Other than America, Russia, Canada, Sweden and France, are there

>>34786154
>Other than America, Russia, UK, France, China
nah

>>34786217
>China
Making shit clones of decent Russian designs doesn't count
>UK
Do they still make any whole planes anymore?

>>34786315
Hawk and typhoon, although typhoon components are made around Europe.

They also make large sections of every F35.

BAE are probably the world's leading aircraft manufacturer after Lockheed Martin

>>34786460
>BAE are probably the world's leading aircraft manufacturer after Lockheed Martin

On this episode of Alternative Facts™...

Do you want to make a new jet, or clone an existing one?

Italy and Turkey can clone the f-35. Making a new jet is something only a few countries can do. Japan, SK, UK, France, Russia, etc.

>>34786480
BAE have contributed massively to B2, F22 and F35. Typhoon is the most successful 4.5gen and tenaris is progressing nicely.

>>34786503
>Italy and Turkey can clone the f-35.

Neither country has access to the source code or design blueprints. and reverse engineering a 5th gen is doomed to failure.

Only contributor countries have access to all the information needed - US and UK.

>>34786154
You're being generous with that list ITT. The only four countries with a highly developed, fully equipped, well funded and presently active indigenous military jet research, design, and manufacturing capability are US, Russland, China and France.

Sweden's is limited.

The Brits used to be relevant, but as is the story with British industry, it was quickly picked apart by other countries after a period of mergers, acquisitions and corporate takeovers.

Japan and Germany are latent players.

>>34786518
Nigga, we're not talking about "MUH I PLAYED A ROLE, GIVE ME CREDIT", what we're focused on is the group of nations with a full-fledged and independent plane building capacity.

That is
- Independent R&D facilities and funding
- Having your own domestic factories
- Having a stand-alone market presence

>>34786575

>france over UK

opinion discarded.

France barely put toegther a 4.5 gen.

Meanwhile, BAE created the RWR components of all current 5th gens, the HMD from Typhoon was used to form the basis of F35, not to mention the defensive suites of all previously mentioned aircraft and then some.

Where is France, China, Russia or the US's version of Zypher?

>>34786572
>reverse engineering a 5th gen is doomed to failure
I bet Japs could do it. Afterall, that's how Japan transitioned to a first world country.

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>>34786628
Jesus Christ you insecure nationalistic piece of bovril drinking shit. First of all, it's "Zeypher".

Secondly, until you bring into this discussion the present day English counterpart to Rafale, PAK FA, F22, J-20, or even the Gripen, you don't a place in this conversation. Fuck, as a leaf I normally complain about Amerifats being overly brash and arrogant in every thread, but at least they have none of that needy and attention whoring insecurity you find in 97% of Brits on this board.

>>34786154
>Canada

>>34786607
BAE have all of these.

Final assembly of typhoon, all Hawk variants. 30% of Gripen, 15-30% of F35.

UK has numerous domestic factories and final assembly plants.

>stand alone market presence

like MBDA being the world's leading air launched missile manufacturer with its main research and manufacturing plant in stevenge?

or Rolls Royce who need no introduction?

QuintiQ who are producing UAV's that don't exist anywhere else int he world.

AugustaWestland with Lynx and Merlin

France and China can't hold a candle to the UK'saircraft industry.

>>34786572
Turkey and Italy both make components.

>>34786728
Wow. See what he said >>34786699 and then come back with a revised post.

>>34786679
>>34786575
The nips are the one low-key player I could expect to continue to be able to produce an aircraft. Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, while no longer at the forefront of aircraft development, is a potential production contractor that cannot be ignored due to its continued massive girth. They did take a swing at a 5th gen concept some years ago so they do have the know-how, and they've got a proven industrial base to produce modern fighter aircraft as shown in the production blocks of the F-2. Hopefully the next aircraft they build won't be plagued with the same administrative problems nor the F-16s insufficient wing strength issues.

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>>34786699

>First of all, it's "Zeypher".

hahaha you made a typo, therefore, your argument is invalid so i will ignore the question posed.

wow

>has no idea that Typhoon is almost entirely British, the partner nations just helped fund it and in return we let them build components is BAE designed factories.

Typhoon is the most successful 4.5 gen. in terms of export, capability and future development.

F22 & F35 would not be 5th gens without BAE's work on sensor fusion, ESM/RWR and defensive aids.

>>34786728
I do have to remind you that China's industry has nearly fully produced it's entire air force. The only two areas it lags behind Britain in are electronics and engine building. Everything else, it has more of and does it more.

>>34786707
Maybe he's thinking of Bombardier (which sold off their military aviation some time ago)? Wouldn't call Canada "extensive or respectable" today, though.

>>34786575
>The Brits used to be relevant, but as is the story with British industry, it was quickly picked apart by other countries after a period of mergers, acquisitions and corporate takeovers.

I mean, people can screech about the UK all they want, but that's just delusional. UK sat fourth as the highest dollar value for Aerospace.

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>>34786780
The ATD-X is still in testing, or was a few months ago.
I think Mitsibishi is taking this 5th gen thing seriously.

>>34786315
>China
>Making shit clones of decent Russian designs doesn't coun
but the J-15 is better than the Su-33

>>34786154
Germany, South Korea. I guess that's that.

>>34786796
>The Typhoon is English

Not even Vatniks are this bad. Please just stop embarrassing yourself here. How the fuck is it anywhere near "almost entirely British" when the Brits only accounted for 39% of the tender?

>F22 & F35 would not be 5th gens without BAE's work on sensor fusion, ESM/RWR and defensive aids.
Like has been stated before in this thread, this is not a conversation about component manufacture. After all, you're not really going to sit here and act as if software suites, Avionics and other auxiliary components are things than only Brits can design (Even the Chinese are catching up with you here).

So once again, until you can show me a fifth-gen plane that was proposed, manufactured, procured by an EXCLUSIVELY British government/military initiative for EXCLUSIVELY British use, get the fuck out of this thread.

Martsharts have the F22, Vatnikistanis have their T-50, Chicoms have their J-20.

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>>34786154
germany probably makes planes, they make cars and boats so why not planes?

>>34786799
he may also be thinking of old timey canadian aerospace, when we had the Arrow and AvroCar about to come out and then the powers that be pussed out of heating up the cold war

>>34786902
Funding =/= design.

Also if your reading comprehension was any good you'd know that F22 and F35 are not purely American.

Who do you think is the world's second aircraft company?

>>34786958
The Arrow was a joke really, even ignoring all the espionage behind it. The Soviets switched their bomber force from intercontinental to theater and Maritime duties and the Arrow had horrendous range and payload.

>>34786902
>So once again, until you can show me a fifth-gen plane that was proposed, manufactured, procured by an EXCLUSIVELY British government/military initiative for EXCLUSIVELY British use, get the fuck out of this thread.

At least if you're going to pit yourself as the voice of reason in this thread don't be THIS disingenuous.

>>34786979
>The Arrow was a joke
Lmao, American propaganda.

>>34786979
it's a high speed interceptor meant to leave and come back quickly, not a fucking high loiter time attack craft. and it was on par with modern interceptors and got canceled due to political problems

>yankee mad that any other country on earth is able to produce things

just because the F22 took over 100 years to fly for the first time and has already lost relevance doesnt mean everyone else is so inept at making planes.

>>34786628
wtf are you talking about? France made a whole 4.5 gen aircraft alone, while the UK made only parts of EF-2000 and rest are by Boeing Spain+Germany and Italy

>>34787119
>France made a whole 4.5 gen aircraft alone

It really, really didn't. Rafale came from the EF-2000 program after France left because it wanted EF-2000 to have a stronger A2G capability whilst the other partner nations wanted A2A capability (interceptor).

>>34786607
literally every developed nation on earth has factories capable of producing planes and at least a couple of aerospace companies, if not at least engineering graduates out the wazoo to do ~R&D~

military planes are only different because there's tons of political bullshit to make sure everyone who's going to buy one gets some MUH JOBS out of it too.

in terms of normal aircraft, most countries can produce them and probably have a pratt whitney or eurocopter satellite in them somewhere

i think you might be looking at this problem, the problem of "what countries can make military stuff?", in a naive way that is not taking into account modern manufacturing capabilities as a whole nor are you taking into account why planes (or other military gear) are made in one place over another

>>34786480
>>34786518
BAE still manufacture hawks, and hundreds of different types of UAVS

>>34786503
Japan? are you high?

>>34786797
the eletronics are slowly catching up, sadly not the engines

>>34787203
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_F-2

>>34786315
how retarded can you be? J10 n J20 are copied from Russia?

>entire thread is assblasted yankees upset that planes other than the F35 and A-10 exist

lmao

>>34786728
Butthurt Britfag. Your country is falling apart and plumetting, stop thinking that you guys are still relevant. Pathetic

>>34787203
They already manufacture aircraft and had their own 5th gen proposal. This shouldn't be a surprise to you.

>>34786897
What else did S.Korea make except that trainer jet? Not even worth mentioning around the powerplayers

>>34786815
Ah, right. I forgot that WAS a Mitsubishi product.
Yes, I would consider them fully capable of supporting fully indigenous production of aircraft.

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>>34787151
>It really, really didn't.
dude, how retarded are you? they didn't like the Euro amateurs tell them what an aircraft should do, so from A to Z it's 100% French

France has a long long history in Aircraft manufacturing, you're either not old enough to know this info, or just dumb as brick

>>34787261
Please, having the tiny ass aircraft model x-2 does not count: they dont even have a close enough prototype and the final design will look nothing like X2. Well, if you count Japan why not count South Korea and Indonesia? They dont have some substantial either except for some powerpoint slides, and also Turkey.

>>34786315
>Do they still make any whole planes anymore?
hardly anyone does that.

>>34786902
You want to get technical the only eurofighter that is officially a typhoon is the britsh RAF model all the others are symply eurofighters.

>>34786699
>>34786628


It's even funnier because it's Zephyr

>>34786962
>>34786991
>>34787400
Jesus Christ. Again, stop deflecting and please show me a British F22, T-20,J-20, Rafale.

Please.

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>>34787424

>>34787295

You realise France took all the design work from BAE's EAP then tweaked it?

Rafale is barely a 4.5 gen, anyway, no sensor fusion, no HMD, no modern data link, no BVR missile, no high off boresight or LOAL missile, no retractable fueling probe (kek).

no matter how big your tantrum, BAE is the second largest defence contractor, they have better aircraft design credentials than anyone asides from lockheed. And there will never be another indigenous french jet.

Since you couldn't even afford to develop nEURON further you had to ask to join the RAF program and work with BAE.

no doubt after you've seen British work on the project you'll leave and claim that your copy is somehow superior like the worthless allies you are.

>>34787424

>still pretending that typhoon doesn't exist and isn't completely superior to Rafale.

top kek.

Don't worry, i'm sure after a few more red flags you'll be able to steal enough allied tech to claim you made something.

>>34787295

Note, this is different to what I've disagreed with.

Rafale did not come from the single sole effort of France. It came from being the split-child of EF-2000 changed so that it would meet French requirements.

However, Rafale is not entirely French because the companies that produce the parts are not entirely French. Same way that BAE, LM and GE are neither British or American. They're all interlinked in their products.

>>34787340
>hey /k/ what countries produce planes?
>well, japan does, they have some 4th gen planes, and a new one coming out.
>THOSE DONT COUNT

you should count SK and Indonesia too, since they also produce planes, even if under license with minimal modifications. But it's not like they don't have a manufacturing sector or any engineers at all or something.

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>>34787424
britain started work on the F35 under a programme (was it FOAS?) that was too similar to the point BAE and LM got together and decided to merge to project.

>>34787515
The ACX project started before the Eurofighter project.

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>>34787480
>You realise France took all the design work from BAE's EAP then tweaked it?
no that's the Mirage 4000

what a fucking retarded Bong
>>34787515
>Rafale is not entirely French because the companies that produce the parts are not entirely French.

do the world a favor and kill yourself, the IQ of your shithole will increase

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>>34787611
Nuh uh
Might want to have a look at the EAPs wings there

>>34787494
>Brir

You're in no place to lecture the French on anything concerning indigenous aerospace knowhow. Where is your independent 4th or 5th gen fighter? Why is it that you keep evading this question despite it having been asked by multiple people?

Why wont the British admit that they can not build a modern military jet by themselves? Instead of pathetically overstating their easily replacable contribution to other countries projects?

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>>34787576

>>34787611
You actually think a failed mirage 2000 upgrade is the design basis of EAP and typhoon?


Ahaha hahahahaha

Wow that nationalism

>>34787515
Im beginning to agree with the leaf ITT. The English are the most pathetic posters ITT when all they have going for them is their attempts to take credit for something France did independently.

>>34787634
You talk about ignoring the question when you keep getting the same answer from multiple people. Wake the fuck up.

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>>34787629
Dear god, what a brick head retard

if you don't know what you're talking about you should shut the fuck up

Rafale was built starting from Mirage-4000 that was canceled, Mirage-4000 flew in 1979 before your typhoon shit

just accept that the French made better shit, instead of giving away their industry for Europe like the Bongs did

EF-2000 is a piece of shit, the Rafale won EVERY SINGLE RACE against it

>>34787662
Read or watch a documentary on the development of typhoon.

The French stealing designs before leaving is well documented.

They requested copies of all work days before announcing they were leaving ffs.

>>34787683
Even with the failing Indian order typhoon is more widely exported.

>>34787686
>The French stealing designs before leaving is well documented
what a fucking retard, blind nationalism

>>34787244
>J10 n J20 are copied from Russia?
J-10 is just an Israeli Lavi copy and J-20 is MiG 1.44 copy. Chinks have never in their history made anything of their own. Their whole civilization is just a bastardized, subpar copy of civilization that they emulated when they came in contact with Greek traders/soldiers. Literally nothing new has ever come out of that part of the world.

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>>34787702
>typhoon is more widely exported.
oh yeah because it's made in 4 countries, of course it's widely exported

pic related the results of the Swiss tests, even with Germony, spain and Italy you couldn't make a better aircraft, what a bunch of fools

>>34787674
>Me

Im not the one who asked the question first, im French and im simply reading the thread, fascinated by all the sophistry and evasive answers the British in here have fielded to try and avoid answering why they can not as a country build their own military jet nowadays. This isn't about what you did in some European or American project, this isn't about all the nuts, bolts and rivets you provided, its about your own independently led 5th gen projects.

Even Chine had two, but curiously, where is yours?

>>34787662
>The English are the most pathetic posters ITT when all they have going for them is their attempts to take credit for something France did independently.

Is that what you're taking from this? Despite I've said nothing but almost NOBODY produces something entirely independently. They're all produced by companies who zero, zero fucks about national sovereignty since they're businesses!

>>34787556
Well they definitely can make planes, but compared to the powerhouse like France England US China Russia its still pretty limited. And the ability to create a top-class plane? none. Well if you just consider country that can build a plane, you should also consider Taiwan. Their old I-DONT-FLY isnt the best but its still something since it counts as a third generation fighter
But for SK and Indonesia? Indonesia barely has anything, SK recently only had a lousy trainer which was build under the help of US, just like all of their other weapons

>>34787683
Except the work that makes typhoon special is the fly by wire technology and systems integration - this is the work that was stolen.

The French then put this into whatever air fame they had left on the design board - the failed 4000.

This is why rafale doesn't have the advanced features of typhoon like adjustable air intakes.

>>34787748
the question was only "what countries make planes"

just because you're butthurt that countries other than your own can do it doesnt mean they cant

butthurt yankee cuckold

>>34787662
>>34787683
>>34787702
> Join ECA project
> Throw hissy fit because you want everything made domestically and want dassault to lead design despite only having less stake than BAE
> Leave with EAP knowledge

Also BAE also assisted dassault but i can't seem to remember what it was they assisted with.

>>34787733

Pretty sure that the Swiss evaluation has been debunked ad-infinitum. Given it was a Germany T1 that had the equivalent problem of the doors falling off for a car.

>>34787753
because intakes are already perfect, no need or useless shit, this kind of thing only countries with long history in manufacturing will know

>>34787779
>Pretty sure that the Swiss evaluation has been debunked ad-infinitum
no it was not

>>34787763
>Also BAE also assisted dassault but i can't seem to remember what it was they assisted with.

because you're lying and they didn't

holyshit Bongs are really salty

>>34787733
Even excluding partner nations typhoon is more popular.

The Swiss were also too poor to afford good versions of typhoon , hence the results.

So rafalefag, how come there's no BVR missile?

So to make a long thread short, only China, America and Russia have the full industrial breadth, fully indigenous technical knowhow and present moment manufacturing readiness to build a 5th gen machine of their own? And Japan and Germany are the two latent aerospace powers of the 21st century?

>>34787611
>do the world a favor and kill yourself, the IQ of your shithole will increase

That's not answering the point. You know I'm correct Thales has no fucking loyalty otherwise they wouldn't sold shit to the Chinese. No defence company has any loyalty!

>>34787791
>because intakes are already perfect, no need or useless shit, this kind of thing only countries with long history in manufacturing will know

Holy shit this grasping. You keep getting btfo at every turn and its hilarious. I'm done trying to educate you, night night

>>34787706
>J-10 is just an Israeli Lavi copy and J-20 is MiG 1.44 copy. Chinks have never in their history made anything of their own. Their whole civilization is just a bastardized, subpar copy of civilization that they emulated when they came in contact with Greek traders/soldiers. Literally nothing new has ever come out of that part of the world.

bruh are you fucked retarded? There is basically NONE contact with Greek traders. Fucking retarded fuck take a look at the FUCKing map! How the FUCK can a greek travel across the Gobi desert or the FUCKING Himalayas and come to CHINA? Fucking retard. Plus, China invented actual paper, gunpowder and compass. Fucking retard and why the fuck would i bother argue with some random ignorant retard on this board, fuck me

>>34787791
>because you're lying and they didn't
They installed all the software required to use MBDA products

>>34787819
So, OP, did you just make this thread to confirm your own beliefs, and not actually listen to anyone else when they tell you that basically every developed country on earth has the means to produce fighter aircraft?

>>34787819

No, because despite the fake or real shitflinging between "frenchfags" and "britfags" both countries have opted to help produce their next VLO strike craft together, even though each could do so by themselves.

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>>34787801
>Even excluding partner nations typhoon is more popular.

outside countries where it was made :
Kuwait, Oman, Saudi Arabia

Rafale :
Egypt, India, Qatar, (UAE very possible)

how's that more ??

>>34787832
nice arguments, night

>>34787842
lol no, the only thing is that Meteor missile, which is made in MBDA France and don't need no bong shit will use French software

>>34787791
>no it was not

Yeah.

Great article on both Rafale and Typhoon btw.

https://hushkit.net/2015/12/18/typhoon-versus-rafale-the-final-word/

>>34787870
Count the number exported.

UAE is just as likely to go for typhoon, and the Indian deal is likely to be cut.

Meteor is designed and built at MBDA'S main facility in the UK.

>>34787706
HOW THE FUCK IS J20 n MIG 1.44 similar? The only thing they have in common is they both use canard, like any European fighters, and they both use 2 engines, like more than half of the fighters. The inlet, entire configuration, radar, engine is entirely different. Oh, and according to your retarded theory, the design of j10 n j20 is based on j9, which is wayy before Mig.1.44. Let me summarize your entire argument: if it looks like a fighter jet, then it is copied from someone. Fucking retard

>>34787870
Cough apache cough storm shadow, cough Designed in britain cough

>>34787870

MBDA is joint. Drawing lines between who owns really what is chaos.

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>>34787897
the documents were released by swiss AF how the fuck they aren't real??

>>34787922
>Count the number exported.
it's just KSA that increased the numbers, those fuckers spend more than Russia on defence

>UAE is just as likely to go for typhoon
no, they said they are waiting for the F-3+ upgrade

>and the Indian deal is likely to be cut.
you mean increase

>Meteor is built at MBDA's main facility in the UK

the French and Egyptian orders will be built in MBDA France

>>34787857
Im not OP, but my interpretation of OPs question was "Which Countries have all the full technical knowhow and comprehensive industrial base to build their own excellent jets all by themselves"

From the looks of things, Only those three.countries have all of these parts of industry ready and active. Russians have all of their jet designers, their Engine design bureaus, their gun makers, bomb and missile makers. Americans bring their LM,GE, Raytheon, General Dynamics, Honeywell, Boeing, Fairchild e.t.c. China could boast their Shenyang, Chengdu, Norinco, Xian, and others.

>>34786315
>Making shit clones of decent Russian designs doesn't count
This board really needs to enforce a double digit IQ ban.

>>34787967
>the documents were released by swiss AF how the fuck they aren't real??

What are you responding to? That link certainly does not assert any falsehood of the Swiss report and that was hardly a release given it was leaked.

>>34787975
>"Which Countries have all the full technical knowhow and comprehensive industrial base to build their own excellent jets all by themselves"
yeah most countries have university graduates and aerospace factories in them so the answer to that will be "most countries"

>>34786628
lolololol

are you really a dumb bong or are you just trolling?

>>34787791
BAE installed MB ejector seats as per NATO standard.

You know they're good when even the chinese use them!

>>34787228
>sadly not the engines
WS-10A now, WS-15 soon.

Although to be honest, I really don't see a lot of expertise from Bongland for low bypass military turbofans.

>>34787975
>>34787988
>>34788029

Impressive™.

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What is this?
At Acadia national park airport

>>34787967
>you mean increase
Only if they win over the super hornet.
The MMRCA was cancelled and only 36 Rafales where sold. From the looks of it, Gripen E will nab the big prize since the US denied tech transfer of critical F-16 tech.
India will still need a new naval fighter, there the Rafale might finally get its comeback, given that it can beat the super bug.

>>34786707
>>34786799
>>34786958
Both Bombardier and Magellan Aerospace (former Orenda Engines) help with military aviation projects as 3rd party component suppliers, Magellan and a few other companies make parts of the F-35A.
P&W Canada produces the PT6 series of turbo shaft engines and parts for other series.

Canada has the capacity / potential to go and make their own military aircraft, they just choose not to as buying jets is cheaper on the Canadian Armed Forces pocket book than funding a stand alone development.

>>34786979
>even ignoring all the espionage behind it.
One (1) spy, in the engine plant, who stole a single titanium turbine blade.
Boeing by itself had more USSR spies than the whole of Canada. The RCMP was very good at sniffing them out.

This thread is developing as expected, i see

>>34788074
Gripen is still dependent on critical components from the US. It may be blocked for the same reason.

>>34787999
Thats not the same thing. You're either dense or being willfully daft. This isnt about theoretical potential, its about a present readiness to build a fully indigenous plane by dint of having in your country a long lived industrial base with the manpower, knowledge, institutional and industrial experience in absolutely all areas of military aircraft design. Is there a company or group of companies in business all of which specializes in some area of military aircraft design and are they in business?

In other words, this isn't having the potential to develop the industry domestically, its about having done so already and for a substantial time prior thereby ensuring that you could begin work on one right now with absolutely no overhead or delay without depending on other countries.

>>34788084

The entire thread created around the mooted point over the UK or France who is better :D:D:D:D:DD:D

Whilst the chink shill, shills it all up about how first class Chinese aerospace is despite their most successful export customer remains Pakistan.

Until we see Chinese fighters in the hands of those who actually have money, China will continue to be seen as third rate.

>>34788110
>This isnt about theoretical potential
> its about a present readiness to build a fully indigenous plane by dint of having in your country a long lived industrial base with the manpower, knowledge, institutional and industrial experience in absolutely all areas of military aircraft design.

>In other words, this isn't having the potential to develop the industry domestically
>its about having done so already and for a substantial time prior
>thereby ensuring that you could begin work on one right now with absolutely no overhead or delay without depending on other countries.

Can you not see the contradictions in your post?

>>34787187
Really? Modern low bypass military turbofans are easy?

>>34788102
The only US critical component in the Gripen E is the engine.
As luck would have it, India already got a license for the very same engine, which are/going to be installed in the Tejas.

>>34786460

>who is Boeing

>>34788110
Dude,Im the leaf from an hour ago and I think he knows fully well what everyone in here is talking about, he's just pretending to be retarded in order to avoid admitting that the British are helplessly behind other countries in that regard. Just ignore him since hes not going to give a concise and forthright answer and will instead spend the whole thread bleating about BAE. Even Germany themselves conducted a study on the feasibility of an independent 5th gen solution and quickly realized why Russia and America could do so easily since all they had to worry about was money and not technical expertise, and why for everyone else, it would be a gargantuan industrial task.

What a shitshow

>yfw you found out the gripen started life as a british design

>>34787077
>it's a high speed interceptor meant to leave and come back quickly, not a fucking high loiter time attack craft.

When your bases are near the border of the US and you want to get things well into the northern territories - yeah, range does matter.

>cancelled due to political problems

lol

If that was all there was, then the US wouldn't have cancelled the vastly superior XF-108, which had a higher speed, substantially better range and had missiles that actually work. The Canucks never even managed to get their version of the Sparrow to work, so the Arrow didn't even have an armament.

>yankee mad

lol, wrong hemisphere, try again maybe?

>>34788159
I dont think there are any since i thought that it's extremely obvious what the discussion is.

It isnt
>I CAN DEVELOP THE COMPETENCIES GIVEN ENOUGH TIME AND MONEY AND THEN START WORK ON A JET
Rather, its
>I ALREADY KNOW HOW TO BUILD EVERY SINGLE PART OF IT AND HAVE ALL THE NECESSARY COMPANIES/DESIGN AGENCIES ALREADY IN EXISTENCE

>>34788183
Oh. That explains a lot

>>34787295

>100% French
>Uses a Martin-Baker Ejector Seat

It's very high percentage, but it's not 100%.

>>34788279
>Martin-Baker Ejector Seat
So good even the chinese use it!

>>34787683
>>34787733>>34787791

> the Rafale won EVERY SINGLE RACE gainst it

Except it didn't, given the Typhoon has far more sales. The only released comparison in which the Rafale rated higher was the Swiss competition, which was a top model Rafale against a pre-production low end Typhoon which didn't even have half of its systems installed. It was an IPA aircraft, a two-seater training model not even from the full production line that didn't even have its IRST on board or the software to support sensor fusion.

There's a reason the Germans aren't allowed to handle large Typhoon contracts any more.

>>34787870

Kuwait, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Austria, it's still more, and going B-BUT THOSE ONES D-DON'T COUNT is just pathetic. It's got far more operating nations.

>lol no, the only thing is that Meteor missile, which is made in MBDA France and don't need no bong shit will use French software

Meteor is a British led missile, and the French ones are gimped one-way datalink only ones anyway.

>>34788183
>the British are helplessly behind other countries in that regard

Now regardless of what THAT poster has said. I wouldn't certainly agree to that statement either. The UK Aerospace worth in exports is about roughly double of Canada, is 6th for worlds arms exports and would have been 4th or 5th top defense spender and brexit not happened.

So I'm not so sure the UK could not muster something whilst Canadian could.

>>34788337
What the fuck does Canada have to do with this conversation besides me being Canadian? Have you become so abjectly insecure a people that the only way you can build up some national pride is by comparing yourself to a country that has never been a factor in this domain?

Can the English get any more pathetic?

>>34787737
Remind me again which French BVR missile the Rafale is using

>>34788330
>Austria
Didn't they decide to dump their Eurofighters?
There was too many hidden costs, bribes and expensive upgrades leading to Austria only being able to fly in fair weather during office hours carrying a single short range IR missile.

>>34788590 is >>34788080 not you? I was assuming so.

Apologizes if it is not.

>>34787733
>Gripen C is inferior to a Legacy Hornet

Is it really?

>>34787737
>Even Chine had two, but curiously, where is yours?

Bongs eternally BTFO.

>>34788181
TBF Boeing haven't designed a successful fighter since the P-26 peashooter.
Their most recent attempt was the X-32 and that thing was terrible.

>>34788772
He said aircraft manufacturer, not fighter manufacturer (and even there Boeing has stuff like the F-15 and Super Hornet if you want to count their Douglas acquisitions). Even just sticking to military aircraft, Boeing has it's fingers in way more pies than BAE.

And there's not really a market in the US for a new fighter right now, so it's not like they have a whole lot of chances to show off.

File: the fuck is that!.png (89KB, 300x228px) Image search: [Google]

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So... anyone of you gentlemen knows what the heck is this crap ? i found it a week ago and i've Wasted my Google ability to find what the hell it is.
seems like a drone used to test a radar manufacturer instruments, but that gives me some kind of photoshop vibes.

>>34787733
Meh, i live in that shitty country and i can tell you guys, The Gripen might be a shitty jet, but somebody in the high ranks after the tests was paid from some politicians to fix the Results a bit so they would end up going on putting together with Ducttape the F-5s and spare their money for something else like trains.

>>34788967
Wonder how your confederation works internaly, how the german/french/italian regions finds a consensus on how to outfit your army and what to buy.

>>34786699
as a leaf you must be retarded to not see that BAE is in the golden boys club with Boeing, Lockheed and Northrop Grumman

>>34789721
A more accurate description would be for BAE to be the errant boy of the golden boys club. At one time it was a full fledged member but it lost its status and is only an honorary member at best. Dassault is the try-hard that wants in but get rebuffed everytime it apply.
You can fill in for the others.

>>34789819
Not even a Brit, but BAE is a factor. A bona fide big dog in this industry. I know that you're all shitting on the Brits in this thread, but dont spread lies.

>>34789721
>>34789888
BAE is competitive in general terms as a major arms dealer, it's not really competitive with Boeing and Lockheed in terms of military aviation though, the numbers are just far too different. It's more Northrop-tier as far as that goes

I mean hell, the C-130 alone would put Lockheed solidly above BAE in terms of sheer output. Airbus is the real European competitor in terms of aviation. BAE has other shit going for it, but not aviation.

>>34786154
>France
REEEEE RAFALE IS SHIT REEEEE IT'S MADE OF BALSA WOOD AND RUNS ON WINE REEE THE MISSILES ARE JUST CHAMPAGNE BOTTLES GUIDED BY A MINIATURE MONKEY REEEE

Holy shit I won't even comment on the retarded retardation spewed by some britbong child later on, this shit is so fucking ridiculous even on yahoo answers or youtube people are less obnoxious.

Holy shit. Pretending Dassault stole the design of the Eurofighter. HOLY SHIT. This is like trolling 101. Even on F-16.net or keypublishing every francophobe would tear the guy appart for stating this king of utter nonsense.
Oh /k/ what have you become ? Now I understand why people like Oppenheimer went out.

>>34789888
>>34789721
Which military aircraft currently in western service carries the BAe name?

>>34786154
Basically any industrialized country could in theory develop a fighter, but economic reality is against it.

>>34788330
>Austria
Austria is getting rid of their Typhoons. Too expensive and overall the deal is considered to be a massive fraud. They spent about 100 million on lobbying to get the deal done, Eurofighter maintenance bill has gutted Austrian Air Force.

>>34788967
Gripen was only plane that was evaluated that Swiss Air Force could afford.

>>34788064
Nigga you fucking serious? Its a B-17.

Funfact, the Su-27 is like 2 feet shorter than the B-17

>>34791701
>any industrialized country could in theory develop a fighter
if you really think that, you have no idea what goes into a modern (5th gen) plane

>>34791571
>Even on F-16.net or keypublishing every francophobe
welcome to 4chan, where stupidity and ignorance has no consequences.

>>34792200
It isn't the engineering part that is the limit. It is economic part, most countries aren't willing to turn into north korea for the best fighter in the world. It is cheaper than that to import fighters.

>>34792566
You are incredibly stupid.

>>34791679
Hawk,125, 146, harrier II, gulfstreams...
SPECAT, Panivia and eurofighter technically

>>34788279
Fun fack about Martin Baker :

the build it with Safran :
http://www.safran-martin-baker.com/fr

As french ejection seat goes through the houd and have other special adaptations it's not 100% but a fairly high percentage made in france.

>>34788637
>>34791701

>Austria is getting rid of their Typhoons. Too expensive and overall the deal is considered to be a massive fraud.

It was Austria's own fault. They were offered much cheaper in the long term Tranche 2 new-builds, but their MoD sperged out and demanded immediate savings, so took second hand Tranche 1's, which required a LOT more money to later upgrade to keep track.

Add on that Austria implemented a "buy as needed" for parts, rather than purchasing cheaper bulk stockpiles.

End result, they were paying a ridiculous amount more money for the plane than any other operator is, and then decided to go down the "muh bribes" route (which is something that happens in every aircraft contract ever) to try and blame the Consortium for their own retardedness.

If they'd bought the Tranche 2 + spares originally, as the Consortium explicitly told them, then they wouldn't be in this situation.

>>34793889
Safran makes the parachute and survival pack

>>34787480
>You realise France took all the design work from BAE's EAP then tweaked it?

Here we go again. That's the step that make you sunk from mere BAEfanboy to tabloid addict retard.

>>34794738
Not that guy but isn't it possible that Dassault used things they learnt during the Eurofighter program to make the Rafale?
France was a partner after all and they had access to the documentation, to not use it would be like reinventing the wheel.

>>34794738
Citation needed.

>>34794248
If they bought T2 Eurofighter they would have to pay a significantly larger cost initially, money they simply did not have. They would also still be without a fighter that could do ground attack in any meaningful way.
Austria should have bought Gripen, a small neutral country has no need for an expensive high altitude interceptor.
Their military wanted the Gripen to begin with but the politicians where bribed and here we are today with austria having spent ten years and countless of billions on a useless fighter and they are finally about to buy the fighter they ought to have bought to begin with.

>>34786154
Japan

>>34794852
when dassault left the program it was nothing technical yet, just a financial program. they left mostly because France wanted a navalised plane while uk and germans thought it was useless and too expensive for them

>>34787988
That would be racist

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>>34787706

>>34787870
This intake kinda makes me want to have sex with it... Am I the only one?

>>34793810
Jaguars and tornadoes are not purely british projects.

>>34794248
>their MoD sperged out
tl;dr bribery

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>>34786154
Jesus this thread
Smh

>>34787870
>Eurofighter:
>Kuwait, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Austria(soon ex-operator)

>Rafale :
>Egypt, India, Qatar, possibly UAE

>Gripen
>Brazil, Thailand, Czech Republic, South Africa, Hungary, Botswana all but confirmed

It is fun that Gripen has more export customers and more potential buyers than any of the other European fighters.

>>34787187
Well, sure, any country can make a Cessna clone and Rhodie-rig it with guns and light rockets to make a cheap attack plane, but designing military aircraft from the ground up isn't as simple.

>>34795604
smaller deals though.

>>34795968
>but designing military aircraft from the ground up isn't as simple.

It also takes time, which can be an issue if you risk getting invaded tomorrow, but nobody wants to sell anything worth keeping in their because they too risk invasion, or are already in all out war. Military aircraft in '39 wasn't the buyers market.

This is also part of why the arms industry is such a political clusterfuck. Everyone wants to make as much as possible on their own, because not doing that means your military capacity depends on the goodwill of those who are making the shit you need. But this shit is expensive, so everyone really wants to have a bunch of people help them out with paying the bill. Thus we get a very overcrowded market, add in the political backdrop (both the direct, national security, and the indirect, keeping your voters employed) and the massive amounts of money floating around and it's quite the stew.

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>>34796107
>worth keeping in their
worth keeping in the air

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>>34787834
>chink triggered hard
Got some bad news for you Chang

>>34795991
True but the Brazil deal has a definite chance at becoming much larger. Even bigger, Gripen might get a +100 plane deal with India, now that the F-16 is out, Gripen is the only true contender left.

>>34786503

Italy aka we don't want it so let's make a

>G-91
especially the G-91Y without trying to fix airflow problems related to AOA which caused flameouts and deaths
>AMX
whelp we're spending too much,let's save some money by equipping it with bogus engines
>F-104G/S
I think 10 of them are still stuck somewhere at Capofrasca range due flameouts caused by purge gas ingestion
>Tornado ADV
Such is wasting money for nothing
>Time to F-16! after all we waited 30 years
Let's take some ADF from the desert and give them a name

Face it the only partially good things my country can do are those pesky 339 and its half a slav of a replacement.

>>34788229

cause the Sparrows used by burgers in Nam worked

>>34788199
Nigga what?

>>34796159
shitty artile and research at best

Only America and Russia are the ones with top flight expertise in the field as their domestic industry has been designing and building jets continuously since the 30s, and throughout every generation of military jets.

We (UK) were once factors but since we lacked the deep pockets of Americans and the political reasons to keep an oversized jet industry running, we essentially fell of the map. Though individually, Rolls Royce, BAE, and sundry other English firms still stand prominent and are peers with American industry leaders. I mention Americans only because everyone else lags behind us. I really dont mean to be vain but contrary to German and French fantasies, we outmatch continentals in almost every part of military aircraft research.

Then there's France, with Sweden right behind and China a tier below due to their late start, though make no mistake; the Chinese are dead set on achieving technological parity with Yanks and Vatniks and are tirelessly hard at work. Give it a decade or two and the Chinese will have caught up with both. They have the money, the power and national will to set as much money on fire as is necessary to buy them membership in the big boy club. There is absolutely no way in which any individual European country can compete with China.

India is currently hopeless(the fact that the Tejas, a bad 3rd gen attempt, took that long to materialize is unflattering to both industry and country)

>>34796159
>inspired by ancient greek art
really? where are the gay sex statues?

>>34799467
>China a tier below due to their late start
nigga are you seriously suggesting that the fucking PRC is BEHIND SWEDEN?

>>34799623
#SAVAGE BANT

>>34799668
Were talking about technical expertise, not industrial capacity so yes, China is a bit behind Sweden.

>>34799740
>China is a bit behind Sweden
in what?
Sweden can't build an engine, so that's out of the discussion
Electronics? You think Ericsson with its meager budget and stale products can really compete against Chinese AESA?
As far as airframe goes, let's be honest here, Sweden doesn't have the budget to compete.

SAAB is a cost competitor.

>>34788229
>Arrow didn't even have an armament

It had the Genie nukes.

>>34799850
>Sweden can't build an engine
To be frank, neither can China. They build what amounts to russian knockoffs and they are renowned for being awful.
Volvo does the same thing but they use good American engines instead and they pay a license fee.

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>>34791679
.

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>>34801069
>>34791679
..

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>>34801091
>>34791679
...

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>>34801118
>>34791679
....

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>>34801144

>>34800204
>To be frank, neither can China.
>they are renowned for being awful.
stop pulling shit out of your ass. Engine is one of the their recognized weaknesses, true, but that doesn't mean an engine industry doesn't exist.

WS-10A is already flying, WS-15 soon.

All you have to look at are the AL-31F orders to Russia. If J-11/15/16 airframe numbers exceed that, you know they're flying domestics. And I doubt they would put a truly subpar engine into their premier 4th gen fighter.

>>34802138
> And I doubt they would put a truly subpar engine into their premier 4th gen fighter.

Which is quite literally why they are purchasing Saturns. Did you even read your comment my dude?

>>34802207
>Did you even read your comment my dude?
Did you?
>All you have to look at are the AL-31F orders to Russia. If J-11/15/16 airframe numbers exceed that, you know they're flying domestics.
Adding triple digit numbers too fucking hard for you?

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>>34802226
>And I doubt they would put a truly subpar engine into their premier 4th gen fighter.
>In every news report, China still determined to purchase AL31 motors from Russia due to shortcomings of indigenous efforts

Again, do you fail to see how the two connect?

>>34802284
Do you suffer from dyslexia, autism, Down syndrome, or a combination of all three?

>>34802325
I autistically enjoy replying to the undeniably brain damaged.

If you still struggle to figure out why China LITERALLY tried and abandoned their WSs in favor of Russian blowers, you probably shouldn't be in this thread.

>>34786154
>Canada

>>34803225
>Bombadier
>Avro

>>34802360
you do realize WS-10A is in service right now in J-16s, right?

Why don't you stop reading 4chan threads from 2008?

>>34802138
>J-11/15/16
>WS-10
Powered by a substandard engine, worse than both western and russian alternatives, took ages to develop and is at the level of cold war tech. Also reverse engineered from foreign design.
Sweden can literally do better.

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>>34786154
>Canada
lmao no sorry leaf

>>34786728
Didnt Rolls Royce go through that big problem with delivering faulty aircraft engines?

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>>34801669
>Which military aircraft currently in western service carries the BAe name?

>F-35 doing PR
>BAE painted on side
>F-35 flies away
>CARRYING the BAE name with it

Oh look I can drawn pretty lines to

British are literally vatniks and fatniks squared. This delusion, holy fuck.

>>34806849
>fatnik
Vatnik plz go

>>34805349
fuck, I had to drive past that billboard everyday to get to work. My tax dollars are paying for that shit too. US annex us please.

>>34805165
>Sweden can literally do better.
You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

If sweden can, sweden would have.

And why would the chinese put an inferior engine into their top gen4 fighter when they have access to al31f?

>>34806849
I'm not even bong. BAE is probably about as american as LhM ad GD at this point, both have operations in both america and the US.

>>34806920
sounds like you need to check your privilege, whiteboy

>>34794870
Yes indeed, fucking give me source about your retarded claim.

>>34801669
Buddy boy, more than 1600 companies are involved in the production. 15% of the aircraft is already "made in britain", and BAE has facilities in other places too.

>>34806939
> Step 1 Accuse someone of quoting tabloid journalism
> Step 2 Get asked for Sources that Rafale did not use BAE tech
> Step 3 Demand the source of the tabloid journalism quote
Cough up son you've admitted your own guilt.

>>34786958
We shut down your gay little Canandian plane because you syrup drinking retards couldn't understand that inviting Soviet spies into the program is not a good way to insure victory in WW3.

>>34806925
>If sweden can, sweden would have.

why? Buying american or british is cheaper than developing it yourself.

>>34806506
Again, until its called the BAE F35 Lighting, BAE is irrelevant.

>>34806849
This. At least Amerilards and vatniks are sometimes being ironic with their excessive chauvinism and have all of the technological accomplishments to back up their arrogance in these discussions.

Brits on the other hand are little more than beggars and a 2nd rate power who fancy themselves otherwise and still try to plead with everyone to treat them as if they are still relevant military players. Youre quite literally nothing more than a slightly more relevant Canada at this point.

>>34806960
We're still waiting for a British led 5th gen fighter to hit the market. Until then, stop puking that BAE nonsense into every discussion.

>>34807516
It probably will be in uk service.

They have a habit of gutting shit and bring it into UK specs.

>>34807601
BAE still manufactures hawks by the hundred.

Most popular trainer in the world.

So yes they still manufacture aircraft.

>>34806925
>why
Because American engines are cheaper and better and the burgers are happy to sell licenses to Volvo.
Volvo has the ability to build and modify these advanced engines just as China.

>why would china
Because nationalism mixed with drive to develop indigenous industry is a thing.
China is still trying to compete with russian engines and they have yet to show results and remember that russian engines are far removed from western performance and reliability.
Sweden could definitely match china as china stands today but there is not any incentive nor market to do so.

>>34807615
>British led 5th gen fighter to hit the market.
>5th gen fighter

I swear you people are even more retarded than our burger neighbours

>>34787077
At least the F22 saw production m80.

>>34807689
>Other than America, Russia, Canada, Sweden and France, are there any other countries in this world with an extensive and respectable military-aircraft manufacturing capability? Or is everyone else essentially braindead when it comes to airplanes?
Where in the thread does it say it has to be 5th gen?

They're working on a 5th gen for the roaches, Drones for Bong, and stealth with the nips.

>>34796611
>being this retarded that you don't know what the sparrow 2 program was

just kys my man

>>34799958
nigga the government got kicked out when they wanted to use genies for f-101s, the arrow had no munitions once the sparrow 2 program foundered as they didn't like falcons

no idea why syrupcucks still think the arrow had any chance in hell when the threat of Soviet bombers was coming to an end and other, better systems were already cancelled by the evil muh usa, i swear you retards actually believe The Arrow documentary and it's pathetic.

>>34787480
I believe BAE is third behind LM and Boeing.

>>34807731
The Arrow is something steeped in myth and legend here in Canada. It gives flag wavers something to gather around and beat their chests over as an example of (massively exaggerated) Canadian potential, especially in view of American, British, and Russian dominance of the 50s aerospace game. The actual truth is that the Arrow would have been obsolete on arrival, as ICBMs had reached maturity by this point and both America and Soviets were cancelling all of their comparable projects as it was clear where the technological wind was blowing.

TL:DR; The Arrow is our embellished WE WUZ GREAT ENGINEERS AN SHEEEEEEIT cultural memory. So if you see a leaf claiming that the Arrow was some ultra advanced 71st gen intergalactic interceptor, just let them have it as we dont have much in the way of Cold War aerospace laurels.

>>34807859
>American, British, and Russian

And Swedish

>>34807873
Yeah, them too I guess.

>>34807898
Otherwise I compleatly agree. I especially love this Arrow 2.0 jerk off.

>>34793810
Harrier II is not a purely British project.

>>34808036
only AV8B had MdD input, GR5, GR7 & GR9 are purely BA/ BAE

>>34807859
Mostly I just like the Arrow because it looked sexy, and if I've learned anything from the military it's that looking good is more important than actual effectiveness.

>>34803936
So fucking nothing then? The CF-100 was the first and last good aircraft that Canada produced.

>>34793448
You are full of shit. It isn't engineering that limits countries that are developing fighters. It is economy that is limiting factor. Countries like Netherlands, Belgium or a fucking leaf could develop fighter, but doing so would mean billions of investment in producing engines, radars, materials for airframe and so on. It is easier to spend some billions for importing fighter than tens of billions build fighter.

>>34808061
>only AV8B had MdD input, GR5, GR7 & GR9 are purely BA/ BAE

Nope. GR5/7/9 have plenty of McDonnell-Douglas input.

>>34809512
With what expertise? They don't have the industry or the training to make fighter aircraft. It'd take them decades to build that up.

>>34809512
He's calling you a retard because you seem to forget that there has to be a lot in place before one can begin "producing engines, radars, materials for airframe and so on"

As a German, even our defense agencies have conducted studies into our aerospace capabilities and have reaffirmed what were already established truths;

- Industrial prerequisites (with established and active industry being the foremost requirement)
- A history of experienced R&D competency
- A healthy amount of institutional history and experience in these matters
- And also a wealth of domestic IP.

These are the essential yet intangible factors that you keep ignoring in your really shallow estimation of what goes into building a competitive and modern jet fighter.

Moreover, these are the reasons why America and Russia will easily put together a 6th gen prototype in a few months time if absolutely pressured to do so and for the rest of us, why this would take a literal decade or more. No other countries have the same project readiness that Americans and Russians have secured thanks to the last 70 years of continuous and accelerating industry. Every country can produce one given enough time. What separates every country from the big players that we are discussing ITT is that they have virtually zero overhead to deal with because everything's already in place. They have immediate PROJECT READINESS.

actual TL:DR analogy; Anyone can experiment with making an original pizza, however someone who owns a pizza parlor, has all the ingredients prepared, has decades of experience, and has the ovens already running is undeniably worlds ahead of someone equipped with nothing more than a recipe and hope.

I'm not sure if you're the bong who has been sperging out throughout this whole thread but it has made me realize just how delusional and dense brits can be at times.

>>34809595
>With what expertise? They don't have the industry or the training to make fighter aircraft. It'd take them decades to build that up.

Maybe decade if they are willing to sacrifice investment in other sectors of economy. North Korea can easily afford to have nuclear weapons program and intercontinental ballistic missile program, at minor cost of complete economic isolation. It boils down to political will to do necessary sacrifices. Most countries just don't have that political will. As side note, nuclear weapons and intercontinental ballistic missiles are far better investments than domestic fighter, far better deterrence value than a fighter has.

>>34809738

He is calling me retard because he has very limited arguments. There isn't anything magical in water in US, Russia, China or France that makes them capable of building fighters. Those countries have economic means to do so and political will to invest in industries necessary to do so. There is one much smaller country that builds it's own fighters, Sweden. Their entire defense policy has been essentially industrial subsidy for Saab since end of the Cold War.

>>34810070
>There isn't anything magical in water in US, Russia, China or France that makes them capable of building fighters. Those countries have economic means to do so and political will to invest in industries necessary to do so

No one is arguing against this.

>There is one much smaller country that builds it's own fighters, Sweden. Their entire defense policy has been essentially industrial subsidy for Saab since end of the Cold War.

OP literally mentioned Sweden in his post. Literally everyone in this thread has already acknowledged Sweden as a decent industry player.

Did you read any of what he or I said or are you just stubbornly shouting everyone else down by responding to a non-existent argument?

>>34810230
>OP literally mentioned Sweden in his post.

I think most of the incredulity in this thread is that OP mentioned Sweeden and Canada over the UK.

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>>34807859
>tfw you will never live to see the SAAB Arrow.

>>34802284
>china still determined to purchase AL31 motors from Russia
They purchase AL31 because they do not want to rework the current J10 series.
Engine change requires reworks on the frame and test flights.

>>34810070
>He is calling me retard because he has very limited arguments.
I'm calling you a retard because you're fucking retarded. AS FUCK.
You're so fucking stupid you're literally trying to divorce economic productivity from the inherent technical basis and assigning a meaningless dollar value in a fucking vacuum.

Big players are big because their marginal costs are low. These costs are low because of technology maturity and economy of scale. This goes down the chain.

You whole premise:
>It isn't engineering that limits countries that are developing fighters. It is economy that is limiting factor.
Is completely false because without the technology, you cannot develop due to immense barrier of entry, but with the tech base in place, your barrier of entry does not exist. Look no further than fucking Russia after the wall came down.

To summarize, you're a fucking moron for trying to qualify the components of an aircraft industry without quantifying the technology base, it's most critical component.

>>34800204
>>34807681

>Volvo has the ability to build and modify these advanced engines just as China.
Volvo Aero doesn't exist anymore. I don't think there is a Swedish military turbofan manufacturer anymore.

>>34811455
AL31FN orders are separate from AL31F orders.

Anyway, supposedly J-10C has a domestic engine. Most likely a version of the WS-10

>>34811760
>Volvo Aero doesn't exist

Retard. They changed the name, they're still producing from the same factory, same workers and same place.

>>34811870
>On 6 July 2012 Volvo Aero was acquired by the British aerospace manufacturer GKN

>>34811870
>They changed the name
no, they were acquired by a british company. Volvo Aero no longer exists.

Now go be a retard elsewhere.

>>34811882
Yeah, so? You think they tethered all the factories to helicopters and flew them to GB?

>>34809738
>>34811739
Why are both of you still replying to that retarded Brit?

>>34811912
A change of ownership isn't a change of name, is it? If you can't be precise about such a minor detail, your analysis of a fairly complex product from an even more complex industry should probably avoided entirely.

>>34811936
Because I like to make fun of mentally challenged people, and it's rather crass to do it IRL.

>>34811882
>>34811889
GKN Aerospace Sweden AB has the ability to produce advanced engines then.
Volvo Aero only really changed name when it was bought, other than name nothing has changed in Swedens ability to build aircraft.

>>34811983
>Swedens ability to build aircraft.
so...still using American engines for the Gripen.
Ok, I guess bringing Volvo Aero up was pointless because they can't make a competitive modern low bypass military turbofan anyway.

>>34811961
Alright, i'll bite. What complex effects has the acquisition of Volvo Aero had on jet engine production in Sweden?

>>34811997
>still using American engines for the Gripen.
Unlike china who uses unlicensed russian and US ripoff engines?

>>34811997
If it wasn't for the fact that the RM12 performs better than the F404, sure.

>>34812048
Like what? They buy al31fs, u gonna talk about the cfm56 core next?

Your level of butt hurt and denial is off the charts.

>>34812083
Does it perform better than the 414?

It's a rhetorical question btw.

>>34812122
It's not a rhetorical question, its a retarded question. RM12 only shares around 35% of components with the F404, much less so with RM12B. In fact, many developments the Volvo Aero made with RM12 was implemented by GE in F414 (as part of a shared development agreement). Volvo Aero never designed anything meant to compete with the F414,

Fan, compressor, compressor spool, hubs, seals, discs/case as well as the entire afterburner is completely designed and built in Sweden.

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>>34812112
You might possibly be a chink but pic related still applies.
So yes, china steal designs, Sweden licenses them with the difference that Sweden get much better engines with much better quality and workmanship out of it.
What of it?

>>34812294
So why is the 414g powering all future gripens?

>>34812329
>Sweden get much better engines with much better quality and workmanship out of it.
lol you're retarded. A 404 isn't even in the same class as an al31f, and new gripens will be using an american engine.

You still haven't pointed out which china stole.

>>34812329
What of it? Your making incorrect statements to support an incorrect prespective makes you look like the fucking retard you are.

Do us all a favor and stop posting. Forever.

>>34812379
Good thing that the Gripen uses a RM-12, an engine not even in the same class as the very large and unreliable AL-31 engines then.
And are you trying to pretend WS-10 is not full of ripoff designs? It is literally the Sonichu of the aviation industry with the same quality to boot.

>>34812354
Political reasons. It was supposed to be powered by RM12B, but during (i think it was) swiss trials, the f414 was chosen instead.

It does mean more performance, but it fucks up the logistic chain drastically. Fairly sure that its political pressure from across the pond.

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>>34812393
>being this bootyblasted over the poor state of chinese engine designs
Take a chill pill chinknik :^)

>>34812515
>it fucks up the logistic chain drastically
Don't kill me if I'm wrong but won't they just produce the F414 locally?

>>34812514
Yep, u are confirmed for retardation. Enjoy repeating your special ed classes.

>>34812515
No, it's cost. Unit price for rm12b would have been too high.

>>34812549
I'm glad you're accepting of the fact that you're a retard.

>>34812600
Doubling down on ad hominem when arguments fail and facts prove you wrong?
You have yet to show anything but autistic screeching insofar.

>>34812593
As i understand it, no. They will even have to send the engines across the pond atleast once a year for maintenence.

Then again, all details are not known. It sounds to me like they're currently actively trying to kill their domestic engine production (maybe preparing for joining NATO long-term?).

>>34812600
>Unit price for rm12b would have been too high.

No, it would've been much cheaper, as well as the money staying inside the country - which is an enormous plus if you're seeing things macroeconomically, which politicians tend to do.

1. Thrust increase during takeoff - +10% RM12EF - +14% F414G
2. Thrust increase during full flight envelope: +9-22% RM12EF - +12-23% F414G
3. Life cycle cost: 30-40% lower for RM12EF - 30-40% higher for F414G

>>34812649
>will
Might. No contracts are written as of yet. The ruckus is about an administrative change in how the maintenance for Gripen E is contracted. Before, the Swedish military individually contracted the maintenance, now there will be a single contract with SAAB who in turn will deal with procuring maintenance contracts. It might very well be much cheaper to send to the US but as you say, it will mess with independence as well as loss of experience. There is still a year before anything is decided.

>>34812752
No, it is FMV that administrates the maintenance of swaf engines. Volvo aero does not without significant investment have the capacity to maintain f414s, and doing so would mean a removal of the rm12 production and maintenance which is silly (given sunk costs).

>>34812830
Swedish media reported earlier this year that there would be a single contract with SAAB.

>Tidigare slöt FMV avtal med flera olika företag. För att få bättre ekonomisk kontroll har man den här gången bara ett avtal och det är med Saab. Sedan är det upp till Saab att förhandla fram avtal om underhåll med mera
https://www.svd.se/mangmiljardstrid-om-motorer-till-nya-gripen-e
The short of it is that FMV and SAAB has a single contract as opposed to the former multiple contracts.
For those who do read Swedish the same article sheds some light on the debate about maintenance but most parties agree that the majority or all of the maintenance will take place in Sweden.