Is there any good reason why all rifles aren't bullpup?

>>34954375
Wrong handed cry babies that bitch, moan, and lie about the ergonomics.

>>34954375
ejection port and depending on design, they're less compact than something that has a collapsible stock and shorter barrel. It's a nice decision if it's design favors it.

>>34954438
My 20" barrel AUG has a shorter overall length than a 16" barrel AR-15 with its stock fully collapsed.

>>34954438
>can't into ballistics

Trade offs for benefits and cost just make it easier to choose a conventional, much more abundant rifle design like AKs and ARs an easier option to move towards. At the end of the day, it's about cost per unit for arming rather than technology and efficiency.

Also, the only Bullpup to do it good and right was the AUG. FAMAS and F2000 being tied for a (distant) second place.

>>34954375
they look revulsing.

>>34954375

Less responsive trigger.
More awkward to reload.

>>34954375
No modern intermediate cartridge firing rifle should weigh more than 7 pounds unloaded without a sling, optic, or light.

>>34954489
>Lies about awkward reloads already.

Shit triggers, not ambi, awkward with GL, having chamber by cheek is unnerving, limited benefit now that SBRs have been sorted. Bearing in mind there is no inherent mechanical reason for bullpups to have these issues and on some examples they have been individually solved, but since no design has joined all these solutions together, bullpups are for the time being second best.

Bullpups dont offer that mutch if soldiers are only fighting outside a 200 yards+ all the time.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UNNg5V8OfDk

>>34954580
>Lists facts about how a platform is currently unsuccessful due to cost per unit.
>Brandwhoring

K.

>>34954580
>aside from the reload thing, the responses ITT have been some of the more reasonable and impartial regarding the shortcomings of bullpups that these threads have ever gotten
>still get some persecuted bullpupfag calling everyone a retard and decrying muh big mean AR15 boogiemen that hate freedom and want everything to be the same
huh, so this is why nobody like them...

>>34954580
>ps90s and tavors are all over the place in Canada.
No they're not. Skses are all over the place in Canada. Very few people justify the 2k price tag of a tavor and even the t97 is accepted begrudgingly. Ars are way more popular, because muh modularity and being overall better. Plus no sbr laws so 9 inch barrel ar no jokes.

>>34954638
SBRs are legal, just you have to pay a """""tax""""". There's also the magic workaround called the "arm brace" for pistols if you haven't realized.

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>>34954580
>Calling other people retarded why stating the same fact of some other guy all while unable to properly capitalized or punctuate.
>Accuse others of brandwhoring of standard firearms when in fact they were just stating facts and some even brandwhoring bullpups

It's like the kettle calling the fine china black.

>>34954580
>like to make shit up
So it's not a fact that the Aug, Tavor, and F2000 all weigh at least 7 and a half pounds when they don't have to?
Also
>AR-15
>a gun made by almost every company in the US
>brandwhoring
????????

>>34954638
>not really
You can't just say not really. Go work or atleast hangout in a gun store. Ars are the most common black sporting rifles in Canada. And the reason is simple, an Ar at the price of the norinco is a very decent ar. And people who like general purpose land shooting or hunting have many other choices.

I'm not giving you an opinion. Go ask a gun store clerk.

>>34954375
Considering we have good triggers and downward/forward ejection now, even the potential for adjustable stocks... I don't know. Some people just like wasted space I guess, and of course there's the ARfags with their lolbuffertubes.

The only thing that sketches me out, and I'm a lover of all bullpups, is the potential for a round blowing up in the chamber and it's closer to your face. They need to make sure there's a good amount of steel between the chamber and my money maker. The RFB did a gj at that.

Haven't seen the MDR in person yet but it looks like a game changer. I'm scratching my head wondering why every manufacturer didn't release a bullpup before they got theirs out, seeing as it got so much fanfare.

>>34955159
eurotrash git

>>34954375
You offhand a lot in urban conflict, the aug patter ejects brass into your mouth and cuts it up

>>34955223
I'm American, I just don't feel the need to compensate for something by having a big, loooong weapon ;)

>>34955514
>You offhand a lot in urban conflict, the aug patter ejects brass into your mouth and cuts it up
This is as much a training issue as a design failure. US Customs didn't seem to have a problem with training their officers to shoot offhand with the AUG.

>>34955159
>Considering we have good triggers
Name 5 bullpups with good stock triggers.

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>>34954375

Because they fucking suck and are unnecessarily complicated

>Select all signs
>"Slow children at play"

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>>34955159
>tfw 308 bullpups aren't more popular

ok a link from AnarchAngel but since I've used Bullpups and agree with what he says...

https://anarchangel.blogspot.com/2011/08/five-years-later-why-bullpups-arent.html

Big points

Bullpup designs are mechanically more complex

If a bullpup has a catastrophic failure, instead of the explosion being six or eight inches in front of your eyes, it's right at your eyesocket, or touching your cheekbone or ear.

Mag changes on most bullpups are slower

Bullpups can be difficult to fire while prone

Bullpups are naturally balanced in a non-instinctive way.


A point he does not cover... it's very hard to fire a bullpup off handed. Firing from the other side of barrier is difficult.

Mechanical complexity

The same mechanical complexity translates into manufacturing costs, maintenance issues, design issues

Triggers universally suck. The single time I've ever felt a good trigger on a bullpup was on a Desert Tech MDR or whatever the fuck it's called, and that's a some 10,000 dollar rifle

Ambi ejection means more mechanical complexity which adds cost. If you're thinking in terms of how great they handle in tighter locations which is fucking retarded, you're also factoring peeking around corners, a bitch and a half without ambi ejection, controls and the fact that it's already fucking awkward

Adjustable lop goes a really, really long way for grunts who are in a military that actually uses their weapons

So in total, you've got a more expensive, harder and more expensive to service rifle, that has shitty controls in certain situations it's praised, which funny enough, isn't the pattern of choice used by Special Forces in countries where it is the primary rifle for the grunts

Coincide? Probably not

>>34956581
How about you clean up your trigger control and stfu

>>34957498
>Desert Tech MDR or whatever the fuck it's called, and that's a some 10,000 dollar rifle

HAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHA WHEN WAS THIS WRITTEN

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> all this hate on a popular, proven design that has been used by militaries across the globe

It's not the be all end all OP, but it's a good design that fills a niche, and they are reliable, fun, look cool to some and not others, and a bunch of other positives. The shit about triggers is crap, not everyone only shoots guiseley triggers and having ok triggers is pretty common among guns.
> Looking at you ak's
I have two and I'll prolly get the rdb and mdr when I feel like it.

Thinking about a lever action, an old one. Dunno what.

>>34954580

The AR would be far more popular up here if our gun laws didn't get fucked up because of "muh Polytechnique".

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>>34956276
How do you train to fucking stop brass from ejecting into your mouth?

>>34957737
Buy a MDR/RFB/RDB/P90/FS2000

It wasn't always a perfected design, but stop living in the past because now it is.

>>34957602
*Desert Tech SRS a1

Wasn't the MDR. Has the same iffy trigger on all bullpups.

The SRS trigger is rock solid though. I'm still back in like 2014 when they were far higher than their current 5,000$ price point.

>>34957817
You can get an SRS A1 for under $4500. Trigger is amazing, which is why i had high hopes for the MDR, which I no longer have

>>34954375
There are 3 main considerations:
>Ergonomics
>Ejection
>Trigger Pull

The first is mostly a matter of training. Learning to swap out magazines closer in can be hassle if you're used to the AR pattern, but its really not hard even in armor and LBE once you have done so.

The second is an issue mechanically, and solved the same way. Some only eject one way and this is problematic for left handed shooters, as well as some usecases for right handed shooters. A compromise is to have it swapable, and eject which ever way you like but thats still not ideal as you then have "Left handed rifles" and it can still interfere in some use cases.
Ideally you make it eject down or forward, as several bullpups have done. This solves the problem, but is an important design consideration.

The last is the most valid complaint about Bullpups. Because the trigger group is separated from the actual bolt mechanics, it necessitates the use of a some method of transferring motion, usually a transfer bar. This makes for squishy triggers and often higher weights. While this can be improved, the best bullpup trigger will always be worse than the best conventional trigger. You don't need the best conventional trigger on a general purpose rifle though, so you can get a bullpup trigger up to an acceptable or even good standard but you have to pay more for it.

The transfer bar is also a source of malfunction in many current designs.

AR type rifles are also very cheap and have a huge aftermarket, compared to proprietary Bullpup designs.

>>34957737
Train so it doesn't point at your mouth?

>>34954438
>>34954522
>>34955514
>>34957498
I think we should stop talking about specific rifles when the OP is about the the concept. Its not "why haven't militaries adopted the bullpups that are available", its "why aren't all rifles bullpups".

Bullpups should eject forward or down, and it does cause some problems if they do not. But we shouldn't pretend that the concept has to have it side ejecting like the AUG.

Bullpups, mechanically, could have adjustable length of pull, even if current brands do not. They will intrinsically have a longer minimum, but most rifles don't get much shorter than a LOP than 11 or 12 inches which is achievable with the concept. Occasions where you do want a shorter LOP than that usually come from wanting a shorter OAL which is achieved in a different fashion in a bullpup. Longer LOP is simple.

I'm not saying everything in the posts I'm replying too is wrong. Not at all. Nor am I saying the problems I didn't use as examples are insurmountable I just think we should focus on the concept rather than specific examples of it.

>>34957737
Shield the ejection port with your right hand.

>>34954489
Chat shit. SA80 reloads are lovely.

>>34954530
Longer barrel and therefore accuracy without impeding on manuverability

>>34954461
The Atrax 20" coming out is about 2" shorter OAL then my 14.5" AR.

>>34954375
Not wanting to put the explodey bits next to your face?

>>34954489
I get that its not what you are used to, but in an actual firefight .002 seconds on a reload isn't gonna change the world

>>34960316
>Longer barrel and therefore accuracy
No.

>>34960322
Shouldn't you generally be reloading in cover anyway?

>>34960316
Barrel length does not affect accuracy or precision, only effective range.

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>>34954438

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>>34954375
Trigger
Ejection
Cleaning
Reliability
Niche Role
Expense
There's 5 good reasons.

>>34954375
Ether the rifle does not have a flawed magazine insertion/catch or that nations previously used those rifles that had such flaws in which outweighed the negatives of reloading such a weapon. We use to give servicemen terrible magazine catch rifles, even today most of the failures of the rifle is magazine feed related.

>>34960778
>>34960760
That depends on the range you're talking about.
Higher velocities mean less wind drift, less drop, shorter flight time. It also allows a much larger range of cartridge loadings.

True its not going to make much difference to a service rifle designed for sub 300m, but its not necessarily true of all rifles.

>>34960913
>That depends on the range you're talking about.
So you admit barrel length affects velocity and thus, effective range, not "accuracy".

>>34960951
I'm not the guy that you two originally responded to, just the one you replied to now.

But wind effects directly affect accuracy.
So while it might it might be more correct to say "Barrel Length affects velocity and velocity affects accuracy", it is essentially the same thing.

>>34961526
Wind does not affect accuracy, nor precision. It affects the shooter's ability to put the round on target. If the shooter misses due to increased affect of the wind, it is due to the shooter's inability to correctly compensate for the wind; it is not the barrel's fault.

>>34961607
*effect of the wind

>>34960316
>>34960913
Actually, shorter barrels tend to be more precise as they are stiffer and thus have improved harmonics.

>>34960771
Yea thats basically my point, these high speed low drag situations where you need the worlds fastest reload is unnecessary in 99.9% of ALL combat reloads. AUS military uses the AUG and they seem to like it just fine

>>34961607
>It affects the shooter's ability to put the round on target.
So the shooter's accuracy?

Semantics aside, your reasoning is retarded anyway. By your argument the Gyrojet didn't have any accuracy issues because it was the shooter not compensating for wind at the muzzle.

>>34956796
If you're in a situation where .308 is preferable to .223, you're in a situation where OAL doesn't matter all that much.

>>34961766
>comparing rockets to rifles
And I'm the retarded one

>>34954375
is there any good reason why any rifles ARE bullpup?

why does everyone hate left-handed shooters

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after mods and parts costs about 2800 after discounts to make a 16.5 inch sar LE tavor into a CTAR clone excluding the M.A.R.S optic which is J.U.N.K. 1500 alone for a M.O.R M&P IR model which has a non cucked IR laser so ya. its gonna cost me another 200 after shipping to cut rethread and pin a vg6 epsilon to my 16.5 inch. FPS lose is negligible this set up allows me to use an m4sdk with 29.65 inch oal. removes about half a pound of metal off the gun and 100 grams off the barrel no more exposed metal better balance. Only down side is its 850 for another barrel and they are sold out for forever so if I go through with the ctar project there is no turning back.

>>34962193
Let me verify I'm following you correctly, you're spending over $1k to chop off 1-1.5" from the barrel?

I want a CQC Aug M3 but they're all like 3k used :(

>>34962435
I'm hoping the MDR doesn't suck and they release the SBR 300blk version by 2020

>>34962126
Because they're wrong, just like fags.

>>34962400
no im spending 200 on the barrel and 200 for the gearhead works stand alone sight post and gear head works direct to barrel. half rail. looking at a 7.2 lbs empty after mods. ive spent about 2800 in total on the weapon so far including my surefire km3 vampire fatbody light its 24 oz for the white ir light and mepro mor and ggg rear trtium flip up sight

>>34962529
:(

>>34956795
>because they fucking suck
No they don't. They're fine
>unnecessarily complicated
Open up a F88. Theyre not complicated at all. No more than an AR or AK system.

>>34960817
Cleaning an F88 is not hard infact I would wager that it is easier because you can fit your fingers inside the buttstock much easier than an AR15 (Although I've never cleaned an AR115)

>>34954375
The only bad thing I have to say about bullpups is the groggy feeling trigger and the need to move your hand further between changing your magazine and releasing the cocking handle.

That said the new EF-88 that the Australian Army is getting has a bolt release button.

>>34954375
Not everyone wants a weapon that looks like the Lego company built.

>>34954375
I don't like the way they look and not every rifle is for military purposes?