selling well from what I've read.
I'm sure a lot of people on a budget or people who really don't know any better or have any taste in guns will buy them, the same way people buy these and XD's now, but I mean, how many people who are serious about shooting do you know whose main sidearm is an M&P?

>>35177537
Wow, 7.5lbs on the 509 is kinda trash

>>35177568
I'll be honest here, I just sold my Ruger SR9 I had as a teenager and am in the market for a new 9mm, I went to the store yesterday and felt around.

The 19Gen5 felt really bad, the front of grip cutout for mag stripping was really noticeable.

>>35177583
That's kinda pathetic

>>35177591
Ehhhh I think the P10C is doing better than you'd think

>>35177692
Definitely more people than XDs, but the reason the M&P wasn't very popular was the trigger, which seems to have been addressed

>>35177692
Considering how many aftermarket triggers Apex sells for M&Ps, quite a bit.

>>35176974
The sig p320 is probably going to sell a lot because "its what the army uses bro" and then because some enterprising individuals are going to start 3d printing or casting frames for it that have interesting features or look cooler, including knock offs of other polymer pistol fames.

Glocks will also sell well because "its what the cops use bro" and there's already a large glock aftermarket.

>>35177734
>Ehhhh I think the P10C is doing better than you'd think
People said the same thing about the Lionheart LH9. Remember when it was added to the "/k/'s approved handguns" chart? People still say the same thing about the CZ P-07, even though those are still virtually unknown.

>>35177734
>but the reason the M&P wasn't very popular was the trigger, which seems to have been addressed
Really? You think that was the only reason?

>>35177739
>Considering how many aftermarket triggers Apex sells for M&Ps, quite a bit.
98 out of 100 gun owners will never disassemble their gun beyond MAYBE removing the slide, barrel and recoil spring for a standard field strip. Most gun owners will never even field strip their gun. 1 out of 100 gun owners will take their gun to a gunsmith or other specialist to do some kind of work to it. MAYBE 1 out of 100 gun owners, but probably more like 1 out of 10,000, has the know-how to disassemble a handgun beyond that point, much less to replace parts.

>>35177803
What other reasons? I'm curious because I'm considering an M&P 2.0

>>35177642
Oh nice, thanks sig anon! Sounds like time to hold off on buying for a few months

Does anybody know of plans to make a full sized P-10? I recently bought more mags for my P-09 and they have the cuts for a P-10 mag release so it got me thinking there might be a full size coming soon.

>>35177816
Because it's a Made-in-America Glock, but without the sex appeal of actually being a Glock. Nutnfancy would say that a Glock has "second kind of cool." The M&P just doesn't capture that for me. If you want a Glock, get a Glock.

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On a semi related note, if you guys had an 850 dollar budget for a new handgun, what would you go with?

Preferably compact sized

>>35177692
They are fairly popular in Canada likely becasue they are several hundred dollars cheaper than a Glock. Ive got a couple buddies that have them, theyve got no complaints about them and I find them much more comfortable to shoot than a Glock.

I shot my best ever grouping with an M&P9L Pro with a vortex micro red dot on it, 10 shots at 15 meters with 7 of those rounds in one hole and the other 3 only a half inch out.

>>35177898
Glock 19 gen 5, some nice sights for it, and spend the rest on a couple spare mags and ammo.

>>35177898
I used to own Glocks, Sigs, Smith and Wessons, HKs, Walthers, lots of fucking guns. The most I had at any given time was about 30 handguns, but I bought and sold lots more than that. Not too long ago, I was going through some tight times with money, though, and I sold almost all of them except for my HK USP40 Compact LEM, Sig P938, and a couple 22's that I've had since I was a kid (and I'd rather damage my credit score than sell those). I was pawning the P938 when I finally got a job and could stop selling guns.

So, moral of the story is that the HK USP40c is my #1 favorite handgun, but I think anything in that general "Glock 19/23" size range that fits your hand and you like to shoot would fit the bill.

>>35177948
>>35177976
I'm basically torn between the USP9C and the Glock 19 Gen4

It's about 850 for a USP, I'd need to spend another 100 or so on good night sights, the Mags are 40$ a peice but it's both a gun I like the feel of and would feel proud of.

Idk mang

>>35177910
In America, the M&P 9mm goes for like $425, but you can get Glocks in the $500 range pretty regularly. A hundred dollars difference should not be the deciding factor in a gun purchase, since you can go through $100 of ammo in a single range outing.

>>35177898
P30 or P30sk

>>35177898
Spend ~50-100 renting / shooting different guns at the range and go from there

>>35178014
in Canada an M&P 9 will go for about 5-6 hundred while a Glock 17 is usually over 800

>>35178000
I have a Glock 23 Gen 4 now and I like it a lot too. Compared to the USP40c, I'd say that it handles recoil just as well, if not slightly better, which seems blasphemous to put to words. The trigger doesn't feel as good on my finger on the Glock, but the qualities of the break that matter for accurate shooting aren't really any better or worse on either gun, I shoot just as well with either one. The dimensions are basically all the same except weight - the USP40c is around 4 ounces more than the Glock 23.

The Glock is going to be way more affordable in the long term. Magazines are like $17-20 plus cheaper Magpuls vs. $35-40 per mag with the HK, plus availability of inexpensive high capacity magazines. Night sights are a lot easier to do yourself with a Glock front sight tool and one of those $40 generic sight pushers you can get on ebay or Amazon, although most gun shops would install the sights for you anyway if you buy them there.

>>35178068
Jesus.

>>35177864
Have you ever held one? The M&P 2.0 is probably the most ergonomic and naturally pointing handgun out there right now. The stippling is almost perfect

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>>35176974
these are just the base model for the market medium. everyone makes one because theyre cheap, simple, and what most LEO agencies, militarizes and a large share of civilian gun owners like, so everyone makes one hoping to get in on the cash. Sort of like the model 10 smith and wesson

there are other kinds of pistols out there than plastic glock and glock clones, but you have to be a gun enthusiast to find them

>>35178100
Don't get me wrong, I'm a gun enthusiast and I own a revolver as well.

But these particular guns are basically the cutting edge of handguns right now, you can't really deny that.

>>35177692
When I worked at a gunstore, we couldn't keep the full sized 9mm M&P in stock, nor the Sheild. Nobody wanted any Glock but the 19, the rest sat there forever

>>35177591
who is that?

>>35178077
Pistols are expensive as fuck up here, my P-09 FDE was a little over 900 after taxes and shipping.

>>35178110
>you can't really deny that.
yeah we can, what are you an retard?

>>35177642
>we're fixing the trigger
>even though the gun will still go off with a sharp enough blow to the slide, so the issues is clearly not the trigger

>>35177692
The M&P holds the second largest share of the LE market after Glock, and its share of that market is actually growing. Given that S&W has been much better than Glock about being responsive to market feedback and that the biggest problems of the 1.0 have been fixed in the 2.0, I expect it to become quite popular over the long haul.

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>>35178110
theyre ok, I wouldnt call them "cutting edge" though. Glock hasnt done anything inovstive since its conception, it was just really good at being the jack of all trades and the only one at that. After a few decades others starting wanting in on the fortune, smith and wesson makes the M&P after failing with the sw99. HK, CZ, Sig Sauer, walther, beretta all start getting in on it too. The Army service pistol contract coming up probably helped but its still a big market. Its really just common business sense

I think the last truly innovative gun in recent memory is the Five se7en. Maybe the sig p320, but the interchangeable frames isnt as worthwhile IMO

>>35178282
P250 did it way before the P320

>>35177467
The m17 has a different trigger than the p320. It doesn't suffer from the same issues. Sig is putting m17 triggers in all p320 pistols moving forward and in all the recall guns.

>>35176974

I can almost guarantee the Glock and Sig are going to do well because
>glock
and
>muh service pistol

Personally, I prefer and own a VP9. I've had it for quite a while and have had zero hiccups of any sort with it unlike >>35177583 so it must have been sorted out by the time I bought mine back in November. If I were to buy another handgun instead of a VP9 though it'd be a Walther PPQ. I've noticed CZ and M&Ps seem to be gaining a lot of popularity, so good on them.

>>35178243
>second largest share of the LE market after Glock
All that means is that it's not most people's favorite.

>>35178282
Is ammo for the 5-7 uncommon or expensive?

>>35176974
The only modern features that have been brought to handguns that I'm hopeful about are Sig's modular frame design from the P250/P320 that allows you to accidentally fuck up the frame while working on it and just end up being out a $40 part rather than the entire gun (too bad I'm not going to buy one because all the shit Sig has done recently), and the various companies that are selling pistols with the slides milled for red dot sights as a factory option. Other than that I fail to see a reason to be a beta tester for a new pistol instead of going with a proven design. On a side note, it's too bad that Sig didn't take their modular design a step further with the P320 and use a 2 piece slide, so that caliber changes only required a breach block swap rather than the whole slide (although I'm sure they would have fucked that up in a dangerous way, so I guess it's for the best that they didn't try it and ruin the reputation of such a design).

>>35178282
taurus public defender is more innovative than this. The 00 handgun loads specifically made for it are much more desirable in CQB considering the fucking shit tier handguns most dudes are carrying anyway.

If ANYONE other than Taurus would have made the public defender first every fucking normie would know exactly what it is.

>45acp, 45 colt, and .410 shells
>revolver/shotgun
>Short as fuck barrel
Blows everything else out of the water when considering innovations.

>>35177591
What is the context?

>>35178447
45LC guns that can fire .410 shells are nothing new. Hardly innovative

>>35178447
smith and wesson remade the judge and it still sells like shit

>>35177758
You can literally take the P320 frame and turn put anything on the top or bottom of it, so long as it isn't a stocked rifle.

I want somebody to make carbine length P320 uppers (with totally-not-a-stock arm braces). That would be awesome.

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>>35178521
You can also drop it and have it shoot you in the chest.

Why Sig? Why?

>>35178550
Hey man, I'm still waiting on my email from Sig, I guess it's going to take quite a while.

I still love the gun in terms of performance. Its so comfortable in the hand and in its shooting.

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>>35178575
>I'm still waiting on my email from Sig
For what? Are they going to apologize for permanently tainting their pistol that continues where the P250 left off with actually doing something new? Is Sig going to contact me and apologize for them responding to my 7 years of being hyped for the future of pistols with modular frames by raping my hopes and dreams in front of me?

>>35177858
Yes, they're coming it with a full size and a subcompact. That's why it's the P-10C, not just P-10. Apparently you can see that there are different models planned for release in the owners manual of the P-10C. There's a YouTube video of it, and CZ's YouTube account confirmed it essentially.

>>35176974
Glock and berettas are all the hand guns I like.
A few revolvers but mostly Glocks and Berettas.
Whats fucking wrong with me?

What was wrong with the Beretta 92 again? I know all the ones in service are beat to fuck just like a lot of M249s are but couldn't they just buy some new ones along with some G19s or G26s for the officers who are obligated to carry a sidearm but don't like the fuck hueg and heavy Beretta? Is this just the US mil pissing away money like they usually do?

>>35177539
I don't understand why anyone likes the M&P series, admittedly I've never fired one but I've finger fucked several on multiple occasions
>fucking horrible trigger, long, heavy and gritty
>grip feels weirdly shaped and the texturing just feels like shit, it like Bubba's stipple job
>Slide release is way too low profile to use easily, need to slingshot the slide to release it
Maybe I just need to shoot one but they feel like shit on every level to me

>>35178498
Because the judge is a much larger gun. It's called the govorner. It's big.

The public defender is much smaller and over all a more innovative design.

>Twenty .380 size balls going 1100 FPS and grouping around the size of a softball at 25 feet.

>>35179432
lol, people that bought into the judge meme all think it will obliterate things like a real shotgun. All in the palm of your hand too!

Go watch videos of how practical it actually is in a self defense scenario. It's garbage. Also, twenty .380 size balls? Wtf are you talking about.

>>35179552
>Wtf are you talking about.
Normal 000 buckshot loads.

>>35179568

Bruh, I've never even seen .410 gauge shells but you've got to be really confused right now because that doesn't even make sense

>>35176974

>p10
>vp9
>509
>m&p
>glock
>apx

Don't really do anything mind blowing. M&p is on the up in the states because they can sell it to PD's for cheaper prices than Glock.

>pps
Basically a better Glock 43 that never got the credit it deserved. Fucked itself though, because they put it on the market at 700 bucks when it first came out in 2007. My favorite gun on that list.

>sig 320
Probably the most significant, technologically, besides the whole drop firing mode. Expect more guns like that in the future imo.

>>35179552
The size of the pellets are just shy of 9mm(closer to 380).

Anyway, four pellets per shot shell.... So instead of five projectiles at around 900fps(.38) you have twenty projectiles going 1100 FPS.

You don't know shit.

>>35179586
The anon is talking about firing the entire cylinder worth.

>>35179586
There are .410 shot shells made specifically for the public defender. Much less recoil and tighter groups.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDMDd4eAQO0

This is what I am talking about.

>>35177898
P07 Urban Gray with the internals ripped out and replaced with CGW goodies.

Congratulations on your amazing new gat.

>>35176974
>most commercially successful
Glock gen5. Only one to do any real marketing.
>least commercially successful
CZ P10C. It's been out for almost a year and they've imported only like 8000 of the things.
>prefer
The M&P 2.0 feels the best in my hands. I had an early model (pre Shield trigger) gen1 fullsize 9 and while it felt fantastic it was the least accurate handgun I've ever owned (even off a rest) due to a really fucky barrel crown. I'm talking 5" groups at 10 yards off a rest. Ended up selling it because I could literally shoot better groups with my P01 in DA. Reports say they've fixed it but none of the rental places have one yet.

>>35177816
The early models (pre Shield trigger) had accuracy and reliability issues. Soured a lot of people to them.

>>35179640
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bLonprIWm4

Another video, just for salt in the wound channels.

>>35178357
It's probably the most uncommon "pistol" round out there chambered by a big-name company.

It's about on par with .45acp for price.

>>35177043
>>35177467
>>35177507
The way the whole thing was handled by Sig makes me not trust them. They are in the shit house along with Springfield for me. It's going to take a while of good behavior on their part for me to trust them. S&W and Ruger are both brands people said 'fuck you' to and eventually redeemed themselves. Don't get me wrong though, if the Army does indeed stick with the p320 and I can get one for a song, I probably will though, but it will surely be on the secondhand market so Sig doesn't get a full win.

im really intrigued by the conik, but im a slimy m&p liker, and have yet to finger fuck one.

>>35179791
Fuck Turkey

Buy the M&P, or just save up for a proper P99

>>35178349
>it's not most people's favorite.
Favorites have no bearing on what gets selected for a department's handgun. What it actually means is S&W has excellent relationship with the armors and decision makers in the LEO community. Rightly so as Glock is pretty shit beyond shipping pistols to you for half what SW will. CS wise it's like getting Raj from India (Glock) vs some old loving southern grandma who wants to take care of you no matter what. (S&W)

>>35178404
>Sig's modular frame design from the P250/P320
You mean Steyr's right?

>>35179601
>PD's for cheaper prices than Glock.
lmao wrong. very wrong.

>>35180224
Steyr never sold frames separately to my knowledge nor did they market that capability, so whether or not they had the capability first is irrelevant from the point of the consumer.

>>35180240
Actually surprised to hear that. The civilian MSRP is lower on the M&P. Out here in RI, the M&P scooped a contract with Prov PD. They replaced Glocks I think.

>>35176974
>>CZ P10C
Owned one, lots of potential but still unrefined. Wait for version 2.0; should be fantastic.
>>HK VP9
Shot one, Very nice shooting but I think they put weaker springs in it for a better trigger? I don't know man... the plastic wings bother me.
>>Sig P320
Owned one, Not drop safe and SIG is a shitty company... they have really nice shooting guns but they're just a shitty company.
>>Beretta APX
Finger fucked one, reminds me of rebar and I don't see any appeal to it at all.
>>S&W M&P 2.0
S&W quality control doesn't exist. They literally forget to rifle their barrels.
>>Glock Gen5
Finger fucked one, the 17 seems like a good improvement. The front grip cut on the shorter 19 sits right under the pinky though. It's annoying.
>>Walther PPS
Owned one, best modern single stack 9mm you can get IMO. It's a good summer activity gun.
>>FN 509
Owned one, takes sig x-ray sights, feels refined. It's okay but the only company using it is Brinks, they just recycled the parts from their old compact gun and FN warranty is bonkers. I can't recommend it.

If I had to EDC from this list, I'd probably pick the Gen 5 Glock or Walther PPS. PPS is comfy and really nice shooting. The Glock has pmags, unflappable reliability, good capacity in a relatively small package and all the benefits of huge market share.

>>35180293
They might have been blowing out old stock GEN 1s to PDs if it happened within the last year or so. They're within $30/pistol of each other from what I've been told on a sub 1000 gun contract with S&W costing slightly more when including acc.

I suspect the 2.0 will cost less w/ acc. than the Gen 5 as they received a ~8% increase in unit price.

>>35178447
>taurus public defender is more innovative than this. The 00 handgun loads specifically made for it are much more desirable in CQB considering the fucking shit tier handguns most dudes are carrying anyway.
LOL, no. The Taurus Public Defender/Judge/S&W Governor is good for snake extermination and snake extermination only. And just because something is innovative doesn't make it good, just look at Kel-Tec. It just so happens that the Five-Seven is well made and has a niche, but it hasn't been successful and there's a reason for that. Nobody wants to shoot a super expensive, proprietary .22 magnum-like cartridge that's only made by two companies (and only the FN brand ammo is reliable in the Five-Seven and PS90 anyway). It does have that "second kind of cool," though.

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>>35179432
>>Twenty .380 size balls going 1100 FPS and grouping around the size of a softball at 25 feet.
Want me to tell you how I know you're retarded?

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>>35179791
I have two canik's. (c-100 & tp9sa)
tp9 sa has over 2k with only 3 short strokes from shitty tula. and the c-100 seems nice and accurate from the 200 rounds I've shot so far. I don't have an opinion on the cz yet because it's still in it's baby steps. feels solid tho man.

>>35179432
>>35179568
>>35179608
Four pellets, twenty pellets - what do numbers matter anyway, though? They're only "facts." Probably more #FakeNews, amirite?

>going 1100 FPS
1100 fps, maybe 11,000 fps! Who knows what the real number is, in this post-fact reality?

I can tell you for a Fact that my Taurus The Curve is the best CCW on the market. With Lehigh machined copper bullets, I am getting basically the same ballistics as .44 magnum, which I doubt that your Public Defender can do, even with fifty .380 size pellets traveling at 11 million fps per pull of the trigger!

>>35179785
>The way the whole thing was handled by Sig makes me not trust them. They are in the shit house along with Springfield for me.
That's where they should have been since (((Cohen))) took charge in like 2004 or so. Both the P238 and P938 were handled in the exact same way, except for the drop safeness. Both those guns had serious problems for at least the first two, maybe three, years since roll-out. But Sig never issued any recalls or informed the public that they had upgraded their guns in any way.

>>35181179
I wouldn't shit on the Curve. It's a great design, a real shame more competent manufacturers aren't thinking that practically.

>>35181203
But it's thicker than the other polymer .380 Taurus was already making.

>>35181203
You just confirmed yourself to be a retard.

>>35181213
Go play with one. They're a lot more ergonomic than you think. If I was in the market for a backup I'd be considering it.

>>35181319
But that doesn't change how it's thicker, and therefore more likely to print than Taurus's previous offering.

>>35176974
>Most successful
Glock gen 5
>My favorite
Tie between gen 5 and VP9
>biggest failure
Beretta APX

>>35176974
None of them, I prefer steel framed handguns in general.

I carry a USP compact tho, have been considering a P10c.

>>35178925
Nothing.

>>35178925
Everything.

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>>35181319
It's not actually a curved gun. They just built material out from their TCP design to make it appear like it's curved when retards look at it. Also, it has no fucking sights.

>>35178925
Nothing. You have great taste in common handguns. The only stuff that's really objectively better is stuff like pardinis and old swiss-made sphinxes but those are neither cheap nor tacticool so they don't get discussed here.

>>35179163
Like you said, they didn't like how big and heavy the Berettas were compared to moden guns, so they decided to make poly frames the standard. Even though it wasnt a requirement, they also probably wanted to get rid of da/sa triggers to enhance accuracy and reduce the training needed to get to an acceptable level.

>>35177591
who is this semen demon?