How important is barrier penetration in modern combat? Is it

Depends on if you really care about anything in and around the guys you want dead, and if you can or can't have a plane or artillery blow it the fuck up. I'd imagine.

>>35110182
That's probably a good reason the Army wants to switch to .308. Better barrier penetration than 5.56 by far.

>>35110182

I think most small arms will be fine for just one wall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lprGoEpDXJQ

>>35110182
The only penetration you need to worry about with small arms is whether it can penetrate body armour, even then everyone the west has fought in the last few conflicts have been goatfuckers in a hat with a rusty AK, not well equipped and protected troops.
The only exception to this is anti-materiel like .50 caliber weapons.

>>35110347
I still think 5.56x45 from a 20" barrel will penetrate armor better than 7.62x51--that makes the AR-15 or a similar rifle still the ideal choice for a modern war.

Attempting to shoot through a wall to hit a combatant on the other side is a dubious proposition. No guarantee that the bullet will pass through since there could be something solid in the wall or between it and the target. There's also the issue of concealment, the exact position of the enemy could be vague and there's no way to know if you hit him. Consider this: Dude pokes head around wall, you shoot at it, he doesn't present himself afterwards. Does that mean he's hit? Is he dead? Did he retreat to a different position? Is he sitting there waiting in ambush?

So sure, being able to shoot through a wall might help, but since you can't be sure that it had the desired effect you still have to act as if it didn't. Ergo tactics should focus on visible hits where possible. Ergo barrier penetration is of secondary importance.

>>35110347
Because people don't hide behind cars and walls (not like the walls in your American mcmansion, brick & cinder) in urban warfare, or trees in any other warfare. Gotcha.

>>35110496
Most bullets, unless made of tungsten or some other very dense metal, will deform once they hit a hard or dense enough object. Manufacturing all your small arms ammunition to be able to punch through cars and walls is a waste of time, money and material, not to mention the fact that it would be markedly worse at its primary goal, i.e killing people. Its much better having rounds designed to kill people that also penetrate somewhat well versus rounds that punch through entire buildings but dont create a big enough wound to let the bodies hit the floor in an efficient manner.

Gotcha.

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>>35110182
That's what the cluster charges are for.

>>35110182
Carbines aren't for barrier penetration. 40mm through windows and doors, concentrated GPMG fire, HMGs, and every varied version of rocket and missile launcher there is - those are.

>>35110182
>How important is barrier penetration in modern combat?

How much penetration is enough? How would this influence the terminality of impact against a surface? Why are you not using a better tool to eliminate the barrier at all?

>>35110320
I thought it was about 300+ meter engagements in afghanistan making it hard to get effective hits with an intermediate cartridge.

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>>35110636
Gotta make sure everyone is dead.

In an infantry platoon that's pretty much the exact job of the weapons squad during a raid is to shoot the fuck out of the target building before the clearing squad goes in. The mission is way safer if everyone is dead already by the time you have to clear the building.

>>35113856
wat
5.56 is arguably the best cartridge for long range firefights (aside from special snowflake cartridges). High velocity + low recoil

if our politics weren't totally cucked we'd just field assault gun battalions to destroy enemy structures.

>>35110636

Is this some sort of AP cluster munition designed to penentrate roofs?

Or wat?

>>35110368
Well you're wrong, so maybe stop thinking.

>>35116018
it's retarded vidya bullshit

>>35115328
>5.56 is arguably the best cartridge for long range firefights (aside from special snowflake cartridges). High velocity + low recoil
With a maximum effective range of 500m? Nah.

>>35116058
you can't see shit that far away in a fight, much less hit it when you're being shot at and they are behind cover.

it's what GPMGs and HE are for.

converting to a heavier round and halving ammo quantity, OTOH, cripples maneuver elements ability to provide local suppression.

>>35116068
Tell that to the Army.

>>35115328
5.56 sucks at range. It's nice close up because it's fast and light, but after a few hundred yards it bleeds off so much energy that it's like a mosquito bite on impact. Full size rounds like 7.62 start with way more energy, and keep it way farther. The problem in Afghanistan was never hitting targets, it was about the rounds not doing anything to what they hit.

>>35116058
5.55 has an effective range of 900m. You're probably thinking of the Marines shooting at 500m for qual.

>>35113856
I think it's more a thing regarding stopping power. Apparently 5.56 doesn't deter suicide bombers that much.

>>35116181
The max effective point target range for the M4A1 is 500m

>>35110320
>That's probably a good reason the Army wants to switch to .308

that is fake news

>>35110182
>see someone pop their head out?
Just spray that wall with some 762x51

>>35110182
Not really. I'll just launch a 203 at that bitch or or machine gunners or mortars or artillery.

Round penetration is for humans.

>>35116164
> it was about the rounds not doing anything to what they hit
...that's what people who don't hit say. Which is no surprise, because no-one is hitting that concealed PKM doing harassing fire from 900m with a semiautomatic weapon and 4x scope. GPMG, HE, or nuffin; unless you're a sniper with a sniper rifle, sniper optic, and no-one is shooting at you, and you know where they are.

>>35116195
You know what "deters" people? A 20 round burst to the head and chest from a belt fed weapon.

>>35116195
>Apparently 5.56 doesn't deter suicide bombers that much.

yeah who would have thought that suicide bombers wouldn't be afraid of dying.

>>35116076
I'm in the army m8, how do you think I know it's retarded? Everyone deployed as a combat MOS in the rank of E8 or O3 and below knows it.

The "muh 308 ADVAP" is a general's scummy attempt at building a program for his retirement plan, and "muh Russian plates/muh Afghanistan hills" are the excuses.

>>35110368
>I still think 5.56x45 from a 20" barrel
This is annoying. Not everything is M193 or M855.