Why don't we build tanks with two cannons?

Less room for ammo and crew, doubled expenditure, not meaningfully improving effectiveness.

Because the Ratte was too big yo ve efficient

Because then you need two gunners or a more complicated loading system with dubious benefit

>>34899720

because video games are not reality

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>>34899720
Let me save you the trouble OP

>>34899720
The Soviets toyed with it in designing the ST-II. Ultimately, it doesn't provide a whole lot of use in modern tank design. Given that you rarely need more than one round per target, the second gun is essentially dead weight unless you put it in an independent mount like another turret, and you can imagine the engineering nightmares that would cause.

The only time having multiple guns was useful was when said guns were shit and you had a hull-mounted howitzer for infantry support and a high-velocity gun in the turret for anti-armor. But that was pretty much obsolete by early WWII, when guns like the American 76mm M1 and German 7.5cm Kwk 40 started showing up.

>>34899771
Speaking of the scorpion in the background, when they say the only part of the scorpion that's armored is the gun-shield, they really meant it. The front is literally no thicker than a car's body, so knocking on it gives you a hollow ring to it as opposed to the banging against a hard solid surface that even the M113 gives.

>>34899720
they will be there for us if we ever need to put those giant bots down
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hogrVcyvS8A

>>34899810
The multiple guns were one of the reason why feddie tanks sucked, tho. If they just used an autocannon they would be able to shit on the Zakus for a cost effective price.

Size and Weight Constraints.

One bigger and heavy gun is better than two smaller and lighter guns.

>>34899800

I thought the math in this image was bunked a long time ago?

>>34899825
both cannons were auto. the tank only had two crewmen

>>34899720
Because tank armor is not HP.

You can either penetrate the armor or you can't. If the first shell can't penetrate the armor, the second shell isn't likely to do so either. A single larger gun is always better than two smaller guns.

>>34899800
Much appreciated

>>34899825
eye balling the vid, you could say teh M61A5 Main Battle Tank guns could fire once 4 seconds, botha t the same time or in any succession rate needed, what mean firing one 2 secs after the other, meaning one round every two seconds, or 30 rounds per minute, what is rather fucking good i'd say

>>34899836

How do you "debunk" the fact that two guns weighs more than one gun, and that tanks which have been made for one gun cannot carry two guns?

Like what do you even think that you're saying here?

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>>34899897
Even though the original show mostly showed Zakus smashing M61s and the earlier episodes of Igloo showed them stomping on them (which shouldn't have done anything considering that they're allegedly half the M61's weight), this was the exception rather than the rule and in most cases if the Zaku was caught on the ground it would end up like the vids and get machine-gunned to death by an advancing swarm of what are from its PoV self-propelled guns. In fact, the majority of Earth engagements were tank vs tank even after the Zaku was mass-produced but Gundam naturally doesn't show it because it's a mecha series and outside of Igloo would rather focus on gundam and weird shit like that one suit that was half gundam, half ball that fought things by biting them and was somehow only as heavy as a Renault FT or that one Dutch machine that was a windmill on legs. You get the feeling that the only reason they were made was to make a new toy model and the writers probably just rolled their eyes and went with it.

Why stop at 2?

>>34899720
Decreased accuracy. Shooting one gun would cause the turret to turn a little and throw off accuracy for the second shot.

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>>34899800
>tfw I made this image

>>34900071

You just fire them simultaneously, mate. The whole point of adding a second gun is increasing your chance to hit, so you'd be firing both guns at the same target, at the same time.

I already know that putting two guns in one turret is stupid, but this is not the reason why it's stupid.

>>34899800
What was it with the swedes and fixed gun placements?

>>34899732
Just get an extra black guy to be the 2nd loader, its what they do anyway for the Abrams.

>>34899720
Unpractical for real warfare

>>34899720
> less ammo
> more weight
> less room
this is all you need to know

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For the same reason warship turrets only have one cannon

Stop being retarded, OP

>>34899840
>Because tank armor is not HP.

But ERA is, sort of

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>>34899720
Lurk harder, kiddo

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Why don't we put two barrels right next to each other on the same recoil system and make it so that if you miss the first time you barely have to change the angle to fire a new shot?

this would barely change anything because you would load the second round immediately beside the first

>>34899720
no real benefit of having two identical guns
it's better to have 2 tanks than a 1 twice as big tank

there are some oddballs that have an autocannon against APCs/helis and a large bore cannon against fortifications and tanks, sometimes also firing ATGMs
most came to conclusion that it's better to just have extra ammo for main gun than having the extra 20 or 30mm

>>34901921
Not a tank

>>34901958
You would need to adapt the recoil mechanism to handle twice the force. Also loading two shells side by side isn't as easy as it sounds

>>34900549
I've heard that rotating turrets with long guns tend not to work too well in dense forests, so they prefer fixed guns.

>>34901958
Pointless. 90% of the time, if a shell penetrates, the tank is out, and there is no need for a second shot.
If the enemy tank wasn't hit, you can't fire immediately after because the smoke of the gun and the dust lifted off the grounds prevents the gunner from adjusting his aim, giving enough time for the gun to reload.
So, no technical advantage.

However, this weapon would be far heavier and bigger, which is a direct downgrade. This is why nobody ever bothered to have two identical guns on the same tank.

>>34901977
It's literally a twin cannon turret mounted on a tank. What else do you want?

>>34902025
>twice the force
no you'd need to design it to need half the recoil because the rounds would not fire at the same time and the second barrel would add weight and reduce felt recoil

>>34900110
Yes, but it does defeat the primary argument for two guns, double firing rate.

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>>34902089
>tracked chassis
>tank
>SPAA
different purposes buddo

OVERLORD IS MOVING.
MAKE WAY FOR THE OVERLORD TANK.

>>34902301
I
AM
B I G.

>>34900053
well now I'm curious, is there an anime about tank operators?

>>34902155
the fuck am I looking at?

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>>34902326

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>>34899720
Because you're just going to stay still and get C4'd anyway.

>>34902452
it gets a chapter about it on ms igloo:gravity front

>>34902452
>>34902632

maybe two chapters if you consider this a tank hildolrf https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZuZdykKwxE

>>34902061
Makes sense, just that fixed guns seem so odd and detrimental in comparison to other systems

>>34902554
>DAMN C4 FAIRIES can be heard in the distance

>>34902463
A newborn Huey is baptized by a Shaman-Pilot and his acolytes

>>34902452
Girls und Panzer

Not even kidding, my dude

>>34901477
>For the same reason warship turrets only have one cannon
lol what
wrong

Retarded, impractical

>>34899840
Wrong, armor fatigue is a thing.
The design is still dumb tho.

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Germany did it:
VT1-1 and VT1-2

>>34900110
>The whole point of adding a second gun is increasing your chance to hit
You fucking baboon

You don't have twin tank guns because, if you fire them at the exact same time, they will just each follow the same trajectory and hit the same spot. If they penetrate, congratulations, but one shell would have the done the same work, because one penetrating hit is all that is needed. And if they don't penetrate, well, what the fuck did you think was going to happen? Firing two won't make it more likely to penetrate when they hit the same spot.

And if you fire them one after the other, well, after the first shot your sight is now obscured by smoke, the turret or whole tank has shifted and thrown the sight off, so you have to wait for the smoke to clear and to get back on target before you can fire the second gun. During this time your loader or autoloader could have loaded a second shell into the first gun, making the second gun pointless.

This is why twin tank guns are utterly worthless.

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>>34899720
Why don't we build tanks with two legs?

>>34904028
Because Japan is cucked by the US.

>>34899720
What about a single barrel that fires two projectiles. Much like a tandem round.
First is to detonate the reactive armor the second to actually destroy the target.

>>34899720
Its better to make a drone t55. 64 and 72 that has a faster auto loader, a semi auto tank to be precise, than it is to make 2 barrels for 2 auto loaders for the same ivan or chad, or tyrone to shove shells into on 2 separate seats in the turret.
Those drones might follow a mother tank that is actually a moving fort capable of withstanding every anti tank weapon in existence today.
The future might not exist, but it comes and delivers.

>>34903985
>they will just each follow the same trajectory and hit the same spot.
>what is dispersion

>>34904056

So you're telling me we'd have Mechs right now if Japan hadn't lost the war?

>>34905298
Yes.

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>>34899720
If you're going for two, why not go for 6?

>>34902968
And it's legitimately one if the better animes I've watched. Autistic attention to detail combined with surprisingly well-written characters, all bundled up in 30 tons of Tokyo Drifting Krupp Stahl.

>>34905298
Nah, Japan only got weird after they were nuked, anyway.

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If you can carry 2 guns of X size, you could instead carry 1 gun of X*2 size, which is always better.

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Why don't we build tanks with 7 cannons?

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It would probably be a little redundant, but I like the design of this tank

>>34902664

It was designed when firing on move had only marginal accuracy. All axis stabilization and modern fire control computers became thing only in 70's.

If steering mechanism of tank is responsive enough it can aim the gun fast and accurately. Another benefit from fixed gun is simple and fast autoloader, on turreted designs with traditional gun mount and autoloader, reloading is possible only on limited elevation range, so gun has to centered before reload is possible.

we should upgrade revolver cannons to fire 120 mm

>>34907539

Look into the French tanks of the Cold War

>>34899720
>Why don't we build an AR-15 with two barrels?

>>34900568
>niggers in combat

>>34907972

Yes, blacks in combat. What's the problem?

>>34908242
subhuman niggers hate combat arms because they're emasculated bitches. You'll sooner find then in the armory or occupying some POG welfare position than down range.

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>>34905857

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>>34907964
Because we do

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>>34902452
Sora No Woto, technically, though mostly it's about trumpets, cute girls doing cute things, cool Spanish castle towns built on the side of cliffs, and PTSD flashbacks.

>>34899800
let me put this in a way even you can understand:
2>1

This isn't rocket science.

>>34902746
How large lump of explosives is needed to take down a modern tank and where should it be placed to be most effective?
No shaped charges and it has to be outside the tank.

>>34908672
Just needs to be big enough to turn the crew into bloody paste inside the tank.

>>34899810
>ZAKUs getting BTFO by tanks
because of course, we need to bash ZAKUs more because they aren'tr shitty enough as it is, GUNDAMs are superior just by tech alone, you need to make tanks able to take them down also. fuck whoever made this. being a ZAKUfag is suffering

>>34908858
Don't feel bad, the M61 is in essence the Federation equivalent of the Zaku when it comes to cannon fodder. I know some guys will say GMs are meant to fill that role, but how many times do GMs actually die to something that isn't a named character? No, the GMs are clearly a step up in importance over both the M61 and Zaku II.

>>34899720
You know what's better than a tank with two cannons?
Two tanks.

>>34908913

mmm, I don't think so

Because in almost all situations using the same weight to have a single bigger gun will outperform multiple smaller guns. 120mm is currently enough to defeat modern MBT armor, so fitting 2 60mm guns would be useless and fitting 2 120mm guns would require the tank to weigh a massive amount and be impractical to fuel/transport/build.

>>34899720
because one fucking shot does the job from just about any tank...

fuck I am sad it took me to say it...

fuck you cunts

>>34908858
I love zakus too, but lets be honest, Zaku II was the second weakest MS they had ever made. everything they made after was leagues better. that's why they lost the war, they decided to bet everything on zekes. if they had put their resources on DOMS they could have won earth.poor planning man.

>>34901977
Bruh its got armor, its got turret, its got tracks, it's a tank.

>>34904503
That actually makes it worse since unless you've got some preset convergence point only one of those shots is going to miss under ideal circumstances.

Besides, the rate of fire thing is actually plausible for anything that isn't an anti-tank gun

>>34908283
They outperformed white units during the Civil War and match performance for white units during every war since.

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>>34902554

>Babymode NC

>Using C4

Cheese using cheese ?

I signed up to squash scum like you.

>>34907417
I imagine they are supposed to fire different things like lasers for one, plasma for another etc..then a titan steps on it

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>>34908328
>dat ep where they all get hammered
>dat ep where Noel gets broken after remembering her awful past
T-that wasn't the same show right? The world in it is also still one of the most interesting ones I've seen in fiction.

>>34899720
because two tanks with one gun each will be more tactically flexible than one tank with two guns

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>>34909686
Bruh it's got a shoulder thing that goes up, it's got a pistol grip, it's got a muzzle break, it's an assault rifle

>>34909686
It's an SPAA.

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>>34899720
>Two cannons
fucking normie

Could we have a tank minigun?

A scaled up Minigun that fires tank rounds?

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>>34900022
lightweight metals maybe
i unno

It would be too much fun. And as every soldier knows, the military is serious business.

>>34899720
Now, im not saying it would be smart to have a tank with two cannons.
But.
It would at least be semi practical, if said tank were firing nothing but HE rounds.
Rather than penetrating enemy armor and disabling their tank, you would liquify the crew.
Two 120mm HE rounds hitting the same target at the same time would be devastating to the interior and i'd be damned if the crew survived.

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>>34911293
>then a titan steps on it

They've got models that are dedicated Titan-killers, namely the Shadowsword

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>>34911322
That it was.
The setting really was interesting with it's crazy mishmash of elements from all across the world. I still long for more, honestly.
>tfw we'll never get to see Noel marry her qt brown waifu

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>>34904028
>>34908495

>not enough MGS references

>>34908672
120 HESH round preferably to the belly of the tank. Crew is dead.

>>34899720
Two cannons means a bigger target and a need for more crew to reload them, the Soviets tried the idea of multiple cannons and it ended horribly.

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>>34912437
>a need for more crew to reload them

>Americans still can't figure how autoloaders

hahaha

>>34902452
those who hunt elves kind of counts I think

YOU MUST TURN THE WHOLE TURRET TO RELOAD THE MISSILES!

>five light tanks are better and faster

>>34900104
Fuck you, I made it.

>>34913024

What does turning the turret have to do with reloading?

>>34912432

How the fuck are you going to aim at the belly of the tank?

>>34912437
>the Soviets tried the idea of multiple cannons and it ended horribly.

In the early days of WWII

Everything they tried did horrible, because they were soviets, not because the ideas were bad.

>>34899800
>all this shit from 30-40 years ago
>doesn't account for advances in stabilization technology and spotting

Yeah... no. Still, one cannon is best cannon.

>>34899720
Do it with two railguns.

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>>34912454
Americans have into autoloaders and discover it is shit.

However, while the Americans, Germans, and Brits understand that it is shit, the French don't.

>>34899809
Today on Questions nobody asked
>You

>>34905934
Not true, contrary to popular belief.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dream_of_the_Fisherman%27s_Wife

I remember seeing an image with a before-after WW2 comparison of what weird shit Japan did and it's all basically the same, but I can't find it.

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>>34900104
>>34913114
nuh uh i made it

>>34915817
I posted it and it got deleted

>>34916174
Because it had tits and shit man, /k/ is a blue board

>>34915758

Hahaha, you actually believe this?

>>34903985

Why not just fire the first shot at the right place?

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>>34899800

>>34916535

Why don't we just give Infantrymen muskets? They should learn to hit the target with one shot.

>>34908283
>>>/pol/

>>34916489
Human loaders are faster, lighter, can switch ammunition, and isolate the gun from its ammunition store via blast doors, making the tank safer.

>>34908283
Properly trained and led they make a good account of themselves just as well as any other unit like what >>34909721 said.

[spoiler]Not that it counts for anything for being able to build a functioning civilization, >>34917442.[/spoiler]

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>>34899800
Thank you, that was very informative. It is for posts like these that I come on /k/. I shall make some myself in my area of competence.

On topic : having a higher first-hit probability seems pretty huge to me. How many hits is a tank expected to survive in an engagement ?

>>34911569
what the hell is this, tell me more

>>34911875
the issue with that is the wear and tear on the barrels, loading system, and rotation system would be insane.

>>34918396
It's shitty render from the internet, what do you want him to tell you?

>>34918396
Top secret iraqi project based on the Abrams.

>>34899720
basically two tanks with 1 cannon each can do more than 1 tank with 2 cannon.

simple right?

>>34899800
>Richard M.O.
Good source.

>>34917777
Depends on what tank in what engagement.
Also, it's best to describe it not in shots survived but in probability to survive a shot.
Let's take an extreme example: M1A2SEPV3 vs Crusader mk 1.
The areas where the 2 pdr can penetrate the abrams are very small and statistically unlikely to be hit. As most hits would be stopped, the Abrams could be said to be 99% immune to the 2 pdr- a hit could kill, but is extremely unlikely to.
On the other hand, the crusader is extremely vulnerable to MPAT (sabot is overkill), unless it prematurely detonates or bounces off. So Crusader is 0.1% immune to MPAT.
That's just for the first round. Armor degrades, and as it does so the percentages change too. But not by all that much.
So the question should be "how many rounds can an Abrams survive with 80% confidence?" To which the answer is~ 22 assuming no dependence and the rectally extracted numbers above.

>>34899771
I feel like this is that era's equivalent of an IFV with ATGMs for anti-tank.

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>>34900549
This was before stabilization became good. They did lots of exhaustive trials that showed the strv 103 had target acquisition completely on par with turreted tanks of the era. The benefits were a super low profile, ease of manufacture etc. Example: it has an absurd fire rate of 1 shot/3 seconds which can be kept up until the magazine runs out by holding the reload button and trigger down simultaneously.

The driver(s) had great control of the really good suspension, and that tech went into the CV90 later on.

After the strv 103 there were a whole of crazy experimental vehicles that never saw production but gave a lot of valuable data.

>>34902968
No. Fucking kys

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This one apparently had gun elevation, and suspension cranked up to 11 on a 0-10 scale of crazyness.

>>34899720
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VT_tank

>>34899771
and the lee sucked balls hard.

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>>34899809
In World of tanks it only has 1mm of armor all around. Living on the edge!

>>34917519
Can operate another crewmans position, can help maintain the vehicle, can pull another wounded crew member out of a damaged vehicle. The list goes on

>>34922648

It was a designed as a stopgap, served as a stopgap, and was replaced quickly once the stopgap stopped being necessary.

It did its job.

>>34917777
Between two contempory tanks? If the round penetrates just one. Modern rounds have powerful after-armor effects. The first-hit probability is not worth the extra weight and size incurred by the extra gun. You can just have a second tank instead.

>>34922648
>and the lee sucked balls hard

It was arguably the best tank to serve in North Africa until the Sherman came around. In wide open spaces you rarely run the risk of being rapidly flanked, ie the limited traverse of the 75mm gun is rarely an issue. It fired a powerful AP round, as well as an HE round that was damn-near unmatched by any tank it fought alongside or faced. It's 37mm gun provided a decent close-in weapon to deal with softer targets such as trucks, and was fully stabilized.

>>34899810
God, I love feddie propaganda, put enough shots down range and even the zaku falls, just don't show the fifty dead tanks on fire.

>>34923459
>>34899810
also, it looks like those zekes on the hill are still using zero-g AMBAC when they aim, bringing that autocannon together above the head and lowering onto the target- that's a microgravity stabilisation maneuver, an MS tuned for land operation would just bring the cannon across and up onto the target

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>>34899720

Because we can build a tank with one gun that fires twice as fast.

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>>34923516
>autoloader
>fires twice as fast

>>34903458
that's not a tank tho

So why not make a 5 barrel 75mm Gatling cannon and put it on a tank? The shear amount of Dakka makes me smile.

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The Emperor would like to have a word with you.

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Oops wrong image.

>>34923713
You'll run out of ammo or targets before heat becomes a problem with 75mm.

What about a fully automatic low pressure 120mm mortar however? Especially with guided ammunition, that would essentially give you a rolling air strike dispenser.

>>34912346
it also has standoff range, most titans mount mid-range weapons and rely on void shields to tank the sporadic stand-off fire that can actually draw line of sight as the titan advances the line by itself, this is the niche the shadowsword fills, poking holes in void shields so it doesn't have to get close to kill a titan

>>34911569
that thing has a tank for a turret and mounts a revolver battleship gun, the jews did this
>shitty render, fuck, had me fooled

>>34923623
theoretically an auto-loader could fire a 120mm round per second easily. you just have to buy them from kuka and not mess around with 40yo soviet tech.

>>34907417
8

you forgot the co-axial autocannon

>>34924775
>Not 11 barrels of RIGHTEOUS FURY

Then theres the variant that can take
>2 five barreled heavy gatling cannons
>5 dual heavy rocket machineguns or flamers
>4 anti armour laser cannons

Stormlord, for when you absolutely, positively need to kill every heretic and xeno in a kilometre radius in under a minute

>>34899800
DELET DIS
OVER-UNDER RAILGUN TANKS NOW!

>>34922690
>Potato tanks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKG94ouuGwQ

>Crew died from MG fire
>APHE shells just fly through the metal without exploding

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>>34902968
>cg

>>34899720
It was globally agreed upon by all countries post WW2 that no one power should have that much dakka on a tank.

>>34916489
Just look at the tank designs.

>>34904028

because submarines exist

>>34902084
>What are thermal sights

But your second point is correct

>>34916607
It's different when you can put a laser rangefinder, thermal sights, and a computerized fire control system on a tank.

>>34929210
The more of it I see, the less I hate it.
Hell, FA:G was downright good. Then again it did switch to full 2D at appropriate times.

>>34914824
More hesh to one side of the tank

>no "gee two cannons?!" post
I am disappointed in you this day /k/

>>34902554
Actually, an unshaped charge to the glacis plate generally won't penetrate armor.

File: iwantone.png (4MB, 2020x1700px) Image search: [Google]

4MB, 2020x1700px

>Grizzly, online and rolling!