Conscription

Countries with conscription are usually one or more of the following
>poor
>authoritarian
>small population
>geopolitically in a bad situation
and make do with what they have, europe began to disarm itself after the soviet union collapsed and now with russia acting hostile some politicians are scared, reverting decisions that were made with too much haste only two decades ago. Western countries with conscription haven't been involved in much fighting recently so it's hard to judge the quality of the troops, but it's probably rather obvious that professional troops who receive continuous training are better.

>Nowdays some countries have bought back limited conscription or are considering it. Why?

Because they don't have enough volunteers showing up to fill the positions they need filled.

>>34796495
It can be necessary for some smaller countries but it should be a last resort. Also many countries just use it as a way to hide youth unemployment.

Conscripts are bad. They only serve to act as cannon fodder and their loyalty is allways at question since they were forced into the armed forces and might not have the stomach for warfare and thus will desert or defect when the opportunity presents itself.

Its why many countries who want to modernise their forces opt to move away from conscription towards a more voluntary force.

>>34796495
As long as large numbers of low and medium level trained personell are necessary or useful, conscription is the best way to generate it, both during the war and to create reserves in advance. That's the reason why almost all states expecting or preparing for conflict against a peer enemy still have conscription. The united states moved away from it because they could afford it, being separated from their peer enemy by a nice big ocean and a bunch of missiles, and concentrated on more technological force instead, which has different personell requirements.

>>34796607
It's basically opposite in Denmark where I did 4 months of conscription. People are on waiting lists to get in today.
It works more as a general introduction to the military for those interested and provides a good pool of people for the professional military to recruit from. It also weeds the worst retards out, preventing them from continuing into further training, and gets a good bunch of the youth in good shape.

7/10 had fun there

>>34796571
>geopolitically in a bad situation
Read: if you really need an army for survival, you have conscription
>>34796662
Conscript armies since the early modern age prove you wrong. (To be fair, disciplining was a bit harsher back then). Fair conscription actually enhances morale in a necessary war, since those fighting and risking their lives can now be certain they're not carrying any free riders who don't.

>>34796571
mostly true, but as a Norwegian I loved conscription. Just wish they did like Switzerland and offered your rifle when you were done. Miss my 416

conscripts win world wars.

proffesional welfare queens are for smacking oil out of poor people in 3rd world countries.

once the big wars come, conscription armies have the infrastructure, support, knowledge and systems in place for fast mass conscription.

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conscription in Finland:
>cost effective
>soldiers are motivated to fight for own country
>good for societal cohesion

>>34796804
Nukes win world wars.
Professionals win conventional wars.

Conscripts are great for fluffing the kill-counts of opposing professional tank crews, strike fighter pilots, etc.

>>34796843
Your professionally armed tanks and fighters will be provided supply, security, infantry support, etc. etc. by conscripts. A conventional army needs both the professional elites and the conscripted numbers.

>>34796843
yeah look at all the accomplishments of proffesional armies

brits in ww1 before the draft. brits in ww2 before the draft.

proffesional soldiers are just as much of cannonfodder than anyone else. all you are as infantry is a guy that carries a weapon into position. your pay doesnt matter, and your as long as your motivated enough to not desert its good.

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>>34796832

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>>34796913

>>34796571
This

>>34796495
It's fine for small European countries with a long martial tradition, but it was/would be a disaster in the US. It would basically be like Russian conscription or prison if it were reintroduced, and the majority are against it anyway.

A volunteer army will always, always, ALWAYS have better training, unit cohesion, and morale than one made up of people who don't want to be there and aren't willing to kill. The only thing conscription is good for is last-ditch zerging. Even then, the ones who survive will hate the government for the rest of their lives, and pass down that hatred to their children, taking generations to subside. In the meantime, you've robbed your industry of labor and unskilled workers, stymied the training and education of skilled workers, and slowed your population growth.

Forced military service: not even once.

>>34797634
For a lot of small countries conscription is purely a defensive measure. The only time a conscript in such country is going to fight is if their homeland is invaded. A purely volunteer military isn't going to be enough to act as a deterrent from foreign aggression if the population of your country is only a couple million.

>>34796662
>>34796843
>>34797634
Ameritards without historical education beyond the US of A pls stop talking about things you don't understand.

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>>34797792
>O B S E S S E D

I was a conscript. Most people I know hated it but think of their time in the army fondly due to all the shit you had to go through. None would serve again.

Conscripts are a joke compared to regulars, and really are there to take bullets and slow things down. A good chunk of the good people I know will get out if it ever gets hairy. There's also a video of some regular US dudes and our conscripts on exercise and it's really embarrassing for my country desu. They should have trained us in gorilla warfare or something if they actually wanted effectiveness.

If you want more modern examples of wars fought with conscripts, look at Yugoslavia or Chechnya. The Chechen War was fought with conscripts, and look at how well that turned out.

>>34796495
It's an outdated practice that only 3rd world shitholes cling to.
If you struggle to amass a decently-sized volunteer military, your country probably isn't worth fighting for in the first place.

>>34796757
Denmark isnt as cucked as other western nations, especially in the patriotic department.

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>>34796495
>What does /k/ think about conscription?
It's great fun, helps people of the country unite a bit closer to each other, keeps military from becoming this shady "elite group", helps fight isolation and depression, plus helps fats get fit.

>Do conscripts have place on modern battlefield?
Yup.

>Nowdays some countries have bought back limited conscription or are considering it. Why?
Because Russia's acting like a dick. Again.
And NATO won't be everywhere at once / won't even help ya necessarily.

>If YOUR country had conscription and you would have to serve, what would be your take on it?
It does, I served, and now I'd pay to get back for good. Alas, that's a no go, and I'm way past expiration date to become a pro.

>>34798161
it's not just a matter of manpower always.
Conscription system can also be a huge money-saver. On top of that, some kids literally don't know what they want of life before they step into the boots, and realize their "true calling" or whatever when serving.

Talking purely about my own country, Finland here, which according to some recent, American (?) based study was ranked in the top-5 nations when it came to their citizens willingness to fight for their country, with ~75% positive answers. People can nitpick about tons of shit, but ultimately we do dig our land and 80% of all males (and some 500 females) the age of 18 still do serve the 6-12 months each year, no matter that the mil-service has practically been reduced to a voluntary system in all but name.

tl;dr: it just works when done right, and saves everyone's money.

>>34798139
What country? And what branch of US? Im assuming Army

>>34801242
The 500 females should be discarded.

>>34796495
Fuck conscription. Everyone should be free to spend their time as they damn well please, as long as they don't step on anyone else's rights.

>>34796495
Not down with the idea of being forced to serve corporate overlords.

>>34804981
It's a bit difficult for countries like South Korea and Finland. If there is no conscription there is a very small but very real possibility that if war does arrive on your footstep you want to be able to arm as many men as possible (even if they are conscripts). For a country like Finland the deterrent is pretty valuable since unlike Ukraine it is difficult for Russia to destabilize the country because there is no significant russian minded minority or anti-goverment organizations that they could supply and fund to help overthrow the local goverment. If Russia were to attack Finland it would be forced to conventional warfare. You can make all the possible theories you like about the military prowess of Finland but there are almost no natural riches to plunder and no way to get internal help in a significant way and that combined with the ability on paper to arm a lot of people makes conquering Finland not really worthwhile while certainly doable.

>>34805055
If countries can't defend themselves with professional militaries or volunteers, then they deserve to crash and burn. Or get into a military alliance.

>>34796495
Americunt here.
No conscription unless America is doing very poorly in ww3, in which case it's probably more likely a "knock it off or DA NOOKZ" situation. I'd be down for conscription if I got to take the gear home after the war was won
>Implying the war was won
I'd be down for conscription if I got to go awol towards the end when things really aren't going so well and keep my gear and live innawoods scalping the Chinese overlords who dare rumble in my jungle. Anyone want in? I'm friendly as all hell and don't wanna rape anybody, just don't come into my cabin after 10pm because there's a high chance I'm cranking it to some nudey mags nahm saying?

>>34805079
Make us, bitch.

>>34805079
Again for countries like south korea and Finland it would be extremely hard to defend the border in wartime even if you were a NATO member if you don't have conscription. It's not like the US or NATO in general has the amount of people or ordnance ready at hand if the norkies decided to attack. There would still have to be massive mobilization and for Finland especially it woul be extremely hard even if they were a NATO member because the population density is extremely low so you would need quite a few people to mount even a semi believable defence (not to mention due to the proximity of russian bases to the border they could mobilize pretty massive numbers pretty fast).

>>34796495
>what does /k/ think about slavery

>>34796495
>Nowdays some countries have bought back limited conscription or are considering it. Why?
Because the professionals didn't have a recruitment base. With conscription and professionals, the latter recruit from the first.

>>34805150
Again, then they deserve to burn.

I will not condone forced labour no matter what kind of a fucking sob story you spin for me. Kill yourself, you commie fuck.

>>34798139
>They should have trained us in gorilla warfare or something if they actually wanted effectiveness.

During my conscription there was a lot of focus on going innawoods and ambushing convoys.

>>34796495
Immoral and basically slavery. How many young men died because of some Jew banker kike war such as ww2 or ww1 or the civil war?

>>34805212
>burgers

>>34805205
So you would let potentially who knows how many people die and suffer for the sake of idealism? The goverment and the country exist for the sake of protecting the people and offering them a good quality of life. If your country gets annexed historically you have a tendency of getting buttfucked pretty brutally.

>>34805229
>protecting the people
>by getting them killed
Checks out.

>>34805229
>So you would let potentially who knows how many people die and suffer for the sake of idealism?
Ignoring the fact that you're the one supporting forcing them to die in the front lines in the first place, yes. Any country that would force its populace to take up arms in its defence on the pain of death or imprisonment is not a country worth defending.
>The goverment and the country exist for the sake of protecting the people and offering them a good quality of life.
If we ignore the fact that they're the ones robbing people and forcing them to fight and die, sure. If they're such a good guy, surely they wouldn't have to force people to fight for them.
>If your country gets annexed historically you have a tendency of getting buttfucked pretty brutally.
You're already being buttfucked brutally. Or doesn't "do what we tell you or we'll kill you" fit your definition of "brutally buttfucked"?

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>>34796495
Is he the modern version of the WWII Waffen SS "OWO WHAT'S THIS" guy?

>>34805245
>>34805257
That's exactly what happened during ww2 for Finland though. Just about everyone agrees that Finland would have gotten fucked H A R D if they did get conquered by Stalin. Hell they even had plans on dispersing the vast majority of the population of Finland throughout the Soviet Union effectively killing the national identity and the culture of the country. Through the sacrifices of the people the identity and culture and independence and human rights were defended. Some have to die to protect future generations. The only reason there isn't a draft in the US is because times haven't been that dire in a long time but if things somehow did get that bad without a nuclear war you can bet your ass they would do exactly that.

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>>34805257
You some kind of philosopher or something?

>>34805276
>The only reason there isn't a draft in the US is because times haven't been that dire in a long time but if things somehow did get that bad without a nuclear war you can bet your ass they would do exactly that.
And I would fight them just as I would anyone else who tried to wrongfully imprison or harm me.

>>34797792
We've still got tons of people who hate the American government because they or their parents were drafted for Nam.

>>34805285
You fight alone, you will die alone for your exceptionally lofty teenage ideals.

>>34796495
>If YOUR country had conscription and you would have to serve, what would be your take on it?
After WWI the US considered conscription but settled on a camp program that allowed civilians to receive military training without the obligation to serve. You could even earn an NCO or Officer commission in the Reserves by completing three or four summer camps. Seeing how popular commercial courses have become, I imagine a lot of Americans would still do it.

>>34805293
Maybe. Maybe not. The woods are large, and at least I'll take some of the fuckers down with me.

>>34796495
I dunno, I hope it isn't as bad as anons say, my dad is forcing me to go to Korea and serve despite me not speaking or reading any Korean.

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>>34796495
Reading all the american answers here "das slavery" and keking.
You need to understand that we europeans hate most of our neighbors, in most cases, so it's ingrained in our psyches that when the shitstorm begins, we have to defend our clay. Sure, national sentiment is at an all time low right now across most of europe, but it's still a huge factor, and why conscription would still work. Especially in Eastern yuro, with the rebirth of the great bear.

>>34805319
>dad
>forcing
>an adult.
Grow a pair, fagboy.

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>>34805264

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>>34805264
>>34805341

>>34805335
No money and I failed out of college so it's either I deal with it for two years or I get kicked out with nothing.

>>34805276
You realize the only reason the draft in the US happened was because during lincolns presidency the overwhelming majority of northerners wanted nothing to do with a war against the South and started actively supplying the South with material and men, especially the states of Illinois, ohio and new York who just years before were the core states that got him elected. In a last desperate attempt to feed his warmongering campaign to keep the voluntary union together by use of terrorism and force, he implemented the draft which was so unpopular that people started riots across the country like the New York draft riots. In short the American draft is rooted in the evils of a power hungry madman and goes against everything the country was founded on entirely. If a modern draft were to actively start up, I would feel compelled to fire upon anyone attempting to enforce such an edict.

>>34796662
>and thus will desert or defect when the opportunity presents itself.

Sounds like they got the right idea. I was a conscripted, and later volunteered, but if I always put my life and my well-being above everything

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>>34805264
>>34805341
>>34805348

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>>34805264
>>34805341
>>34805348
>>34805377

>>34797945
this isn't /o/, please contain your autism.

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>>34796495
>Do conscripts have place on modern battlefield?

No because it would just expose your military force as an infantry dominate forces instead of a mechanized one without the cohesion of combined arms.

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>>34805264
>>34805341
>>34805348
>>34805377
>>34805398

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>>34805558

Just noticed I messed up when making the first two, set the quality to 5% each... here's all three in regular quality

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>>34805609

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>>34805628

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>>34805609
>>34805628
>>34805646

>>34805714

What do you think would this man say if he'd had known that almost a century later people would use his photograph to make fun of transvestites on some global information network?

>>34796662
when father has to stand up and fight for their homeland and wife and kids.

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>>34796495
>What does /k/ think about conscription?
I think a general one-year-odd conscription is a great idea.

I think school should teach a person to think and act individualistically, and conscription should teach a person to think and act hierarchically and socially.

In times of peace and safety, it's all well and good to run around embracing, groping, and finger-fucking freedom, but when a crisis occurs, people generally lack any sense of how to act.

In my hypothetical new country, this is where conscription would come in, giving people the skills that they can automatically fall back on. Of course, conscription would be more generalised than just shooting straight, and there'd be more professions represented than just soldiering. You'd have the emergency services represented as well, people doing a year of firefighting, or emergency medical/paramedic training, or even paramilitary policing.

Then when a crisis hits, people can come forward and volunteer with actual, practical skills as well as a knowledge of a common system of hierarchy to fall into line with. In my situation here in Australia, that would be bushfires. If a quarter of the general public had firefighting skills, and 10% of those people volunteered during a bushfire, you'd have tens of thousands of extra people on call in any one location.

If riots happened, people with policing skills could self-mobilise like the rooftop Koreans. Same with flooding, terrorist attacks, long-term power outages where you need people doing welfare checks on the elderly, basically any crisis you'd have people with generalist skills already out there.

>>34805952
good stuff. But the government only has extra money to train ppl when they don't have a welfare state.

>>34796495

Advantages of conscription:
>In good times instills patriotism
>Teaches people about sacrifice and some very basic shit
>Teaches people about PT and its importance
>Serves as a social mixer where economic classes don't matter as much and increases social mobility
>Gives combat preparation for the whole population
>Creates a pool of already trained recruits
>Lets people see that the army is something more than just meatheads with expensive toys

Disadvantages
>Its forced, fuck forcing shit into people
>In bad times instills rebellion
>If your army is shit, the overall image of it decreases to the floor
>It's costs a lot of money to keep going and to have a decent conscription training
>Teaches organization and discipline to possible criminals and rebels

As with many things in life, is not so much as if its inherently bad but rather rather seeing how do you intend to answer these questions

>What do you want?
>What do you need?
>What can you afford?
>What's the best way to execute it?

Answer any of these wrong and you get bad stuff that in the short or long run becomes a waste of time and resources and you will have to shut down eventually.

>>34806005
>But the government only has extra money to train ppl when they don't have a welfare state.
But that's wrong...

15 years mandatory military education and service from the age of 12. Instill rabid nationalism as the cornerstone of education, as well as the principle that the needs of the pack outweigh the needs of the individual. Mandatory community service and charity. Drop outs are relegated to manual and/or simple labor. Only upon graduating will you be allowed to own property, reproduce, and vote.

Find a flaw

>>34806047

So how do you fund all that? Who runs the country? When do you study and get a degree?

You need civilians to keep the wheels turning.

>>34805285
>>34805309
You are the definition of a piece of shit. If your country calls you to arms, in order to bare their flag and wear their uniform, and you would instead seek to act as a traitor to your kin and countrymen. What the fuck is wrong with you?

>>34806074

>Implying you can't get a degree while in the military
>Implying you just can't increase the minwage over 500%m , keep interests at0,01% for 100 years and make castles out of printed money
>Implying the military can't run a country in a centralized committee

Do you even want your citizenship?

lmao lolbertarians really should be thrown out of helicopters

service really should guarantee your citizenship and freedom

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>>34797634
>A volunteer army will always, always, ALWAYS have better training, unit cohesion, and morale than one made up of people who don't want to be there and aren't willing to kill.

Yes. Arab legion was extremely successful in dealing with Israeli conscripts in 1948 and 50's.

Conscription is good for society but bad for militaries.

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>>34806047
>Find a flaw
I've checked, and I cannot find a single one.

t. Isaias Afwerki, President of Eritrea

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>>34797634
>A volunteer army will always, always, ALWAYS have better training, unit cohesion, and morale

The problem with professional militaries is that the people with most potential won't sign up since, hell, why should they? They can just go to uni/college and live a merry life. With consciption you get people from all walks of life, this includes the people who really are smart and have organizational and problem solving skills.

Conscripts can perform just as good as professionals. It's just a matter of how you handle it all.

Since I'm a former Swedish conscript and current Swedish soldier with a varied background in our armed forces as well as hopefully a future armed forces nurse I feel that I have a qualified opinion in this question.

For those of you not educated on the question the Swedish army was a conscript army, turned into a professional army and is now turning hybrid.

>>34796571
> obvious that professional troops who receive continuous training are better
This isn't as obvious as many think it is. I've met and trained with other nations professional forces and they are not always better than the soldiers I that Swedish conscription turned out. You can do a lot with 11-15 months of continuous training, especially if you have good training techniques and a lot of field time. Of course, a high-end professional unit with the same training schedule but over several years will be better, but most professional units are not in that range.

>>34796607
don't have enough volunteers
This is exactly the problem. The previous government pushed professionalism plans through too fast.
>>34796662
>Conscripts are bad. They only serve to act as cannon fodder
I don't think you have any insight into modern training methods of well-off western conscript nations.
>>34796864
This is exactly what I think. I think conscripts can fill many low to medium qualified positions like logistics, static security, infantry squads, etc. and leave highly qualified positions like recon, sabotage troops, technically difficult positions and such to professional troops. A good, economical and effective way.

>>34806166

Did you suck Laeffis cock?

>>34796495
Americans had botched conscription ever since the end of the WW2 so they think it sucks. The reality is little bit different.
Conscripts are shit at expeditionary warfare. If you want to send conscripts to the jungle or desert god knows when they're going to perform like shit, case in point being Korea - where conscripts fighting in godforsaken land of horrible smell and harsh winters suffered from horrible morale. Add the fact that as I've mentioned - conscription was botched due to public pressure with military providing 2 years of waste of time instead of 2 years of well-disciplined training(in the first battles of the Korean war many soldiers reported that their M1's went "click" and nothing happen, as it turned out they couldn't assemble the gun properly after field strip).

British understood this very well, which is why they've only drafted anybody in the time of dire need - when they were fighting Zulus or Sudanese jihadists in the 1880's and 1890's they just sent their professional army to do colonial policing. British Empire for a very long time fought only expeditionary wars, therefore conscripts were useless since they perform horribly in such wars.

However, in proper, continental wars, conscription is the only way to build up reserve base before the war starts. The good example here being France in the 1890's to WW1 where there was quite long debate about introducing 3-years long draft(like Germans had) exactly because they wanted to enlarge their reserve base. When you're fighting for your nation's survival, motivation and morale are high anyway, and marginally worse training of those soldiers doesn't matter at all because of the numbers you can muster - just a quick math:

Estonia with drafted army has about 20k soldiers in active service and whole 270k soldiers in reserve. This means they can mobilize 15 times the number of soldiers they have currently.

The US has 1,2M soldiers in active service and 800k reservists(cont)

>do conscripts have a place in the modern battlefield
Everything you need to know can be taught in a few weeks, besides some specialized roles. Rest can't really be taught in peace, or requires far more resources and time, and ordinary professional soldiers don't get that training anyway.
In a full-scale conflict, there's little practical difference between professional soldiers and conscripts.
For low-scale conflicts, regulars are obviously better, but this is easily solved by having a professional core backed by conscripts.
Conscript army is simply cheaper and provides you with a manpower pool that you can easily tap into if the need comes.
It also provides social benefits.

>>34806177
Which means that in the worst conditions they can mobilize and increase the army size by 1,6 times. Then they have to train their new recruits from ground-up.

Now the obvious difference is that the US has population of some 300 million people while Estonia has just 1,3 million but you can see the purpose of conscription here - if Estonia would mobilize their entire reserves, they have the army of the size of 1/3rd of entire Russian Army(which is their main and only possible enemy in the area) allowing them to defend their country despite overwhelming odds and population that's 1/100 the size of RF population. That they suck dick at expeditionary warfare? Why would Estonia engage in it in the first place anyway? They're not superpower of any kind and won't be due to demographics and lack of resources.

>>34806166
Continued.

>>34797634
>Forced military service: not even once
I think you're thinking of this too philosophically and not realistically. Conscription doesn't always mean forced, other than strictly formally. I only know of two people that were forced into conscription from my year and I've met hundreds, and these two knew Farsi and Bosnian respectively. I know a ton more that wanted to but were turned away. A lot of people here seem willing and able to serve.

>>34798139
You and I have vastly different views on our own conscription. What nation did you serve in and what quality of unit?

>>34804891
There are a lot of positions that I think a vast majority of females shouldn't serve in but there are a lot of positions that they're just as good in. There's a lot of driving, list writing and computer tapping in modern armies.

>>34805194
Exactly. It was easy for many to voluntarily conscript (yes, they asked me during my conscription if I wanted to serve, otherwise there would be plenty of willing that would do it better than the unwilling) because they gave a limited time, many found that they liked it afterwards. Fewer want to try it out as a career straight away.

>>34805257
We clearly have a different mindset and this is not surprising. I like my nation and my way of life. I'm willing to serve a year under pain of prison and and I'm willing to take up arms in case of war, in case that way of life is threatened. It's like taxes. I receive from my government and I give to my government.

>>34806125
For many mid-tier units this is truly what I believe and this is grounded in having served as a conscript, professionally and seem other professional nations soldiers.

>>34806199
While you're not wrong when it comes to basic idea, Estonia can't possibly mobilize 300,000 people. You need to replace your loses for start. If they just mobilized everyone their units would be combat ineffective in a matter of weeks.

>>34806166
>>34806204
Here, I'll start using a name just for this thread.

>>34806176
That's very funny. Did you suck Tyrones?

>>34806197
>taught in a few weeks, besides some specialized roles
This is an exaggeration. An infantryman can do his job after 3 months but he'll be so much better after 6 months or a year. I know this by experience. It's not just walking straight ahead and shooting, it's being a good, independent soldier in the field, being able to step up if your squad leader is killed, staying fresh in the field, shooting well under all circumstances, etc.

>>34806216
Yes, I am aware of it, but I'm trying to make a point.

>>34806222
You are correct, but I'm talking about full-scale conflicts. You only need a few weeks to make a random guy effective in combat, and in the grand-scale of things it won't matter.
Regulars who never saw combat aren't that superior either. Regulars who did, that's another story.

>>34804891
>The 500 females should be discarded.
your existence should be discarded.

>>34796662
>murrican infantry getting BTFO by finnish conscripts in Arrow 2016
>norwegian Telemark forces (90% of who had real combat experience) get BTFO by finnish conscripts in Cold Response 2016
>>conscripts are bad mkay!!

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>>34806371

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I did my two years, it was okay

>radar

>boats

>radio

>casual drinking at all hours in the day

I think that conscription really does suffer from apathy on the part of conscripts, especially in a peacetime army with general conscription - I certainly wouldn't be as gung-ho about it if I was in the Infantry as I was meant to be instead of suddenly being shunted to the Navy. I got to see and do things I otherwise never would, so I don't regret the time 'wasted'

Conscription also made me not a fat fuck in <17 weeks of basic training, so that was nice

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>>34806477

I forgot to mention - I think our conscript army personnel are less hardy and more prone to physically and mentally breaking compared to professional troops in neighbouring countries, probably because this wasn't something they signed up for. Leadership is trying to make up for it with technology and tri-service integration, but I wouldn't know how effective that would be in a real was against some dude who can shit his own pants no sweat while waiting to ambush you

The Navy was #1 in the (small) region though, everyone else can eat shit

>>34796495
If the US had conscription, my take on it would ultimately depend on its implementation.

If it serves mostly as a brief introduction for young men to the basics of national service and is a tutorial on the general martial tradition, likely not lasting very long (4 to 12 months)? Probably 100% positive and would lead to much, MUCH more stable proliferation of national pride and general mental health among the male population.

If it's used as a way of de-facto forcing the male population to serve a term of slavery and indoctrination? Then things get a lot sketchier. As I said, really depends on how it's implemented. Requiring men to go through some intensive boy-scouts training is good. Requiring men to serve the interests of the military industrial complex is bad.

As for less developed countries or in a theoretical scenario where the country is involved in a major war, it stops really being a moral consideration and can simply become a consideration of the fact that it's necessary for the country's survival.

Conscription is necessary for small nations to have the manpower to survive an invasion until their allies can mobilize to defend them. It is also good for national cohesion and pride.
Conscription only works for defense, however. Conscription for attacking other nations or defending far away allies for the government's corporate overlord's interests will be ineffective and cause resentment against the government.

>>34806216
So too do the Russians, in this hypothetical scenario. Estonia already has a trained pool of personnel that can replace/reinforce their combat troops on the field.

Beyond that, they're fighting for survival here and losses become slightly easier to cope with. The soldiers on the field and their commanders, as well as the enemy, understands that.

Is Russia going to risk taking 1:1 or even 3:1 loss ratio just to take Estonia?

>>34806936

Estonian conscript here.

>Is Russia going to risk taking 1:1 or even 3:1 loss ratio just to take Estonia?

That phrase reminded me words of my unit commander.

"If we have to fight, we will lose. However, we will make sure you bleed until you can't move"

AKA, you will only obtain pyrrhic victory at best.

Overall thought about conscription.

Okay with it. At least you will know how a gun works and not think that its a broom with a small box attached to it. Along with basics.

>>34807071
How's your gun laws generally? Are they like Finland's?

>>34806611
I agree with all of this, plus it's a much better check on the powers that be deciding to play world policeman, since the entire male population has a vested interest in peace

You can only have conscription if your main objective is national defence.

Its shit for nations who mainly use their armed forces to invade some dictator nobody cares about.

And I argue that conscripts is BETTER than proffessionals in many cases.

Conscripts in western nations has to do tons of psycological and physical tests. After these a set of experts place the right man on the right job. This means that nobody who isnt qualified gets a job, and that you get a position based purely on your qualifications and abilities.

Also former conscript, currently working with with recruitment and testing consripts.

I can see why small and relatively weak countries with militaristic and expansionist neighbor(s) would do this.

>>34807105

Get the license and you can get pretty much anything as long as it isnt full auto or smoothbore, with total length below 840mm or each barrel below 450mm. OFC, guns imitating other object aka umbrella shotgun is illegal or weapons that can be shortened than intended.

Otherwise go nuts

>>34806090
>service really should guarantee your citizenship and freedom

why, because it sounds cool?

>>34796495
I would argue that countries with conscription have better professional units.

you basically have a 12 moths+ selection period to weed out the retards, before the professional selection actually starts.

>>34807196
Neato. I find it weird that some post-Soviet states are quite lax, like you and Czech Republic, but others are really bloody strict, like Hungary.

>>34797505
Wtf I love Finland now

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>>34796792
Heimevernets Innsatsstyrke er flott, vurder det.

>>34807204
No!
It's easy, if you are not willing yo fight for your flag, you better find a new flag.

>>34805830
I can't even begin to imagine the reaction of a 95 year old man to almost any of the shit that gets posted here. Society has gotten too ironic for its own good.

>>34796495
>If YOUR country had conscription and you would have to serve, what would be your take on it?
5/5 would serve and did since it has.

>If YOUR country had conscription and you would have to serve, what would be your take on it?

I wouldn't dodge the draft. If we were instituting a Swiss style conscription that's really mandatory training for defensive purposes I'd be gung-ho.

>>34808351
You'd just be after your free SG550, admit it.

>>34808663
I mean the amount of time means it's not really "free" and I could save in less time. But hey, I wouldn't say no to a free rifle and training.

>>34796495
I don't like conscription (and I don't hate it neither, be it clear), but I think we should have some kind of light and basic military training instead of physical education in schools, now I'm not saying "send the children to boot camp", but if you aren't living in Colombia and the crime rate isn't skyrocketing it can be a good idea and it's actually useful instead of that shit called P.E. Of course I wouldn't do it in Detroit or Chicago, but just to say.

>>34796495
Conscription is a joke for Western countries like the US

Western countries are full of immigrants that just want to take advantage of Western standards of living, but would not actually be willing to fight for it if it came down to it

Even then, US military is still full of people who only enlisted to get a green card

>>34796495

We have conscription. I served my year. It was fine. Glad to see the youth of my country still serving today, and especially since it is those among the elegible who are in the best shape and the mos motivated. Serving is a duty and a privilege, and it has never been more privileged or more rewarded than now.

>>34809015
Where do you come from, anon?

>>34796495
Depends on the circumstances. During ww2 the main reason the government implemented the draft was because of the people who were signing up. A vast majority of the people who volunteered were educated people, while a majority of uneducated people did not volunteer. The government saw a problem if we sent all educated people to fight and possibly die we would be left with a very dumb population, so they went with a draft and designed it to send a large number of uneducated people into the army while said educated people were usedoing doing other things.

>>34809033
Uganda.

>>34809235
>Faggothating country
>on /k/

Sounds like bullshit to me.

>>34809033

I am in Norway. It's a long time since I served now and things have changed a lot, like the military forces shrinking in size but getting much better equipped. Back then 3 out if 4 young men in each year had to serve and a lot of people were less than enthusiastic about it, even if practically nobody insisted on 'civil service' which was an option for the fanatically pacifist. Now it is only 1 in 7 that get called in and half of the recruits are female. So anyone who says they feel lukewarm about serving will never been called in, along with anyone with any kind of physical or mental issues or who'd rather go to some school. So now the army, navy and airforce get the fit and the motivated. Civil service is long discontinued. If I could jump back in time and get a body in good shape, I would be delighted to see this new army from the inside.

We also have a professional army, mind you. Special forces, foreign service units, some specialist positions and officer schools, are as far as I know still enlisted and the volunteer lists compared to the available places are massively overstocked.

2 years of military service should be compulsory for the children of the rich and politicians. failure to do your 2 years between the age of 18 and 22 will result in loss of civic franchise. baring them from voting, holding elected office, holding appointed offices, and being a judge.

>>34809385
>punishing the children of someone for what they have done

North Korea here we go

>>34806371
>muh anecdotes
Look, I also have similar stories where norwegian conscrips outperform or get the drop in some professional unit from another country during an exercise. Everyone has these tales to tell around the camp fire. But you have to be realistic and realise that even though our nations offer good training, the training stops after just 1 year. Professional soldiers in other country typically server for 4 years for example. It's obvious that they are more experience.

A conscript is only beginning to learn the really interesting stuff at the end of his conscription. When they've got all the basics down and can start training on Brigade lever for example, and the training gets really complex with lots of manpower involved in exercises at the same time. What instructors in my unit really regrets is that the conscripts fucking leave and join civilian life just when they're good and ready for the "big leagues" training.

>>34809469
>Brigade lever
Brigade level*

>>34809469
The thing is this. If you are applying for a job you are the one who decides what jobs you choose to apply for. If you in the other hand base it on conscripts you are directed to whatever service best suit you and what you are actually suited for and good at.

>>34809431
we can use left wing rhetoric against them and justify it.

when everyone has to do compulsory service or has an equal chance of being drafted. then the rich and or connected find ways to exempt their children. leaving the working classes' children to fight the wars or have their college time taken up by peace time compulsory antics.

all volunteer military has almost no children of the rich and or connected in it.yet they will still be the ones in power making the decisions. leaving the children of the working classes to fight the wars.

the "1%" should have something at stake for their decisions.

see the first 12 seconds of this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSLCYRa73LE

>>34809469

Heh. Multinational exercises are shit anyway. A lot of 'battles' are won because the 'winners' simply refused to play by the rules. Like charging enemy trenches with mounted bayonets and sputtering exercise-guns which the other side is expressly forbidden to use or face from withing 50 feet. Or one tank blocks a narrow bridge and refuses to acknowledge that 50 enemy tanks are lining them up in their direct sights. Yes, I am looking at you British Army guys. Hope your 'wins' were tasty.

>>34809533
Does not apply if the law is equal for everyone.

>>34809533

You fail to see the obvious. The children of the 1% - who would want to be in the same battlefield as one of those spoiled assholes? Someone guaranteed to pull a favor or grease a pocket to be reallocated to safety the moment there is a whiff of gunpowder or a cold day? Sure there are good guys among them but those will be serving anyway. But most of the guys who were born with a silver spoon, were born with it shoved up their ass. Keep them out of my area of service, I don't trust any of them.

It depends on terms of conscription.

If it's "soft" peacetime conscription such as Finland, Switzerland, etc (not saying soldiers are soft, just not actively engaged in combat) where you undergo training, shooting skills, PT, etc for a term and then re-enter workforce, the conscripts more likely to have good morale, cohesion, etc. This type of soldier far more driven in conviction and able to kill and die for country and family.

In "need soldiers now" scenario where just press-gang people and put rifle in their hand, these soldiers are not quality. He is unfamiliar with comrades, not trusting them to have his back when shooting starts. Doesn't want to fight, more likely to desert, disobey orders, perform poorly because he is not driven to kill, only survive.

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>>34796495
Eesti <3 !!!

>>34805558
>>34805646
>>34805628
>>34805609

Top fuckin kek, nicely done

>>34807218
Good point

>>34806216
>Estonia can't possibly mobilize 300,000 people.
Depends what you mean by mobilize, and why not?

Mind you, that's not 300,000 combat troops.
Sure replacing losses would not be possible the way you imagine. Units would be unified or just brand new ad-hoc units would be created from whatever leftovers of units get banded together in an area in the aftermath of battles (or even during).

Additional replacements would come from hospitals/field hospitals.
You'd be surprised in what kind of shape people are willing to fight when it's with their countrymen and for their country.

In the case of Estonia vs Russia, in many cases Estonia would be overwhelmed so fast (if they are alone) that sure, the whole process would likely have no time to take place in full. But for example in the case of Finland it would work exactly like that (or Estonia with NATO help).

>>34806254
>>34806197
>Everything you need to know can be taught in a few weeks
You're simply wrong, I can't show you firsthand but you should read some literature.

>>34806254
>Regulars who never saw combat aren't that superior either. Regulars who did, that's another story.
It matters a lot who's doing the training. If it's done by troops who themselves never saw battle, then sure. But training by veterans makes much better troops.
This is perhaps is one of the major differences between conscript and professional armies. Conscription lasts only so long, and without battle 5-10 years after a conflict you'd be hard pressed to find any grunts with real experience to teach the new recruits.
In a professional army the knowledge is preserved in the field, gets passed on and lasts a whole lot longer. Not indefinitely obviously.

Training as a whole is probably the most cost effective method to improve your fighting force. It is vital and wins wars better than anything bar a huge technological or numerical advantage.

>>34810273
>Conscription lasts only so long, and without battle 5-10 years after a conflict you'd be hard pressed to find any grunts with real experience to teach the new recruits.
There's no reason at all not to have a professional component down to grunt level (except the guys that would accept that without becoming at least NCOs are likely too stupid to teach you anything anyway.)
The bigger problem is that you may not even have a war for a long time, or not the kind of war you really need to prepare for. Policing snackbars, for instance, is good practice for policing snackbars only.

>>34807307
I think that menu might be Thai.

I think it's a bad idea but can understand it in certain situations
For the US I think something where males have to serve as police officer or something similar for a least a week a year in their local area might be worthwhile though

>>34805950
Not much for me to fight for then Lmao

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>>34807196
How are you Eesti-bros reacting to the upcoming bullshit EU directive, that pretty much seems to forbid / make rifle mags > 10 rounds require their own license, and shit?

Here in Winland, it's both disliked and treated with cautious optimism, as it could allow us to slip in some handy improvements when finally overhauling the gun-laws.

>>34806080
I don't call filthy slavers kin.

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>>34815565
>doing a favor and helping to protect your country as a return to all its services and rights is "slavery"
GenZ faggotry at its worst

>>34815677
A government doesn't give you "rights", you idiot, and I pay for the services. Unwillingly, I might add.

>>34815691
>A government doesn't give you "rights"
On the contrary.
Go have a visit at some Niggeristan for once, and then try claiming that with a straight face.

>I pay for the services
if you mean taxes, they (should) go to various common good practices and safety nets, like healthcare and keeping up transportation networks. Both that you learn to appreciate when they're gone.

>>34815713
Nigerians have all the same rights everyone else does, their government is just abusing them. Same way yuro governments abuse their citizens' right to bear arms.

>if you mean taxes, they (should) go to various common good practices and safety nets, like healthcare and keeping up transportation networks
Government is inefficient as fuck, and also wastes a fuckton of money on unnecessary bullshit.
Here's just one example:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3462228/Mayor-insists-120-000-bridge-built-SQUIRRELS-cross-busy-road-Holland-not-waste-money-despite-five-animals-using-four-years.html

I want to decide where my money goes. I'm sure I can be better with my money than any government, and I sure as fuck don't want to pay for everyone's TV licenses like in some socialist fuckholes like Finland.

>>34805332
I'm an American, and I think conscription would be great for society. Also, corporeal should come back into training to a small degree. Beat the pusification out of our culture a little. I also don't think it'll change our effectiveness by a lot, half of the active duty people were fucking useless anyway when I was in 04-08.

Conscription works well defensively, but imperialist shitlords like USA, UK, France and Russia should stick to mercenaries, professionals, and spies when out raping and pillaging and toppling democratically elected governments.

>>34810630
>except the guys that would accept that without becoming at least NCOs are likely too stupid to teach you anything anyway.
Exactly. One old timer is not the same like the new guys joining into a platoon with war veterans and working together.
Though one way to circumvent this is by lots of joined training between regulars and veteran reservists.

>The bigger problem is that you may not even have a war for a long time, or not the kind of war you really need to prepare for. Policing snackbars, for instance, is good practice for policing snackbars only.
Yup, but there's not much you can do about it except doing your best to preserve knowledge and maintain high training standards.

>>34815713
>A government doesn't give you "rights"
>On the contrary.
>Go have a visit at some Niggeristan for once
This "Niggeristan" is the way it is because it's people share the same mentality as you.
This is also why Europe is sinking to their knees with each passing day.
Government doesn't give you anything, if they could they would have you as a thrall. Officials are corrupt bureaucratic bastards who answer to special interests, bribes etc.
The ONLY thing that's keeping them in check is the public. The ONLY thing that gives you any rights is your willingness to FIGHT for your rights.
This threat is the only thing that may keep the government honest. whenever there was no threat from the masses, the government did whatever they wanted and didn't give two shits about your rights.

>Go have a visit at some Niggeristan for once, and then try claiming that with a straight face.
Every time I am in western Europe I can claim this with a straight face. With each passing year Western Europeans are losing their rights. They think it's something the government provides and takes away. So when the government takes it away, no one does anything.

>>34796495
That loadout is so cool, they look like Waffen-SS.

>>34796495
Germanfag here.
consciption in my time sucked, but at least people have been drafted throughout the whole society. you've been toghether with mixed bag of smartasses and retards, and it was fine.
We've ditched conscription afterwards, and from what i've gathered nowadays there's only retards volunteering - at least for the cannonfodder ranks

>>34796495
>Forcing people to perform a service under threat of imprisonment.
Didn't the United States ostensibly fight a war to outlaw such a barbaric practice antithetical to liberty?

>>34818240
People living in united states have very different mindset. They think that government isnt supposed to intervene on the personal life of individual, and thus the individual isnt obliged to do anything without the consent of his own.

On many european countries with warying states of conscription, government gives more or less handouts to individuals. Thus individuals think it is their duty to give something back. Completing conscript service, serves towards greater mutual security.

>>34818240
>Wanting freedom but not wantiong to defend it

>>34796495
IDF here
Conscription is bad, but sometimes it's the only way.

>>34818345
That's the beauty of having freedom

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feels burdo burdo man

For small countries, or poor countries, it's an excellent way of getting X amount of manpower through the gate where you usually wouldn't be able to recruit. By the time I joined in 1961, the British Army had ceased conscription though we did have men completing their national service until 1962.

I was in Austria in 1976 for the Winter Olympics and they had the conscripts grooming the ski slopes, which they seemed more than happy to do. I've worked with a lot of conscripts, NATO and non-NATO over the years, and whilst the variance in quality has been huge they have, for the most part, been switched on and pleasant guys who just wanted to do their time properly and get out.

>If YOUR country had conscription and you would have to serve, what would be your take on it?
I'd oppose it. Armies with expeditionary forces in the 21st century shouldn't have it, at least if you take democracy seriously. Far better to have volunteers. Same opinion even though I now live in the USA. Conscription is great if you're an Alpine republic with an excellent standard of living. Aside from that it's a bit outdated.

>What does /k/ think about conscription?
If done right there is nothing wrong with it.
>Do conscripts have place on modern battlefield?
Well armed and trained conscripts are just as effective as voluntary soldiers. If you want to go on the offensive with conscript army you really need to groom zealous nationalism or other ideology, on defense just having pride in your nation is enough to motivate conscript to die for Vaterland.
>Late 90´s and early 2000´s, many European countries moved away from conscription towards professional military. Nowdays some countries have bought back limited conscription or are considering it. Why?
Imperial Russia and Emperor Putin, also resource wars in 50 years gotta get that martial tradition back up
>If YOUR country had conscription and you would have to serve, what would be your take on it?
I have been brainwashed from birth, joined fire-department youth witch is modeled after hitler jugend at age 10 and got conscripted at age 19 to unit with projected 75% attrition after 2 weeks of light conflict where I would get deployed and 90-100% in 8 weeks.
I am fine with this :)

>>34819305
>If done right there is nothing wrong with it.

>conscription
>ever done right

>>34819316
Finland, Swisscheeseland, Rhodesia and Prussia

Those are few that come to mind in the first 30 seconds.

Most of all:
>NOT USA
>absolutely NOT unified Germany

>>34805952

This guy's got the right attitude, I think. Conscription teaches you how to fight, sure, but it also teaches you how to act independently if necessary, and teaches you important life skills that you might need down the road. It can even provide government-sponsored training for important trades, with particularly skilled trainees getting chosen for more advanced training or apprenticeships.

>>34819533
It also spends at least year of your life, sometimes more in other countries like Israel, that you could have used towards economically productive purposes

>>34796832
>>soldiers are motivated to fight for own country
>>good for societal cohesion
this
also being a soldier is a good training on how te be a man
a saw it with my owne eyes
a lot of recruits were mollycoddled, spoiled brats
but after some weeks they are total different people
learning the hardness of life and how to take orders what makes a boy to a man

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>>34805952
>in my hypothetical new country, this is where conscription would come in, giving people the skills that they can automatically fall back on. Of course, conscription would be more generalised than just shooting straight, and there'd be more professions represented than just soldiering.
Funnily enough, that's pretty much how the conscription tends to work at best, at least here in Finland.

A big chunk of the basic training is simple fitness training, some first-aid training, teaching rookies how to live and survive innawoods with basic gear, etc, alongside with some "shooting" (it kinda goes deeper than that IRL).

On top of that, in case of trouble (natural disasters, missing persons cases, potential armed assaults...), the conscripts (and reservists) can be issued to aid the law enforcers and medical personnel.

>>34819658
You forgot to mention that one can earn commercial truck license (C-class) during conscription saving (I think it is more these days) 3 500€

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>>34819698
True.
And many youngsters use Mil-service as a stepping ladder into other jobs, like becoming a police officer, a doctor or a pilot. Many employers still greatly respect well finished military service in general. Not to mention it helps a bit when applying for firearm licenses.

Another reason why conscription pisses me off is that it's a clear affront to gender equality. Men give up a year of their life while women get drunk and fuck around? Fuck that. If there is to be conscription, it needs to affect both sexes. If not combat training, then auxiliary, or something civil protection related like first aid or something.

>>34806080
ancaps are fucking retards is whats wrong with him.

It's pretty fun, desu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jp1yclQXd1Q

>>34819751
>it needs to affect both sexes
Absolutely this! Lot of my coworkers, clients and famous people on tv have used burden of having to carry a parasite for 9 months as excuse to not subject women to conscription. Having children is optional and lot of women choose not to.

Having females in combat roles aside from airforce should be voluntary tho. My unit (frontline RBC unit) had 90% medical discharge rate for females and those that managed to endure were Badass paramedics and good CO's.

>>34819560

True, but a lot of people aren't gonna be using that productively anyways, like those faggots who spend a year backpacking in Europe or something, or those dipshits who go to college specifically for joke degrees that are NEVER going to pay for themselves (you know the type). If they're gonna squander a year or two on their own initiative, why not teach them something during that year instead? After all, if you teach some gender studies major how to fix cars or provide emergency aid, they can at least have some practical skills that they'll use to make money instead of bleating stupid shit on Twitter all day.

>>34819027
And its how you loose your freedom.

>>34819877
Because these people, despite what you believe, are a tiny minority. The overwhelming majority of the population would learn more spending a year abroad, working or otherwise, than they would doing menial tasks for the US military. They would resent conscription, massively so.

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for a nation with nuclear weapons to conscript. The military is not there to teach people life skills or step up for a terrible education system, it's there to destroy the enemies of the state and ensure American interests aren't harmed abroad. Does the US have a giant Empire that needs policing? No. Does the US have a manpower crisis? No. Is the US at military threat from any of its neighbours? No.

The decision to start using military service to fix other problems is one you can never really go back on.

>>34819751

I belived that most countries had gender neutral conscription today.

>>34805257
>Any country that would force its populace to take up arms in its defence on the pain of death or imprisonment is not a country worth defending.

In other words, essentially all of the countries throughout history. Seriously, go read a book, you pseudosmart teenager.

>>34819920
No country conscripts women.

>>34819908
>Does the US have a giant Empire that needs policing?

Yes you do. Thats why you have military bases all over the world and 11 aircraft carriers.

If your military was purely defensive you would'nt spend as much on your military as the next 15 countries combined, and it would pretty much only be based in the US.

>>34819900
Not if somebody else wants to defend my freedom for me.

>>34805309
Oh you'd die, for sure. And don't kid, you wouldn't fight. You'd turn yourself in and be executed as the traitor and coward that you are. A fitting end for your type.

>>34819943

Sweden and Norway does

>>34819949

Kinda how euros think. Why have a military when the US defends them anyway.

>>34819943
>>34819970

Oh, and Israel

>>34819900
"Want to keep your freedom, kid? Do exactly what we say or we'll court martial you for insubordination and execute you if you refuse outright."

>>34819980
It's smart thinking. Saves them money while we spend more and they get defended.

We should stop defending them desu. Let them defend themselves.

>>34819962
What's so bad about dying for freedom though?

>>34820003
>Execution

No countries other than total shitholes like North Korea and Eritrea does that.

You usually just have to pay a bit if you want others to defend you. Like it should be.

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>>34805309

>>34820019
Fair enough, imprisonment then.

>>34820034
At most you get like a month or something in western nations anyway. And you can usually just take the option of paying a fee

>>34820029
Doesn't work innawoods. And I doubt they'd waste assets hunting for a few draft dodgers when there's a war to fight.

>>34820029
>he hates people because they think the government is corrupt and we would do better without it (more "normal" ideas are doing better with government highly minimized)
you're a stooge

>>34820038
Yeah, no. When a government's existence is threatened, you can bet your ass it'll do anything it can to stay in power, which includes harsh punishments to keep people doing its bidding.

>>34820060
Yeah sure, in wartime. But the US and every other nation would do (and have done) the same so at that point peacetime conscription doesnt matter.

>>34820019
Finland still has execution as a option in times of great upheaval like say war. Things that qualify for 7.62 to back of the head
>desertion
>being shitty spy (good spy can be used for great intel)
>avoiding call to arms violently
>violent insubordination against officer

>>34796495
My government doesn't own me. I am not a slave to them. Conscription is nothing more than slavery.

>>34820075
So Finland is basically saying "yeah so we'll basically ignore our constitution if we think it's necessary". The funny part is that finns apparently still trust their government.

>>34820128

I bet you dont pay taxes either

>>34820128
Now try not paying your taxes and see what happens. You're still a slave.

>>34820141
Making sure people did military service is basically the only thing that made sure Finlands still exist.

>>34820153
And you think that is justification. Cute.

>>34820195
I bet Soviet conscription would have been much better.

>>34820141
Death penalty during times of peace was banned 1949, 31 years after constitution was written
>in times of peace

And for the longest time Finland had this special prison sentence for certain prisoners where you were assigned to "beating room" for months to years

>>34820075
Which part of current legizlation has anything about executions / capital punishments?

I think I've read that it was removed from few years after the war (as a legalized punishment options during war time) and completley after 1972. There are also some international / EU level treaties which don't seem to make reintroducing it in to legizlation that easy.

Obviously overwhelming majority vote in the parliament can do pretty much anything to change laws (constitution etc.). In current system that seems unlikely.

>>34820240
Where do you find the wording 'in times of peace' in the constitution?
>>34820201
Two wrongs don't make a right.

>>34820287
It was finnish or Soviet conscription they had to choose from.

Sure, the Finns might not like that the USSR invaded, but that isnt going to stop them.

Or do you think all bad things in the world can be solved by screaming MUH HUMAN RIGHTS!

>>34820264
Emergency powers granted to military basically give them carte blanche during emergencies. This was something my CO brought up during lectures of legality during wartime.

You can look this up yourself at finlex dot fi/en/ as I can't be assed to do it. I think 95%-100% of laws are there with notes from lawcreating process

I love how any thread that involves finland in any way, no matter how tangential, thread gets derailed like a Union Pacific

>>34820294
What argument are you even trying to make? Of course there's varying degrees of bad, but that doesn't justify the lesser evil.

>>34820313
Your CO was full of shit. Don't worry, it's pretty common.

>>34820429
So what would you suggest Finland would have done? Accepted that they are part of the USSR?

>>34820422
Well half of the board is bored finns shitposting so that shouldn't come to you as a surprise.

>>34820446
Fought with volunteers only. I doubt the amount of people dragged to the front on gunpoint were ever numerous.

>>34820454
Finland had just finished fighting civil war where people living in same house might wear different color on their arm. Being conscripted was only thing that could bring these people together and find a common ground.

No conscription means 1/3 of Finland defects at the start of the war.

>>34820446
Yokes on you I am finn too and that was another successful derailment post!

>>34797634
This is only an issue for America, Canada, Brazil, and maybe a couple others. Most other nations (Israel, Denmark, China, etc) have a national identity they can rally around.

>>34820623
>Canada
They do have a national identity. It's being British. Who do you think is their head of state?

>>34820687
Is the Queen still their head of state? Isn't it their prime minstrel?

>>34796495
As Hungarian i would serve. Why? Dont ask if you know that Warsav pact armies wasnt comparable with Russian armies and they would use them as meathsheald. Even the elite units had a life espectation of 24-48 hour. So they just taught you how to die.

>>34820706
PM is their head of government.

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I support conscription 100%. It's the best way to defend Finland, because everyone is involved. You learn valuable skills, it increases social cohesion and patriotism and power remains with the people and not some military elite or government. And most importantly it keeps ryssäs out.

>>34820015

When its dying for being unwilling to defend your own family, friends and democratic society to which you belong in name of your own personal freedom - plenty...

>>34820075

You are wrong. Wartime death sentence was removed from Finnish legislation already in year 1972. Not that deserters, spies, saboteurs etc caught during wartime could expect to handled with silk gloves, but death sentences would first require legislative changes.

>>34821217
>wanting to kill your fellow Orthodox Slavs on behalf of EU multiculturalists

KEK!

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>>34821482
>Finland
>Slavs

>>34821482
Goddamn you're retarded.

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>>34821482
>Because Russia is great and doesn't want to do or in fact never has done anything bad to Finns
1/5, made me answer.

>>34821508
>backwater district of Russia that broke off at one point
>not Slav

kys famalam.

>>34821482
0.0005 rubels has been deposited to your account

>>34821548
It was Swedish for most of its history you vodkanigger

>>34819999
None conscript women.

Do you know what conscription means? Conscription is where you are legally obliged to serve in the military. None of those countries conscript women.

>>34796832
>good for societal cohesion
>50% muslim
ok

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>>34821548

>>34821586
Yes. As a Swede, working with personal recruting into the military, I can confirm that up untill 2010 we had male only conscription. Between 2010 and 2016 we tried a professional system, wich was crap, and now we are back to a mixed one. From 2017 the conscription is gender neutral.

http://jobb.forsvarsmakten.se/sv/vagen-in/plikt/

>>34821561
We settled this land around 10000 years ago, so we've been free for the most part.

>>34821586
Oh, and I have personally met and trained with Norwegian female conscripts.

>>34821586
>Conscription exists in Israel for all Israeli citizens over the age of 18 who are Jewish, Druze or Circassian; Arab citizens of Israel are not conscripted. Other exceptions are made on religious, physical or psychological grounds. The normal length of compulsory service is currently two years and eight months for men (with some roles requiring an additional four months of service), and two years for women.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Israel

>>34806371
Northern European conscripts vs Negro wealthfare queens from burgerland.

>>34821370
I'll defend my own family. The best way to do that would be to get the hell out of dodge, and not get myself killed in a war I have no desire to fight.
Friends will have to make their own choices, and I'll respect them.
I owe nothing to this "democratic" society.

>>34821684
2y8mo and 2y sharp still isn't equivalent.

>>34821808
Its not equal, but its still conscription.

>>34821795

Enjoy loosing your freedoms.

>>34820015
>freedom
please define that for me in a sense that is worth dying for. If your "freedom" is shitting in a forest all by yourself then no, it sure as hell isn't worth dying for. If you mean the right to live and prosper in a healthy and safe society then sure, I'd die for it, which is basically what conscription is for in the western countries that have it

>>34823181
You are of course entitled to your opinion, even if it means you'd rather live on your knees than die on your feet. I won't respect you, but I'll respect your right to your opinion.

>>34823323
just some more empty ideological babble fundamented on lazy buzzwords and hollywood catchphrases, obviously typed in a cozy bedroom, safely away from any real necessity of backing up your edgy generation Z opinions. But hey, when I was a teenager I spew the same bullshit.

>>34821482
>implying most Slavs don't hate Russians

>>34823864
Russians make up about 50% of all Slavs.

>>34809545
No such thing.

>>34819024
Conscript the charedi, they will destroy your country like the monasteries did the crusader kingdoms.

>>34805285
So you will become a hippie?

>>34805351
Wish you luck anon, could be worst
you should start learning some korean btw

>>34806047
What the fuck, are you north korean or what? I mean I like conscription and a a fair bit of nationalism but that's too much

>>34806088
>printed money
So you don't know about economy, we get it

>>34796495
It's the choice of the people to decide if their country is worth fighting for not the government.

>>34797634
What's wrong with hating the government?

>>34824638
What if the people made democratic decicion to implement mandatory conscripion in their country, because they think it is worth fighting for?

>>34823841
Sounds like you had actual opinions back when you were a teenager and now you're just indoctrinated.

>>34824723
What if people made a democratic decision to ban all firearms, because they think only government should have them?

Tyranny of the majority.

>>34796495
Drugs and drug addiction would be too rampant. Conscription mostly works if you already have a functioning society. Not a drug addled mess.

>>34824964
>Tyranny of the majority.
Indeed. We don´t live in Ancapistan.

We will always have rules in society. We will always have people who hate every rule in society.

>>34825250
So you'd be completely ok with losing your gun rights, your free speech and your right to privacy? As long as the majority decides, of course.

Russia used conscripts in Ukraine. When they started dying babushkas back home didn't take it well. They switched to leading with mercs and letting the conscripts do occupation duty.

>>34825611
No. I would move to place which suits my preferences better. The people are allowed to make their nation into their liking through democratic process.

As i see it, conscription serves towards safeguarding my rights of free speech and privacy from invader who might not respect such rights.

>>34826356
And when there are no places left or you can't move to the last haven, what then?

Do you just suck it up?

>>34825770
>They switched to leading with mercs and letting the conscripts do occupation duty.

Someone doesn't understand what a Kontraktniki is.

>>34824723
Then those people can join the military and fight and shouldn't believe they have the right to make that decision for other people. A country that forces it's civilians to fight and die on their behalf is not a free country.

>>34821639

"Ruotsalaisia emme enää ole, venäläisiksi emme tahdo tulla, olkaamme siis suomalaisia”
=
"Swedes we are no longer, Russians do we not intent to become, so Finns we shall be".
- Adolf Ivar Arwidsson (1791 - 1858), Finnish statesman, author, historian, poet and newspaperman.

During Russian era Finland was an autonomic principality - with its own languages, culture, legislation, administration, currency etc. It never was just a Russian district. The two things it shared with Russia proper was head of state and land border.

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>>34826428
Heh. You as a last person on earth thinking that free speech and privacy is a right. What are you gonna do? Start a 1 man war against the rest of the world? Yell "MAH RIGHTS", when the police come take you away, because of something vulgar you said? You will be eradicated. Maybe you should consider if you have it all right in the head.

>>34826635
A country unable to defend itself is an occupated country(Not a free country)
You realize that some countries are unable to muster needed manpower for reasonable deterrence without conscription.

Lets pull an radical example from >>34826428
.
>World has no free speech nor privacy
>You think this sucks
>There are many others who think this sucks
>You decide to gather up and claim yourselves independent
>The Federation of Rest of the World becomes hostile towards your little independent bunch.
>"Separatists, Terrorists", they say
>You need military to defend your nation
>Unfortunately the number of people in your Ancapistan is severely outnumbered by the Rest of the World
>Not enough volunteers
>too many people think that they didn´t become independent to join military and to die in a war.
>Your deterrence is not high enough
>A defeat in upcoming war is inevitable
>You need to decide between implementing conscription or losing your rights.
>Everyone would need to serve only one year.
>After that they are free again

So. Lose your rights, because "MAH RIGHTS"
>or
Serve one year, Become free, gain high deterrence, No war, get to live in a country with free speech and privacy.
How will it be?

>>34805279
What movie is this from, sorry?

>>34796889
Professional armies are geo-political mercs in peace time, and the head of the hammer in war time. They are just there to deal as heavy of an initial blow as possible. They are just as expendable as the conscripts when the chips are down.

>>34828277
A country that's population is not willing to defend the country is a country thats not worth defending against occupation.

If the people of the country don't want to be occupied then they can choose to defend it.

The people get to choose what is worth giving their lives for. Not the government or anyone else.

>>34828498
And then they're invaded and conscripted anyway because the enemy doesn't give a rat's ass about your naïve ideals.

>>34828498
We went through this already...

If the majority of people support mandatory conscription, you have 2 options.

A: Go someplace where your opinion is the majority
or
B: Go innawoods.
If you chose the latter i must say you have earned your shit due to astonishing inability to cooperate with other people.

>>34828277
So you'd rather live as a slave than die as a free man. This is just a difference in opinion, then, and there's no point in continuing the discussion.

>>34829695
Refusing to be treated like a slave does not equal 'inability to cooperate'.

Funland conscript here.
About 10% are a waste of space and air. Most lazy ones are drivers rarely you see one that is going to be a career truck drivers

>>34832142
Yeah being a mongolian conscuck isn't much of an achievement here considering that half a board is from there

>>34830560
>>34830543
>slave
>freedom

You keep using emotionally tinted language and answering in cool one phrase quips instead of actually constructing an argument for your edgy ancap ideology.

>>34832254
You're the one making the claim that forcing someone to work is something else than slavery.

I don't like slavery. How is this a difficult thing for you to grasp?

>>34821594
Finland hardly has any muslims retard...

>>34832737
Taxation is also slavery by that logic, as it forces you to work more than you would have needed if there was no taxes

>>34826732
>Adolf Ivar Arwidsson

was he one of those swede noblemen type of guy that invented the idea of a "finland" so that it would be harder for the russians to assimilate it to russian clay?

>>34832789
No, taxes are theft. Different things.

>>34832844
Yes, and laws, police and roads are the work of the devil, we know

I was finnish conscript, whole year sucked, if i ever have to go back i will shit in others food buckets

>>34832891
Good laws aren't. Law enforcement is only bad if they enforce bad laws (which they do). Roads aren't bad.

>>34796792
This would be the only reason I'd support conscription. Let me keep my rifle and be a reservist for life.

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>>34796495
Don't worry soon enough all of NATO will be conscripting to fight off the VC 2.0.

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ITT, americans vs europeans.

europe has used conscripts since forever, and its from the experience of almost constant war, the relatively peacefull years after ww2 has made people forget how important they are at defending a nation, keeping the martial spirit and deterring.

If you ask a man if he's willing to die for his country, many will say yes without hesitating.
If you give the man the choice when shtf he will most likely say no. Conscription basically makes the choice easier.
very few men are willing to die out of their own free will when faced with it, but thats excactly what you need in a war.

Personally I'd like to see a Starship Troopers style citizenship where people that join the military or civil service gain certain privileges.

>>34806371
Finland doesn't count, you people are crazy, you literally had packs of vagrants roaming around killing and eating Russian soldiers during the winter war

>>34796571
>rather obvious that professional troops who receive continuous training are better

might be true in a limited individual capacity sense. However in a real war, in country-breaking modern-european-type wars, there is a standard pattern: the initial professional peacetime army goes and fights, gets killed or depleted. Then a conscripted mass army gets raised desperately, with the best part of the nations' manpower thrown in. At this point the deciding battles are fought, and either won or if lost there is a third rearguard conscription raise for what's left arranged in a defensive posture. This happens again and again and technology hasn't changed anything. Look at ISIS doing the rearguard conscript raise in its territories right now.

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>>34833158
pic related, it's modern western society according to this faggot

>>34828365
full metal jacket

>>34836336
Nice strawman.

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>>34834412
>If you ask a man if he's willing to die for his country, many will say yes without hesitating

Nope

>>34796495
Increases causalities, decreases effectiveness and should be done anyway so the population is invested in which conflicts are chosen by the political leadership.

>>34834252

Russia doesn't occupy countries like it did after WWII, so it doesn't have "allies" anymore.

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>>34796571
Spot on.

My only remark is regarding troop quality: Soldiers in professional militaries, such as the US one, are mostly people that chose the military willingly- creating a higher-average quality manpower pool. However, conscript-based ones can get an advantage here if managed correctly: while the greater dispersity of manpower quality gives room to worse-fitting personal, it also gives you access to top quality personal that professional militaries usually won't even dream of laying hands on- such as athletes, geniuses and overall "top caliber" people that would go on to do something "better" with their lives and never even consider enlisting under voluntary conditions.

>>34819560
True, but even in Israel, the conscription system is recognized as a major booster to the economy: ~70% of Israel's high-tech industry consists of people that served in tech units, truck drivers are likely to be ex-military drivers, most businesses initiatives are kick-started by people that served together in combat units and more than half of the country's emergency services are stuffed with people that looked for a way to recreate the fun they had in service.
Sure, it's easy to look at immediate impacts and dismiss the whole thing as nothing more than a massive economic burden, but a more forward looking perspective can also show this as a fruit bearing , long-term investment.

>>34819738
>And many youngsters use Mil-service as a stepping ladder into other jobs, like becoming a police officer, a doctor or a pilot.
Doctors don´t receive extra points on their application for serving as conscripts.
>Not to mention it helps a bit when applying for firearm licenses.
Not according to the law, which is respected in this country.

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>>34821594
This is what Americunts actually believe

>>34833158
Without tax there is no government to write laws and nobody to enforce them

>>34819949
then you don't deserve any freedoms at all.

Am I getting this right? Finland doesn't deserve its freedom, because it used conscripts to defend itself against Russia in many wars?

>>34839534
Yes. The only nations deserving of freedom are those incapable of being free.

>>34839037
>Doctors don´t receive extra points on their application for serving as conscripts.

Actualy in Norway they do. Having finished military service grants you extra points when applying to higher education.

>>34838545
Who said Russians? We will be fighting with the Russians against the Chinese and North Koreans.

>>34806166
>I don't think you have any insight into modern training methods of well-off western conscript nations.
Finn here, the comment I have heard a million times when I have mentioned the length to conscription in Finland is that it's way too short for proper training unless the whole time is used for training, they seem to not understand that that's exactly what the conscription is about here.

>>34840056
It's only natural to misunderstand, since in many nations conscripts are either free labour or sitting around, fiddling their balls on active duty.