General Mercenaries thread.

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Bump

It's possible but very stupid for any real country.

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>>35106979
Explain.

>>35106997
>The mercs randomly decide to leave, or work for the enemy for better pay
>You have no army

>>35106910
Funnily, no, because you can't pay the mercenary more than regular troops if you don't have any regular troops.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/Article.xsp?action=openDocument&documentId=8E7340DFAA839EEDC12563CD0051F3EB

>>35106997

why pay a bunch of dudes 300k a year when you can have people willingly enlist for much cheaper? mercenaries are really only good for doing dirty work or giving a small/poor country a temporary army, hence why mercenaries were WAY more popular back in the 1600s

>>35106910
>our military is our biggest single expense
>we pay the members of our rather large military peanuts

>so let's hire guys who won't work for peanuts

>>35107036
>>our military is our biggest single expense
lol

>>35106997
here you go
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condottieri

>>35106997
Expensive, unreliable and generally bananaish. The only scenarios where a mercenary army would be preferable are if the country is too small to sustain a standing army but rich enough for mercenaries or if the people want your head on a stick.

>>35106997
it's not sustainable like anon pointed out >>35107036

>>35106921
what the fuck is his problem?

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Going to ignore OP's question entirely, posting Mercs. Congo Crisis

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Also some of these guys may or may not be 5 Commando, I'm not an expert on every mercenary group that operated during this time period.

>>35106910
If, by mercenaries, you mean guns for hire - lol the US has that now. Most enlistees don't believe the garbage about enemies foreign and domestic.

I mean seriously. We have officer corps who think "tribalism has no place in a modern military force" - seriously wtf.

Which just tells me that the being in the US Armed forces is an occupation, nothing more.

>>35108353
>futball
He's probably homosexual.

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This guy was an ex-Wehrmact officer (of somewhat dubious service, his records were never verified) who fought in 5 Commando under Mike Hoare.

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Some pics of 5 Commando (Mike Hoare's outfit, arguably the best modern Merc groups before EO)

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5 Commando with weapons captured from Simba revolutionaries (backed by Cuba/USSR).

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The absolute madman himself, Mike Hoare. Guy ran the tightest Merc outfit of the 1960's, and kicked Che Guevara's ass out of the Congo. Here's an interview about that.
https://youtu.be/ziS1odAGLtg

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Some mercs from 4 Commando, I may be wrong but these guys may have been a Biafran outfit instead of Katangese (Mike Hoare/Bob Denard/ Jean Schramme all worked for Katanga at some point).

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Rolf Steiner, leader of 4 Commando and most of the mercs in Biafra. Confirmed my own question, 4 Commando was a Biafran mercenary outfit.

Steiner and other European mercs lent a massive contribution to the Biafrans in their unfortunately futile fight against the much larger Nigerian military, more than one ended up dying over there.

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Another pic of Steiner. Ex FFL

>>35106997
Just look at the fall of Rome. By the decline, most soldiers were foreign mercenaries who were more loyal to gold or their generals than to Rome. So when Rome is sacked or they get beaten, they run off with their pay

The Vatican is protected by the swiss guard, who were originally, and essentially still are, mercenaries

>>35106910
>war were declared
>2/3 of mercs desert and 1/3 stay to pillage your country
Yeah great idea

>>35107027
Training one soldier is a million dollar expense anon. Mercs are already trained

>>35108353
Rich euro "futbol"-er probably has 2 side chicks hotter than her.

>>35109185
Too bad they couldn't get G3's.
>Tiliting block< roller delayed blowback
As far as accuracy goes.

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>>35106910
It's like only children post questions on this board.
>Mercenaries are pretty good
>WHAT IF EVERYTHING WAS MERCENARIES?!
I swear 9/10 threads are like this. Everything in moderation.

If I remember correctly during the Renaissance many countries in modern Italy did this.

>>35111435
City States*
They could do this because Italy was something of a microcosm flooded to the brim with new culture, technology and wealth.
Analogues with today are how PMC's fill in the cracks for America's military machine.

>>35110817
It's because they played MGS and thought that was real life.

>>35110817
Much like when tards go "what if every soldier was Special Forces/SEALs?"

I don't know about modern warfare, but most professional fighting men were almost always mercenaries for most of history. Standing armies are a pretty new thing, and in the past only a few empires had them. Traditionally most of your army would be mercenaries, supplemented by whatever peasants you could conscript (Which didn't last long, weren't very effective, and sometimes even had to be allowed to go home for harvest, lest you win the war but starve to death the year after)

>>35106910
In principle, there's no reason why they can't. I don't know if you could really say that any particular nation has done quite that, but I know many nations relied primarily on private defense contractors of one sort or another at various points throughout history. I think ''The Myth of National Defense'' has some essays on it.
https://mises.org/sites/default/files/Myth%20of%20National%20Defense%2C%20The%20Essays%20on%20the%20Theory%20and%20History%20of%20Security%20Production_3.pdf

>>35107004
>Every merc makes the same decision all at once.
Okay buddy.

>>35107016
Interesting technicality. So if your defense was ''all'' mercenaries, they're technically ''not'' mercenaries? Oh I really like that. That'd be some glorious lawyering to whip out when they come to bitch at you about it.

>>35107027
>>35107036
Mercs are competing on a market to provide a service. They can be fired for not producing results. That alone gives you more bang for your buck.
I will say that your primary expense probably comes not from paying personnel, but paying for equipment. If the mercs have to buy their own equipment, then you can bet your ass they won't fall prey to the same procurement bullshit that the military does, 'cause not only does their bottom line improve if they spend less, but they're directly relying on that equipment to save their own lives, instead of leaving the decision up to senators trying to appease companies in their own districts with special deals.

>>35107132
Depending on how the mercenary army is structured and funded, that may be more or less of a problem. If I'm honest, I wouldn't trust most major countries to do it responsibly.

>>35109173
OP did say "completely".

>>35109801
That happened because they debased their currency to enable their out-of-control spending. After a while purchasing power the money the mercs were getting plummeted and they really couldn't afford to live on it anymore. Full pockets mean little when there's not enough food to buy.

>>35110817
>Everything in moderation.
Well there are some problems with that thinking, but this isn't /k/ - Philosophy.

>>35112650
Come to think of it, wasn't one of the unusual things about Rome the fact that it had a standing professional state army? That seems to make sense, since it's hard to imagine most countries prior to then having enough spare revenue to maintain a standing army. The economic productivity needed to produce enough taxes to fund that kind of national expenditure would have been rare until relatively recent history.

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>>35109538
>>35109556
What ever happened to Biafra anyway? Did they at least get some autonomy or did the Sand Niggers shut them down entirely?

>>35113334
>sand niggers
Wut?

Anyhow, Biafra eventually lost because the Nigerians cut them off from any aid and starved them out (killing 1-2 million in the process). They didn't slaughter the Igbo people (the ethnic group comprising the majority of those who seceded to Biafra), so there was that. The leader of Biafra was even allowed to come back from exile in his later years. There's still plenty of tension in that area to this day, doesn't help that the people who inhabit the area where Biafra was are Christian and the people's to the North are Muzzies (this is also why Boko Haram are active in northern Nigeria and not the south),

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>>35106910
>Could a country's military be completely made up of mercenaries?
It would be a bad idea

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>>35114298
>Wut?
I was generalizing Mooslims as sand niggers though you have a point given Nigerians aren't Arab.
Interesting info non the less, thanks anon. I didn't have to waste time on Kikeopedia.

>>35108353
When you're actually a normal human being you have feelings. Sometimes you feel a certain way at a certain time and aren't thinking 'omg now is my chance to lose my virginity'.

You literally just told us all you've never even held hands with a girl. Ya' loser.

>>35106910
If you want 0 loyalty.

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>>35106910
Mercenary Armies make disinterested soldiers, used as auxiliary at best.

Militia/Warrior Aristocracy armies can be disloyal but are self-sufficient.

Volunteer armies are professional, but highly expensive and unsuitable for total war.

Conscript armies are capable of fielding greater numbers at a lower cost, but are politically extremely dangerous.

Slave Armies on the other hand have been extremely successful, despite it being counter-intuitive. Nobody utilizes Slave Armies due to Slavery being outlawed, but historically they have been most the effective fighting force.

>>35106910
>What is The French Foreign Legion, Alex

>>35116595
Slave armies would work only in low tech warfare.

>>35117402
you don't understand. they are not slaves in the sense of working the fields then get conscripted into an army. they were basically kidnapped as children, and lived in barraks in the royal complex, and trained their whole loves as soldiers. they were generally kept apart from the local populations, and not allowed to mix. their whole existence consisted of military life.

that anon was right, slave armies are historically the best fighting units.

>>35117402
Nonsense. Take a bunch of seven to twelve year olds, indoctrinate them into your system, micromanage their lives, separate them from the populace, train them well, give them perks as they progress (plenty of sex and drinking,) and you have a kernel of an infantry force like Spartans that's only loyal to the State. Eventually, they will identify as an ethnic group whose sole purpose is violence. Morally indefensible? Yes. But it worked out great when implemented.

>>35106979
this

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>>35109173
>We have officer corps who think "tribalism has no place in a modern military force"

When did this happen?

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>>35109516
I can't believe this guy is still alive.

I wish I had a grandpa like this

>>35109129
anymore pics?

>>35106910
if you want mass atrocities and unacceptability, just like free market capitalism, then go ahead. we 're all gonna die anyways

>>35113022
Historically citizen armies have plowed through slave or mercenary armies regardless of numbers

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>>35118432
Sure, here's Marc Goosens. Belgian guy who fought for Biafra, until pic related happened. Died leading Biafran troops in a frontal assault. His buddy Taffy Williams avenged him to some degree later, I'll get more on him later.

Just a quick reminder for all the mystique and glory of the 60's/70's mercs, a lot of these guys did not make it back. Not every merc outfit was professional, and there was always a good chance you'd end up in a shallow grave in Africa forgotten.

>>35106910
The Chad Operator vs the Virgin Operator

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>>35120300
Marc when he was still alive.

>>35120300
any good book recommendations learning about this stuff?

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>>35120325
I believe Mike Hoare wrote a few, I haven't read much on the subject if we're talking about the 60's-70's. Pic related is about a former Green Beret who did stuff in the Balkans and Somalia in the 90's, its a very good read. Really explains on how mercenary work is often unrewarding and that a lot of mercs are not at all professional and aren't above shooting you in the back if they feel like it.

Citizen standing army>Citizen militia>Totalitarian state army>Slave army>mercenariy army

There are other factors at play and there are exceptions. And it only applies to war between two states. In limited conflicts mercs may be perfectly fine.

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>>35120339
And this book is absolutely great for stuff on based motherfucking NEAL ELLIS (Gunship dude who btfo the RUF for years in Sierra Leone) and the beginnings of Executive Outcomes. Author has decades of experience in Africa, writes great stuff. Timespan covers 90's to early 2000's.

>>35120339
thanks for the recommendations. I've been currently reading about the school of Americas so it's cool to know about this type of stuff.

>>35106910
Mandatory listening for /k/.

https://soundcloud.com/kommandoradio/neall-ellis-interview

God damn mercenary hind pilots indulging anime domestic terrorists.

>>35120386
thanks for the link

>>35109164
The Jeep does not question its masters. The Jeep was built to serve, not to second guess.

>>35120342
are citizen militias still a thing a anymore? They seem outdated

>>35118270
The last decade saw a host of changes to the US armed forces brass. None of them good.

>>35120505
I remember that Navy didn't allow women to join Seals because women were more susceptible to the cold than men. My only fear is that they are going to lower the standard when it comes to Special Forces to fit in a quota

>>35120758
How does one become a Swiss guard?

>>35106910
sure

>>35120264
>mass atrocities and unacceptability, just like free market capitalism
Can you believe some people ''actually believe'' that?

>>35120292
Care to elaborate and substantiate? When you refer to citizen armies, are you talking about a standing army? Can you point out some examples of what you're talking about?

>>35120446
>They seem outdated
It's mostly just what drafts used to be called:
https://mises.org/system/tdf/15_4_2.pdf?file=1&type=document

>>35109516
Che Guevara pretty much decided to leave on his own accord since the Congolese turned out to be not that great a fighting force and not very interested in his marxist teachings.

>>35109273
Those are not mercenaries, regular Katangese paratroopers (note the berets) and Irish UN troops, probably as POWs*.

*Note how only the Katangase guys are armed.

How much are the Saudi mercenaries fighting in Yemen getting paid?

>>35108353
That's the face of a man with a girlfriend who is probably watching him on tv.

Or he is gay.

>>35110759
G3s are also much more resistant to mud

>>35123728
Thanks for the clarification, never knew the context of the pic outside of it being from the Congo Crisis.

>>35123761
The Saudis can't even defeat a small nation like Yemen. Why haven't we invaded them????

>>35106997
Mercenaries fight for money and have a desire to want to spend that money. So as soon as a better offer comes up or they decide that it's to risky you lose your army.

>>35117402
Child soldiers seem to work well in africa. Imagine if they were given real training and gear.

>>35124028
Child soldiers don't perform well in combat

>>35124149
>Crew served weapons

Of course not. Using mercenaries makes sense in some cases.
However, modern warfare is extremely expensive and fielding a well-equipped well-trained force in sufficient numbers can only realistically be funded by the state.
And even theoretically, if you had mercenary companies that were well equipped and numerous, then you'd have the issue of having to deal with well armed and trained force without any allegiance to the state, with little control from the state, motivated solely by pursuit for profit. That's not really good.

>>35124028
Take this with a grain of salt because >muh airsoft, but child combatants are notoriously fucking bad at being combat effective.

>Gas blowback games (30-ish round mags, simulated recoil, semi-authentic gear, no wind disturbance because indoor field)
>Always get a minimum of 5 to 10 little kiddies who borrow their dad's gear or rent out the kits for their birthdays or something
>Make it a point to spend half an hour drilling them on the most basic of shit that anyone should logically be able to master in 10 minutes (trigger discipline, reload on the fly, how to identify positions based on the 12 o'clock system, communicating with your team, high-low, suppressing fire, don't-stand-in-the-open-and-please-try-to-find-cover-for-once tactic)
>During games, we almost invariably get friendly fire, kids standing in the open, firing from the hip like Rambo, cowardice (kids are often chosen as medic to make them feel speeshul, but they just hide in the back and refuse to move up), general refusal to follow orders, and cowboy-itis

Kids are the worst. When I was in Highschool learning about the RUF, I was all like "Oh no, they just use them as meat shields and mine detectors, that's so inhumane!", but after just playing a literal make believe game of war with them, my position immediately changed to "yeah, fuck those guys, they're only good as diversions and human shields".

>>35106910
Look up carthadge. It worked out really well until they stiffed their mercs a couple too many times.

>>35120943
Be Swiss

It's not a good idea because if mercs were the only military force of a country, then they could easily overthrow the political leadership and take over the country themselves. That has happened many times to the Egyptians.

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Bumping with some Portuguese with the FNLA in Angola, bit of a short-lived thing considering the FNLA got pretty well fucked by the MPLA once the latter began to receive serious Cuban/Soviet support.

>>35109164
>Woody Allen on the MG

An entire army of mercenaries isn't the best idea. Mercenaries tend to be good at what they do, but like any private contractors, you'd want to check reviews, work experience, how the company has preformed in the past, etc before you hire them. Also, while it's good to stay within budget, remember, mercenaries you hire to deal with a rebel problem aren't something you want to cheap out on.

Modern Mercenaries are best used when you can't afford to train good quality operators, but you need them, as seen with Executive Outcomes in Sierra Leone. They routed the RUF and retook the diamond fields, freed people from slavery, and stabilized the country so peace talks could take place. They were fired because of international pressure against Sierra Leone because mercenaries are bad, racist, rapists apparently.

After EO left, the RUF was reformed and tore through the capital, raping, pillaging, mutilating, murdering and burning. The slaves returned to the diamond fields and civilians were killed because the UN peacekeepers couldn't do it.

Mercenaries are also useful in training local troops. Want some special forces? Need your troops to suck less? Hire a mercenary company to teach your best men how to be operators. For example, the Katangese Paratroopers. They were trained by European mercenaries, and were effective against the UN troops during the Congo Crisis.

When they're paid, mercenaries are very effective and tend to act professional. After all,if they're just a bunch of lazy, greedy, incompetents who terrorize civilians because they're bored, they won't be seeing much employment after that. Unless their employer wanted them to go burn down random villages, still would be a black mark on their reputation and would limit their employability.

TL;DR Modern Mercenaries are good at being operators and training, and investigate any mercenary company with similar criteria as you would use to investigate a contractor to put an addition on your house.

>>35126534
In addition to this, mercenaries are good for other specialist tasks, like pilots, if you need some good pilots and can't wait for your men to finish flight school, some experienced pilots for hire will give your army increased mobility and CAS, assuming this is an African state fighting rebels like what most modern mercenary companies operated in, although this will work in any underdeveloped state.

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Carthage tried that and it didnt end so well for them

>>35120325
Mike Hoare's Congo Mercenary is a good one, highly recommend it.

>>35127439
noted

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Mike Hoare's mercenary experiences were interesting, fought in the Congo, had the whole Seychelles Affair, then prison time for Mad Mike. After all that he's still kicking at 98.

>>35106910
US army is 100% mercenaries.

>>35108353
Not everyone is desperate Anon

>>35109556
I believe Steiner is still alive. Had a better post Mercenary life than Sultan Denard.

>>35129580
>>35129580
does he have any children?

>>35106910
All the usual shit gets spouted here.

And it's mostly true.

But yes OP, it CAN work. It probably won't, but it can.

Without going into what makes a 'good' merc from the hiring perspective, there is one trait that is absolutely without question important. Honor. You need someone who takes the view "I'm working under contract, and while I'm under contract I'm working for you. It doesn't matter if your enemies offer ten times as much money as you are paying me, I'm working for you right now."

Bitch of it is that is also one of the rarest traits. Used to be a big thing but the honor of being a member of an ultra elite band of famous warriors isn't what it used to be, so now all mercs are just killers for higher. Sometimes they are super soldier '20 years in the Navy SeALs sick of the red tape and being told how to dress!' types, very often the 'Rape that kid to death infront of her father then bash his brains in with a rock? Easy money!' types.

(And note I'm talking on the global scale were 98% of mercs work for african warlords and thai drug kingpins and shit, not the fictional world were Black Water or whatever the fuck they call themselves this year are the norm)

>>35132050
None that I know of. Had a niece, but she died in a plane crash in 2010.

>>35108353
He lost and he feels shitty, she can suck his cock on the private jet plane back when he feels better.

Men who can get 10/10 pussy on demand aren't always super horny anon.

>>35110642
Economy of scale.

>>35106910
It could

If it's capital building was completely full of treasury funds

nationalists are cheaper to maintain and more devoted to your cause, you make your citizens patriots and train them well they would be a far more economic choice

>>35132479
This.

Mercenaries are a movie thing they don't actually exist

>>35132050
Yes he has, at least one son by the name of Chris Hoare.

>>35106979
It worked out fairly well for Carthage, but only with charismatic guys like Hamilcar and Hannibal to keep them cohesive.

>>35109255
As far as I know, he really was in the Wehrmacht. Whether or not he was an actual officer is unverified.

>>35126862
>Crossing of the Alps
>Trebia
>Trasimene
>Cannae

I'd say it worked out pretty well for them at least once.

>>35134694
So well that Rome burned carthage to the ground lmao.

>>35106910

No, they cost way more, especially once you get into the weeds.

Enlisted Intelfag (35F for example) with deployment experience: E4-E7 salary on average

Same guy contracting: 72k-90k

>>35123968
They'll destroy all their oil wells to spite us before we take them out like the Iraqis did in Kuwait.

>>35124940
Might be because they're western soft cunts who've been coddled by their parents and grew up on action movies. Kids from shitholes might take to training better, especially if you add corporal punishment to the equation.

>>35135492
true

>>35117471
>But it worked out great when implemented.
Depends on how you define "great". Janissaries in the Ottoman Empire represented a major political actor that often interfered with the stability of succession.