FMJ vs Hardcast

>>34853303
Not true, one has a full metal jacket and the other is hard cast.

>>34853315
Fuddlore

>>34853303
Difference is terms of what? In terms of terminal ballistics, they're going to be about the same unless you drive them so fast that the hardcast deforms. In terms of internal ballistics, one will cause copper fouling while the other will cause lead fouling, but gas checks are supposed to help prevent lead fouling.

>>34853421
>they're going to be about the same

The difference is the jacket.
Lead is a soft metal and a high velocity will start to warp and deform, impacting accuracy and wound channels

>>34853489
>Lead is a soft metal
Bullets are made of a lead alloy with other elements like antimony to make them harder. Depending on the intended velocity, the manufacturer will use a harder or softer lead alloy to limit expansion.

Why do people seem to prefer hard cast over FMJ for animals?

>>34853530
Because they are stupid.
>>34853468
The only reason I can think of for a difference in performance would be different coefficients of friction, but both FMJ and hardcast bullets have been used with great success for many years.

Jackets rip off of bullets when going through, and unless properly constructed, don't perform properly. Hard cast are made for deep penetration and not deforming an appreciable amount. Full copper/brass solids are probably the best, IMO.

>>34853876
An FMJ has literally never separated and a flat meplat is a flat meplat.

Technically they are.

Practically, its the same. Most of use are just gonna use 'em for shooting paper targets, dumb animals and we're lucky, negroes.

>>34853303
>posting a cannelured bullet and a non cannelured bullet and calling them the same
Man, sure is 4chan in here.

>>34856233
The cannulure doesn't make that much difference. It just serves to help crimping and serve as a groove for lubricant, if you use lubricant.

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SEVEN
SIX
TWO
MILLIMETER
FULL

METAL

JACKET

>>34853303
>hard cast
>enjoying leading your barrel
>not using a superior gas check and allowing the barrel to properly sewage your bullet
I bet you think rifled slugs improve accuracy, too

>>34858060
>>34856233
It's obvious the op was talking terminal ballistics.

>>34858306
Hopefully because once it comes to casting your own bullets or using wad cutters he starts losing ground

I do alot of reloading and want to begin to cast my own bullets, Ive already done soft lead for muzzle loaders.
But my question is this, hard cast vs poly coating soft lead.
I want to do handgun calibers, 9mm, 40 cal, 45 acp and 38 spl.
Also why has nobody made poly coated musket balls?

>>34860013
Fuck coating. If you plan to exceed 1200 FPS, comsider alloying tin and using gas checks. My recommendation, don't exceed 1200 FPS. Everything you listed will be perfectly happy at subsonic velocities.

>>34860027
Is it vital to use a consistent tin to lead ratio? What if my ratio constantly varies while casting?

>>34853530
Because out of your traditional magnum revolver rounds or things like .30-30 a hardcast bullet will deform and expand, thus providing a much improved wound channel over FMJ.

Because hardcast bullets generally have a very large meplat, which causes more tissue damage than a small meplat or round-nosed FMJ bullet.

Because hardcast bullets generally weigh more than FMJ bullets in any given caliber (230gr FMJ vs 255gr hardcast in .45acp, 250gr FMJ vs 395gr hardcast in .454cas, etc), meaning they tend to transfer more energy when combined with their propensity to expand and large meplat.

>>34853530
Because hardcast is still way softer than a copper jacket

>>34860041
Yes

Your bullet weights will vary a lot leading to piss-poor accuracy, and a high-tin bullet has a higher likelihood of shattering on impact.

>>34853529
Bullets also have copper jackets. This prevents lead fouling.

>>34860069
Jackets are actually for pressure and hardness, not to prevent lead fouling. A properly sized soft lead bullet will deposit the same amount or less metal into your bore as a copper jacket. Too high of a hardness actually leads to excessive fouling.

>>34860087
The fact remains that FMJ is easier on guns than 100% lead bullets

>>34853303
>what is fouling
There is literally no difference besides it becoming even more of a pain the ass to maintain the bore.

>>34853303
>>34860106
Only at high velocities. Which is negated by adding tin to your mix. If you're rolling your own, there is no reason to ever use jacketed bullets for a pistol. Terminal effect is good, the softer lead will allow plenty of expansion. By alloying enough tin you prevent ANY lead fouling. The only time you need a jacket is when you're looking at high velocity and a very rapid pressure curve, two things that can make a soft lead projectile explode when it leaves the barrel.
Copper jackets in pistol rounds are only there to provide a hard coat to protect the bullet prior to being fired.

>>34860120
Wrong again. A properly sized lead bullet does not foul the bore.

>>34860149
If rapid expansion is what you desire, hollow points will accommodate you. They are jacketed, with a hole at the tip to promote rapid deformation. The copper jacket still helps to keep lead fouling to minimal levels.

>>34860013
Unless you are going to push you .40 S&W really hot, you don't need to powder coat your bullets. As >>34860027 pointed out, you should be able to load cast bullets fairly well without the need to powder coat. If you get into shooting low velocity rifles or high velocity handgun rounds, it starts paying off.

>Also why has nobody made poly coated musket balls?
Putting a little thought into this, I came with the conclusion that the benefits are far outweighed by the trouble. I don't push my musket balls anywhere near hard enough to make leading an issue, at least when compared to black powder fouling so why would I bother powder coating my musket bullets. Also I would be worried that the powder coat may cause a cook off should a flake of it come off and ignite in the barrel.

>>34853303
How much farther will these shoot than hollow points?

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>>34853315

>>34860248
There's more to powder coating than just fouling.

It serves as a lubricant. I don't know the last time you fucked with bullet lubes, but dry-tumble powder coating is a fuckload faster, cleaner, and easier than messing with liquid alox.

>>34858052
damn it..came here to post this.

>>34860328
I have always used a lubrisizer for lubing bullets so I don't have any experience with liquid alox as a direct lubing method. I do powder coat my pistol bullets though, mostly because I started with 7.62x25 and I was never able to keep it from leading the barrel when shooting just traditional cast and lube bullets. Rifle bullets get a mix of FMJ, traditional cast or powder coating depending on the cartridge.

As for the muskets, I shoot those in competition and we don't wait for minutes in between shots instead we are loading immediately after the last shot. I don't want anything that could cause the powder to ignite while I have my hand anywhere near the muzzle.
Also leading in the barrel is far outweighed to black powder fouling in concerns for accuracy and clean up.

>>34860013
I've had a lot of trouble with leading in 9mm without poly coating, even with really hard alloys and all sorts of lubes. .38 spl worked fine with my alloys. 9mm is just weirdly difficult to shoot cast bullets in, from my understanding. I've never tried .40 or .45.

Ok guys when it comes to the ease of casting out thousands of these handgun rounds (9mm, 40 cal, 45 acp and 38 spl).
Poly coating vs hard cast.
Im looking as ease of production, performance, then price in that order.
Also Im getting my lead from the gun range just picking up the lead and melting it, tossing out the junk. I get about 50 pounds in 10 minutes, half of which is actual lead.

>>34860059
About what ratio of lead to tin is good? Also what is a good price for tin.

>>34853303
Don't shoot unjacketed lead bullets in a stock Glock barrel.

>>34854241
>FMJ
>never seperated
what is .223 out of 20inch?

>>34854241
>An FMJ has literally never separated
Fragmentation would like a word with you

>>34862050
Tin for making alloys hard is sorta expensive, but powder coating is time consuming. You have to fully coat the entire batch in powder, then one by one pull the bullets out of the powder using forceps (or some other pointy tool to minimize the powder you're knocking off) and stand them upright on a tray to bake.

Range lead is pretty soft and I'd recommend one process or the other.

>>34862065
THIS!!!

or any polygonal barrel!!!

>>34853303
Pretty sure most standard FMJs will lose the jacket when pushed to magnum velocities.

Lead bullets introduce bullet lube, which produces additional smoke (exactly how much varies by lube). Said smoke can contribute to depositions all over the action of a firearm as well, and I'm unsure how much of that is lead from a poor bullet-bore seal.

Plated/coated hardcast lead addresses this issue, but you might be able to find a lube that doesn't really make smoke.

>>34862423
Umm what? Even cheap 7.62x39 FMJ at greater than 2400FPS doesn't separate.

>>34862065
>Don't shoot unjacketed lead bullets in a stock Glock barrel.
well that doesn't sound like perfection at all

>>34862065
This is fuddlore. if your cast boolits properly obturate, there is no difference between shooting them down a poly and a lands/grooves rifled barrel. just periodically check that your bore isnt collecting lead and you are good to go. I shot many thousands of rounds of cast reloads from my g21.

>>34862050
You're gonna also want antimony in it. In order to get it usably hard without being brittle.

The "best" bullet alloy is Linotype, which is 84% lead, 12% antimony, and 4% tin. With water quenching it's good to about 16 BHN, regular drops will drop around 14 BHN.

Wheelweight lead is the next best, and while there's no set-in-stone alloy it's going to hover around 84/7/7. A little more brittle and a little less dense compared to linotype but a fuckload cheaper.

I buy pre-smelted lead from other people and/or just clean out my local club's backstop for lead, it's so rare to even find pure metals to start an alloy with it's not worth fucking with.

>>34864528
linotype is typically 21-22bhn.

>>34862282
>You have to fully coat the entire batch in powder, then one by one pull the bullets out of the powder using forceps (or some other pointy tool to minimize the powder you're knocking off) and stand them upright on a tray to bake.
lolwut

I dump them in a used Cool Whip tub with a bit of powder, shake the piss out of it, then dump it out on a baker's rack. That then goes in a toaster oven, 400* for 20 minutes. When the rack comes out they get unceremoniously upended into a 5-gallon bucket half full of water with a rag stuffed in the bottom to keep them from deforming.

I can prep around 350 .44mag bullets for baking in around 45 seconds, and since my toaster oven is a 2-tray model I can produce around 1100 coated bullets an hour.

>>34864545
Whoops, yes. This is correct.

I forgot that most people cut their linotype somewhere close to 50/50 with either pure lead or wheelweight lead since it hasn't been readily/cheaply available in 40 years.

>>34864560
>>34864528
Ok thanks guys. Im going to try both alloy cast and poly coating.
Can I use soft lead for poly coated? And I dont have to lube right? Also what is the velocity limit?

>>34864607
You can use soft lead within reason. I've had decent success with 10 BHN and excellent success with anything 12+ BHN.

As long as you use a polymer based powdercoat it will serve as lube. DO NOT use Harbor Freight powdercoat, it (or at least some of the colors) contains abrasives. 1 pound of PC powder will do tens of thousands of bullets doing a dry tumble method (in either a vibratory tumbler or just in a pan being shaken by hand).

I have pushed double-coated bullets dropped by Accurate Moulds' 70gr grooveless .224" mould to 3050fps with acceptable accuracy and no fouling, but that was a bullet designed specifically for powdercoating to be shot through AR's. The velocity limit will depend heavily on the bullet design and your gun. A good example of this is I have a .44mag load that doesn't leave a single trace of fouling in my SBH but will leave my 629's bore looking like the restroom in a group home. You should still use gas checks with "magnum" or near-book-max loads, and you can either PC over them or crimp them on after (I crimp after).

You should still size PC'd bullets.

>>34864685

Im also thinking about using poly coated for .357 medium velocity, 158 Gr with 14.5gr of H110 so pretty meh, just plinking tho.
Also wanted to try subsonic 308s for when I get a suppressor, for my FAL and subsonic x39 for a CZ527.
The poly coated should offer better effectiveness than copper jacketed at the low velocity right?

>>34864779
Better effectiveness at what?

If you're talking terminal performance, it depends entirely on the bullet design. A (factory) hollowpointed NOE 247 dropping at ~215, travelling ~800fps (sub .308 or .300blk), will expand to >1" while still achieving >20" of penetration in wet newspaper. Meanwhile a standard Lyman 230gr dropping at 225, travelling at ~800fps (sub .308 or .300blk), will poke a .30cal hole through whatever you're shooting at and won't deform significantly or upset and tumble.

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>>34864779
Powder coating holds up very well. these 164gr pills are cast from clip on ww's and were shot from a 16" levergun