Have intermediate cartridges made the submachinegun obsolete?

Maybe in a military capacity. They're still good for police work.

>>35011044
kevlar body armor did.

No, they still had the crew purpose of being a heli-pilot's arm as well as a tanker crew weapon. Great for close range since most Intermediate Rifles weren't small enough and were too expensive to field consistently for the cost at the time. Now the subgun is "obsolete" in a military setting, but is still widely used for police use and VIP security details.

Consider that an M3 Submachine gun would cost $15 ($34.83 in 1972 and $203 in 2016) and a CAR-15 would easily stretch into the $200-$300 range (I couldn't find documentation, I'm going off of rough estimates of value, but the inflation from 1972 to 2016 would be $1435.45). Which at that point, that's a LOT of money for every tanker, truck driver, and other positions where an SMG would fill. SubGuns filled a niche that was perfect for their low cost. With modern short rifles catching up, they're "obsolete" in the modern military sense, but they still have purpose for LEOs and Security (as I stated above)

M3s we're still in Abrams through GW1 so no

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When we finally win and federal gun laws are rolled back to WWI era, my HD gun will be a new production mini Uzi. Instead of monotonous screeching, my burglar alarm will blast the following through the surround sound speakers in the living room. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLuf8rJAbyY

>>35011044
No, they completely revolutionised and made them much better, now we have the P90 and MP7

>>35011510
I think it depends on what cartridge. A 5.56 subgun wouldn't be very controllable without some janky designs, the m16s already have a problem with accurate full auto. It was common practice to basically aim at the target's dick so all three burst rounds would hit.

I'm not sure 5.7 is considered an intermediate round either.

>>35011368
Same as this guy, but with a reverse stretch 5K and a Kraftwerk outfit.

>>35011044
You can silence intermediate cartridges and use subsonic ammo. But it'll never be quiet as an m3 with silencer that fires naturally subsonic .45 acp

>>35011561
At that point you've just turned an intermediate cartridge into a pistol cartridge in terms of KE

>>35011044

Yes.

It doesn't make them unfun to shoot, or less deadly, but they are rendered entirely obsolescent by intermediate caliber SBR's and PDW weapons if you're talking about arming someone with a new production weapon.

>>35011044
submachine guns were made obsolete not by intermediate cartridges but by nuclear bombs, no super powers want to start another major World War type of conflict if they'll likely face being destroyed in retaliation.

thus it makes no sense to build cheap (material/labor) weapons that fire low power rounds to arm a large percentage of the population to fight in a resource and technology limited conflict.

this is why I believe we'll see shit getting brought back out of mothballed status in a WW3 event and old production lines being restarted long before we'll start mass producing 2-3million dollar tanks on a scale that will matter

ie. what the germans did during WW2 producing "super tanks" when they needed to simplify production lines which was what the E-series was all about and it came WAY too late to do a thing to solve their issues

>>35011510

>P90 and MP7
Meme and memer

>>35011603
220gr 300 BLK is about 100 fps faster than 230gr .45 ACP out of a submachine gun.

smg's were obsolete by the time they hit the frontlines in 1918

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>>35011159

>>35011044
Yes, aside from suppressed applications. You can get a rifle in 5.56x45 or 7.62x51 that is more compact than any submachinegun and the 5.56 will have roughly comparable recoil.

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>>35011044
No, advances in body armor and bullet design have made submachine guns obsolete. When even combat shirts will soon provide protection against pistol ammunition (the US Army's ballistic combat shirt that will go into service soon has NIJ IIIa protection over the upper arms, shoulders, and neck, see pic related) and you can get rifle ammunition that can still fragment while maintaining adequate penetration from a 7.5" barrel (the new 5.56x45mm M855A1), there's not much point in using pistol ammunition. The only way that subguns are still relevant is if you need something machine pistol size or you need subsonic performance but only within 50-100 yards (in which case a subgun will perform just as well as .300 BLK options).

>>35014298
First of all, is there any evidence of that ammunition being capable of penetrating a kevlar vest? I have yet to see any information about its capabilities. Second of all, you still need specialized ammunition to effectively engage the enemy while someone armed with a rifle doesn't.

>>35011178
unless economy of scale like the subgun enjoyed is reached by intermediate rifles, I agree with you. As it is however, when you can fill that roll for the same price with an intermediate rifle that's more versatile, will penetrate most if not all soft body armor, and has a greater range in both the distance that the gun can be shot effectively AND the number of situations in which it is suitable, I think it's just about obsolete for all but the smallest niches.

>>35011535
>Implying something isn't good because it's popular
go back to plebbit you hipster trash

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Any short barreled, folding stock rifle can easily replace an SMG now.

They're good for cheap plinking / as starters for new users but not much else.

>>35015162
What mental gymnastics did you do to come to this conclusion? The word "Popular" wasn't even used before you got in here.

>>35011561
>an 8" .300blk with a mid-level screw-on or QD can is 3-4 dBA quieter than an MP5SD3 with ported barrel and humongous integral suppressor
You're wrong friend

>>35015119
There is the added benefit of training on an M16 and an M4 is much easier than training on an M16 and an MP5. The former is basically the same gun twice. The later is a headache.

>>35011603
And yet they still provide significantly bigger wound channels and natural ability to penetrate soft armor thanks to their high sectional density and small pointy frontal area.

A standard 220gr SMK .300blk load with a MV of 1050fps will penetrate a new lvl IIIA vest at 85 meters. A standard 230gr FMJ .45acp with a MV of 950fps (roughly an 8" barreled SMG, like the UMP) will not penetrate a new lvl IIIA vest at 1 meter.

>>35015438
>>an 8" .300blk with a mid-level screw-on or QD can is 3-4 dBA quieter than an MP5SD3 with ported barrel and humongous integral suppressor
You forgot to specify that the MP5SD is a decades old design, and suppressors have advanced quite a bit since then.

>>35011561
Suppressed 45 is loud as fuck, nocans.

>>35011044
Yes. With a versatile enough gas system you can use a cartridge like .300 blk and have equivalent or superior ballistic performance with equivalent suppression(if not better than some SMGs). the same gun can then offer improved range and effect on target with supersonic rounds.

Only reason for SMGs are that they're neat, can share ammo with handguns(not that big a deal), and the designs already have a lot of momentum.

Functionally speaking there is essentially no advantage to a SMG for serious work, and certainly none that out weigh the negatives

>>35011044
In terms of application?
For most uses, yes, though only in a modern military with the current environments we are facing (if you're a burger)

But I dare you to fit seven STANAG mags in the same space that seven MP5 style mags will (or any SMG for that matter)

The SMGs have lighter recoil, and smaller ammunition, and as a bonus for police, less penetration unless specifically designed to have the penetration you want.
If they were legal for regular civilians like us to have without the awfulness that is the Hughes amendment, I believe that SMGs would be the go to gun for home defense.

If things do truly come to mega city combat, I foresee such bastardry as ultra light machine Guns (belt fed SMGs to keep up sustained fire for longer), battle rifle style use of assault rifles, and mass issuance of SMG/PDWs.
When capacity trumps distance and accuracy, pistol cartridges akin to 7.62 Tokerev and 5.7x28 are the winners.