Are Officer's lives more valuable than those of the Enlisted?

In the big picture, his life might be a little more valuable than an enlisted's, sure. In reality all lives are pretty much equal in an infantry platoon. It's not WWI where an officer was second to Jesus and and everyone under him was a mere peasant.

>is there ever a reason an Officer should be on the breaching team when going door to door?
He wouldn't do it for a couple of reasons; for one his riflemen would be far more rehearsed in this area than the officer himself. He wouldn't have had the speed or reaction time that his men would have built up training frequently for back in garrison. Second reason being is that his job is to command and delegate. Doing dirty work like that would be a waste of his job.

>>35168535
>Are Officer's lives more valuable than those of the Enlisted?
Yes you dumbass.

>>35168535
>>35168630
>Doing dirty work like that would be a waste of his job
This. It's not a question of his life being more valuable. It's that if he's doing his job right he's not pulling a trigger (99% of the time).

>>35168535
An Officer should not be kicking in a door if he is doing his job right.

>>35168535

>Standing up
>With binos in hand
>And a radio handset in the other

Somewhere a SFC cringes and searches around the room, looking for the officer he needs to ask "Sir, you want me to paint a bullseye on your face while we're at it?"

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Yo, what's this thing?

>>35168765
alien implant

>>35168535
Yes, they have the actual intel and plans needed to complete missions. NCOs are their to act on those plans.

Its a manager/employee relationship just like at any other job. Manager says we need to bring in more customers, make signs about sales promotion. Employees make the signs and sell.

>>35168765
it's a flashlight

>>35168751
"the cunt with the radio sure looks important"
t. any sniper within 1 km

>>35168765
When it's locked in place like in the picture, it seals the helmet onto the officer's head.

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>Are Officer's lives more valuable than those of the Enlisted?
Uh, yes

>>35168535
Generally in a functional, effective army if you've got officers firing off more than the odd angry shot then they're either in deep shit or filling in a gap due to casualties. At a really basic level in a modern military they're soldiers and will fight like everyone else if needed, however they need to be on a swivel- allocating troops to cover sectors, maintaining communications, getting soldiers to reinforce areas, making sure casualties are taken care of, calling in support etc

You can't really do that if you're on a gun line.

>>35168765
Tactical helmet bling, it's all the rage now.

>>35168854
>"calling in support"
no sir. leave it to the FSTr.

>>35168765

When two officers meet, those lights flash their complete ERBs at each other in morse code so the officers know which of the two is the Alpha and which is the bitch.

>>35171837
keks were had at this.

>>35168535
>is there ever a reason an Officer should be on the breaching team when going door to door?
To get medals?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9uXLzZyucI

>>35168535
>Are Officer's lives more valuable than those of the Enlisted?

Not really a relevant question.

>>35173584
He made a thread to discuss the specifically. It's not distracting from shit.

>>35170972
We'll have to wake up the fister, he was happy sleeping under his rock.
In the meantime there's other forms of support- medical, armour, air, evacuation, other troops or even just 'call a friend' who's not an idiot... heck we can even find a use for that guy who's been following us around complaining about how his feet hurt and grazing on MRE's for the last 10 days called a JTAC

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>>35171837
>ERBS
>officers
Come on man

>>35168535
well yes they go through Officer school which takes a lot of time and money.

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>>35171837

>>35168535
The officer is there to make sure the breaching team does not get flanked.

>>35173584

What is the relevant question?

>>35173691
I'm not an officer man, I don't know what they got.

They don't got ERBs like the rest of-

>Enlisted Record Brief

Oh...

Dunno how the official stats are. But in some wars junior officers and NCOs have had a higher death rate than rank and file.

>>35174050

Most of those wars you reference are WWI and before, when it was considered dishonorable for an officer to do anything else but walk standing up straight in front of his men.

There's a somewhat infamous officer from the Napoleon Wars who was a hero throughtout, but then ruined his reputation when during the battle of Waterloo he jumped out of the way of an incoming cannonball. That one act of "cowardice" (as the people of the early 1800's saw it) stained his entire career.

>>35174071

DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE AVERAGE LIFE SPAN OF AN INFANTRY 2ND LIEUTENANT WAS IN VIETNAM IN 1968??

>>35174086

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2wbrs1/is_it_true_that_life_expectancy_for_second/

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>>35168650
>It's that if he's doing his job right he's not pulling a trigger (99% of the time).

Yep, thats what his NCOs are for, IMO the most important people in a Military, whether modern or historical, are the NCOs.

Officers have to worry about the big picture, NCOs will make sure whatever needs to get done will get done

>>35174024

Its just a stupid question, its like asking if guns are obsolete.

What makes a person more relevant? Their ability. Not their job title. Common sense.

>>35174204

The job title implies ability

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What kind of officers are we talking about here?

All Air Force pilots are officers and they surely have much greater value than the grunts.

>>35168535
don't officers go to train for longer

also economicly officers have a bathculars degree and some other stuff so are hence more valuable and more expensive equipment to the military

while an enlistee whoes training is short and has no degree and is not gonna be usefull to society once war is over is cheaper in value then the officer

it's like comparing a 5 million a1abrahams tank to a 40k humvee

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>>35175599
>bathculars degree

>>35175086
Holy fucking shit, the riveting job there is atrociously nigger tier and the patching looks like it has been done by a drugged-up chink..

>>35168535
Officer cant keep much situational awareness and control if he is busy on a breaching team, that being said maybe he is leading the storming of a building in which case there will be a higher up keeping awareness and he needs to lead his section more specifically which requires him up front?

In WW1+2 officers lead from the front and had the highest casualty rates (next to submariners)

>>35175772

Show me an attack aircraft you consider better done?

>>35168535
Yes and no. They lead the team, but they're considered as valuable as the next man in the team.

>>35171837
underrated post

>>35173691
It's still called an erb

>>35174125
I'd be willing to bet any premodern force, and most modern forces, would do better with great officers and mediocre NCOs, against an equivalent force of mediocre officers and great NCOs

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>>35176367
This, most men are only as great as the people who lead them.

>>35168535
Depends on Combat experience

A fresh out of the academy Infantry Platoon Commander will not be more valuable than the Platoon Sergeant or experienced Squad Leader.

But an experienced and level headed Platoon Commander is irreplaceable which is why it's a shame that literally every good Platoon Commander will grow promotion wings as soon as he's competent and never be seen again

>>35176367

Exact opposite.

If the people at the "doing stuff" end are shit, it doesnt matter how great or thought out a plan is.

However, good people on the ground able to adapt and show initiative can make even the vaguest and most fucked up orders a smashing success.

TL;DR: senior officers exist to ask themselves "I wonder what my soldiers are doing right now?"

>>35176673
The best "boots on the ground" in the world can't save them from Colonel Fucktard's order of "dude just charge right at them lmao" and their subsequent envelopment by Sergeant Fucktard's "dude just point your guns in their direction lmao" squad.
See: Battle of Balaclava
In fairness though current "war" is pretty shit what with the whole counter-insurgency business making real strategy pointless.

>>35176673
I am not afraid of an army of lions led by a sheep; I am afraid of an army of sheep led by a lion.
Alexander the Great

Platoon sgt > Platoon leader

First sgt > co cmdr

Csm > bn/brigade cmdr

>>35176743

Well, of course, all those enlisted positions take at least five more years work to acquire than any of those officer jobs.

>>35175599
>bathcular

>>35176722

>nigga gets born on 2nd and thinks he hit a double

I have no use for atistocracy's opinions of using their trained enlistedmen to kill peasant farmers while they "wage war" in a tent.

>>35176713

"Just charge right at them."

Youre right. When the entire force is made up of farmers and peasants plucked right off the farm and handed a polearm, the man with the better shouted order wins.

And then Napoleon dies and we did the whole WW1 thing and realized where that thinking gets us.

>>35176885
>dude professional armies didn't exist until WW1 lmao
why are you even discussing history man

>>35176918

>professional armies didnt exist before WW1

Exactly.

We had dudes in snazzy outfits shooting flintlocks at each other in open fields.

We had an officer lead a march towards enemy lines to stab people with bayonets.

The entire concept of warfare got turned on its head last century and the militaries of the world were forced to adapt or become third world monkey armies.

>>35176918

The US Navy has a truthism.

A ship that goes underway with no officers will come back 6 months later and will not be cleaned.

A ship that goes underway with only officers will have to be towed back in.

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>>35168765
It's a stoplight for deaf grunts. Affirmative action sort of deal.

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>>35176367

>>35176367
Success of a military operation has a lot of factors to it- Strategic reasons for action, military doctrine, equipment, logistics and area of conflict
As the old saying goes, you can win battles but not necessarily the war. Which is a truism for the most part because individual and large group quality doesn't necessarily have a lot of bearing at the strategic level, you can have all the race car, high speed low drag dudes out there kicking arse, but if they're outnumbered by 100-1, armed with fruit knives, days from reinforcement, no comms and their countries combat doctrine is countermanding their current operational reality, they're gunna lose

Doesn't matter if they have great officers and NCO's, all that matters in a theatre of operations is that they carry out their orders and achieve a localised success to those parameters they're given. Where quality does come into play is that you can do more with less, which lets you do other things with other forces.
So if our 100 race cars can achieve the objective and the enemy needs 1000 drafted ladas to do the same, its more efficient and sometimes being efficient matters a lot more in the long term, but objectivity wise- if both sides have managed to achieve that operational success, its still a localised win at the strategic level

Going back to the combat reality crossing with military doctrine, that's been an issue for most armed forces at some stage or another. Be it crossing a 38th parallel North or The Rubicon, your military doctrine might mean you're static having to listen to barbarians and MIG's on the other side of that area having a great old time. Going up there might mean murdering pilots in their beds, or losing everyone in the unit to barbarians. But what you want and what you can actually do comes down to command discipline, sometimes that means localised victory, but also at the cost you're over-extended and going to die horribly because you've just let some other factor into play

>>35176356
ORB*

>>35168535
Depends on the officer

>>35176713
This I was on the Hurricane Harvey Clean up and because all the senior Os in the National Guard are retarded nothing got done when they started butting heads.
>>35176673
A good officer in charge would have helped coordinate people to where they were needed.
NCOs not so much.

>>35178919

And a good NCO can do everything a good officer can do at their requisite level.

An engineroom or infantry platoon does not need officers. Officers need the engineroom or infantry platoon.

Once an officer gets high enough to be directing multiple platoons they are so far removed from the day to day operations that their orders could be coming out of a magic box or fortune cookie so long as they follow them.

Hell, half of being a good leader is taking the advice and recommendations from the NCO's.

The US military's biggest failure is providing context and meaning for their actions. The "why" when it comes to allowing or not taking those recommendations.

The military hides it behind need to know when the reality is that doing so would remove the officer's necessity to exist up to the O4 level.

>>35168765
Surefire HL-1, Helmet light,

>>35179111
How are you going to get good majors if they don't start out as cherry lieutenants?

>>35176673
>GO SIT ON THAT HILL AND BE SUPER OPR8ER without aircover or artillery support and no supplies
>go set up an ambush and barely hit anything while not moving to take/destory abandon assets

>>35179223

The question is are good majors born or made?

>>35179258

This is a failure of the military.

The platoon does not have the authority or initiative to push or make recommendations up the chain of command.

Or do you think IRL military is like a game of Starcraft and commanders need amazing micro to not be scrubs?

Also.

>do this without support

Reality

>command has us doing this without support but I talked to my buddy in the weapons section who wants to blow shit up and the FA section in the FOB wants CIBs.

>>35168835
>corps
>UCP

>>35168535
Inistrically? Hell no. One seasoned sergeant is worth a dozen O1s, and they know it.

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>>35175599
>bathculars degree

>>35177046
It's really not a surprise that the entire enlisted structure was designed to work independently of officer oversight, all it takes is a professional NCO corps and a system that encourages NCO inititiative

>>35176555

I would like the retired Russian general from the First Chechen War to go and stay go.

>>35168535
if anyone seen last ship he would know a good captain abandons his command on his ship to go ashore and lead his assault team personally door to door in firefights at the slightest hint of trouble.

>Officers
>Doing anything

You mean NCOs, right? Because the lowest down an actual officer ever operates is platoon lead.

>>35183004

Because the electric jew is infatuated with larger than life tales of a general leading from the front like egyptian heiroglyphs and other masturbatory tales of conquests of old.

This is how we end up with neverserves who write Commando or Suicide Squad where the fightiest spec ops soldier is an O6 who goes on solo recon missions to blow up the iraqis during a nightime hostage rescue of stolen nuclear weapons.

Because heaven forbid the guy DOING SHIT is an E4/E5.

Remember gents. The man who canoed bin Laden's face was an E6.

>>35183039
yeah i guess if you can't delegate dangerous shit to your man you absolutely failed as an officer. they try to make it look heroic it just looks weak ass pussy to me.

you can't command men into their deaths if needed? go back to your fucking womans studies and knitting!

>>35183039
>>35183004
https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence/exclusive-documents-expose-direct-us-military-intelligence-influence-on-1-800-movies-and-tv-shows-36433107c307

>>35168535
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1oCl61r3kQ

>>35179111
>half of being a good leader is taking the advice and recommendations from the NCO's.
t. NCOs with their heads up their asses.

Half of being a good leader is knowing when NOT to take the advice and recommendations from the NCOs.

Half the senior NCOs I saw in the Army in the late 2000s were absolute garbage.

More than a third of SNCOs in my BN in Korea were on the Avoid Iraq Program for their fourth or fifth year running and many of them would disappear to go hang out with their fillipino waifus to sing karaoke during the day.

I had one SNCO get run up as part of a group who stole over 100k of Army Equipment

I had one SNCO who had 18 years in who thought he was retired already and wouldn't do any of his collateral duties and barely did his actual job, usually telling me "Oh we're too busy right now, sir", only to have me catch him and his buddies telling war stories and gossip while lounging in their platoon area on sofas an hour later. That same NCO usually had junior enlisted around to his house on evenings and weekends, often female junior enlisted. That SAME NCO, while on a SAW range told the firing line to ride the bolt forward and prepare to fire, then tried punish the one new E2 who took him at his word for an ND.

I had one 1SG who during an attack on the FOB, was directing SAW fire from the edge of his concrete bunker in the middle of the FOB, with all his Joes firing SOUTH, over barracks huts and company CPs, while the attack was coming from the East.

I had another who went into TRADOC as an E4 and came out an E6 who methodically and deliberately sabotaged his E7P platoon sergeant so that he could take over the platoon. This same NCO also had his guys leave live ammunition, including mortar rounds and grenades in a connex in the motorpool and reported it all turned in so they wouldn't have to work late or post a guard overnight.

>>35183136
Then again, I should mention I was an Infantry NCO before I crossed over the O line and ended up in Logistics.

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>>35175599
>bathculars

>>35183136
>>35183144

real question is, how, as an officer, did you deal with these NCOs

>>35183136

Yeah man. And the officers really turned all that around with their college degrees, leadership skills, and west point decoder rings.

What was your CoC into? Ive got stories of sexual assault, running aground, and unintentionally exposing mil and civie personnel to asbestos.

But the military circles the wagons to protect officers from their own bad decisions. Cant have the fact an officer just killed 18 people from mesothelioma get in the way of his career track.

>>35183144

>logistics officer calling other people fucked up

It was all your fault. You had one job in supply, be king retard and the only person worth a damn by virtue of not being a negro.

Neck yourself.

>>35176555
>>35175798
>>35174125
https://youtu.be/ZNGMBSv-78w

IMO simulators are really eye opening for such things. For example this fella is fireteam leader in Alpha1 and has to coordinate between Alpha squad lead and his fireteam. Rarely shoots, especially in other vids when higher in rank, but does a good job of managing the riflemen below.
Also his shouting when shit hits the fan is hilarious

>>35183168
What was all my fault? That I was the first person to come along and not take their shit, or that they were fucked up before I got there?
Also Logistics=Supply, Kek. Neck yourself, you ignorant twat.

>>35183157
>real question is, how, as an officer, did you deal with these NCOs
In all but two of the cases. The 1SG didn't belong to me, so I reported him up, and the SNCO stealing equipment got dealt with by CID and Echelons above me. The rest of them were dealt with in various ways and their careers may or may not have ended earlier and/or at a lower rank than they planned.

>>35183206

>logistics=/=supply

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

>it was like that when I got here

You never should have made it past E4.

>>35183215
Logistics = Transportation and Maintenance too
And it was like that before I got there, maybe you missed the part where I said I fixed it.

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>>35175599
bathculars

>>35183039
You can show a leader as being a cool dude without making him lead from the front to a ludicrous extent. I don't get why Hollywood has such an issue with this. Or at least come up with a better excuse. 'oh fug, command post/ship/whatever is under attack and everybody needs to grab a gun' would be a lot more tolerable than the highest ranked man involved putting himself in needless danger at every chance.

>>35168535
No, it's not. He shouldn't breach because he doesn't have proper training to do so, and he can't do his job (calling on the radio) if he is kicking doors.

>>35168535
>Are Officer's lives more valuable than those of the Enlisted?

yes

>>35168535
>Or, to ask in a different way, is there ever a reason an Officer should be on the breaching team when going door to door?

not while there is capacity for the role in the men he is in command of


the officers weapon IS the men he commands