Shotgun vs carbines? Are there any carbine that dip down into

>>34937478
Just go buy a remington 870 (pre freedom group) or a mossberg.

>>34937495
OK I'm sorry dad.
By the way is that picture accurate to modern times

>>34937517
>accurate to modern times
>$150 mausers
>baikal mp18's

>>34937813
>>34937517
its fucking dated right at the top
>$150 mausers
it says $150+
150 PLUS means 150 and up
theres also a comment that goes further in depth than you bothered to read

>still wondering why the armscor m5 isnt in it though, its a damn good shotty for 250

Hi-Point Carbines

>>34937478
poorfag snake armory ar 15

>>34937813
>What are Turkish Mausers?
>What are Spanish Mausers ( http://www.jgsales.com/spanish-1916-mauser-bolt-action-short-rifle,-7x57,-good,-used.-p-80642.html )
>What are sporterized Mausers?

Kill yourself you illiterate fuck. (though the Baikal MP18 is a fair point)
>>34937517
Mostly, some autist fucked it up by replacing all the rifle recommendations with .22s that aren't Marlin model 60s or 10/22s but the handgun section and rifle section are still ok, while the shotgun section is excellent aside from the fact that the Baikals aren't being imported anymore.

Can we all agree on these changes?

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>>34939530
fuck forgot file

>>34939530
>>34939539
no because your arbitrary bullshit doesnt factor in a lot of things
>banned from import
there are still fuck tons of them here already
>CA undercover
I have no real opinion in this, but this guide is for poorfag guns that can be found for poorfag prices in poorfag places like pawnshops. It doesnt have to be better than 90% of its competitors, it just has to work
>can not be found at this price point
i see them online for 300-350 all day long, the supply may be dried up, but they float around
>why the fuck are there so many 22s?
because theyre fucking everywhere and all pawnshops have them and all anyone nkows about is 10/22 and marlin
besides, ammo is cheap
>nugget
cheap ammo
>sks
RIP

>>34941726
>nugget
not a poorfag gun anymore

All milsurp has to be removed aside from spanish mauser, It HAS to be. Fuck off if you think otherwise.

Also read the top of that picture.

HOME
AND
PERSONAL
DEFENSE

not a hobbyist gun

that means .22s are largely out

and yes, being banned from import is valid. fuck off.

>>34941784
you can find a bubba butchered milsurp rifle for cheap at most pawnshops or armslist
fucked up milsurp isnt exactly hobbyist and those rifles are on there because of relatively common ammo
.22s are viable for HD this point has been stressed and proven in countless threads
being banned from import is only valid for brand new guns. the fact remains that they are still in the US, they are cheap, and they function.

>>34937478
browning A5s are cheap and plentiful, especially the 16ga variety. keep an eye out on the barrel for belgian or japanese made, belgian is obviously better, but jap works. 16ga shells are less common, so your best bet is to order online

>>34937813
I just bought a sporterized Czech Mauser for 150 a month or so ago.

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Lemat revolver. 9 .44 balls, and a 20ga underbarrel. How the confederacy lost, I'll never understand.

>>34942848
Jackson died and was the most compliant general in the war

>>34942881
Actually, it's because the damned fools would do their best to get any other revolver for no good reason.

>>34942203
>22 is viable
so you're saiyng i can carry a ruger mkII (maybe shorten the barrel) as my only weapon and be ok?

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>>34942960
DO NOT LISTEN TO THAT FAG, .22WMR IS THE MINIMUM FOR HOME DEFENSE AND YOU COULD DIE TESTING THAT THEORY

>>34942848
seems legit, tho

>>34942982
>>34942960
I'm not saying its the best option, I'm saying it fits the bill of
>cheap gun
>cheap ammo
>widespread
>better than no gun

>>34942982
Don't be retarded, just magdump in head. No need for .22wmr.

>>34943034
Home invaders aren't paper targets.

>>34943010
ok you only have a ruger mk 2 and ill rob your house and we'll see what happens

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/683881645

>>34943051
I have a marlin 60 and a weird floor plan, come at me m8

>>34943050
Home invaders aren't tactical masterminds, sniping you from 500 feet away.

>>34943208
>jamaal sees your gun held at him, knows he can't run
>begins to raise gun
>peep!
>peep!
>injured, but ready to hip fire
>POP
>peep!
>POP
>POP
>POP
>POP
>POP

>>34937478
Depends what you want. It's a bit like asking "So for my first wrench do I want a crescent wrench or a pipe wrench?" The answer is "depends what you want to do"

If you're looking for a "one and done" I'd point you to the shotguns. No other firearm is as versatile. Black bear to dove, the 12 gauge can harvest it. And a pump action for HD is a classic for a reason (watch the AR fags come out to say you need an AR if you think at all home defense).

If you're looking for more sport applications. Plenty of fun to have with a 12 gauge but more expensive to shoot (about a quarter a bang in my experience more for buck and slugs). A 22 is a better fit here at a nickel a bang. It'll teach you what you need to learn and will be there for a plinker, small game hunter and marksman. You'll be able to afford to feed it more and more often.

The Pistol Caliber Carbines offer some interesting options. There's a new PCC division of 3 gun for competition. It's underpowered for a rifle but a viable option for HD. It costs more to feed than a 22 BUT far less than any centerfire rifle. More fun too imho. Won't be as good for precision.

For a poorfag looking at first gun: you could do a lot worse with whatever 12 gauge pump feels best to you, a ruger 10-22, or a hipoint carbine in 9.

>>34943606
so he survived 3 face shots, and then got the energy to raise his gun and shoot me? What the fuck is raiding your city, fuckin terminators?

>>34937478
>accuracy but it's a shotgun so..
delete this image

>>34941726
You're a fucking autistic slavaboo if you're honestly opposed to replacing the Baikal with a domestically produced single shot shotguns

The CA undercover is as stated, almost the same price as a Smith and Wesson j frame and is more expensive than a Taurus 85.

Again, your slavaboo autism is showing. There's absolutely no reason to keep a handgun that's completely dried up on the primary market and costs an arm and a leg to service/buy magazines for when there's plenty of new production handguns in that price range. If you have to have an autistic surplus slav gat then replace it with the Bulgarian Makarov.

.22s are not suitable for home defense and absolutely none of those rifles are objectively superior to either the Ruger or the Marlin. At least add some fucking manually operated .22s for variety if you're going to be autistic about it.

Cheap nugget ammo? What fucking planet do you live on? The surplus is gone and never coming back.

>>34943671
.22 can bounce off your brain case very easily, and glancing is near certain at some angles. You can have your face filled with 9mm and keep chugging. Video games have distorted your perception of terminal ballistics.

>>34943649
Can you tell me the purpose of non 12 gauge? 16 and 20? those are pretty cheap at pawn shops and they're not single shot

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>>34943710
Fucking delete yourself

>>34943710
If this was true, then the .22 would never have killed anything ever, since it first was created, and would just been used for paintballing substitute or some shit like that.

>>34943687
not opposed to replacing it, but you didn't offer up a replacement. for the third fucking time, they're already here, and they are cheap

>revolvers

you gave a single reason why CZs should be removed, and I countered that reason with a point contrary to your statement, surplus is dried up you're even agreeing with me now, which im confused about and you didnt even mention the fact that they arent exactly drop safe

>22 viability
this is its own fucking thread and i'm not engaging this point further. everybody already knows its fucking 22lr

54r is under 50cpr. its not the 20cpr of 308, but good luck finding a 308 boltgun for 250.
>which btw, why the hell is there only one on this list? and i just noticed no .223s either

>>34943725
Mainly less recoil and smaller size. You buy that with more expensive ammo and less lead downrange each bang. If you're using them a lot you'll probably start looking at reloading.

I'm a big proponent of "fit" guiding your choice rather than numbers. If the 870 in 20 gauge fits you? If it feels right? Get it. That counts for more. It translates to pointing it more naturally which means hitting your target. Lead downrange that doesn't hit your target is useless.

>>34943768
I swear, the sooner the ballistics gel generation dies the better.

Reality doesn't care what you IMAGINE to be correct. There are factual instances of people being shot in the face multiple times and still returning fire fatally.

>>34943793
It wasn't developed for killing men. It still will.

>>34943805
I just can't see people getting a headshot and still be ready to function like a normal human. I mean, a hard slap will knock you out cold, what would any bullet then do to you?

>>34943805
>I swear, the sooner you guys stop believing what the FBI believes to be an effective test medium and start listening to what some random fucking fudd on /k/ has to say about terminal ballistics the better

Please explain how a round that expands and penetrates more than another round isn't better for self-defense.

>>34943855
>a hard slap will knock you out cold
I'm not going to bother telling you about adrenaline. A hard slap will impart more FORCE than a bullet to the face, moving your skull and smacking your brain into it. This is how concussive knockouts work. Bullets don't do this, they discharge their energy basically outward in a circular vortex. A .22lr to the face would be like having red hot nails driven in your face, not explosive shockwaves.

>>34943871
>9mm causes gigantic cavitation in gel
>this is the wound cavity it would cause in the human body
>penetrates a dillion inches
>but humans are only 10" thick and they don't overpenetrate

>>34943687
slavaboos fucking REKT

>>34943855
I'm sorry, have you not seen the disgusting webm of some dude who's been shot in the face with a shotgun holding himself together with his own two hands?

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>>34943886
Are you fucking illiterate? Ballistics gelatin is supposed to provide a consistent and repeatable medium to test penetration and expansion in. Just because a round doesn't penetrate and expand the same amount in different mediums doesn't mean that you can't test relative penetration and expansion (ie. 9mm penetrates and expands better than .22lr, 5.7x28 penetrates well but doesn't expand well, etc)

The FBI is well aware that it's not a very good analogue to the human torso, which is why the minimum penetration depth is quite a bit thicker than your average torso and the maximum penetration depth is MUCH thicker than your average human torso.

>>34943900
Jesus i remember that shit actually, and good pint too. ( I think it was attempted suicide though.) Sorry man i don't know that much about guns but i was really sure any face/headshot would atleast immobilise someone to the point, where he wasn't able to react in such a manner where he could provide a effective counter.

>>34943803
>implying
anything that isnt 12 gauge is useless
>>34943984
to be fair if you shot the average person in the head they'd flip the fuck out too hard to really hurt you aside from luck

either way id still take the biggest shit possible if this is h ome defense

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>>34943900
>anecdotal evidence trumps scientific fact
More penetration and more expansion is ALWAYS better than the alternative, I can't even believe that this has to be discussed.

>>34944004
>>34943978
You need to check your quote chain. Here's the argument:

a: won't 22 to the head kill you
b: no you can get shot with 9mm a few times and keep fighting
a: (image of 9mm cavitation in ballistic gel)
b: fucking ballistics gel kids
c: EXCUSE ME BUT BALLISTICS GEL IS A CONSISTENT MEDIUM

>>34944004
No discussion from me my dude, i just thought the impact from a bullet to the head would be enough to make the fucker stop in his tracks, even if it was a .22

>>34944004
>execution range shot to the skull = 9mm to the face
Aight, dude.
>>34944067
You're autistic, though.

>>34944067
I never posted any ballistic tests, that was another anon, i was just suprised that a .22 wouldn't atleast knock you out.

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>>34944004
Woah, dude! You murdered my strawman! A shotgun to the skull really WILL kill you!

>>34944090
That's fine, I just call them as they appear. No hard feelings or anything, I just feel a little sperged on because I made a ballistics gel joke about the fags who think it replicates human flesh based on shit like mythbusters tests.

>>34943805
>It wasn't developed for killing men.
Hard to imagine, but .22 short was made for defensive applications, and .22lr is a more powerful variant of a more powerful variant of that.

>>34944103
No worries man, as a noguns im just trying to learn.

>>34944119
Yes, but in pocket revolvers and derringers not duty guns. Manstoppers predated them. .22 short was ineffective, so .22 long replaced it virtually immediately, and .22 long would never have survived if it didn't become .22lr by finding it's true niche as a RADICALLY effective small game cartridge in rifles.

>>34944161
.22 long didn't become .22lr, .22 long had a 28 grain bullet and .22lr has a 40 grain bullet.

t. wikipedia user

>>34943999
did you miss where I told him that if the 20 gauge fits him to get it?

Fit is king.

>>34943799
Where in the fuck are you finding 308 for 20cpr? The shittiest stuff at academy is 9.99 for monarch steel case

>>34944313
whoops, meant 30cpr. wolf from SGammo last month

>>34944184
What does that even mean?

>>34945199
it means dont hike in boots that are size 13 when youre a size 11

>>34945199
that stock design is actually hella complicated. The best way to find a shotgun is to shoot a bunch. Odds are one will shoot much better because it fits you better. That's the one to buy.

Second best is to heft a bunch. You won't have the "man I can't miss with this shotgun" but you will know one that feels better than the others. Recoil will be better on that gun. You'll hit better with that gun.

Brand etc matters less i m h o than whether that shotgun fits.

High point carbines are very very inexpensive, especially if bought used/privately, usually around $250ish and I've seen lower

Keltec Sub 2000s go for $4-450

Beretta CX4s go for $6-700