Army Kicks Off Competition for 7.62mm Interim Service Combat Rifle

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>>34768464

Can't wait for the next war to be in an environment where a rifle in 7.62 nato won't perform well.

>>34768464
Thank kek above that RFPs rarely go anywhere.

>>34768464
AR-10.

>>34768464
More wothless tests and more welfare to defense contractors.
Just fucking use m995 or the 308 equivalent or get some 20 inch barrels and use m193 or better yet the new m855a1 with the hardened penetrator. What they want they already fucking have. Or just make a new hardened steel core bullet if the tungsten carbide m995 is too expensive.

>>34768629

This.

we all know the sensible answer would be an AR10.

>lots of american companies already make them and parts
>minimal training needed. just teach soldiers to shoot past 300m better.

though we all know that the army will probably adopt a SCARH because they suck FNs dick.

>>34768658
Or
Or
Ooooor
Just use 20 inch barrel ars with m995 or a new bullet with a full steel core not just a penetrator hardened to 800 brinell

>>34768670
would have to get new completed uppers for all the M4s and M4A1s we just bought to replace M16s.

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>>34768464
This

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>force everyone to adopt .308 because muh heritage despite .280 being a more practical cartridge
>adopt a modernized garand because muh heritage despite the FN FAL and AR10 shit all over it
>realize that a 10 pound wood and steel rifle with heavy ammo is shit and lol bail after 9 years, leaving everyone stuck with their .308 rifles because of forced standardization
>other countries are only not just catching up with adopting 5.56 rifles
>allow women in combat rolls
>decide it is a great idea to adopt a .308 rifle again

fucking lel

>>34768670
Or use ADVAP in M240s, M40s, and whatever the new DMR is; and use M80A1 in M4s.

Shit's not rocket science but big army could fuck up a wet dream.

Why not adopt .45 ACP again while they're at it?

>7.62

yikes. with that 100 trillion a year budget they really cant figure out 260 is a superior caliber.

>>34768675
No you wouldn't, just take off the barrel and get a 20 inch one. And do they still have the 20 inch m16s? I'm sure they do in some warehouse.

>The Army's Interim Combat Service Rifle should have either 16-inch or 20-inch barrels
Why? The M16 was ditched by the marines and has been more or less phased out by the army because it was long and the extra length and weight didn't really translate into improved performance downrange compared to the 14.5 M4A1. Why are we doing this all over again, trying to make everybody into an DM.
>So anons what's the best tool for job?
Probably a SCAR, SOCOM already use them and the military gets them way cheaper.

H&K M110A1, the amount of waste in the US military must be astronomical.

>>34768700
so now we are sending a hundreds of thousands of rifles to depot level maintenance to be converted. then we have to convert them back to 14.5 barrels when we inevitably change ammo again.

>>34768670
>>34768675
>>34768680
Army should have just fielded all Scar Hs plus 5.56 conversion kits. This would also allow for 6mm conversions in the future.

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>New handgun isn't even drop safe
>Going back to battle rifles

Can someone just end our suffering?

>>34768745
>plus 5.56 conversion kits
Do these even exist? I recall the SCAR Heavy was originally supposed to be convertible to 5.56, 7.62x39 and 6.8, but Ive literally never seen or heard of this feature in action.

someone just needs to make an ar-15 with a bigger magwell to fit larger mags so you can load 80-90 grain 223 bullets and take advantage of their out of control ballistic coefficients.

>low recoil
>308 range
>twice as light

also trijicon needs to make a 4x acog with 3 inches of optimal eye relief instead of 1.5. army is ran by retards and people making contract money.

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>>34768782

>>34768629
like what?

>>34768810
suburban I'm assuming. Don't higher power rounds such as a .308 punch through a target with out mushrooming at close ranges? Am ballistic novice so I could be wrong.

>>34768810
Like Iraq? Big nato is for the long shot open areas of Afghan. As soon as you go into the city, 556 is the way to go.

>>34768810
Jungles of Venezuela

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LMT LMT LMT

STOP BUYING FOREIGN

>>34768798
Is it really a "conversion kit" when the only common parts are the blank upper receiver and the stock?

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>>34768836
Fucking this.

>>34768793

the extra heavy .223 bullets drop too much. Really should just adopt Mk262Mod1 for all M4A1 Carbines, and start the M4A2 revision.

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> less than 12 pounds unloaded and without an optic
Fucking christ thats way to large of an upper limit, the CSASS was required to be less that 9.

>>34768464
SCAR-H (MK17) to be honest. Although I think that a battle rifle would only be useful in an environment like that of Afghanistan.

>>34768810
Any urban/forest/jungle environment.

>>34768464
>Alright, let's adopt the .280 rou-
>NOPE YOU FUCKERS WE'RE DOING .308!
>Alright, we've all adopted .308 now to se-
>FUCK YOU ALL, CHANGE TO 5.56mm!
>Okay, okay, now we're all at 5.56mm it's time to-
>BACK TO .308! NOW NOW NOW!

Make up your mind.

>>34768870
they drop less than light bullets you inbred spastic fuck do you even BC? 80 grain is better than mk262 but it wont fit in ar mags because its too long.

>>34768880
>those Indian food diarrhea colors

>>34768836
I'm okay with this.
*bartocci's internally*

>>34768846
>muh aluminum handgards

>>34768913
Nothing obliges you to suck our dick but you just love it so much.

>>34768942
Should have just gone with .280.

Thanks Churchill.

>Muh English speaking peoples uniting as one

>yfw the DPMS G2 308 Recon/MOE/Hunter would fit the role better than anything except a scar 17 but will never be accepted because it's not a tactical/military company/product

>>34768928
That guy is a modern fudd.

>>34768810
Moon battles.

They should just use the M14

>>34768686
You talk like a .308 is hard to control.

>>34768959
>namefags still not understanding what fudds are
And his extremely focused experience is with ARs, I trust his opinion on who is the best Colt successor

>>34768958
protip; there are Bushmaster AR-15's in the US arsenal.

the G2 has reliability issues, btw.

>>34768967
kys

>>34768936
what the fuck else are they going to be?

The AR 10. It's already a well understood and cheap to produce platform. 100s of people produce various. 308 loads and 7.62 nato is available commercially for. 41c/r in small orders. It's not the best but it's good enough

>>34768986
no u

>>34768973
What about the gen 1 design? I built up a carbine off the old oracle and I've only had 2 fte in the entire time I've had it- both in the first 100 rnds. What fails?

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>Final contestants will be
>SCAR-H
>MDR
>an SR-25
>and the M14
>The M14 wins again

Perfect

>>34768962
What would be the ideal weapon for zero gravity combat?

>>34769020
AR15

>>34768968
Harder to control in full auto vs 556, and that's the only comparison that really matters. Then everything associated with it weights more so you carry less of it on top of the already too much equipment.

>>34769020
Gunpowder won't work so probably some sort of compressed air rifle

>>34768973
>protip; there are Bushmaster AR-15's in the US arsenal.
wrong
t. bartocci

>the G2 has reliability issues, btw.
let me guess the nutn video?

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>>34768464
>US military trials
>Picking anything
>Ever

>>34768793
I wish but the entire world is married to AR mags. High BC 5.56 would be nice

hopefully the 5.56 meme can finally die.

>>34768917
> slower bullets
> drop less
???
I'm not that guy but please elaborate

>>34769043
>Gunpowder won't work
y not

>>34769043
Don't most modern cartridges have both the oxidizer and propellant? Considering cartridges are sealed, I don't see why space would be an issue, other than recoil management in microgravity environs.

>>34769122
Yes.
Other than recoil, heat is a considerable problem.

>>34769020
Machetes

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>>34768828
>suburban combat

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SIG 542 come the fuck on plz plz plz
just add some bourgeois m-lok, throw a rail on top and you're done its lighter than a gay ass SCAR too

>>34769020
In the vacuum of space or in a pressurized vessel? If vacuum, use the lowest recoil cartridge possible that will pierce the space suit and torso. Like .17 HM2. If it's pressurized then you need to actually kill him via blood loss so bump up to 5.56.

>>34769043
Nigga

>>34769135
The idea of having to mount the gun to your torso is funny. Then again, firing from the shoulder will make you spin around in zero-G

>>34769083
>us
>caring what allies do or say

>>34768839
What? Yea you converted the rifle to a different caliber using as few parts as possible. How do you define it?

>>34769181

plz plz plz I love swiss guns

>>34769135
Thermal shock, certainly. Going from ambient temperature of 3 Kelvin to whatever the approximate temperature of firing would likely cause damage to the weapon.

Rather than redesign the weapon, an insulated cartridge could be used. As I recall there are Russian or Soviet handguns that use a modified 7.62x39 cartridge that contains the gasses. Insulate the cartridge so thermal shock doesn't fuck up the internals.

I'm not sure how much good rifling will do in space, but friction has to be minimised to be able to have barrels with a practical lifespan. Teflon coated bullets might help, but I can't imagine that being economical. I can't really think of any other solutions without veering off into science fiction territory.

>>34769266
The problem is not thermal shock, the problem is there's no way (beyond radiating it away slowly) for a gun in space to get rid of the heat.

>>34769014
the M14 would win in a tile truck testing competition done by big army.

>>34769263
I dont know, just seems weird. Like selling someone a kit to convert their civic into a lambo, and the kit is just a lambo with no wheels.

>>34769320
Radiating on Earth is slow, sure, but in space it is a bit different. The Stefan-Boltzmann Equation describes the behaviour of radiators depending on their environment.

eσA(T4 - Tc4)=P

Where e is emissivity, σ is Stefan's constant, A is the radiating area, T is the temperature of the radiator and Tc is the temperature of the surroundings. P, in this case, in the net radiated power. I'd imagine that heat dispersal wouldn't be too much of an issue unless in direct radiation such as unobstructed sunlight. In which case, some sort of refrigeration and heat equalization would be needed. I can't think of an effective solution for that outside of specific radiators that aren't exposed to sunlight, like those used on satellites. Even then, those have pipes in order to transfer heat, but the presence of a shadow and direction of the radiator are both problems in that regard.

>>34768464
They're only ordering 50,000 of whichever one wins. This is not a replacement of 5.56, it's the Army getting more DMRs. I for one welcome an American take on the SVD concept.

>>34769014
If this ever happens I'm rebelling against the US government

Is it another "brass does retarded shit for muh legacy and preparing hus CV for pricate stuff" ?

300. blk is basically fucking done for at this point then. If light weight ceramic armor is the chief concern that the modern militarizes are going to base their doctrine around then that will halt the further adoption of all but a very few units.

Is that right, what do you guys think?

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>>34768715
>must be

>>34768715
Freedom ain't free.

>>34768836
These are what the brits got for DMRs, right?

Why not just buy a 7.62 NATO version of the M4

>>34768629
Where can I read more about it? I just have a revolver and a shotgun for home defense, I don't understand this stuff.

>>34769724
I'm pretty sure the NZ army adopted them

>>34769732
so an AR-10?

>force adoption of a .308 rifle because high end body armor can stop M855A1, this same body armor will stop .308
>soldiers are already overburdened with weight, but will be made to carry the same ammunition count despite .308 weighing twice what 5.56 does

>>34769820
Convert it to a bullpup while you are at it

>>34768913
>I know nothing about .280 British except memes

7.62 is too overpowered and 5.56 is too underpowered. A 6.8mm Remington SPC with a longer and heavier bullet would be appropriate.

>>34769874
Add an integral airburst grenade launcher while you're at it too.

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>>34769874
When will the bullpup meme die?

>>34769911
Why would you need bullets when you have airbursting grenades

>>34769896
7.62 is too heavy for a service rifle
5.56 is just right
6.8 is a solution looking for a problem

>>34769924
I still think bullpup's are cute.

>>34769874
so an MDR?

>>34768464
Did you read to the articles end OP? Did you?
>These weapons would be reserved for the Army's most rapid-deployable infantry units.

>>34768464
Army issues official statement regarding testing.
After 5 years and 300 million dollars, no rifles preformed to our standards. We also wasted a ton of money and decided to just stick with SCARs.
We realize we have wasted much time and money for the competitors who were thirsty for that sweet, sweet, DoD money, and for this we apologize.
The Army has decided to simply buy more SCARs.
Thank you.

>>34769935
Suppose you are fighting against a peer force, and then it matters when your weapon can't pierce walls of buildings but your opponents can.
Suppose you can't penetrate their bodyarmor/helmet but they can penetrate yours.

This rifle is going to have to be easily converted to one of the polymer cased 6.5mm rounds, so anything not an AR-10 is out.

>>34769935
5.56 is not sufficient these days when armies around the world are creating better body armors. So the world needs a cartridge slightly more powerful than a 5.56.

>>34769995
What body armor can 6.8 Remington penetrate that M855A1 cannot?

>>34768793
NTC shooting acog

>>34770010
This makes sense if your standard is M193 out of a short barreled rifle.

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>>34768810
Murder

>>34769457
Any caliber kit needs to at the very least change the barrel. Scar needs
>barrel
>bolt
>lower
It takes about 10 mins to switch. The barrel has like 4 screws.

>>34769181
Why do those handguards give me such a hardon?

>>34768464
This goes against literally 50 years of American, NATO, Warsaw Pact, and even fucking Chinese infantry rifle doctrine. EVERYONE has gone to lighter and smaller caliber than .30 ammunition.

>>34769669
.300 niggerout is a meme caliber for people that have the dosh for a suppressor. no military value

7.62 RFN or git out

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>>34769020
G Y R O J E T
Y
R
O
J
E
T

>>34770071
Seems really lame, TBQH. You might as well get a second rifle. THey should have provisions for a magwell adapter or something.

>>34770080
>Chinks
They just copy w/e USA does.

>>34769801
>I don't understand this stuff.
>Where can I read more about it?
What and what.

>muh armor
Why not just develop new ammunition for 5.56? 6.5 CBJ proves you don't even need a rifle caliber to defeat modern armor.

I hope its not a SCAR-H, I hate the uggo boot.

>>34770080
while keeping a full-sized cartridge in service. 7.62 real fuckin' Nato has certainly stuck around, and nugget food is literally the longest-serving military cartridge. 126 years old and still going strong

I dont know about china but I'm pretty sure they use a PKM clone in 7.62x54R as well

>>34768464
I know you boys are assuming that they are discussing 7.62x51 because that's the first thing that comes to mind, but what if they are testing out 7.62x35 AKA .300 BLACKOUT?

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>>34769946
I like all my guns to be cute.

>>34768833
>jungles of venezuela

where they use big ass FALs to this day?

>>34770089
Didn't they literally shoot mini-rockets?

>>34770165
I would be even more ashamed of my country's Army for falling for the meme

>>34770161
>7.62x51 and 7.62x54 have lived forever for a reason!

As MG and DMR rifle food.

>>34770175
I drive a beat to shit corolla up and down a mountain every day. I'd love a jeep or something but you know what?

best tool for the job =/= best tool you can afford

>>34770161
>while keeping a full-sized cartridge in service.
Yea as a machine gun round, not joe shmo with a rifle round.

>>34770093
No. Due to the large 7.62. You can down convert to anything smaller. You can't up convert. Entire rifles are wasteful. Are you no guns or underage? How did you expect conversion kits to function? Just change magazines?

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>>34768464
It's practically guaranteed that it'll be a SCAR or AR-10 derivative like the SR-25 right? Assuming that it even goes through and isn't cancelled at the last minute.

What are the odds that someone will actually try to come up with something new for this?

>>34770143
do you even military industrial complex?

>>34769522
Thats P autisitic desu

>>34770235
It's going to be an HK417 derivative, the Army is already adopting one as the M110A1.

>>34770238
Oh yeah it's all politics and nonsense. But honestly I'm more wondering what's going on the heads of the few defenders of the idea.

The best thing about this is that this proposal will be Commercial off-the-shelf or commercially available off-the-shelf (COTS) just like the MHS pistol program.

This means we will probably get a new generation of battle rifles (biggest competitors will probably be FN MK17 SSR, LMT 308MWS 2.0, HK 417A3, Knights M110 2.0, tavor 308) like we did with windernines (M&P2.0, FN 509, beretta APX, Glock Gen 5 and SIG P320)

>>34769724

Yes and

>>34769815

Yes, though, NZ adopted 5.56

>>34768464
Oh yes, let's waste even more time and money on a program that already happened and already found a suitable candidate.

>>34770234
>
You can't up convert.

No shit, the point is issuing a x51 capable gun makes sense even if used primarily in 5.56.

>Are you no guns or underage?
Older than you and have more guns.

>How did you expect conversion kits to function? Just change magazines?

Issue a x51 capable lower and it could be upper plus bolt or just barrel and bolt. Of course a magwell adapter as well, unless they want to run over sized non-STANAG mags.

>>34769020
Shoulder mounted recoiles rifle in 338 using armor piercing ammo since there's no gravity in space why not arm your space marines with a lot of thick armor.

>>34770010
>WHAT IS M995????
The post

>>34770202

what's wrong with using a larger rifle in the jungle

>>34769093
the longer/heavier bullets are more aerodynamic so while they drop more at short range (by negligible rates) they drop less at long range by a significant margin

>>34769266
>>34769320
>>34769471
I got a stupid idea... we slap tiny AC units onto the gun.

>>34769044
>>protip; there are Bushmaster AR-15's in the US arsenal.
>wrong
>t. bartocci

There are I talked to a friend of my family who saw a few around 2005 in Iraq

those retarded faggots should just go with something they already have:::: the M14

>12lbs
>L1A1 SLR: 9.5lbs empty
>Garand: 9-11lbs depending on wood density
>M14 10lbs *loaded*
>G3A3: 9lbs

Fucking what, are they going to buy a steel block or something?

>>34770624
m14 is meme rifle

>>34770080
This is not a service rifle. It's a DMR to suppliment M4s in Afghanistan.

>>34770249
Adopting the M14 once, let alone twice, means they're retarded and unfit to govern

>>34770718
Idk the M14 is p cool

>>34768655

you are aware how utterly worthless 556 is against anything with mass, and body armor hell sapi plates are not hard to make plus be nice to knock one more kink in the supply chain off.
should go with SCAR 17 and a new ultralight version of the FN MAG or ask for new lmg in 7.62

>>34770816
F R E E F L O A T
R
E
E
F
L
O
A
T

OR

P O I S H I F T
O
I
S
H
I
F
T

m14 is absolutely subhuman for combat. inb4 competition fags who shoot off the same rest every time in the same position.

>>34770835
This is a fine example of dunning kruger.

>>34770861
>implying M14 can't be free floated...ish

There are other reasons to not re-adopt it though, chief among them being that it's really heavy, heaviest of the big three BRs I believe.

>>34770816
M14 was the worst rifle ever adopted by the US.

>>34770879
>dunning kruger.
the infatry guys says 70 percent of their firepower derives from the m240 at the platoon level (granted this could be due to volume of firepower and not cartridge) materials technology is becoming cheaper and true a better cartridge would be great but it will need to overcome 7.62 body armor protection. 3 SABOT is not realistic neither is 280 British in these regards. we are reaching the upper limit of what the traditional cartridge can do. finally I am aware of hte newer 556 cartridge but seriously question inherent flaws in its design, failure to penetrate it one trait we countunially observe with its use as well as providing bass individual user lack of firepower. when I say firepower we are simply discussing a cartrdige ability to overcome obstacles but to deliver most damage possible once breaching the said body into intended target IE human being

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Mfw us military surpises everyone by adopting the vepr in 762x54r

>>34770577
> ballistic coefficient is linear

>>34770972
>the infatry guys says 70 percent of their firepower derives from the m240 at the platoon level (granted this could be due to volume of firepower and not cartridge)

A GPMG is irrelevant to the discussion of a service rifle.

>materials technology is becoming cheaper and true a better cartridge would be great but it will need to overcome 7.62 body armor protection

Existing 5.56 cartridges can overcome 7.62 body armor protection.

>finally I am aware of hte newer 556 cartridge but seriously question inherent flaws in its design

Which would be?

>>34769014
How on earth would the M14 win against a Scar or an SR25, although I do agree, would be a legendary kek

>>34768920
Yeah, they definitely could have done a better job on the color of the receivers, shit is fucking ugly on an otherwise drool worthy rifle.

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>>34770835

>>34770901
nope

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>>34768464
>a M14 in a sniper chassis wins
>mfw

>>34768745
>swapping the lower and all the upper's internals
>(((conversion kit)))

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Push for a 7.62 NATO infantry rifle was the brainchild of an HK gun salesman who was highly connected in the Army. He wanted to push the HK417 (which turns out to be a pretty shitty gun) so he created a powerpoint presentation that top level decision makers would see that emphasized Taliban outranging our guys by hundreds of meters based on by-the-book manual copied max effective range for point targets. So now the viewers of slideshow are like "Holy shit, i knew it was bad but not this bad!"

The HK merchant knows he has them at this point, the hook is in, they believe we're getting hammered in A-stan by small arms when though small arm casualties are the lowest of any conflict we've ever fought. Now its time to set the hook and yank. After showing the graphs of range parity against goat herders with occasional buttfuck rusted PKMs, his next slide is pic related, grossly incorrectly labeled as "Russian infantry squad in Ukraine"

Rooms suddenly smells like feces because a bunch of ignorant brass, who don't know any better but should, just shit themselves.

"Mother of God, do they really have two PKs, a VAL, and a RPK-74 in every squad? As God is my witness, I will fix this!"

HK guy is thrilled, victory is his. But he dies before contract is signed and now HK's 417 has a shitty reputation and most likely won't win the procurement selection for an entire new infantry weapon requirement they created out of thin air in the first place. Instant Karma. RIP IN PISS Jim Schatz.

>>34770540
Mass in space is still mass. Unless you go power armor way and make it mechanized you got same problems with mass as on earth, only difference is your knees don't explode.

>>34771300
>Jim Schatz.
This anon knows what he is talking about.

This is also exactly how the M16A2 solicitation came about.
>What you're telling me the 440m effective range of the M16A1 is outranged by a 490m effective range of the AK-74? My muhrines won't have this at all!

>>34770184
Yes, it was an interesting idea, but had pretty shit accuracy and reliability. At 60 feet the 180 grain "rocket" was going about 1200 fps, so something close to a 10mm auto. Range was limited to about 50 yards though.

>>34769014
>MDR never shows up
>RFB wins

>>34769014
Nah m14 won't even get a spot to even get btfo like glock did.

>>34770835
>DUUUR WATZ IZ HARDNESS
if the projectile is a dense tungsten carbide or some other tungsten alloy and it's going 556 velocities it will zip through any current armor. Hell use the 22 pdk or the 6.8 spc necked down to 22 and m995 with a 20 barrel, even better.

>>34771363
No it isn't. no air resistance and no gravity slowing you down.

>>34768464
>"should we get better ammunition that's better at defeating body armor than basic lead filled FMJ rounds?"
>"goddamn it Jenkins we have 3 billion 7.62 NATO rounds in the depots I'm sure some egghead can make a gun that'll let them kill tanks"
I honestly hope some smarmy motherfucker shows up to this competition with a crate of tungsten tipped 5.56 and asks to borrow an m16a4.

>>34771596
M885 is not lead filled FMJ

Scar-H or usa armed forces is confirmed to be retarded

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>>34768464
I've got your winner right here boys

>>34768464
I hope its a AR-10 style rifle that isn't a H&K so we can finally get a standard AR-10 for the civilian market instead of having to deal with priority bullshit.

>>34770175
They use AK74s.

Why don't we make an actual upgrade and adopt 6.5mm CT or something similar?

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>>34771954
Hahahaha

KAC is proposing at least three different rifles, all with different specs.

>>34770160
>hate the uggo boot.
>Muh looks
Confirmed for never shooting a Scar.

>>34770197
>DMR rifle food
What does the R in DMR stand for fuckhead

>>34771975
Do any of them have forward assists, if not than KAC is fucked because that excuse only works for dmr/sniper rifles.

>>34769020
shotgun firing birdshot

you only have to depressurize their space suit to kill them

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>>34769020

>>34768464

>Let's try in vain to outgun PKM's with service rifles instead of having mission parameters and objectives that make sense

This is retarded. Duelling at range over worthless hills in Afghanistan while being unable to to go to the other guys house and kick the door in.

>>34768810
Next war is a civil one, buddy.

>>34770072
because they sleekly conceal the ultimate sexyness that is an op-rod wrapped in its own return spring

>>34768988
the ar10 was never really finished and has problems because of that.

>>34771366
You don't know what you're talking about.

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>>34772609

>>34768464
Sooo, if the military adopts a new service rifle where do all the m4s go? Do they disperse them upon allies or do they come back into the US somehow either to be scrapped or used for parts?

>>34768600
>Misplaced comma in the tender
>All competitors brought 76.2 mm rocket launchers

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>.308 will be cheap again

Staaaaahp! I can only cum so much!!!

>>34771064

not with U.S military issued cartridges.

>>34770611
My brother who was in Iraq said guys were using grands as general issue as well.

>>34771706
No

>>34772752
Name the cartridge you are thinking of.

>>34768464

I hope it is the SCAR. However FN has been fucking up on getting contracts lately. They need to step their game up instead of letting another one slip through.

>>34768700
You have no idea how logistics or the Army works

What if, an upsized AUG?

HK417

>>34769020
.22lr recoiless rifles

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>>34772953
>I hope it is the SCAR. However FN has been fucking up on getting contracts lately. They need to step their game up instead of letting another one slip through.

I suspect they'll suggest a Mk17, but also a FNAC-style Mk17 to lower cost for the army and increase their chances.

That said, I kinda doubt this procurement proposal will actually go anywhere.

Since FN-H has gotten the short end of the stick so often, it's possible they just decide not to compete with anything they don't already have. Meaning only the Mk17 will get entered.
Making new guns each time the US military asks for something gets expensive as fuck when each time the military backs out for political reasons.

>>34772393
Modern AR-10s have all the development benefits of the AR-15, I don't know of any issues

>>34773032

Brett Westcott who ran the program from 2006-2010 had this to say.

>This is a very STRONG disconnect between what most of the trigger pulling operators are saying and what makes it to the decision makers. There is a bold and obvious movement against the SCAR program at many levels inside key positions all the way up the chain of command. I am not going to give specific names or positions; I don’t think that is a good way of doing business, but I do know who they are and why they are doing it! I’m sure one day it will all come out.

It took the secretary of defense ordering the M16 to be implemented immediately and unchanged to overcome the army corruption 60 years ago.

Back then there wasn't a huge defense industry with multiple companies selling M14 clones, accessories and parts. The corruption is way worse and I doubt that anyone can clean it up now.

My mom works at Army.
She says the HK G28 has already won

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>>34773120

Jumping at every tender & trying to customize your offer for it can easily bankrupt a company in the long run.

The whole SCAR development was retarded from the start, with the US military barely meeting their stated promises to FN.

Frivolous bullshit like the development of the HAMR takes some serious R&D, and to then have the contract go to a rifle which didn't even try to meet the stated requirements is a huge slap in the face. FN-H could've just entered a beefed up SCAR instead of developing the HAMR to meet the automatic closed to open bolt requirement.

Then you have stuff like the P90 being cockblocked by German politicians to help save face for HK and ensure that the MP7 still had a shot at future contracts was insulting.

>>34769181
>unlined barrel
btfo

>>34768464
Well, there goes hundreds of millions of dollars down the drain for nothing.

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>>34773159

Not like it didn't bite the USMC in the ass when the M27's magwell was too tight for gen2 Pmags and nearly got all of them banned. But I suppose watering down the requirements so that FN wouldn't automatically win was fair... to everyone but FN.

Other than that I've seen a couple of unsubstantiated rumors about FN's entry.

1) FN felt the base SCAR on its own was good enough, but the HAMR was made to meet the original requirement for open bolt capability. The current M27 would have been disqualified.

2) FN's IAR grip broke off. Originally FN made it so standard AR grips could be used on the early SCARs.

However, this was a mistake as 1:1 polymer ≠ aluminum like the vast majority of AR lowers are.

This is the real reason why the grip tangs of later SCARs are thicker and why grips meant for the AR need to be modified to fit... or so the story goes.

https://pof-usa.com/revolution/

>>34768464
>implying it won't be an other HK gun

>>34773305

The government does have a huge hard on for wasting tons of money on HK guns that don't do anything better than Colt's original (Armalite) product.

>>34773313
HK surely must offer the best sports car to those generals

>>34769020
G11

they call it a spacegun for a reason

>>34773313
I've had first hand dealings with HK from the mid 1980s and they have a knack for worming their way into trials with a mediocre product and coming out top of the pile.

>>34768968
You act like a 12 lbs rifle is as accurate as a 7 lbs rifle from a unsupported position.

>>34768968
You act like a 12 lbs rifle is as accurate as a 7 lbs rifle from a unsupported position.

>>34773720
>gun that can't even deal with heat on earth
>take away convection so it heats up even faster and basically never cools
amazing

>>34768464
>army
>posts CCT
Jesus H. Christ

>>34768464
Wait is this suppose to be a DMR replacement or what? They trying to replace an entire squads worth of M4s with 7.62 rifles?

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>>34768646
awe, what about the "best battle rifle in the world"?

>>34773807
>DMR replacement or what?
No that's what the M110A1 is for. It will be considered a battle rifle, and it will be used like one, but it will not completely replace the M4. Soldiers will use one or the other based on mission requirements, some will carry an M4, others will carry the ICSR.

>>34769020
compressed air spearguns

traditional guns would overheat very quickly

>>34770089
This is the only serious contender

Why is it so hard to find a decent semi auto 7.62 detachable box magazine rifle? It's like since the m14 wasn't in service for very long the style just never caught on.

>>34769178
>Sir, we need to clear out the community building gym and the poll, sir!
>We've got hostiles in the supermarket deli and across the street at the anytime fitness!

Please be an AR-10 with a 20 inch barrel

>>34773826
kek

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>>34771511
Dumbass

Doesn't matter that much. Pick something affordable and good enough. It is an interim solution after all.
>Weapon in service 100 years later

>>34768464
This is a good thing

>>34774069
It's not??? There has been an AR10 renaissance in the US over the last 10 years. The really good ones just cost thousands of dollars.

POF revolution is IMO the best on the market right now.
>https://pof-usa.com/revolution/


DPMS Gen2 is the best budget option. It's a very good foundation for building your own HSLD rifle.
>http://dpms-gii.com/full.html#configurations

>>34769014
Oh man imagine the butthurt online, it would be legendary, obviously the m14 is outdated and outclassed by literally any other battle rifle but I've never understood why it triggers people so damn much

>>34774227
Agreed. While there are 5.56 loadings that can punch through most armor, the same concept can be applied to .308 for even greater results. I think the reliance on suppressive fire and air support is short sighted and won't be nearly as effective if we engage in a more symmetrical conflict. If troops aren't able to accurately put rounds on target and put down enemies the answer isn't more bullets, it's more training.

>7.62x51
Why do people presist with this no balls version of .30-06? If the military wanted something similar just get a fucking 7mm-08. Or more appropriately any good, modern 6.5-7mm intermediate with a case length between 45mm and 50mm.

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Oh for fuck sake we all know how this is going to end...

>army field tests a shit ton of weapons
>narrows it down to a few guns
>"lol budget" kicks in
>just ends up using a 7.62 AR platform in the end
>probably colt
>instead of being new they will just take existing/aging M16's or M4's and hodgepodge them to fire 7.62
>everyone ends up hating them but "THY MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX HATH SPOKETH!!!!!"

>>34774395

Also only SF and Rangers will get them off the bat, grunts wont see them for 15-20 years.

That's how the "hand-me-down system" works on a military scale.

>>34774395
The amount of modification to change an M4 to 308 would be more of a headache and more expensive than just buying a new rifle.

>>34774340
>tfw 7mm-08 will never replace old and busted 7.62
It's a bad feel

>>34774416

Are you underestimating the stupidity of the Brass?

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Why 7.72?

Why not .75?

>>34774416
Thesus' Ship type situation. We modified it aka we kept only the handguards sights and stock

>>34768464
rolling for G3

>>34769020
railgun or gyrojet sort of gun

>>34769043
fag

>>34771363
mass in space would be useful to the marine, because it would take more energy to make the marine fly off into space and that way they can use conventional firearms

>>34773803
SCAR fanboys really think they have another shot instead of it being an AR-10 type rifle.

>>34768833
7.62x51 did pretty good at killing in Rhodesia, Mozambique and Angola's forests and jungles, not to mention for Aussies and Brits in Vietnam, Malaysia and countless other shithole colonies where they utterly massacred the opposition with impressive KDR's

5.56 fags are so unbearable the moment they fear their snowflake caliber will become obsolete compared to one that is actually effective

>>34768464
>5.56x45mm M995 AP can already penetrate ESAPI and other similarly rated plates out to at least 100 meters
>plates that can stop the 5.56x45mm M995 AP are designed to stop full power rifle rounds with similar bullet construction like the 7.62x51mm M993 AP, requiring you to use ridiculously expensive tungsten carbide APDS rifle ammunition
>the US Army wants to solve the problem of soldiers being able to carry more 5.56x45mm ammunition by simply forcing soldiers to carry the same amount of 7.62x51mm ammunition despite the weight increase
This has to be one of the stupidest things the US Army has come up with for a while.

>>34774646
Here is your obligatory (you).

>>34774340
>no balls version
>is 100FPS faster than fuddy-ought-six
day/k/are

>>34768464
...and why do we care what the military uses again?

>>34774764
Try 2-300 in a good rifle if you actually can develop a decent load and aren't a mouthbreather.

>>34773826
the SCAR IS best battle rifle, but it is too expensive for the military, and would require re-training when the AR platform is already there.

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>>34773229
are you fucking retarded on purpose or do you seriouslybelieve SAN would submit a trial gun in a 40yr old configuration with absolutely no updates?

>>34775168
No its the HK417
>much easier to clean
>more durable parts
>german engineering
>translucent magazines
>much lighter recoil
>doesnt destroy optics
>no retraining

>>34775311
even their current issue SAN 751 has an unlined barrel. Its almost like its their tradition to not built barrels that are made for war.

>>34775388
its almost like they designed it like that because chrome lining has a negative effect on accuracy.
I cant find anything in the USArmy RFI that demands a lined barrel
>nitriding is better, easier, and more suited for the task anyway

>>34775364
i have a hard time arguing with that, but i guarantee the US mil will not even entertain an entry from HK because of cost.

>>34774131
Yeah no. Mass isn't mass without gravity you dumbfuck.

>>34775467
On the off case you aren't trolling, what you're probably thinking of is "weight". Weight != mass.

>>34775482
What the fuck do you think I mean? Yeah it's the same amount of protons, neutrons and electrons but on earth with the 9.81m/s^2 gravitational pull it would be impossible for a normal soldier to wear 2 inches of depleted uranium armor, in orbit not such much.
And what the fuck did you mean by your original post?
"Mass is mass even in space"
That implied somehow that extra mass was going to negatively impact performance Iike it would here on earth.

>>34772071
This.

You don't have to incapacitate someone, just their suit.

>>34775467
all mass has inertia, gravity or not. what do you think would happen if you tried to stop 600lbs of cargo from floating away in zero g? if you are also floating, that 600lbs becomes 600lbs+you of stuff floating away
with your feet strapped to a hull? it doesnt matter. that 600lbs becomes 600lbs+(you/2)

What will your face be like if they somehow manage to pick a bullpup as their ICSR, assuming we're ignoring the "collapsible buttstock" part?
Just how much internet angst will it generate?

>>34774652
Maybe they plan to use APFSDS 7.62 ammo. Steel rather than tungsten.

>>34775505
You're a very confused individual.
Equal mass = equal inertia. Not only could you not move with 2 inches of DU armor (not that you could with the bulk anyway), moving anything a significant proportion of your own weight is MORE difficult without the Earth anchoring you down.

>>34775467
>Yeah no. Mass isn't mass without gravity you dumbfuck.

I failed elementary physics class. The post!

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>>34775467
>>34771511
>>34770540
This is for you dumbfuck!

>>34775577
LOl No. Space suits weigh hundreds of pounds. No earths gravity means not having to constantly use energy to keep yourself from falling down. No atmosphere means no drag when having to move and pressure pressing against you at all times.
The only downside would be that it take more energy and be harder to slow down if you wanted to but it would also take less to make you move.

>>34774646
You can massacre natives with muskets, it's not that hard.

Also,
>5.56 a special snowflake caliber
I think we've reached peak delusion from the macho retard crowd.

Hate to break it to you, Juanito, but this isn't the Army replacing 5.56. They're only buying 50,000 of whatever wins, assuming the trials don't get cancelled like 90% of US Small Arms trials do. This is just there to supplement 5.56 in certain squads operating in certain areas.

>>34775773
You need to reread, AND STUDY Netwon's 2nd and 3rd laws specifically.

>>34774314
Because it's responsible for the US stomping on intermediate cartridge development in the 50s. The M14 and the mentality that produced it held small arms in the West back by 20 years.

>>34771957
It's actually AK-103s now, but yeah, no RFN.

>>34774331
t. man who doesn't know history and doesn't understand modern war

Although that's like 90% of /k/ so I shouldn't be surprised

>>34773313
This. The HK-416 is the Apple of guns. Same or worse performance for 3 times the price, and half the parts are fucking proprietary.

>>34773159
We should have nuked the Germans

Maybe the need to rework their fireteam composition to include an allied combatant that can engage at 500+ meters, couldn't the grenadier role be filled by giving the team leader a grenade launcher?

>>34768942
Nothing but our massive military budget, hegemony over NATO, and required standardization.

275 replies and not one post is about the most probable rifle to be selected: Valmet M82

>7.62mm
>Weapon length (is short/ Weight (not heavy) / Velocity (300m good and 600m still kills)
>Semi-Automatic and Fully Automatic function testing (goes bang 20 to 30 times)
>Noise (at shooter's ear eeeeeeeeeeeee) / Flash suppression (decent)
>20-30 round magazine to support a 210 round combat load (yes)
>Folding sights (Maybe M82 fails here)

>>34775773
>Space suits
Protip: space suits suck dick to move in. All interest in space suit tech is finding ways to make them smaller and lighter, not bolt extra shit on.
>drag and air pressure
These have nothing to do with the amount of weight/mass you can move around.

It's entertaining watching you come up with literal 5 year old-tier theories.

>>34775885

That's what my company did. Team and squad leaders had a 203 attached to their rifle.

>>34775895
>Not 7.62 NATO
>Foreign design and foreign made
>Bullpup
Pretty good reasons it wasn't mentioned

>>34768686

Welcome to the logic of US military procurement and German shitheeling.

France and Britain wanted .280 or some similar calibre due to totally different combat experiences and knowing 5.56 wouldn't allow them to drop the heavy ass support weapons.

Jump to today and the US is looking to adopt ANOTHER 7.62 rifle for some reason instead of just adopting .280 etc as the primary round and then keeping a DMR.

But we can have this conversation in 20 years again when NATO wonders why their new rifles now lack the capacity for effective city fighting when we invade Beijing or Delhi or Laos.

Almost as if it'd be better to just have listened to the actual infantry focused nations back in the 70s.

>>34773736
HK does not have enough resources to suck enough dicks to get the HK-416 approved. Even IF the Generals sign off on it Congress still has to approve it which will never happen given the insane price tag it has. Even the overpriced Colt M4's we buy are still one 3rd or less the price of HK's bullshit product.

>>34775895
what on earth could have possibly convinced you the m82 was even in the same ballpark of being considered to be trialed?

>>34775908
Yeah but it doesn't take a lot to move them now does it? And the reason they suck to move around in is because of the bulk not weight.
Are you retarded? If there's an atmosphere then there's some drag and then there's also pressure(do you know the definition of that word?) which means the atmosphere exerts a force down on you making it take more energy for your muscles to move you.

>>34775908
just stop, it's retarded. we've said all we could

>>34775922
>Not 7.62 NATO
Eh minor details
>Foreign design and foreign made
Italian guns were in service for decades and are now being replaced with another foreign design. I believe tooling to make M82 have been destroyed long time ago so just making it in US of A should not be biggie
>Bullpup
Bull puss are the way of the future!

>>34775961
I think a 6.5 would be better, with a 140 gain bullet weight with half of that being hardened steel and the other half hard cast lead with a steel jacket with a hardness of 80 brinell. Have it go 2650 fps from a 18 inch barrel.

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HUEHUEHUEHUE COME TO BRAZIL PLEASE

>>34775983
You're clinically retarded.

>>34775987
>a 140 gain bullet weight with half of that being hardened steel and the other half hard cast lead with a steel jacket with a hardness of 80 brinell.

Just fuck my barrel life why don't yah.

>>34775895
You're retarded.

>>34775983
I am quite convinced your biological mother is also your biological sister and your biological father is also your biological grandfather.

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>>34775966
just want you to know that you're barely a step above flat earthers. In fact, you're on the same level of stupid, just a different flight of stairs. And those stairs are in a different building, in the projects. In Florida. that's how stupid you are

>>34775966
I am quite convinced your biological mother is also your biological sister and your biological father is also your biological grandfather.

>>34775983
ignore
>>34776050
meant for
>>34775966

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does this mean that 7.62 will be as cheap as 5.56 when this happens?

>>34776027
The hardened steel wouldn't be touching the rifling and standard steel jackets are 120 brinell.
The reason for 80 is to have better accuracy but to also have less wee than standard steel jackets.

>>34775885
There is already one M249 per fire team and they have an effective range against point targets of 700 meters. Also, neither the M203 nor the M320 has an effective range of over 400 meters.

>>34776027
I also forgot to add that the projectile should also have a small air pocket at the tip. Also since it will be back heavy that will itself be enough to achieve tumbling.
So this would tumble easily in flesh and pierce hard body armory and barriers while also having a bc of a least .5 so it is also good for long distance.

>>34776177
I meant give the role of the grenadier to a team leader, now a fireteam could include someone like a designated marksman.

>>34768464

18" AR-10 in 6.5 creedmoor.

/thread

.308 is outdated, especially for combat. 6.5 is just as lethal to humans, but shoots farther, flatter, is lighter and kicks less.

>>34776145
Yeah but the Brinell of Copper jackets is only 35. Wears the barrel a lot slower.

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Why hasn't there been a new, viable intermediate cartridge like 50 fucking years?

>>34776301
There is plenty but they're mostly wildcats.

>>34776264
Pretty sure it's 40 but even so 80 isn't that much more.
120 is for regular steel jackets and that decreases barrel life by half so clearly it's not linear in its effect. Another thing my rifle would have both melonite treatment and chrome(or something else that's better) and it would have polygonal rifling. Actual polygonal rifling not what Glock has with a very distinct hexagonal shape). This would further increase barrel life but also increase accuracy and fps.

>>34776089
No, at thisbrate it's just the rising cost of brass and lead not being smelted anymore

>>34776301
>Why hasn't there been a new, viable intermediate cartridge like 50 fucking years?

Because ammo design has pretty much peaked and reached a plateau. It's probably not the best ammo tech is about as good as it's going to get.

>>34776324

I'm curious, how do they get the brinell of steel jackets down to just 80 when the brinell of regular mild steel (about as soft as you can get for steel) is 120?

>>34775963
The first batch of 416s that were adopted on a large scale was about 800$ with maintenance plans, and all the support and shit you get with mil contractacts, theyre not that expensive

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>>34775467
>These fucking people exist

>>34770861
kys my m14 is great. sour grapes

>>34776301
Because the constant reality of how battles are fought combined with what is technologically feasible leads to a small range of options that are objectively the best, and once you have settled on one of those options it will take a significant change in how battles are fought or what is technologically feasible to justify the costs of changing to a different option. You also have to consider how little of an effect on overall squad performance a small change in what cartridge is issued would likely have vs other things that money could be spent on improving instead. The LSAT program seems to be the first recent attempt that may actually produce a new viable intermediate cartridge for military use.

>>34776409
Probably an alloy. Maybe steel and zinc or steel and copper or whatever metallurgists come up with.

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>military tests new rounds & guns
>Spends millions
>determines a 7.62 round is only slightly better than 5.56
>says it would be too expensive to change over
>Modifies current rifles instead

Rinse and repeat for the next 50 years.

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Now is your chance for redemption America, don't waste it.

>>34776688
fuck off

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>>34776698

>>34776548
>additional money, time, R&D dedicated to a cartridge that isn't caseless, is more complicated to manufacture, and doesn't even exist yet
USMIL wouldnt give the sales pitch 30 seconds

here's an idea, most of whatever you said, except projectile dia is 1.5mm too narrow and steel jacket is a regular hardness.
For finishing, projectile is wrapped/dipped in copper until its too thick, then swaged down til its balanced right and matches spec.
but wait, thats how bullets are already made. turns out you go the rifling in place, and subsonic 5.56 is jacketed 22lr

>>34776725
pls stop. Unfucked FALs are bad enough.

>>34776754
Yeah
It would cost millions to figure out an alloy with an 80 brinell hardness.
That is fucking retarded. I bet such an alloy already exists and i bet it's a steel and copper alloy. This wouldn't cost anymore money than if the us waned to switch to a different cartridge like 7mm magnum for whatever reason. It's no different and complex than what we already use.

>>34775842
How am I wrong. If current techniques rely on air strikes or artillery coupled with suppression, won't a conventional war where our plans are being engaged by enemy planes and our artillery is being taken out potentially leave the soldiers on the ground on their own? If they're on their own with underpowered weapons geared towards suppression against an enemy with more powerful weapons, they'll be at a disadvantage, right? I know 5.56 can penetrate armor, but it doesn't have stellar terminal ballistics after having passed through a rifle plate. If I'm wrong I'd appreciate if someone could tell me why.

>>34776957
so to sum up your idea
>polygonal rifled, melonited barrel
ok I like it, should also make it a progressive twist for maximum cool
>with chrome
what? like chrome chamber?
>6.5mm projectile
no arguments here
>overly hard jacket made of some as-of-yet-unnamed soft steel alloy
you are literally suggesting shoving a hard round peg with a higher coefficient of friction through a square hole at supersonic speeds. this will murder barrel life like a .260 in a regular not special barrel

youre almost headed in the right direction, but seriously, why the steel/alloy jacket? why not oiled phosphor bronze ffs

>>34777251
No, the barrel is both melonite treated and chrome lined(if possible) or use a different process for chrome or melonite that's even better.
Polygonal rifle has exceptionally better life than regular rifling and regular rifling already stands up to normal steel jackets that are HARDER than what I'm proposing. Also if the jacket makes it more accurate and a soldier uses less rounds than the effective statisticial barrel life is the same. I mean it won't be since it won't be twice as accurate but 30 percent isn't out of reach.

>>34777355
>No, the barrel is both melonite treated and chrome lined(if possible)
zero point. afaik, chrome lining won't stick to a melonited surface.
> or use a different process for chrome or melonite that's even better.
I'd have to find the document again of Nitriding process comparisons between against salt bath, Ion/plasma, and gas, but I think Ion/plasma nitriding would be the best.
>regular rifling already stands up to normal steel jackets that are HARDER than what I'm proposing
sauce. But if you post a fucking artillery barrel I'm writing you off

>Also if the jacket makes it more accurate and a soldier uses less rounds than the effective statisticial barrel life is the same. I mean it won't be since it won't be twice as accurate but 30 percent isn't out of reach.

I don't even know where to begin with that statement, except to say that it doesnt answer my question
> why not oiled phosphor bronze

>>34776301
The Brits got one. The USA wanted 7.62.

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>>34769020
Moonraker is best gun

>>34776301
Because 5.56, 5.45 and 5.8mm exist.

>>34776688
Bought a FAL as soon as a got back from afghanistan after 2 different occasions of hitting some shitskin center mass with 5.56 only to maintain their full sprint. We found one about a kilometer away and the other one dead in his home.

>>34777925
Let me guess, you were using M855?

>>34776301
6.5 creedmoor
its a .308 with a 6.5 necked onto it

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Just get an AR-10 and be done with it.