Stop this caliber memeshitery

>>35022829
>stop this caliber memeshittery
>9mm is better because I say so
Quality post OP

>>35022829
>Unironically believing a round that overpenetrates and has low stopping power is fit for the 21st century.
Hey 9mmfags, how many world wars has your meme caliber seen?

>>35022829
22 > 9mm

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>>35022857
>>35022867
>>35022864

MUHHHH OVER PENETRATUNNGGG

>>35022864
>how many world wars has your meme caliber seen?
Both?

>>35022879
>JHP

>>35022911
>Not understanding they're all JHP.

>>35022919
that's the point you autistic fucking nazi fascist

>>35022927
lol
if theyre all the same then they penetrate the same lol

>>35022939
Stop replying. .45 has proven itself, and is a round universally symbolic of freedom and justice, 9mm has always fought for fascism and oppression.
/thread

>>35022879
One of the posts you replied to mentioned overpenetration
Are you retarded?

>>35022954
>this non argument
ok listen, i understand the 45 feels soooo slick and soo smooth and its like a good single stack but PLEASE understand that the picture clearly illustrates that the 45 and 9mm are the same in penetration, ok thanks

>>35022952
But 9mm is the service caliber of the US military?

2mm > 9mm

1mm > 9mm

>>35022992
And became the service caliber right around the time that the U.S. became inclined towards fascism and global oppression of smaller, less powerful nations. Just take a look at the rhetoric of our current President. Does that really sound like freedom to you?

>>35022911
>using anything BUT jhp for self-defence

shiggydiggy do
you deserve what Tyrone does to you

5.6mm > 9mm

>>35022984
I don't own a .45, I own pistols in 9mm, 38 special, and 22lr. You're just a massive faggot.

9mm and 10mm are the only two relevant handgun cartridges.

Everybody else fuck off.

>>35023012
That's true. Kinda funny how those right wing militias ran their mouths about fighting tyranny all day when all was good and dandy, but in the moment the US is closer to an actual authoritarian state than ever, they pussy out and are nowhere to be seen.

>>35023084
>10mm
>relevant
>ever
Lmao it wasnt even important enough for the FBI to use it

>>35023091
That's not how you fight a tyrannical government this size of America.

>>35023091
>the US is closer to an actual authoritarian state than ever
Literally how

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>>35023092
That's because the FBI is comprised of limp wristed pencil pushers who don't understand quality when it looks them right in the face

>>35023084
this, mm family a best

[spoiler]their child, .357 sig, is also acceptable[/spoiler]

>>35023084
The only relevant handgun cartridges are 22, 9mm, and 44 mag. 44 mag/ special for all of your outdoor hunting/protection needs, 9mm for carry, and 22 for plinking. 380 or 38 special is acceptable for pocket/ backup pistols. All the other calibers are fine for range use/ competition (muh power factors yo!) but aren't really relevant.

>>35023092
Melanin-enhanced person of lesser mental acuity: where in the fuck, and under what circumstances do you think the .40S&W came about?

>>35023131
357 sig didn't descend from 10mm dummy

It's also equivalent to 9mm +p to +p+ as loaded by mainstream *cough reputable* ammo manufacturers.
Now that federal loads a good soft point (the 180 grain TB BC) at good velocity (1275), i think 10mm is finally a relevant choice for SD

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>>35022829
>better penetration
We're talking about people not bears hear. you shot placement fags no so little anatomy it's hilarious. Penetrating an extra 1-2" of back fat and skin isn't going to contribute meaningfully to incapacitation.

>MARIGNAL WOUND PATTERN DIFFERENCE
You type like a retard. that is not what wound pattern means and the difference is hardly marginal. Pic related.

>has better penetration 9mm is unironically better
9mm is unironically better at killing gel blocks. Ask anybody who cuts people open for a living and you'll get a different answer. Turns out that the testing medium that's only been proven to simulate hard tissue doesn't simulate what happens when bone gets hit.

What a surprise.

Link related:
http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm

>>35022879
>specifically select rounds that perform similarly instead of the best performers in each caliber
>comprised of multiple spliced together images that could have easily been altered
>even then some rounds clearly produced significantly more wound volume than others
Never understood why people think this proves anything

>>35023192
holy typos i wrote that too fast
>here
>know
>soft tissue

>>35023132

.44 Mag is for revolvers and revolvers only, which have their own considerations for cartridges.

10mm will do everything .44 mag does and it does it out of a semi auto.

.357 Sig is a pointless snowflake caliber that would be better named 9mm Fat Magnum. 10mm is superior.

>>35023092

If you use the US Government as a yardstick to measure the worth of things, you're a fucking retard.

>>35023311
Hold on faggot

44 magnum > 10mm
It's not even worth arguing about. Even with underwood (whose ammo is usually the culprit for kBed G20s) the numbers simply don't even compare. 10mm from a g20 is equivalent to a 41 mag out of a 4 inch barrel in loads under 200 grains.

>>35022867
.40short+weak > 9millishitter

>>35023438
Like i hate 9mm fags too, but this one is totally debatable.

.357 sig, .45, .357 mag, or 10mm and id agree with you.

>>35023311
>10mm will do everything .44 mag does and it does it out of a semi auto.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, FUCK NO IT WON'T.

Buffalo Bore type 10mm is BARELY capable of reaching the type of performance that normal .357 Magnum gives. 10mm is nowhere fucking close to .44 you loony toon motherfucker.

>>35023644
>Buffalo Bore type 10mm is BARELY capable of reaching the type of performance that normal .357 Magnum gives.
Not him but lol no. underwood 10mm and underwood .357 are fairly comparable

135gr @ 1600fps vs 125gr @1600fps
180gr@ 1250 vs 180gr @ 1300

.357 has a miniscule edge with heavy bullets and 10mm does the same with light. The difference in surface area probably means that they'll be slightly better at different tasks as well. IMHO .357 has a slight edge for deeper reliable pen and 10mm has a slight edge for quick energy transfer.

>10mm is nowhere fucking close to .44 you loony toon motherfucker.
They definitely aren't the same. .44 wins that fight hands down.

>>35023770
whoops, accidentally'd the 200gr numbers for 10mm instead of 180.

180gr 10mm is 1300 fps, the same as 180gr .357 mag.

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>>35022864

>>35023644
>>35023770

Not talking about energy you cock goblins.

10mm can be used in the same large game hunting applications that .44 can if you're the kind of mouth breathing redneck shit for brains that hunts with a handgun.

10mm is just as effective at woodland defense against dangerous animals, especially when accounting for a more easily carried firearm that can provide faster follow up shots with a larger capacity.

>>35023942
Didnt touch the whole "which is better for hunting/woodland defense" thing for a reason.

That being said, the .44 mag can offer ~60% more energy at the same weight and utilize significantly heavier rounds than the 10mm.

Everything else being equal it sure sounds better round per round to me.

Spose which is better in reality depends on whether 10mm is good enough for your uses or not and if having extra capacity means anything to you. Not being a big game hunter I can't really speak to the first part, and living outside of brown bear territory and near one of americas murder capitals the second part sure does sound nice.

IMHO sounds a lot like the 45 or maybe .357 vs 9mm argument, but applied to bears

>>35022879
But they all penetrate the same. Except you small .40, but you're a fag.

>>35023942
What's wrong with hunting with a handgun? It does the job fine.

>>35023942
>Not talking about energy you cock goblins
what do you want to play:

>ballistic pressure waves(BPW) can't cause injury
>Ballistic pressure waves are the same as low energy high duration pressure waves(aka "i can punch harder than that" argument)
>changes in homeostasis couldn't possible be cause by BPW
>there's no mechanism of mammal phsyiology that can cause rapid changes in your state of consciousness
You facklerfags are almost as bad as the rabid hydrostatic shock fanatics

>>35024160
Have to get pretty close due to short sight radius. Can't load anything in a rifle caliber that will be powerful enough to take all game down reliably from any angle (i.e. through bone).

Good backup though.

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>>35022879
just look at that .357 SIG cavity, you're basically shooting vaginas into gel and you know what that means

>>35023125
Because FUCK DRUMPF AND FUCK WHITE PEOPLE

>>35023165
It did though, didn't it? If not, what did it descend from? Maybe .40 s&w, but .357 sig has a slightly longer case length. It basically follows the same concept as 9x25 dillon, in this case being 9x22.

It is good to see more then just buffalo bore and a few others i'm not thinking of offer good 10mm ammo.

>>35023125
In many ways we have more freedom than ever, but the state has become a very dangerous obstacle to liberty.

this thread was a false flag created by me, OP

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>>35022829
.50 African Eliminator > 9 mememeter

You limp-dick pussy

Shoot a real gun.

>>35022879
>Wow, they're almost the exact fucking same
I'm getting so tired of shit like this,

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>>35026311
.75 Xenofucker > .50 Anal Enema

Shoot a bigger caliber, heretic.

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>>35026364
30x173mm > .75 Xenofucker

Shoot at real enemies, noob.

>>35026597
Nobody cares nigger stop spamming this shit

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>>35022829
Honestly it depends on the weapon that fires it.

>>35023091
You must be literally retarded.
The connection you've drawn is baseless and asinine.

And the direction we've been headed in only would have been solidified absolutely under Clinton 2.0.
Though I have my doubts that Trump will break the cycle, and even if he as an individual, did want to stop it, it's likely the press of the elites will crush him, either metaphorically to assure his capitulation, or in the multi faceted attack on him, his family and any allies he drums up in such a fight. As is the appearance if you don't instantly swallow the MSM talking points.
Or maybe it's all for show and we never had a chance at changing things from the top.

Tldr: you're an idiot, shut your hole

>>35023192
That morgue report still has me questioning getting a gen 5 19 or a classic 1911
.

Calibers that start in 4 punch through bone reliably

>>35022879
Look buddy. The human body has literally no part that has over a foot of continuous homogenous flesh. Ballistics gel is literally useless as an indicator of defensive performance.
Let's see some carcass testing, or you can fuck right off.

A lot of people itt shoot +p defensive ammo, but I heard most guns aren't actually rated for such hot loads. Isn't this dangerous?

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>>35022829
Not realizing 10mm is the optimal pistol cartridge. There's no argument against 10mm except I'm too fucking poor or weak wristed to handle it.

i despise .45fags, specifically 1911fags, but i live in fudd land. literally the biggest caliber is best. any handgun round below 45 is trash, small whitetail deer need a 30 cal round or it wont kill it.
>what is a well placed 20 call round
i fucking hate fudds

>>35027782
This.

>>35027820
This is the source of many glocknades

>>35023644
K .
that's a cool argument. but if I mag dump a 15rd magazine of buffalo bore that is ballistically close to 357 mag into a bear it will be dead before round 9. the next 6 rounds actually go back in time and kill his bear ancestors.

>>35027879
How do I know my gun can handle +p?

t. Soon to be hasgunz

>>35024573
...what? You wasted a lot of money for a marginal supposed edge in wound cavity which is dubious and closely mimicked by cheaper rounds out of cheaper guns? 357 sig is the next 45 GAP. Superfluous bullshit.

>>35027894
Read the details on manufacturers websites. You can try asking gunstore clerks but they tend to be poorly informed on many subjects.

Owner manuals will usually say also. If it doesnt say rated for +p, don't assume it is. And if its your first gun anyway, worry about getting the basics down with standard loads first. Flinching is harder to unlearn than to not develop in the first place.

>>35026311
No thanks I'm secure with my penis size but thank you.

>>35027894
you could look in the owners manual or call the actually company and ask. those would be my first two suggestions.

>>35027912
>poorfag this assmad
You're making some assumptions there desu

Enjoy having money for another few months when you live with this mindset. You obviously didn't earn your money at all or you would know how to spend it effectively. so dad must be psyched his kid is a moron wasting the money he earned.

>>35027919
>>35027921
So if the manual or the manufacturer does not explicitly recommend using +p you should rather stay away from it? I heard very few guns are actually rated for it.

>>35027937
>poorfag
THE quintessential SIGfag argument.

10mm makea much bigger holes, 45acp makes bigger holes too.

bigger holes = more loss of blood.

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>>35022829
>shooting 9mm gives you better groupings
Lol.

>>35028012
if the manufacturer themselves doesnt say it can handle it, then i wouldnt say you should shoot it. you could >probably get away with shooting +p every now and then, but there is a chance it will explode your handgun

>>35027937
Gotta defend that poor decision to the very end huh? You can admit you're wrong. People admire that more than defending your blatantly shortsighted, misinformed, decision to buy a gun chambered in an obsolescent cartridge. I own cheaper cartridge pistols and I guarantee I hit the range more and ring more steel than you ever will having to feed your meme gun

>>35022829
Usually an inferiority complex is caused by being inferior.

>>35022984
How's that permanent wound cavity size treating your anus?

>>35027853
The VIRGIN 9mm

The CHAD .45

>>35028032
You realize my gun is a glock and not a sig, right?
>>35028139
Defend nothing, kek. I think it's funny how agonized you are over a glock 32. Don't worry about me anon, I can afford to shoot that gun and others.

>>35027782

>The human body has literally no part that has over a foot of continuous homogenous flesh.
Have you ever seen an obese person?

>>35022864
all of them

>>35022829

But that's wrong. A standard pressure fmj round of 45 will penetrate deeper than 9mm.

>>35022984

But that's wrong, you can buy ammunition in either to get whatever penetration you'd like within the caliber's limits having varying amounts of expansion starting and ending at different depths. 45's upper limit is higher than 9mm.

>>35022952

Lol.

>>35023132

I'd trust 10mm or even flat nosed 40s&w for outdoors use

>>35023192

>Better penetration

Well if you don't care about collateral damage I'd rather the round pass out the other side and bleed them out faster. There's definitely a trade off point between penetration and expansion where wasted energy matters though.

>gel blocks

Yeah, you're right, it's meant to simulate a sternum for first 2-4 inches and soft tissue for the rest. It's still a great testing method even though t doesn't show bone deflection.

>>35023311

>10mm will do everything 44 magnum will do

It most certainly will not. It's adequate for a lot of the things 44 mag is commonly used for though.

>>35023770

You got it down on 357 vs 10mm. On some nicer 357s you can more safely over pressure your loads but before and after that they're not significantly different enough to matter. I like you.

>>35023942

Follow up shots are a cunt on an animal because if it didn't drop on the spot it's out running you.

>>35024097

Your opinion and comparisons are fair


I know this is a bait thread with a lot of shitposts but I'm having fun

>>35028852
Sure. Ever been attacked by one? Has ANYONE ever had to use deadly force on someone who was literally so far they couldn't walk?
Anon, I don't think you realise how fat someone would have to be to have a literal FOOT of fat protecting their vitals.

>>35022829
>MUH BELIFIES

the post

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>>35022879
>not posting the version that has 10mm in it.

10mm is the best round.

>>35027782
Thiiiis

>>35027894
Same way we find out if you are a witch, throw it in a deep pond and if it floats it can't handle +p because its light and weak.

>>35028047
Well he's not wrong anon. 9mm has less recoil than other rounds which = easier follow up shots and groupings.

>not using superior armor penetrating 5.7

>>35023311
Uh I'll take Desert eagle in .44 for 400

>>35027782
The chest does if you hit them under the arm.

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>this whole thread

>>35028979
>Yeah, you're right, it's meant to simulate a sternum for first 2-4 inches and soft tissue for the rest.
Yea, never understood the confusion about the whole "lol nobody is 12-18" thick argument.

IIRC the low end is literally 9"(average chest width) plus 3" for average forearm width to account for the fact that rounds often have to pass through them in gunfights before hitting the chest. 18" is an arm plus a quartering away shot through the chest and adding another 3" for the holding in effect of the back skin.

Not sure how these numbers hold up with bone involved though, the study used for validating BG as a medium compared gel shots to results from OIS incidents(guy was LEO with morgue access). Funny thing is the study, wolberg relevancy of BG if you haven't read it, specifically excluded all shots that hit bone.

Really gets the old noggin joggin. OTOH LEOs and those with LEO access seem to be pretty happy with the way rounds that perform well in gel perform in real life.

Questions is just how much to trust people who are very vested professionally in the matter and refuse to provide conclusive data to the public. Wouldn't exactly be the first time the feds were caught promoting bunk science to the public and other leos either...

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>>35022864

>>35027782
>>35027872
>>35029490
>I know more about terminal ballistics than terminal ballistics scientists
Wow you guys must be actual geniuses to figure that out, shoot the FBI an email and they'll probably reward you.

How are you that autistic

>>35030522
>guys
lol that's clearly the same anon.

Might even be the same one that always shows up in TB threads to say that same thing and then ignores any comment that proves him wrong while samefaggin continuously.

I'd be know, i personally shit up these kinds of threads all the time...

>>35030028

I love finding smart, studied people on /k/. All I have to offer from what you already know are opinions on what Ive read and seen.

I think that there isn't a refusal to give conclusive data because the data they have isn't that. Right now at least, I think gel stanards alone will be accurate enough not to be bothered much by bone and still get reliable, lethal results in most situations but I'd lean more toward 15 inch minimum depth. That depth tells me it still has enough momentum not to deflect excessively and not expand too rapidly to have issue penetrating if it left the arm and went toward a rib. If you hit rib, it's still going through and you're still getting some lung damage in and either way it wouldn't likely be an instant stop hitting lungs at any level of penetrating unless we were talking some postol rounds that might have thrown rib shards into the spine. Mostly for other anons reading now, I know you know and that we were just talking general deflection and what it does with expansion anon, there's a lot of variables involved between hitting one specific person's ribs, their forearm, their meat, their organs, or their clothes, what specific angle they were hit at, and what bullet was used at what speed. Different rounds of the same caliber are going to expand at different rates, deflect differently, and penetrate different depths. A particular 9mm that deflected off a rib might be sent into the spine where a 45 would have deflected differently and missed it or the opposite but most often the 45 will have the advantage on a singular hit for example. Stack all of those variables up and I dont think they can have conclusive results other than the obvious 45 will probably deflect less and make a more damaging hole at the cost of capacity and speed but even with the amount of real samples we have we don't know which is better.

I'm not ashamed to say I think 40 is a good caliber for general law enforcement for these reasons by the way.

>>35030615

Gd that was a long text wall, ignore it if it's annoying

>>35030615
We as civilians get to test in gel
Whereas cops if they shoot someone gets sent to the morgue and the results of the autopsy come back along with bullet characteristics and reports.

This constant stream of aftermath info is more indicative of how bullets actually respond to a human body, than a sterile testing of gelatin.

This explains why many departments still issue .40, as a pistol is the weapon they'll most likely be using primarily over the AR in the trunk.

.40 also has better auto window penetration and the flat nose is ideal for reliably hollowpoint expansion.

Departments with a large police force ex: NY is more likely to use 9mm for cost savings across the board. Similar to a car company using an inferior screw to save a few cents per car which leads to millions saved
A typical NY officer is also more likely to use their pistol less frequently than a highway patrol officer or a small town officer.

Military units are more likely to use 9mm (gign) because it is not their primary weapon, a rifle is. Therefore they go for capacity and cost savings as it is secondary to their rifle.

A cop is more likely to use his pistol, therefore there is less priority on capacity and cost and more priority on performance.

You be the judge

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm


>article of reports from a morgue

>>35023311
10mm is somewhere between .357 Magnum or .41 Magnum.

>>35030808
always loved that forum chain, but devil's advocate, did he ever even prove he worked at a morgue? otherwise the whole anonymous "expert" on the internet thing seems a little bit interesting

If the homosexuals that advocate the use of .45 ACP over 9x19mm were right. Why don't they use a .50 Action Express pistol or a .44 Magnum revolver. Since capacity is useless and only caliber counts, then at least pack something serious.

>>35030964
10mm is 6 to 800ft lbs, 41 mag is 6 to 1200ft lbs.

>>35023621
As far as gel tests and one shot stops, .40 beats 9mm, but not by much. I prefer it.

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>>35029453

>>35030808

Damn, I remember reading that a while back and this >35030982 being my big problem along with him saying it took more rounds of 9mm to kill because they were shot more times with it generalizing rounds and who did the shooting. If you have faster follow up shots you'll probably land more hits, if it's a gangster I can see them body checking people already down, using only the cheapest rounds, or just making poor hits in general.

I have the same reasoning on 40 but I've heard times that most didn't notice much difference in a good hit between it and 9mm but it was great for barriers. Sorry that most of my replies look rambly, phone posting sucks.

>>35027782
>>35027872
>>35029229

LOL HOLY SHIT!!! THESE IDIOTS THINK THAT THE BALLISITIC GEL TESTS ARE SUPPOSED TO REPRESENT A BODY INCH BY INCH LOL

HEY TARDS... WE ALL KNOW THAT ALL YA GOTTA DO IS GO THREE TO FOUR INCHES DEEP TO HIT A VITAL.

THE EXTRA INCHES OF PENETRATION TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION SKIN, MUSCLE, AND BONE.

>>35030992

>implying that the only guns that come in .45 are 1911s

Glock makes a subcompact like the g26 (albeit very little larger) that carries 10 rounds of .45

And their normal full sized glock 21 carries 13+1

Four less shots than the Glock 17.

Realistically speaking... do you think it you'll be in a situation where 14 45s couldn't do it but 17 9mms did?

Most common self defense scenarios end in a few shots before a mag even runs out. 5 or 6 .45 are better than 5 or 6 9mm.

I'm a pretty big guy who's lifts so recoil doesn't affect me at all unless I'm competing against a bunch of other pros

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>>35027782
It's an indicator of wound damage, just like the carcass you mong. If you want a "defensive scenario", you can even make the gel dummy models.

>>35031997
The g30 is more g19 sized, particularly with the typical extended baseplate magazine. Albeit the gun is shorter but the height is what matters the most in my experience.

>>35032097
So it's more a question of if there are situations where 10rnds of 45 would be less desirable than 15rnds of 9mm.

Personally i think there are very few of these and 10rnds is enough to handle almost all situations. Honestly for CCW 10rnds is literally where i personally think the diminishing returns of added rounds reaches the point where it should be considered a low priority.

That being said If i was in one of those rare instances where i had to deal with 2-3 armed attackers(but hardly unheard of) i could totally see the extra 5rnds coming in handy.

>>35030808
Lol cops don't do that much research, they go with whoever has the best salesmen and whatever company the acquisition person likes the most.

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>>35032052
>current year
>still using Hmong as an insult

Here's what I don't understand about stopping powah:
The people you're shooting aren't zombies. They will react psychologically to you shooting them, even if they aren't incapacitated physically. Just because a 45 makes a slightly larger wound than a 9mm, that doesn't meant they'll charge headlong into 9mm. People don't like getting shot.

>>35032540
Im kinda confused? are you saying that since people don't want to get shot and will typically try to avoid that there's no point in a more effective cartridge?

>>35033624
No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that there's no point in being paranoid about the effectiveness of a given bullet, since at the end of the day, they're still getting shot.

Like,
>what stoppin powah nerds think will happen:
"AY YO, THIS CRACKA ONLY SHOOTIN NINE! BUST HIS ASS UP!"
*cultural enrichment ensues as Tyrone and his gang shrug off puny 9mm*

>what actually happens:
"SHIIET, HE GOT A GUN! LETS GET OUT OF HERE!"
*they leave their friend bleeding in the gutter*

>>35034008
Oh, i see, then do you carry a .22lr pocket gun? I mean just showing a gun(let alone shooting at somebody) usually does the trick.

At that point why carry a 9mm when a .22, .380, or .38 is so much smaller/lighter.

All the 9mm really offers over the .380 is a little more penetration and an anecdotal reputation as a better antipersonnel cartridge. otherwise the .380 out classes it pretty handily

>>35032168
No I said mong. But alas for you, I will from now on refer to you as...

H-Mong.

>>35034223

You know damn well you're being hyperbolic.

>>35024573
>>35022829
So guys...

You ever fuck a ballistic gel wound cavity?

>>35030992
Because ideally you want a big bullet that you can comfortably shoot accurately

You can't get a quick double tap with .50 AE or .44 Mag

>>35037243
Only if you want lead and sharp jacket fragments in your dick

>>35024505
So you hunt everything with .458 Win Mag so you can take an elephant out through bone while out hunting boar? What a fucking retard.