Death of the Submachine Gun (SMG)

Literally happened ten years ago.

>>35019480

The SMG will live on for as long as we have Police forces, Anti Terror Units and Vehicle Crews. It may turn into a PDW or a Machine Pistol but it will keep going.

>>35019603
I'm pretty sure it's going to get killed by SBRs.

>>35019614

They lack the full auto control an SMG has. And when it comes to room clearing without frag grenades the SMG has no equal.

>>35019614
SMGs still beat SBRs for size, besides the fact that pistol rounds stabilize better out of a short barrel in the first place.

>>35019652
Eh, did you see SIG's new MCX? It's the same size as the MP5K and has a folding stock.

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>>35019531
What the fuck is the deal with Americans calling U-variant AK's Krinkovs?

>>35019707
Wish I could tell ya, I'm American and I don't even fucking know.

>>35019614
>implying SBRs are a recent innovation
SBRs have been around for 50 years. If they were fount to replace SMGs it would have happened already. Clearly they both have value.

>>35019707
I dunno, it sounds cool. Why's a Draco called such? Because it sounds cool

>>35019704

>Same size as an MP5K
Source, the MP5K is as short as 340mm. And even if it is that tiny something tells me the recoil is not pleasant on a gun so small.

Thanks op

>>35019742
what recoil? do you mean muzzleflash?
>why do people think short rifles generate more recoil?

>>35019814

>Less mass on the gun to mitigate the recoil
>Why would it have more recoil?

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>>35019742
Not him but here's the pic. 5.5in barrel. It's in .300Blk so not completely retarded, that still gets a large chunk of it's velocity at 5.5 and is delivering more energy than 9mm would. Still a hair larger than MP5. Would be nice with a near-90-degree AR grip and short stock.

>>35019824

Now I wonder how horrible it would be to handle with a fun switch.

>>35019821
negligible with a stock and grip, compared to a handgun. barrel length loss doesnt do a whole hell of a lot for pushback but that fireball is a cunt

>>35019840

Haha you've never shot both an SBR and an MP5 in full auto. I have and the 5.56 SBR is not bad for recoil but there's no comparison to a 9mm MP5.

>>35019480
Thanks for the scans op

>>35019854
never shot an mp5, fullfun or otherwise. But it doesnt matter what you say, 5.56 out of an 8"barrel will give you a tan and a possible concussion a lot faster than 9mm out of a 5" barrel

the loss of velocity due to unburnt powder means less energy delivered to the weapons gas system/bolt thrust. this means less recoil imparted on the shooter

>>35019480
I don't think the SMG is dead. Rifles with SMG length barrels perform pretty poorly because rifle cartridges aren't designed for use in that barrel length.

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>>35019480
thanks for sharing these scans OP

>>35019953
poorly compared to rifle length barrels maybe, they're still guaranteed to shit on any pistol caliber with some appropriate twist.

>>35019707
Supposedly, during the Soviet-Afghan war, Mujahideen captured a Russian Colonel by the name of Krinkov, and he was carrying an AKS-74U when he was captured.

>>35019960
I just think ultra-short rifles are s stupid concept IMO, I'd rather have a submachine gun at that point.

>>35019967
I'm a fan of the pistol carbines, too. Longer barrels are always going to be better. I personally really like the aesthetics of a lot of SMGs but I dunno any of the mechanics that aren't either open bolt or some mini-rifle mechanics anyway.

>>35019960

>they're still guaranteed to shit on any pistol caliber with some appropriate twist.
Maybe for civie use, but if you have full tard available a full auto SMG beats a full auto SBR at CQC.

>>35020043
ehhh not really? SBRs are fine for CQC. There's only gonna be a really really minor difference compared to an SMG anyway.

>>35019957
how do I fuck her pls answer quick

>>35019840
>topic is about comparing SMGs and SBR
>decides to mention handguns when talking about recoil
Way to move the goalpost there buddy

>>35019622
A short carbine in 5.56 has minimal recoil in automatic fire.

>>35019948
No.

>>35020101
what, are you on mobile so you cant see what I'm replying to? what fucking goalpost?
I mention handguns with regards to weight affecting recoil impulses.

>>35019957
>tfw chicks with bigger arms than you

I need to start lifting again.

>>35019519
>a complete manufacturing facility buidling the finest rifles
>buidling
i hope their machinists are sharper than their proofreaders

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>>35020222
>trips of haughty derision
I agree. I SINCERELY doubt they'd be any better than any other new-age AR builder.

>>35019480
If it still kills,what makes it obsolete?

>>35020281
Probably the high-cost and parts-uniqueness when compared to AR carbine variants and clones.

>>35019513

Seriously, this. The M4 carbine alone can do basically anything an SMG does but far better. The only thing it's not the best at is cqc but even then it's not really a problem when 30+ round mags are standard.

In perspective, the SMG was really a weapon built for the Cold War. Cheap, rugged and extremely reliable it could be sent anywhere on the planet and used by any random militia group the host country had decided to support. Since the Cold War is over, that context no longer exists as now private companies can just buy land and move in, who will always arm themselves with intermediate carbines to ensure they aren't ever outgunned by locals.

Back at home the whole "gangster" thing has faded away and with it the allure of driving by a house and spraying it with fully automatic fire. This is especially true when any gangster with brains will just build an AR instead of bothering with an NICS check. Which is why gun grabbers have turned to ammo sales.

>>35019480
>Manufacturers not trying to bank on home defense potential.
Start a company that wants to make them perfect for HD.

>>35020281

Cheap SMGs are fucking shit, mid tier SMGs are more expensive than their regular pistol counterparts and high end SMGs are more expensive than alternatives chambered in larger calibers. There's not much of a place for them unless you need to arm a lot of people very quickly, which hasn't been the case since the 1950s at the latest.

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>>35020324

already exists

>>35020192
Not wanting to be a qt 3.14 twink. Are you some kind of fag?

>>35020340
>Retard pump actions
How about no.

>>35019707
afghan war slang from mujahadeen who couldnt pronounce words due to birth defects from severe inbreeding and lol russian names.

and SOLDIER OF FORTUNE magazine.

>>35020344
Even if I did I am far too hairy to ever be anything but a bear.

>>35019483
>MP-18
>what is the OVP.

>>35020314
>The M4 carbine alone can do basically anything an SMG does but far better.
It even does overpenetration better, so it's wonderful to use inside buildings, ships, or crowds.

>>35019840
Take your own advice, just put a stock and a grip on an SMG.

>>35020615
overpenetration is a meme

>>35020615
>he fell for the overpenetration meme

>>35020633
talking about an SBR, here m8

>>35020615

If overpenetration is a problem use subsonic ammo or frangible rounds:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1001907079/fiocchi-frangible-ammunition-223-remington-45-grain-sinterfire-wide-taper-point-lead-free-box-of-50

If it's -still- a problem drop to all the way to 22lr like the IDF does for riot control.

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>>35019480
>>35019483
>>35019497
>>35019508
>>35019519
>>35019531
>>35019544
>>35019554
>>35019563
>>35019577

>Actually reading gun clips
>paying to get advertised to

>>35020645
>>35020640
Since a ND with a 7,62 went through three decks on the ship I was on, yes, definitively.

What's the difference in effective range between a full-sized SMG (like an MP5 or an Uzi) and a 5.56 SBR?

>>35020314
>Back at home the whole "gangster" thing has faded away and with it the allure of driving by a house and spraying it with fully automatic fire. This is especially true when any gangster with brains will just build an AR instead of bothering with an NICS check. Which is why gun grabbers have turned to ammo sales.
Wow. Please never speak on gang activity again in your entire life.

>>35020693

I work in Compton and have seen the stupid gang shit deteriorate as everything gentrifies. Mexicans are more into over the top cowboy guns (tacticool levergats, "gold" spray painted revolvers, engraved 1911s etc) then MGs. Music has become soft too, Tupac died over twenty years ago. The only gangs that have manged to survive this far are ones who are smart enough to build their own ARs and trash the barrels/bolts when they're done.

>>35019622
the difference in recoil between a 5.56 sbr and an SMG isn't really that much, especially if the SMG is straight blowback. The rifle action has a lot less mass wobbling about. A delayed blowback SMG is better, but there's not many of those available, mostly the Mp5, and those aren't selling like they did decades ago.

>>35019721
It's been happening.

Who buys new SMGs? Police have been moving to carbine and SBR AR-15s for some time now.

What was the last US military SMG, the Grease gun A1?

>>35020665
>clips

It's a periodical, you mong.

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>>35019483
>italians invented the SMG
>they planned to use it as an AA gun
Oh Italy.

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>>35020688
I made these two quickly in the vortex lrbc.
The difference in energy and drop is huge.

>>35019961
Which actually never happened

>>35020076

Get the lube so it hurts less when she penetrates you.

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>>35020790

Where are these numbers coming from?
Assuming similar barrels (5"), your numbers are off for 5.56. BBTI puts a 55gr going at 1900-2000fps. With the attached energy.

>>35020919
the person I was replying to said full size so I did 10.5 inch barrels. There is also a large difference between 75 grain and 55 grain 5.56.
9mm velocity was from bbti

75 grain was from posts in this thread
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?38754-Ballistics-on-a-10-5-quot-barrel

>>35020946
I double checked so I wouldnt be relying on some random forum post and according too http://www.hornadyle.com/products/rifle-ammunition/556-nato/75-gr-bthp-t2-tap
my 5.56 velocity should have actually been around 100 fps higher based on the " 10.5" Noveske® CQB 1:7" entry

>>35020790
Thanks, mate!

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>somebody finally realizes that sabots are the future, creates cartridge that necks .40 S&W to .30 or .32 with .22 sabot
>50+ grains at 3000+ fps from something like pic
>5.56 is made obsolete

Thread is built on the premise of the SMG "dying" when it has always been getting murdered by the AOW/SBR tax stamps or Hughes Ammendment. You can guarantee that if none of those existed that the civilian market for SMGs would be much larger than it is today, and also help to drive costs down for making them.

Being as it is, restricted basically to police, swat, bodyguards, and special forces, SMGs are niche weapons.

>>35020860
Underrated post

>>35020731
this
I lived in Flint for a decade, up until about 3 years ago
there were lots of shootings, some a few blocks from my house, but it was all close-range, semi-auto, and only as many rounds as they needed, not clearing out a whole fucking house

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>>35019577
>IS THE SMG FINALLY DEAD? The answer: No.

well then why the fuck did you make me read all that assholes

>>35021615
B-but it's informative, anon.

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>>35021459
This, SMGs would be ideal defensive weapons for the average Joe, quiet, controllable, cheap, cheap ammo, simple, reliable, compact, etc. if they were never banned I imagine you could buy knockoffs of pic for as much as a cheap pump shotgun.

>>35019603
Also for as long as we have criminals and home gunsmiths, because right after a single shot, they're about the safest and easiest to build.

>>35021854
and 3A soft armor would be sold in rolls by the mile

niggers would do a lot more property damage

>>35019707
Best theory I have heard is it is the result of a Soldier of Fortune article which bastardized an Afghani nickname for the short variant AKs.

>>35021854
i wish they made hte uzi in 45 acp or more extotic cartridges I recently handled it and was in love I get why people like them so much

>>35024141
They did make it in 45 acp - i've shot one. The fire rate is strangely slow.

>>35019513
>ten
I think twenty is the number you're looking for. AT LEAST. They've been making short intermediate caliber rifles since the late 90's for the purposes of CQB, and in using one, you're getting more versatility and >>35019480 and>>35020314 should also listen to this closely, as you all might like what I have to say on the subject, versatility is KING when you have applications where the tool is crudely applied or applying more specialized tools only net you a small benefit that is far outweighed by the versatility. In machine shops, typically you'll only see about three cutters used for turning work pieces. This is for exactly the reason I just mentioned. Sure a W or whatever carbide turning insert might work better than a T or an R insert might last longer, but in the end, you'll still have to make shoulders which the W doesn't lend itself to as well and the R will leave a quarter inch radius as well as requiring a very rigid setup, preventing it from making shoulders entirely. The message here, before I start sperging more on machining, is that an SMG only does a few very niche jobs better than an intermediate rifle to enough of a benefit that they're worth choosing over a rifle anymore, and so, for the broader number of uses of an intermediate rifle, standardization of training for a platform, and the overall lack of benefit in most applications over an intermediate caliber rifle, I believe the SMG is just about dead as a concept of weapons design.

>>35021590
Seems like they'd only be good for drive-bys anyway and I haven't heard of one of them in ages.

>>35021615
The answer was always: yes.

it's only dead because the NFA never allowed it to flourish.
fuck congress
fuck feds

>>35025238
this. just imagine what anti-recoil developments would have come about if automatic weapons were not so badly restricted.

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That magazine looks like baiting trash. Are all gun magazines like this nowadays?

>>35021459

I'm doubtful. Even if all guns were banned PDs and militaries would have moved away from the SMG. The civ market wouldn't ever have bought them much because they're huge compared to a pistol and underpowered compared to a hunting rifle.

>>35021854

The average joe wants something that can go into his pocket like a hi-point or baby browning.

>>35025311
Sure, but I was talking home defense. Right now someone looking for a home defense gun will likely buy a shotgun, and many people have trouble with their recoil and heft. Carbines are sold too, but being closed bolt and semi auto they're limited in practicality.

>>35025360

The best SMGs (as in ones most likely to see mass adoption if all gun control was gone) are closed bolt and most people will fire semi auto because they can't take it on full. A glawk has the same capacity (about 15-20 rounds) but can fit into a drawer or large pocket. People would either be buying garbage (open bolt) or they'd be buying something oversized for their needs.

Although I'll qualify my argument and note that, if all gun control were gone, all glawks would be select-fire by default. So in that sense you are right, but only because the SMG in question would take the form of a pistol.

>>35021373
>6.5x25
decades of slavshit made relevant again

>>35025401
>The best SMGs are closed bolt
Their improved accuracy doesn't matter for home defense (the vast majority of people don't practice enough for it to matter), and people would prefer lighter handier API blowback guns.
>A glawk has the same capacity
Most subguns use thirty round mags. Yes they're available for a Glock, but they don't have stocks or practical full auto to utilize them.
>garbage (open bolt)
Oh I see, this is bait.
>all glawks would be select fire
It would be an option, and not one used by many with it's ridiculous rate of fire.

>>35025424
6.5 CBJ is autistic unfortunately, tungsten is too expensive, the round is too small to be effective without the sabot and it doesn't even fragment on impact. With a .22 lead slug you reduce costs, improve performance and make it viable with full caliber projectiles.

>>35025528
m885 in sabot would be a good load

>>35025528
>and people would prefer lighter handier API blowback guns.
you mean YOU would prefer blowback guns

>>35025793
I'm saying there are several advantages to API blowbacks for home defense compared to closed bolt, with no relevant disadvantages. Of course people would prefer that.

>>35025528

>Their improved accuracy doesn't matter for home defense (the vast majority of people don't practice enough for it to matter), and people would prefer lighter handier API blowback guns.

Yes but they're going to be more reliable and less shit to handle overall. They would naturally dominate the market as most people who want SMGs would be buying them. This is especially true when factoring in select-fire guns like a Glock.

>It would be an option, and not one used by many with it's ridiculous rate of fire.

If you don't want maximum bullet you're not getting an SMG in the first place. You defeated your own argument.

>>35020599
be her little teddy bear

>>35026384
>they're going to be more reliable
and why would that be?
>less shit to handle
what does that even mean?
>select fire guns like a Glock
I was comparing closed bolt and open bolt blowback guns, that would be far cheaper than a Glock.
>If you don't want maximum bullet
You're fucking retarded, 900+ RPM is useless and dangerous in the hands of an average person, especially in a pistol, while slower rates still provide much more firepower than semi auto.

>>35021373
The dream. It's like mass effect, shooting sand grain size projectiles at crazy speeds.

>>35026682
yeah yeah, until everyone gets some kind of electromagnetic forcefield and it turns into dune
>the slow blade pierces the shield

>>35019480
One day mega city warfare will be a thing, and ammunition SIZE will be just as big of a deal as WEIGHT.
And in that day, rounds like 7.62 Tokerev and 5.7x28 will quietly come back while you retards argue wether we should replace the M16A9 and M4A7E2 with new fancy ceaseless rifles and implanted optics.

SMGs will never die; they will only fade into the background of military service while the US and others are fighting in wide open sandboxes and don't have a huge need for the likes of 15 mags/soldier.

I fucking swear ultra light machine Guns will one day be seen, and these threads will be shoved under the rug.

>>35024130
>>35019707
Apparently Afghans have issues with pronouncing "Kalashnikov" and started calling them "Krashnikov" or "krashkov" or other bastardizations. "Krinkov" happened to catch on for some Americans.

>>35019480
Yeah, Im sure when WW3 breaks out and most battles will be house to house combat, SMGs will suddenly be back, while the assault rifle will quietly fade back into obscurity where it belongs.

>>35024141
It was and they're common.

>>35020340
Wait, what the fuck is this? A box mag on the pump? Does it take from the mag instead of the tube and then from the tube when the mag is empty?

>>35029823
If I had to guess I would say the magazine feeds directly into the tube? Probably something angling the shells back so upwards spring pressure is forcing it onto the elevator. The mag doesn't look like it's fed exactly vertical.

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>>35024141

They do. You can also buy a 9mm Uzi and simply swap the bolt, barrel & magazine out for the same items but in 45 ACP. Shit's cash, nigga.

I like 9mm though, it's a lot cheaper to shoot.