Choose a new round to replace the 5.56x45mm in standard NATO

>>34960844
excellent choice m8

>>34960844
22-250 with a ap projectile.
4000+fps here we come

Real fucking NATO

>>34960844
6.5x39 reigns supreme

>>34960844
5.45x39 /k/omrade

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>>34960844
30 AR

Don't need to replace 5.56. Need to replace shitty usgi mags and m4 magwells so can fit 90 grain sierra 5.56 projectile in magazine. Will give you more range than 308.

.22 Nosler

12mm

>>34960844
6x51

.22LR

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.458 win mag

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.338 Lapua for everyone

gotta penetrate that body armor

>>34961088
a .338 lapua belt-fed DMR would be pretty NATO

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>>34961115
exists

>>34960844
.277 Wolverine doesn't really offer up enough benefits over 5.56 for military adoption. It's pretty stretched except with the stumpy 6.8 bullets that are light-for-caliber, so it wouldn't have the space to handle a longer, lead free bullet. Velocities aren't really anything to write home about, either.

>>34960844
5.56x45mm

>>34960844
What's wrong with .308 again?

>>34961222
Weight. Recoil for some. Not really any better at defeating advanced armor. It's not a good replacement for 5.56 as a standard round -- which is why 5.56 replaced it in the first place.

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How the fuck are you guys not rock hard from this?

>>34961244
I'm reading about it now, apparently it has better penetration than 5.56 which makes it less lethal because it just punches right through targets.

What sort of advanced armour are we talking here?

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>>34961244
>Not really any better at defeating advanced armor

the #1 reason we use 5.56 over real fuckin nato is weight and capacity

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>>34960948
>5.56 anything
>More range than .308

>>34961281
>>34961283
Ceramic plates. Outside of tungsten tips/cores, ceramic plates do a good job stopping both rounds. There's not a great case for mass issuing .308.

>>34961281
The Army is worried that the Russians are going to field everyone with class IV body armor (even though the Russians are fucking broke, but whatever)

so they're going to a new service rifle in 7.62

even though 7.62 won't penetrate class IV

because the US military acquisitions system is deeply broken and all of the senior officers are dangerously incompetent

on the bright side the program will probably get cancelled in six months

>>34961315
Wouldn't the same plates stop 5.56 then?

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>>34960844
300 blackout.

Bigger bullet, only changes to guns are new uppers, everyone gets a suppressor

>>34961244
I'm wondering why bother with new calibres when M855A1 is the new AP hotness? M80A1 is bigger, heavier, defeats armor similarly, why bother with new service calibres? Don't get me wrong, I still want AP snowflake calibres to compete too. I'd either have to load 6.5 Grendel hot and hope heavy buffer spring/adjustable gas system won't kill AR or gotta mold own bullets and load hot too in order to be AP.

>>34961315
>Outside of tungsten tips/cores
>>34961326
>7.62 won't penetrate class IV

so issue AP with tungsten cores

5.56 isn't heavy enough for that shit

>>34961334
It says just that in the post you're replying to.

>>34961336
300 blackout is a specialty round and makes no sense as a general issue

>>34961340
because there's no reward for keeping something that isn't broken

you need to execute on a new program and visibly change something in order to get noticed and promoted

even if that change is unnecessary

>>34961263
That already exists you dunce. Its called 300 memeout

>>34961344
Tungsten is not viable for mass issuance. Too expensive, too important for other industrial applications, and the overwhelming majority of the world's supply comes from China. Cross it off your list.

>>34961346
So the upgrade is just gov't fuckery?

>>34961360

use steel then, professor

whatever AP we already have is enough

>>34961356
cant get that all that bribe money if there is no one to bribe

>>34961375
couldn't you make it like a tracer.
every 5th round is ap.
would field less but still be general issue.

>>34961367
Every single defense acquisitions program since the cold war ended has been government fuckery

We've been in the fuckery zone for so long we can barely remember what a non-fucked program looks like

>>34961375
>use steel then, professor
Yes, that's the idea and that's what the EPR rounds use. They don't reliably punch through ceramic plates, though. And that's the point I'm making about a 1-for-1 swap to .308. You're not adding as much capability as people think.

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>>34961358
Its not as wide! Powder burn is more efficient in wider cartridges so thats why you can have a smaller/lighter cartridge with a wide base that's just as effective as what it's replacing.

30 ar is about the same weight as 300 meme but has more powder so it's almost as good as 308 and with a 6.5 bullet it would be even better.

30 Ar is based on 450 bushmaster brass while 300 blackout is based on plain jane 223.

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Why not guided airburst projectiles with thermobaryic warheads?

Make .416 Barrett new standard.

>>34960844
.280 British

.375 H&H

>>34961412
sure, yeah, let's join the $1000 per round club

just lemme buy some Raytheon stock first

>>34961400
>>34961389
>>34961375
>>34961360
>>34961344
>>34961340
>>34961334
>>34961326
>>34961315
>>34961283
>>34961281
>>34961244
>>34961222
Alright so we want a round with similar weight to, or an acceptable upgrade from, 5.56 REAL FUCKIN NATO, with AP capacity in some form.

I like the idea of >>34961389 with AP rounds every 5th in a mag, or maybe every 3rd or something. I'm not sure on the modern effectiveness of, or training for, 3 round bursts anymore but whatever.

Points for the possible round:
>Already in use is a bonus
>AP capability that defeats Tier IV ceramic reliably
>Acquirable, not cost prohibitive like Tungsten
>Equal or greater range than 5.56

Let me hear them suggestions, /k/
Or just invent a new round

>>34961545
dont ceramic plates crack and lose there protective properties after a few rounds?
unlike steel.
3 non ap rounds might be all it takes.

>>34961326
That's why the army said they're developing a new round to defeat lvl4 and higher.

Problem is the general or colonel or whoever questioned by congress said the boolit can be made for 762 or 556 and used in M4s, so other than corruption within the army there's no reason we should need a new rifle.

>>34961574
I guess the idea is hit them with less bullets for a kill

>>34961574
it's a lot more than 'just a few' tho. it's like a pickaxe digging a hole. of course the company will tell you to buy new ones but you'll be fine for a while with a shot or two in your plates. you'd have to damn near stack rounds on top one another to punch through.

>>34961545
Multi-part idea here:
1) use the trillion or so rounds of 5.56 that we already have
2) continue using 5.56
3) buy up some fancy tungsten-cored 7.62 and a few (not many) rifles to shoot it (something off the shelf, SCAR-H or HK417) and then keep them in a warehouse and issue them only when we get in a fight with an adversary that equips everyone with class 4 body armor
3b) which will be never

There, I saved a hundred million dollars, you're welcome

>>34960844
243 Winchester.

>>34961149
I think it is chambered in .338 Norma magnum, shorter and wider cartridge.

>>34961620
>trillion of 5.56
Maybe we're looking in the wrong place, maybe we don't need a new round maybe we need a new gun

Some space magic shit like the G11 or AN-94 where a burst puts more bullets downrange with the same accuracy, or that Double-AR that fires two bullets at once.

>>34960844
Replacing 5.56 would be pretty dumb.

>>34961326
>so they're going to a new service rifle in 7.62

Except they are not.

>>34961344
Tungsten core 5.56 will go through class IV armor.

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>>34960844
6.5 cbj

7.62*54R because fuck it.

>>34960844
CTSAS, either in the long 6.5mm under development, or in a new PDW caliber optimized for penetration and behind-armor effects <400m.

>>34961772
>pistol

>>34961791
>>34961772
>pistol sabot

>>34961772
CBJ achieved its results with a tungsten core. No tungsten and it's just a pistol round.

.22 Eargesplitten loudenboomer

>>34960844
We shouldn't be sticking to AR mag length, or even brass cartridges.
.277 Wolverine and .25-45 Sharps are my favorite AR boutique rounds however. The wide selection of 80 to 120gr bullets is pretty fantastic.

>2017
>Not using based 6.5 Swede for main battle rifle
>Not using based 6.5 Grendel for Carbine/SMG

>>34961925
>picking a cartridge with a wider base, requiring either larger magazines, or lower mag capacity
6.5 Grendel belongs in an AK, not in an AR.

>>34961872
>We shouldn't be sticking to AR mag length
srs we need like an AR-12.5

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.25 York
It is flatter shooting than the 6.8 and supersonic 125 yds further out

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>>34960844
5.7x45.
5.56 round with long ogive bullet similar to 7N6. Reverse compatible with 5.56x45.

>>34961942
Find me a 5.56 equivilant that loads up to a 180gr projectile, and kick it out at up to 2300fps. Once you do that, we can talk poodleshooting rounds.

6 . 5 G R E N D E L
.
5
G
R
E
N
D
E
L

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>>34962169
>2300fps

>>34962186
>not just making an insanely thick 5.56 with C4 propellant

>>34960844
Isn't the US Army looking at introducing a new cartridge in the 6-6.5mm range?

>>34961942
Carbines aren't just "scaled down rifles". They're not supposed to be used for the same application as a full rifle (a fact that the DOD has forgotton, which is why infantry units in Afghanistan haven't been getting the kill count they should be). Carbines are for short-medium distance engagements (no more than 2/3 the mad range of the cartridge) by troops that are either highly mobile (and thus need to save on weight) or are in cramped quarters (i.e tank crews) who need to minimize space useage. MechInf, Leg units and garrison troops need a full-sized rifle to engage the enemy at maximum effective range.

>>34962206
>>34962186
Also note that the 6.5 Grendel was for carbine/smg, not AR/battle rifle.

>>34961545
Don't forget, different rounds have different trajectories. Within 200 yards, no big deal, but you start shooting out to longer range, this makes a big difference. Having every third round be something different would be a nightmare when trying to make a precision shot.

I could see this strategy working for some troops on patrol in a city, who only expect to be shooting at targets 200 yards and in, though.

>>34961574
Yes, most ceramic plates will shatter after a few rounds, although the newer designs are made up of many smaller ceramic plates combined into one, so that they are more segmented and they can last a bit longer. However, the consensus is that no one is going to stand around and get hit 2 or more times in the same armor plate. If your enemy is shooting at you that much, a round will probably hit you somewhere the plate isn't protecting before the plate cracks

>>34962235
>6.5 Grendel for SMG
You probably also believe that SMG is semiautomatic weapons.

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>>34961068
Tfw no 458 win mag garand

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>>34962221
>at maximum effective range.
Define """"maximum effective range"""".

Telescoped, polymer cased round in the 6mm range. No more magwells, which would allow for quadstacked magaines.

>>34960844

Some sort of 6.5 should be good enough. If you can get it to fit in 5.56 magazines that would be sweet.

>>34960844
.300 FUCK-MOTHERING SAVAGE, YOU FILTHY ANIMALS.

>>34961336
If we're going for a .30 cal round that has an effective range of 300 meters, why not go full cost-effective and just use 7.62x39?
>inb4 commies get out

>>34962261
Go back to shitposting about 9mm/45 of AR/AK kid.

>>34962286
Do you not know how ballistics work?

>>34962286
Well, the m4 reaches out to 500m. I suppose an M16, which uses its cartilage at max velocity, would have a range of around 700m.

>>34960844
.50 BMG and make GM8 Lynx standard issue.

9mm

>>34960844

The final recommendation of the Bureau of Ordnance before McNamara ordered the 5.56 to be adopted immediately and unchanged:

6.5mm 100-120 grains @ 3000 fps

Testing for the 6.8SPC showed a 6.5mm bullet would have been the most accurate but the appropriate case would not fit the max chamber length of the M16/M4. So as a compromise they increased the bullet weight instead to 6.8.

6.5 Grendel has the same problem. Being designed to fit in existing ARs.

The ballistics have not changed. If they could get the designed performance of 6.5 Creedmoor out of an SBR I'd be happy. If it were as cheap and light as 5.56 it would be a revolution.

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>>34962466
Educate me.

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The hipster of intermediates. The intermediate cartridge from before they were cool. The cartridge that powered the first true assault rifle. Lost to time but not forgotten.

6.5mm Arisaka.

>>34962221
This is straight out of the anti M4 propaganda made by competing manufacturers from back when Colt had exclusive production rights.

>>34961068
Hnnnnng

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>>34961298
are you of retarded?

loaded hot with 16 inch barrel
>90 grain .224 matchking 2500 fps= 1200 yards supersonic
>175 grain .308 matchking 2500 fps= 1100 yards supersonic

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>>34960844
I used to be on the 6.5 grendel train but honestly the Chinese 5.8x42 seems ideal to me. 6mm>6.5>5.7>7.8

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>>34964736
6.2 mm is objectively best mm for a new combat cartridge.

>>34961772
>sabot
>tungsten
Those rounds must cost a fortune.

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>>34960844
Ditch guns altogether begin issuing suicide vests. If it works for the enemy then why not us?

>>34961925
>6.5 Swede
>implying an intermediate round fits an SMG
>inb4 calling a carbine an smg like the HK53
Go away Svens and take your volvo shilling with you

>>34960844
Airsoft

.58 Schubarth
Dardick Trounds
12mm Gyrojet

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>>34960912
Sure, if you want 10rd mags. 7.62x45 is the one true God/parent case

>>34961336
Because fuck engaging at anything beyond short range, right? What a dumb meme.

>>34964377
will 90 gr projectiles fit in existing stanag mags/

>>34965330
>7.62x45 is the one true God/parent case
Goddamnit, I still really want to know how Murray's 7x46 UIAC is.

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>>34960844
6.5x43 IWK

A ballistic prototype round developed by Germany in 1962.

It means new magazine (somewhere between 5.56x45 and 7.62x51 in size) and weapon designs for everyone in NATO.

But man, it looks like it would have 6.5 Grendel capability in a more machine-gun friendly case design.

>>34965330
>7.62 anything
>God
No.

>>34965756
Might as well go back to 6mm SAW with modern projectiles.

>>34966166
With a lead free bullet I'd imagine the 6mm SAW would be right in line with the Chinese round.

>>34960844
6.5x45

>>34961326
They developed a NEW 7.62 round that's better at penetrating armor than current 5.56. In the past 5.56 does better against armor than 7.62 but this newer higher velocity 7.62 round does better.

>>34960844
18mm musket ball

6.5x55 :)))))

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6.5mm CTA

>>34960844
.50 beowulf

>>34966418
So why can't those fags just chamber an AR in this again? Gotta waste more tax dollars I guess.

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>>34966465
Because there are no targets beyond 150m

>I atleast responded to your b8

>>34966539
Tis' not bait friend. Let's just field apcs to get closer to them and then shoot them

4.5×26mm MKR

6.5 Creedmoor

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>>34963837
Can confirm, they shoot so smooth, soooo good

>>34962137
Holy shit yes please

>>34961849
the only acceptable answer

>>34966122
Just gonna ignore the parent case part in favor of shitposting huh. Nevermind the basic rounds capabilities, the time of it's adoption and the cartridge OAL/mag well benefits it would have provided, allowing for all manner of subscriber fun to happen

>>34966475
Have you absolutely never looked into ANYTHING even remotely concerning careless or telescoping ammunition?

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>>34967133

>>34967183
>Dr. Snommish's reasoning was that if a single neck is good, a double neck should be better and a triple neck ought to be terrific
Sounds like solid reasoning to me

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>>34965669
Imagine that and a small frame AR-10 like the SF-MATEN. Or just a SCAR.

That would be good for another 20 years

>>34960880
only correct answer.

300 BLK

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beep beep, best caliber coming through.

>>34960844
30.06

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I'll take 7x46mm UIAC for $800 Alex.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/04/07/7x46mm-uiac-universal-intermediate-assault-cartridge/

http://7x46mmuiac.com/7x46mm_Cartridge.html

>>34960880
This

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>>34960844
6mm Unified.

>>34964377
And? A 90 gr projectile going 1200 fps has significantly less energy than a 175 at 1200 , so the only benefit of the 90 gr 5.56 is that it's accurate to ranges which are not practical for 99.9% of soldiers.

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>6.5×50mmSR
A modern Arisaka round?

>>34960844

4.7x21 Caseless

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>>34961585
>>34961574
>>34961545
>>34961400
>>34961315
>>34961281
>Ceramic plates

Nyet, new Ratnik plates are coated titanium, level IV+ protection.

>>34961784
It took ten of those at 10 meters, no penetration.

>>34961433
Fuck you

>>34966273
They'll never expect it

>>34968126
Wouldn't that be more expensive than ceramics? Do the ruskies not have the technology or something or just cheaper to use coated titanium?

>>34968376
The Russians have an abundance of Titanium, why do think the CIA stole USSR titanium cookware to bring back here to reforge into SR-71 parts.

>>34960844
2mm electromagnetically propelled depleted uranium pellets.

>>34960844

I'll put my money on 6.5 Grendel.

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4.5 Interdynamic

>>34968126
Nigger please. Ti is terrible as armor, ruski realised that and switched to steel.

Now ratnik plates are aluma oxide ceramics.

>>34968376
>>34968512
It's aluma oxide ceramics, that dumb nigger is being dumb.

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>>34966418
Look, i improved CTA round by 30%! Cut all unnecessary plastic off. Why does no one thought about this before?

>>34968982
>Ti is terrible as armor,
Ti is heaver than ceramics but it has advantage of low profile and small backface deformation . Russians make helmets and concealable rifle rated body armors for the ministry of internal affairs from Ti and good old steel. It should be mentioned that Russians have armor rating against 7.62x25 and soft kevlar armors have serous troubles against that round.

Ratnik plates are alumina of course. Older soviet military vests had titanium plates in some configurations

>>34969157
>Russians make helmets from Ti
Not any longer.
>concealable rifle rated body armors from Ti
It's either concealable or rifle rated, please. Concealable is usually plain aluminum plates, rifle rated - aluma oxide as mentioned before.

>Older soviet military vests had titanium plates in some configurations
That's like the only true statement.

>>34969157
>Russians have armor rating against 7.62x25 and soft kevlar armors have serous troubles against that round
Russians have soft armor rated up to that too, it's pretty thicc.

6mm HAGAR

We already spend billions a year so fuck it.
Give eveyone a GAU-8, a personal tank to cart it around on and a laser designator.
>Russians in a building
Saw it down
>Russians entrenched
Call an air strike
If for some reason you have to get out of your personal tank your sidearm is a 20" barrel .50BMG semiauto rifle

>>34969116
congratulations, you just reduced feeding reliability by introducting a corner.

>>34969222
>Russians
Hillary pls.

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>>34960879
>Not .243.

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>>34968954
Could be nice PDW cartridge. Though it has a problem of been kinda long to fit in the pistol grip. But ballistically it completely blows away 5.7x28 and 4.6x30 .

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>>34961545

4.73 x 33mm caseless

>>34969232
Or whomever.
It don't think it would matter with 30MM DU projectiles.

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>>34969306
>2017
>using clips
>kraut space overengineering

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243 Winchester?
Seems like a good choice to me.
Or this>>34960879

And what about 220 swift?
Fast rounds are not really affected by wind, what I'm told.
Still new to firearms and well Australia won't allow me to get any better at it.

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>>34969337
.243win is officially my go to AR, not because of it's versatility in accuracy but because the rods meant to be bored into .30 cal barrels deduced greater barrel thickness.

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>>34969306
Idiots killed caseless.

Caseless ammo was supposed to SIMPLIFY gun construction by removing the need to eject spent shell. Make guns simpler, more reliable, lighter (both gun and ammo), and safer (no hot brass fountain).

What they did instead was a clockwork so complex it had to fail, and so awful anyone mentioning caseless ammo ever since would be shunned due to this failure.

All my hate.

>>34969433
you're an idiot.

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>>34969437
So you think THIS is the right kind of device for a battlefield? With dust and moisture everywhere, with abuse of being thrown around?

And *you* call *me* an idiot?

>>34960844
1x125

>>34969515
Nailgun?

>>34968954
>>34968958
My only concern regarding it is that it's a rimfire cartridge

>>34961545
DU 556 rounds

>>34960890
i second 6.5 grendel

>>34960890
6.5x39mm Grendel. The only logical choice.

>>34962471
>Well, the m4 reaches out to 500m. I suppose an M16, which uses its cartilage at max velocity, would have a range of around 700m.

i urge you to examine the terminal ballistics of 5.56x45 at 700m

45-70 govt

>>34969433
Another thing - krauts completely failed magazine design. It was so long that it barely possible to carry it in the webbing. So they come with """genius""" solution - put additional magazines on the rifle. This rises weight of loaded rifle up to 4.3-4.6 kg (4.7mm rifle weighting more than 7.62mm lol) and ammo load available in magazines was sill low, 90-135. Clips are cool amiright?

Yeah krauts did everything to spoil concept so others would not dare to touch it .

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>>34960890
>>34969554
>>34969562
So 308 in an ar15 mag.
The only benefits 6.5 grendel has is less recoil and that's it.

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>>34969579
wrong, it shoots flatter than 5.56 AND 308.

the main detraction 6.5 has is that it weighs more than 5.56 (army will never go to a heavier round) and the capacity is lower

>>34969593
Ok shoots flatter and less recoil.
But as you said
>army will never go to a heavier round

So what about something smaller the 5.56 but shoots faster and further?

>>34969611
I mean I am supposing they will never go to a heavier round but you never know, they are considering a new heavier round right?

If they forgo the extra weight limitation, 6.5 is a no brainer like a mofo.

>>34969593
>>34969611
What about this
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.85×49mm

>>34969621
never heard of it but it basically looks like an alternative to 5.56 NATO.

can you point out some contrasting points that i may have missed while browsing the wiki for it?

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>>34960844
.303 Brit

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>>34969593
>24" barrel

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>>34960844
10mm caseless

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>>34960844
20mm for better chance of defeating advanced russian body armor

>>34969628
I just went looking for a smaller round and clicked on everything smaller and or longer then the 5.56.
I think thw brits were onto something with the 280 and this.
Maybe we should just go back to the .30 carbine

>>34969638
For indoor fights and space rapist?

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>>34969656
>.30 carbine
5.7 Iver Johnson and you have yourself a deal

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>>34969621
>0.199 BC same as 7.62 M80 NATO ball ( 0.200 G7 BC)
>actually has velocity
Long overbore bullets are life

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>>34960880
Only real answer

>>34969280
>But ballistically it completely blows away 5.7x28 and 4.6x30
Yeah I'm really surprised how hot he cranked the brass. It could certainly replace those two. I don't think it could replace 5.56's nice fragmentation though.

>>34969529
that was done purely for reduced weight >>34969280
The shape of the case prevent feeding issues.
Primer strikes could prob be resolved with a double striker like some old Henry rifles.

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>>34969116
the ammo is being designed for a push-through feed cylindrical chamber, so it requires support. Your idea would work on a traditional barrel with an extractor but not on a push-through feed gun.

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12 guage

>>34960844
5.56x51 ;)

>>34961819
>>34961791
>>34961803
Pistol round that goes through armor then starts tumbling in soft tissue. That's some big pistol.
>>34964931
They seem to do the job. And everything gets cheaper with mass production.

>>34970392
Terrorists win.

>>34970906
Before or after they miss?

>>34970944
You literally can't miss with 12 guage. Noob team cyka blyat!

Producing a 12 gauge round for defeating armor would be pretty easy too. There are so many types of rounds that can be used especially against unarmored snackbars. Also specialist rifles already exists for shooting at long range so why not?

>>34960879
I like this idea.

>>34970848
>Pistol round that goes through armor
Because it uses a tungsten core and tungsten isn't an option for widespread use.

>>34971192
Everything used to be not an option for widespread use until demand led to mass production and that led to lower costs and standard issue.
The people deciding where the money goes just need to get their heads out of their asses, stop throwing money on sci-fi projects that lead to nowhere and go for a step by step approach to improving soldiers' tools.

>>34971093
>would be pretty easy
With a single projectile sure, but that largely defeats the purpose of having a shotgun.

>>34971272
The US doesn't have enough tungsten to do it. It's not solely about cost. And even if it had enough tungsten to do it, 6.5 CBJ would be a poor choice over just putting a tungsten core in 5.56 [which already exists as M995].

6.5 creedmoor

>>34969634
you dont need to tell me about the MDR, i'm a huge faggot fanboy for it

>>34960844
there is no reason to replace 5.56 unless it is with a telescoped polycase round