Why are planes riveted instead of welded or glued? Vibrations?

Inadequate aluminum welding technology at the time, today a lot of them (most?) are welded

Welds are too heavy, they are glued now that carbon fiber has become more prominent

Aluminium alloys are tricky to weld correctly.

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>>34685793
>>34685798
> today a lot of them (most?) are welded
> they are glued now
Holy fuck you fags are dumb.
Rivets are strong, light, smooth, and allow for easy repair. They are still used, and used extensively.

Yes, sometimes glue is used for composite wings and propellers. Sometime steel parts are welded. But the lion's share fasteners on any aircraft are rivets.

>>34685870
Another know nothing tripfag.
I worked at NASA building equipment to inspect epoxy for carbon fiber bonding.
CF is the future of airplane structures, try to rivet that.

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>>34685912
How does one check for damage or stress on carbon fiber? Oh wait...that's right.

>>34685959
Ultrasound, infrared thermography, X ray, fiber optic stress sensors, acoustic stress sensors, SAW stress sensors.

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>>34685959
You fucking dipshit

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>His aircraft is made of aluminum
laughingsideburnsman.jpg

>>34685870
Aircraft rivets are a thing for a reason.
I'm holding an EA Selzer one right now.

>>34685912
You're the know-nothing. Try reading the post again, moron.
>Yes, sometimes glue is used for composite wings and propellers.

How can you be an inspector of anything if you can't even inspect the words you're responding to?

Tsk.

American planes break 1/3 out of every flight because they are shit

t. F-16 worker

>>34686018
>Aircraft rivets
*Aircraft riveters
stupid slepl checker

>>34686028
Very well. enjoy your shitposting

>>34686029
0.01₽ has been deposited into your account

>>34686028
The 787's entire fuselage is composite.

>>34686032
>*Aircraft riveters

You're holding an aircraft riveter? Is she cute?

>>34686055
>Is she cute?
Get. Out. More.

>>34685855
Maybe with oxy/acetylene, but with tig, it's breeze

I'm not to knowledgeable about newer aircraft but older aluminium ones from ww2 were riveted due to it being easy for a mostly unskilled workforce to do and like >>34685793 said the welding wasn't really there yet, at the time the only way to weld aluminium was a method called heliarc which is a precursor of modern tig welding that used helium as the shield gas in place of argon.

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>>34686048
Most of it, yeah. Here's a pic of the inside of a 78's fuselage. O look. Rivets.

we done here? yeah, we done here.

>>34685725
>gluing heavy metal
Anon, I....

>ITT: no welders
shit's too thin to weld.
also
>glue

>>34686503
Hi-loks are not rivets.

Anon: 1
Trip: 0

Aluminum forms cracks after repeated cyclic stress loading. Rivets are used over welding so that when an aluminum panel starts to crack, the crack stops at the edge of the panel. If it was welded, the crack would continue into the next panel and so on until the structure failed completely.

>>34686110
H E A T . T R E A T M E N T

>>34686016
what the hell is that and why does it look so cool?

>>34685725
the heat from welding weakens up some common aircraft aluminum alloys that are precipitation hardened

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>>34686552
Ooo, crap. You got me there. Yes, those are Hi-loks, not rivets.

Still, here's a vid of riveting on the 787.
So like, hey, there's still rivets!

https://youtu.be/SJZk9vNS8NE?t=82

You guys are all dinks

makes it easier to fix things under the skin. since you can drill out the rivets.

>>34686553
This. It's a form of compartmentalization.

I spent holidays helping my old man rebuild old fighters and bombers for rich collectors.

The ability to replace parts ruined by stress with minimum tooling is important. 99% of Dad's tools fitted in one canvas bag. Only the folder/ guillotine and rivet drawers were on site.

Also - fuck the use of imperial measurements in Australian and Yank aerospace industry. Just fuck it.

>>34685725
Under the extreme temperature differences in flying through different elevations, a weld tends to be more brittle and less thermally reactive than unwelded aluminum.

Second part about rivets is that in an aluminum skin, it works as a bond path for any currents and static charges across the airframe. Most military planes are going to composite skins and panels which bond through titanium flush mounted fasteners by mating the fibers inside the composite, or a bonding substrate within the panel itself, to the airframe by way of a conductive finish.

>>34686101
>Get. Out. More.
So what, is she not cute or what...?

>>34685959
Knock on it with quarter

>>34687134
probably too young/public educated to get a Rosie reference

>>34685793
I build airplanes. Rivets and rivet type fasteners are used extensively, the vast majority of the plane is riveted

>>34685912
and I work in Naval Aviation and every plane I have flown on or worked on still had a shit ton of Rivets.

When you only have extremely small numbers of air frames/assets to worry about then you can afford all the special testing time and effort to put into those small numbers of air frames for Carbon Fiber materials, especially when the sortie rate is maybe once or twice per year vs once or twice per day.

>>34687139
The only true answer to NDI testing.

>>34686503
>>34686552
Those are huck bolts on the shear ties and lowboys. They're swaged collars on a titanium bolt with a designated break off pin to torque properly.

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>>34687045
>>34686553
>>34686628
The more you know.

>>34686665
That's a track driller using a quackenbush to drill and team holes for one of the joins. Those are all mounted with huck bolts through titanium and CFRP doublers.

Mostly because welds make the thing too rigid, planes need flexibility.

t. welder

>>34686529
Git gud

>>34686529
I've seen a TIG guy cut a soda can in half and weld it back together just to prove me wrong when I said something like that.

>>34685912
ITT NASA dweeb has no fucking clue who he's talking to.

Nice pocket protector...

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>>34686602
that's a pretty standard looking canard with a pusher prop

>>34687303
Get back to work legacy fag

>>34686602
It's a berkut 360. It's made out of carbon fiber, has the wings on back to front, can pull 12Gs, fly over 1500 miles, and hit 300 knots. It's a modified Burt Rutan design.

>>34685870
>Rivets are strong, light

No, alumnium is strong and light.

The only reason we use rivets is because welding thin sheets of aluminum is impractical both in terms of manufacturing and routine maintenance for an entire aircraft- just like how welding an entire ship was impractical in the early 1900s.

If expense and practicality weren't a factor (and it's becoming less of a factor as technology improves), we'd try to come as close to making an aircraft out of one single piece of material as possible (at least for any remotely high performance application)- just like how race cars have been monocoque design since the early '60s, and modern race aircraft are all made out of CF.

>>34687880
>fuel panel wire burns off it's insulation and starts a fire
>firedrill used to put it out or plane pops like an overpressurized tank and sends shrapnel everywhere
>Now the entire fuselage has to be replaced, essentially as if you're building a brand new plane

Single peice hulls are a retarded idea.

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>>34687759
> It's a modified Burt Rutan design.

and it's obvious on sight too, but that design existed before burt rutan so i have posted xp-50

also japs in the ww2 tried it too, pic related

>>34688197
*xp-55

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>>34688148


>Now the entire fuselage has to be replaced, essentially as if you're building a brand new plane

No you don't you fucking dummy. You think when an F1 car crashes they just throw the whole thing out and make a new one from scratch?

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*unzips dick*

>>34685725
>20 rivets take about 2 minutes
>a foot long weld on 3/8 sheet metal takes 20 minutes
Gee, I wonder why?

>>34688396
Not that other anon, but he has a little bit of a point for full aluminum skin aircraft. If damage or heat warping occurs on the skin of the aircraft, they need to remove all damaged portions. On a normal aircraft they just replace panels of aluminum and match fit them to the aircraft they are working on. With a solid fuselage made of aluminum, they wouldn't be able to make seamless repairs which matters for fuel efficiency and airframe performance. CFRP you just sand through layers and perform a scarf repair by laying new composite down and curing it in place, which is how your F1 is repaired.

No matter how old the concept of a pusher prop configuration is, every aircraft with such config looks futuristic as fuck.

>>34688499
>With a solid fuselage made of aluminum, they wouldn't be able to make seamless repairs which matters for fuel efficiency and airframe performance.

Yes, definitely.

The original point I was making is that riveting isn't lighter than welding, it's just the best way of putting aluminum together, which is the best material for making aircraft in most applications. The biggest reason we use rivets is because welding aluminum is highly technical, and increases the cost of maintenance down the road. It's just too hard and adds way too much bullshit to make it worth doing.

If we reach a point where aluminum isn't the best material for making aircraft anymore (or we make advances in welding), and design shifts towards monocoque components out of composite, then riveting is obviously going to have a greatly diminished role in aircraft maintenance and manufacture.

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I don't have a goddamn clue how they build aeroplanes but I am a welder and I can give you 3 reasons why plane builders may prefer rivets over welding for the skin of an aircraft.

1: Material Thickness
Thinner stuff is harder to weld, because its thin and melts easily. Thin material is also weaker which means once your material goes below a certain thickness, the strength you'd get from welding it is made redundant because a rivet will hold it together past the materials failure point anyway.

2: Material composition.
As a general rule, you can only really weld ferrous (iron based) materials and a few other pure metals, such as aluminum and copper. If the skin of your plane is made from some wacky super-alloy then it may simply be too difficult or even outright impossible to weld.

3: Heat damage
This is the factor that I personally consider most likely to be responsible of the three. In order to weld a material, you have to heat it up enough to melt it so that the two plates can be fused together. This process creates something called the 'heat affected zone' in the plate which starts at the weld bead and extends out into the metal, going further the more heat you apply. The metal within the heat affected zone will be tempered differently to the rest of the plate and often creates a weakness. Aluminum in particular is prone to this, which is why most large or structural fabrication projects involving aluminum takes pains to avoid heating the metal (mechanical instead of laser cutting, rivets instead of welds, etc). The weaknesses created by welding can often (but not always) be removed by tempering the entire job evenly but there are likely time and cost prohibitions that prevent each F-35 from being baked in a giant, 1000 degree oven for a few hours during the manufacturing process.