>two 5th gen planes in the same decade If China can do this,

Shitty b8

>>34795096
Why would you produce a stopgap for an extended period of time?

>And if the F22 is so good, how come Americans are no longer producing them?

why would you buy a ptrs-41 when all your targets are squirrels? sure it's fun the first few times, but after a while it gets boring and expensive

>>34795133
What was the F22 a stopgap for?

>>34795186
>expensive
Remove beancounters!

>>34795306
F35

>>34795096
>And if the F22 is so good, how come Americans are no longer producing them?

Cause Lockheed gets more shekels developing a new plane every 10 years.

China has the money, the resources, the industry and the political will. No single European nation has all four of these, especially none to China's extent.

>>34795096
Because they aren't really fully 5th gen.

>>34795096
>And if the F22 is so good, how come Americans are no longer producing them?
Because we don't need their technology. Hell, we don't need the F-16's technology. We could be using 1940's airplanes with rocket pods and be doing just as good against the goatfuckers.

That's why we should have "low drag" classes like the F/A-18 AND "low tech" classes like the Super Taco. Lower stall speeds in those kinds of planes allow for longer engagement times against ground targets and the ability to acquire visuals easier.

File: 131212-F-TJ158-508.png (391KB, 666x394px) Image search: [Google]

391KB, 666x394px

>>34795306

A Russian equivalent that never materialized. F-35 is pretty much better in every way that matters until F-22 gets some sort of EODAS upgrade.

>>34795096
>J-20
>5th Gen fighter

Kek

>>34795551
The US isn't flying the Monkey Taco in combat though, its being used as a trainer and given to the Afghan security forces

>>34795591
Why do you "kek" when you can't even distinguish between J31 and J20?

Because the US and EU is doing the R&D for them.

>>34795622
I am well aware of the smoke machine you posted, you however referred to two 5th generation "fighters".

The j-20 is a strike bomber, an f-111.

>Inb4 NO MUH FIGHTERFU IS ***NOT*** A LEAD SLEAD BOMBER, IT HAS AA MISSILES!

F-111 was also fitted for various AA missiles.

File: maxresdefault[3].jpg (156KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

156KB, 1920x1080px

>>34795629

File: 1397680207390.jpg (5KB, 209x250px) Image search: [Google]

5KB, 209x250px

>>34795734

>implying it isn't 100% true

They still can't into high end metallurgy though. The F-119 alone was a decades long endeavor for the US alone. Not saying China doesn't come up with SOME stuff on their own, but to say they don't blatantly rip designs off of everyone who ever was dumb enough to give them a machine or set of plans (see: stole) is a moron.

My father works for a high end CNC machine company that's forbidden to sell to the Chinese pretty much for this reason alone. They'll buy one machine, strip it down and reverse engineer it. Then try to return the machine.

>>34795758
They may have gotten some unclassified shit, but that doesn't include pretty key elements they can't duplicate.

>>34795783

Like I said until they can indigenously produce certain elements like high end metallurgy they'll be a couple steps behind. I just don't think that they're there yet. High end CNC machines they can probably produce, and electronics where everyone thinks they have an advantage I would assume is completely false. Don't forget materials tech as well...

>>34795730
>The j-20 is a strike bomber, an f-111.
Any evidence at all for this? It's planform makes compromises for good control authority at high angles of attack and better sustained turn performance, it's weight and size are similar to other air superiority fighters and it has a >1 TWR.

>F-111 was also fitted for various AA missiles.
Only the B, which was supposed a fleet defense fighter, not a strike bomber.
All of the bomber variants have no A2A armament.

The Chinese have supposedly already used it in the air superiority role in exercises

>>34796214
>It's planform makes compromises for good control authority at high angles of attack and better sustained turn performance

Based on available evidence, no. It turns like an ice cream truck with 4 flat tires. It has shown ZERO ability to go high AoA. It's current engines DO NOT give it a greater than 1.0 T/W. It is optimized for long range. It has very few internal hard points.

>All of the bomber variants have no A2A armament.

False, various versions were fitted for Aim-7, trialed for Aim-9s, and had a radar that could direct Aim-54s.

>All the retarded Europeans in here screaming about China """"""""""stealing""""""""" their R&D

First of all, where do you even insert yourselves into this discussion when only China, Russia and America have indigenously developed 5th gen jets?

Secondly, what R&D could possibly have been taken from you to build the J-20 and J-31?

>>34796317
you forgot, it is stealthy from the front only. Ie it is stealthy ~5gen coming into the fight, but worse than 4.5gen stealth from the side or behind.

Clearly the job is to penetrate restricted arispace and destroy support aircraft not to engage in Air to Air battles.

>>34795096
China has shitty standards.

>>34797190
The J15, J16 and J10 are unironically better than the Russian originals. I really wouldn't recommend underestimating China as it is unwise.

>>34797057
The problem with that is one of the major support aircraft is an awacs rocking a huge UHF AESA

File: 1452027490825.jpg (104KB, 800x517px) Image search: [Google]

104KB, 800x517px

>>34795598
Isn't that his point though? That the Taco or Airtractor or any of that shit would be optimal for CAS against soft targets?

File: maxresdefault (1).jpg (94KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

94KB, 1920x1080px

>>34795096
Because the only European 5th gen project (BAE Replica, pic related) was merged with two American programs to create Joint Strike Fighter.

BAE is also more or less designing the only other """"Eurpoean""""" 5th gen TAI TFX.

Other than that European countries are working towards unmanned combat aircraft, with BAE once again taking the lead on this with Taranis.

I'd also wager on Typhoon and Superbug wiping the floor with any Chinese 5th genin most realistic scenarios.

File: chink_flanker.jpg (67KB, 749x528px) Image search: [Google]

67KB, 749x528px

Guys i have a super raging boner for the j-11. Can we just admit stealth is bullshit cauze low freq and computers so the only rational 6th gen fighter is a super duper flanker?

>>34799020
>super-duper flanker

Posts mig clone

File: 1437273585728.jpg (1022KB, 2126x1721px) Image search: [Google]

1022KB, 2126x1721px

>>34795598
the Navy wants to use them for Special Ops Command

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_EMB_314_Super_Tucano#United_States

>>34798746
No. For pure cost and loiter, damn everything else like TTT and payload, UAVs do a better job than a tico

>>34799020
>Can we admit stealth is bullshit
Fuck no.

File: 1489978678469.jpg (631KB, 1125x900px) Image search: [Google]

631KB, 1125x900px

>>34799020
>Can we just admit stealth is bullshit
no

>>34799020
>Can we just admit stealth is bullshit

Hahahahahahahahaha!!!

File: literal_mig.jpg (27KB, 560x315px) Image search: [Google]

27KB, 560x315px

>>34799049
>Posts mig clone
Umm no sweetie, migs dont have radar booms coming out of their plane-butts.

>>34799117
>>34799183
>>34799299

>Fuck no.
Maybe not on big planes that can have THICC RAM but even then they can just make lower frequency, longer wavelength radars. And if ram gits gud enough with quantum dot particles or sum shit then stealthy cuck doritos are less necessary and airplanes can go back to being sexy as fuck.

Don't know how credible these sites are but it doesn't take a literal rocket scientist to figure out how to get a weapons lock on on a little stealth fighter.

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/07/radar-and-signal-processing-versus.html

>SA-2 Guideline—has a 440-pound warhead with a lethal radius of more than 100 feet. Thus, a notional twenty-microsecond compressed pulse with a range resolution of 150 feet should have the range resolution to get the warhead close enough—according to Pietrucha’s theory.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/revealed-can-chinas-radars-track-americas-stealth-f-22-15261

>Phased array radars—particularly active electronically scanned arrays (AESA)—solve the problem of directional or azimuth resolution because they can steer their radar beams electronically. Moreover, AESA radars can generate multiple beams and can shape those beams for width, sweep rate and other characteristics. Indeed, some industry experts suggested that a combination of high-speed data-links and low-frequency phased-array radars could generate a weapons quality track.

The option I could see being highly Practical in the future is making giant flankers, like airbus size with ultra thicc RAM and AWACS LF radar dishes and tons of missiles and micro-missles to spam, shoot down other missles and lasers and also semiconductor RAM that can eat laser beams. Also mini CIWIS and rail gun to why not. More countermeasures

Also Flanker has better sustained turned rate than all other planes combined including raptor and vapers.

TL;DR bigger fighters > stealth.

>>34799514
National interest is hot garbage, and the other one sources nationalinterest and war is boring, which makes nationalinterest look like Janes.

File: .jpg (50KB, 920x862px) Image search: [Google]

50KB, 920x862px

Will Europe ever recover?

File: 1294037444412.jpg (147KB, 1200x798px) Image search: [Google]

147KB, 1200x798px

>>34799020

>two seats

That's a J-16

They've gotten all of their numbers funky, but in rough comparison:
>J-11 = Su-27
>J-15 = Su-33
>J-16 = Su-30

>>34795730
>The j-20 is a strike bomber
no, it's a strike fighter.
It almost certainly does not suffer from F-111's radar limitations vis a vis aerial combat.

>>34795808
>electronics where everyone thinks they have an advantage I would assume is completely false. Don't forget materials tech as well...
you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

One of the defining metrics for advancements in avionics as far as material science goes is the cost of GaAs t/r modules. Look up how China scaled up production of that.

>>34796317
>Based on available evidence, no. It turns like an ice cream truck with 4 flat tires. It has shown ZERO ability to go high AoA. It's current engines DO NOT give it a greater than 1.0 T/W. It is optimized for long range. It has very few internal hard points.
>source: out of your fucking ass.

>>34798893
>I'd also wager on Typhoon and Superbug wiping the floor with any Chinese 5th genin most realistic scenarios.
yeah, I don't think so. How's that Typhoon radar upgrade coming? Europeans can't do shit without the U S of fucking A holding their hands.

Fuck off bong, and watch what's left of the empire turn to SHIT.

>>34799049
are you....retarded or blind?

>>34799625
holy shit is that real?

>>34799778
Both Amerifats.and bongs wouldn't be anywhere without trailblazing German research yet here both of you are bashing China for """""'stealing'""""" R&D

File: 1.2.jpg (40KB, 900x621px) Image search: [Google]

40KB, 900x621px

>>34799748
https://youtu.be/MwdFZ8xFUjU
For known kinematics.

Pic for internal hardpoints

>Inb4 Chinese don't show off during their airshow https://youtu.be/K7KDrGyITb8

>>34799514
>And if ram gits gud enough with quantum dot particles or sum shit then stealthy cuck doritos are less necessary and airplanes can go back to being sexy as fuck.

B-2 has had metamaterial RAM since the 80s....

>>34799858
>For known kinematics.
so the one time they did a flyby at zhuhai.
It's pretty clear to me you have no authority on the subject since you didn't even post the videos they captured in Chengdu when the J20s were doing high AoA maneuvers .

File: IMG_8568.png (1MB, 1334x750px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1334x750px

>>34799625

>>34799778
Typhoon has one of the best radars flying barring actual 5th gens.

That's why captor E is not a priority until the 2020's.

INB4 your primitive understanding of radar means that you think an an AESA radar is superior to PESA one just because of that attribute.

>>34799883
>post the videos they captured in Chengdu when the J20s were doing high AoA maneuvers .

I would post the video if it existed.

>>34799892
>Typhoon has one of the best radars flying barring actual 5th gens.
>That's why captor E is not a priority until the 2020's.
nice way to say you're too fucking poor. Listen you dumb shit, EF2K was such a drawn out process that when the Tranche 1s became operational, they were already non-competitive. The reason why there exists an AESA program is because EVERYONE realizes that beam agility, reduced sidelobe, power efficiency and duty cycle are good things. The predecessor to CAPTOR-E was started in, what? 92/93?

The ONLY reason why it's not there is because you faggots are too fucking poor.

Now shut the fuck up and go back to your fucking hovel, europoor.

>>34799883
The j-20 was never caught breaking angle of attack, nor has been ever seen doing post stall maneuvering.

File: trump_stealth2.gif (4MB, 320x180px) Image search: [Google]

4MB, 320x180px

>>34799608
I admitted my source was dubious but using common sense and a little imagination, it's not hard to envision using multiple radar attennaes and signal processing to figure out where cuck-faceted stealth aircraft are. Even high frequency antennae could be used in some kind of multi array spaced out by thousands of kilometers. Imagine if multiple ships worked together to detect the beams that would be normally reflected sideways by a cuck-dorito. The bottom line is that stealth is a cat and mouse game, and there is a debate about whether it's so smart to compromise aircraft cost, and aerodynamics for faceted stealth aircraft.

Stealth may force your opponent to use more resources to detect you but active countermeasures and larger fighter aircraft may prove to be more robust. And there is a high liklihood that, at least in some part, stealth in it's current form is used by (((them))) (jk) to siphon trillions of dollars from the economy.

My hope is that we see sexy big af 4++++++++++ super duper tomcats or flankers that take a more balanced approach to stealth but dont look all shitty and boring like new stealth aircraft and more like some kind of ace combat type shit.

>>34799638
Damn their numbering system is as sideways as their vaginas. /

>>34795186
you know how i can tell you don't garden? those tree rats dug up my entire garlic patch one fall. remove squirrel with extreme prejudice.

>>34800231
>their numbering system is as sideways as their vaginas.
probably the funniest thing i've read all day. anon delivers.

File: hardest_working_airforce_officers.jpg (172KB, 736x547px) Image search: [Google]

172KB, 736x547px

>>34795331
>yayyy big shiny toys for MY TEAM!
>toys that other boys play with make my life better
Honestly experimental aircraft are the most interesting, but sadly the most secretive. And I get the same amount of autism satisfied by 10 raptors as 600. How many aircraft does the DOD need to fly red flag and airshow demos?

>>34800231
A: you're not going to magically be able to place a circle of ships around a stealth aircraft
B: Reducing detection range is always going to be useful.

>And there is a high liklihood that, at least in some part, stealth in it's current form is used by (((them))) (jk) to siphon trillions of dollars from the economy.
Yes stealth is a conspiracy, which is why every country with an aviation industry is trying to make low observable aircraft since the 50s.

You're letting your personal suspicions and preferences for aircraft get in the way of reality.

>>34800231
>Stealth may force your opponent to use more resources to detect you but active countermeasures....

Think this through a bit more.

>>34800394
Even with fixed, ground base radars it''ll be quite a task.

File: 1492046272138.gif (2MB, 460x258px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 460x258px

>>34799514

>Stealthy cuck Doritos

kek

File: DUPER.jpg (162KB, 1000x1250px) Image search: [Google]

162KB, 1000x1250px

>>34800394
B-b-but anonnnn.. What about jamming? Especially for defensive forces, like small countries that will probably never go on the offense, and any potential scenario over their home country is probably going to be a serious EM shitstorm with ground based radar and SAMs being targeted over the horizon by their fighters.

>>34800401
K but everything is a compromise, so stealthy features are a plus, but especially in certain circumstances, not basing ENTIRE designs around the concept might be beneficial. Like a massive "interceptor" that is just built to missile spam and jam. It would probably be easier to strap a bunch of micro missles onto a plane that isn't trying to be invisible. And COST is a huge part of compromise and stealth aircraft require R&D plus more maintenance possibly.

>>34799625
What am I supposed to be looking at here?

>>34800964
Proof that China has done someting that Europe never could, and also proof that China is already on par with Martsharts in all things stealth

>>34801556
More like proof that China enjoys putting mockups out when they know a sat is above. US did it to the Soviets during the cold War.

Either that or they are 100% incompetent.

>>34801556
Probably done at a fraction of the price to.

File: pol_hates_this.png (28KB, 1357x800px) Image search: [Google]

28KB, 1357x800px

>>34799625
Ching Chong IQ is higher than White IQ also but not as high as Jap IQ.

>>34801556
While I'm sure Chinese military tech can and does surpass that of Europe, if you think they're on par with America you're hopelessly misguided. Being able to grasp the basics of stealthy air frames does not equate to a fully functional stealth aircraft. The US is literally sneaking up to spitting range with f-22s to aircraft violating their ZOC, while China is still impotently yelling over radio at anyone that violates their claimed airspace around the South China Sea.

Maybe if things go hot with India and they whip out some secret tech people's opinions will change, but until they actually make a real show of prowess China is playing catch-up and nothing more.

>>34799883
Never happened to record.
Do you expect people will believe your laughable posts?

>>34802156
look harder, fag.

>>34799550
ironic how the F-22 also happens to be fucking massive

>>34799885
What is that????

>>34802929
F-35 nozzle RCS test article.

File: Neuron_15_DassaultAviation_0[1].jpg (159KB, 595x335px) Image search: [Google]

159KB, 595x335px

>>34801556

>>34802961
I'm disappointed it's not a ufo

anything actually new happening in aviation recently?

all the "5thgen" stuff is old news

>>34801970
It is average values and population of Chinkstan is tremendous. They have more smart people overall, this is scary

>>34803667
Tell /pol/ this and see how mad everyone gets

File: sr-72.jpg (51KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

51KB, 1280x720px

>tfw still no updated SR-71

>>34802082
There is no meaningful technology gap between Europe and USA. What Europe lacks is funding and will, not tech.

>>34802984

I am actually really excited by the Anglo-French UCAV project. nEUROn is supposed to have done quite well, and the few things we do know about what Taranis did at Woomera (especially with regard to autonomous mission planning) were exciting. If the networking gets implemented to proper 5th gen standards it will be a unique capability.

>>34805510
Ah yes, with the recent introduction of Bulgaria's 6th generation air superiority fighter, Europe proves that they too are in league with the Russians and Americans.

>>34805434
/pol/would tell you to nuke China "before it's too late"

>>34795582
>smaller payload
>less stealthy
>passive sensors and IRST are not as good
>less range
>a fuck ton slower
>no supercruise
>less able WVR fighter

It's shit.

>>34795783
Hasn't it been proven that China stole classified F-35 tech?

>>34800634
>turning your intakes into weapon bays.

>>34798893
>TAI TFX
Why would Turkey be making its own (technically paying BAE to make it for them) 5th gen fighter when it was a partner in the F-35 program?

>>34801970
Isn't the line of "mental retardation" on an Adult IQ test 80 or lower?
The US Army can't legally hire anyone with an Adult IQ below 83.

>>34805897
They stole literally everything, look at their sudden EODAS, distributed ir, etc. Plus j31 looks exactly like a dual engined f35. Not sure who they stole it from, but us military basically confirmed they got all of it. Personally I think that's why they stopped f22 production early, not much current need and main 5th gens already compromised, so decided to just start working towards 6th gen

(Not saying f22 compromised)

>>34796892
>All the retarded Europeans in here screaming about China """"""""""stealing""""""""" their R&D

Where exactly?

>>34806117

Because they want to build their aerospace industry, and they want an air superiority fighter / interceptor analogous to the F-22. Other F-35 customers like the Japanese & Koreans are planning on doing the same as Turkey, while the Eurofighter countries (currently UK & Italy, but later possibly Germany) are also operating the EF alongside the F-35, then probably replacing the EF with another air superiority replacement after 2030.

>>34806218
>gaiz they look the same so they must be the same, trust me iz smart.

You're fucking stupid. What is engineering convergence? If your goal is the same, you solution will probably be similar.

>>34805845
Tell me on the doll where the multi role touched you.

File: interception-d-un-tu-160-blackjack-russe-par-un-mirage-2000-5-francais.jpg (300KB, 2000x1191px) Image search: [Google]

300KB, 2000x1191px

China is boring. It's all stolen / reverse engineered tech. But they now have the resources to disguise their copies better.

Americans, Russians and Euros at least design their stuff themselves.

>>34806962
I'm actually not, I'm an aerospace engineer. And it's an awful lot more likely you'll end up at the same answer when you steal answers from someone else. Not sure if youre trying to say the j31 is all original or if you're just a 50 cent, but it was confirmed the data was stolen so your argument is a bit moot

>>34800319
>implying overwhelming superiority doesn't act as a deterrent

>>34801922
Plywood mockups usually are.

>>34806962
>If your goal is the same
What goal? China's goal is literally just playing catch up with the US for absolutely no reason, regardless of everything else (actual purpose, actual need, etc.).

>>34805845
>smaller payload
You mean larger. The F-35 can haul more internally than the F-22 and has more external points.
>less stealthy
Nope. In fact, until the F-22 gets the F-35's improvements in stealth tech it's a bit behind.
>passive sensors and IRST are not as good
Are you high or something? The F-22 doesn't even have an IRST system.
>less range
What? An F-35 in A2A config outlegs an F22 by 300nmi.
>a fuck ton slower
Wow, it's reasonably fast to a speed most fighters never exceed anyways.
>no supercruise
Except it kind of can.
>less able WVR fighter
By what measure? It has far better sensors and comms. F-22s will become dependent on the F-35 sensor net to be really effective before stuck hauling a couple 1k bombs out then going home.

>>34799638
Flankers are the sexiest aircraft of all time.

Europe is poor and politically divided.

>>34805624
So you were just shitposting. Gotcha.

File: Janusz.jpg (44KB, 620x930px) Image search: [Google]

44KB, 620x930px

>>34795096
The J20 and the J31 are imperfect stealth planes. They stole blueprints and other information on the F-35, but the F-35 by design is really not ideal in many respects. It was designed with severe restraints such as being compatible with VTOL and being stealthy.

China's jets won't be as stealthy as the F-22 and F-35, and the J31 is not being developed with a VTOL variant. So the whole aircraft design is far from optimal.

As cool as these planes look, the Sukhois they bought from Russia will probably serve them better.

On the other hand, the Chinks are developing advanced UAVs and their tech is progressing at breakneck pace. The Chinks understand where the future of warfare lies, and they also understand that if they want to beat the US militarily, the solution is by leapfrogging them technologically. Developing hyper-sonic vehicles is an example of this. If China were to develop an effective hyper-sonic missile, for instance, it could potentially render the entire US Navy vulnerable to strikes without effective means of defence. If 1-2 scramjet missiles can sink or cripple a Nimitz or a Ford aircraft carrier, then suddenly the US Navy is no longer worth much.

>>34808252
>It was designed with severe restraints such as being compatible with VTOL and being stealthy.
>Keep on Memein!

The F-22 was designed to be stealthy too, but both it and the F-35 have fantastic maneuverability. And the STOVL system as used meant they could just modify a conventional design to use it in the one variant. The Harrier and X-32 are examples of a plane designed around VTOL.

>>34799858
God even their Knockoff Blue Angels are shit

>>34807095
Retards gonna retard.

>>34807118
>I'm an aerospace engineer
Doesn't mean shit. It's what's in the plane that matters, and since you don't know, you DONT KNOW.

>>34808252
U dumb