MP7,P90 and the meme barrelled rifles.

>>34657954
probably because the US army already has a fuckload of 5.56 and magazines. supply chain logistics, nigga

>>34657954
>All 5.56x45 is M855
>5.56x45 doesn't shred IIIA vests even out if a 7.5" barrel
>what is OTM that doesn't rely on fragmentation (and in turn a velocity threshold) for terminal ballistics effectiveness
>commonality of parts
>commonality of ammunition
>supply chain

Etc.

Tbh kill you'reself

>>34657954
If I could, I would carry an MP7.

>>34658008
>5.56x45 doesn't shred IIIA vests even out if a 7.5" barrel
citation bloody needed, and i don't think 5.56 would be doing anything out of that 700m/s velocity at 9 inch barrels kek

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>>34657954
>So why in god's cock has SOCOM fell for the SBR meme?
But they haven't?

>>34658048
Fuck off, Britbitch.

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Reminder that the MP9 in 6.5 CBJ has greater effectiveness than the MP7, in a smaller package, with only a different barrel to convert it from 9mm. Also OP is a fucking retard
>suppress better
Oh wtf I love .22 LR energy levels now
>higher capacity
Because you need that capacity when it takes ten+ rounds to stop someone.

>>34658048
>SS190 comes out the muzzle at 2350fps from a P90
>55gr .223 pressure spec comes out an 8" barrel at 2380 at the muzzle

>>>hurr durr even shitty as box of UMC .223 FMJ won't pierce a IIIA vest but SS190 will because the tip is black

Literally go away

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MP7 appreciation thread?

>velocity and energy are the same thing

>>34658008
> OTM that doesn't rely on fragmentation (and in turn a velocity threshold) for terminal ballistics effectiveness

Wut? First I've heard of MK262 not requiring a velocity threshold for early tumbling. Not relaying on tumbling was the entire reason for the big push for SOST and M855A1.

>>34658367
>A 55gr bullet at equal velocity to a 31gr bullet now has less energy than the 31gr bullet

Imagine my surprise at this level of idiocy

>>34658380
>>34658380
SOST and Mk262 perform excellent as far as 5.56 is concerned out of short barrels

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GXFKI5LgaNg

"Velocity threshold" in the same way M855 or M193 do if my first statement was too broad for you

>>34658452
That velocity threshold still exists, from everything I've heard from the P&S mod casts with the SOCOM guys, just lower. Most of them were not impressed with MK262s terminal ballistics, at least compared to the SOST and M855A1.

Granted, not sure how many of them were trying to plug someone from out past 300m with the stuff.

M855A1

/thread

>>34658000
fpb post, and trips, AND no replies anons are feeling jelly tonight.

Honestly considering active shooters and ISIS wearing vests wouldn't it be better to have 5.7 instead of the other meme PDW caliber 300 blk? More ammo in the mag, more compact, armor penetration etc? 300 blk is basically just hot .45
.

>>34658189

that's blood on their knees.

>>34661114
France experienced this throughout 2015. Despite 5.56 having good amour penetration, GIGN operators noted that its effects post-penetration were greatly diminished.
They looked at going to 7.62x51 SBRs, but the excessive recoil & muzzle flash made multiple follow-up shots too difficult. Instead, they're adopting 7.62x39 carbines.
The Russians realized this during the 90's, it's why their counter-terrorism units favor 7.62x39 and 9x39 carbines over 5.45x39.
9x39 is an especially good cartridge for this purpose, as it was designed to be a sub-sonic armor-penetrating round.

>>34657954
>So why in god's cock has SOCOM fell for the SBR meme?
>PS90 and MP7 both SBR

>>34661114
5.7 isn't as widely accepted as it should be because of HK lobby. It is so strong that they've got NATO to sink PDW program because their MP7 was getting smashed in competition with P90, so now armies do it sort of on their own where it's easier to hide corruption(and adopt MP7).

>>34657954
You'll never even see either in person let alone use them so why are you acting so superior and wise

>>34661623
they're not rifles you retarded fuck.

>>34658587
and you're a bigger retarded fuck

>>34661624
>5.7 isn't as widely accepted as it should be because of HK lobby. It is so strong that they've got NATO to sink PDW program because their MP7 was getting smashed in competition with P90
1.do you have a source for this? i'd like to shitpost with this against HKfags
2.how did the MP7 get rekt against the P90?

>>34661755
>1.do you have a source for this? i'd like to shitpost with this against HKfags

However, the German delegation and others rejected the NATO recommendation that 5.7×28mm be standardized, halting the standardization process indefinitely.[10][16]

10:
> Oliver, David (2007). "In the Line of Fire". Global Defence Review. Archived from the original on October 16, 2006. Retrieved October 19, 2009.

16:
> Gourley, S.; Kemp, I (November 26, 2003). "The Duellists". Jane's Defence Weekly (ISSN 0265-3818), Volume 40 Issue 21, pp 26–28.

>>34661755
>do you have a source for this? i'd like to shitpost with this against HKfags

Check out the NATO trails for 5.7 vs 4.6, HK got absolutely BTFO in every category.
NATO even sent their test results over to an independent panel to make sure they weren't being biased, and they too found that 5.7x28 was "undoubtedly superior" to 4.6x30

When 5.7x28mm was recommended to be adopted, the German delegation (and others that buy lots of HK equipment) threw a tantrum and halted the standardization process.

Remember the "P90 mags are unreliable when they're loaded halfway, causing malfunctions" rumors? It was part of HK's FUD campaign again FN.
HK are fucking scumbags and the German military is their bitch.

Where is marisa kirisame with those wound vectors

>>34661778
>>34661795
not that guy but how is the P90 better than the MP7?

>>34661611
G R E N D E L
R
E
N
D
E
L

>>34657954
You do realize the 62 grain and 77 grain ammunition the military is using nowadays is heavier than the PDW projectiles at what you call similar velocities?

Meanwhile the CAR15 shits all over then while being a third of the price.

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>>34661886
How well would 5.56 penetrate armor out of a Colt Commando? Would there be enough energy left over to do any significant damage, should it penetrate?

>>34661886
>an M16A1 that somebody cut it's barrel to 9 inch
>somehow shits all over a smaller, simmer, shorter, lighter gun that holds more rounds in the mag and it's cartridge is designed to penetrate armor

>ignores that 5.56 sucks with shorter barrels because it's velocity gets decreased to 800-700m/s which is already PDW cartridge tier

>>34661914
It's funny because none of those things are true and no one uses terrible PDWs for a reason.

>>34661914
You honestly think that the bullet only accelerates 100fps per inch of barrel travel? How do snub nose revolvers with even heavier projectiles manage to get to 900 feet per second with 2 inch barrels?

>>34661927
compare the height,length, weight and magazine capacity of an MP7, a P90 and a MK18, they're all on wikipedia

now google "5.56 velocity SBR" and compare that shit to 4.6x30's velocity or 5.7x28's

you're a faggot not because you don't know these, but because you refuse to google basic shit.

>>34661854
>not that guy but how is the P90 better than the MP7?

TLDR: much better logistics, marginally better wounds.

>Among other points, the NATO group cited superior effectiveness (27 percent greater) for the 5.7×28mm against unprotected targets and equal effectiveness against protected targets.[11] It also cited less sensitivity to extreme temperatures for the 5.7×28mm, and cited a greater potential risk of barrel erosion with the 4.6×30mm.[11] In addition, the group pointed out that 5.7×28mm is close to the 5.56×45mm NATO by its design and manufacture process, allowing it to be manufactured on existing production lines.[11] The group also noted that 5.7×28mm firearms had existed for a longer period of time than 4.6×30mm firearms, and that the 5.7×28mm FN Five-seven pistol was already in production at that time, while the 4.6×30mm Heckler & Koch UCP pistol was a new concept.[11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_5.7%C3%9728mm#History

I feel like "Better Logistics" is the answer to 99% of cases where it's not obvious why a gun was adopted.

Also interesting to see the temperature sensitivity which I hadn't considered at all but I guess is super relevant if you want the bullet used by cold-weather Scandinavian NATO allies and also by operators operating operationally in the hot mid-east and Levant.

>>34661937
>You honestly think that the bullet only accelerates 100fps per inch of barrel travel? How do snub nose revolvers with even heavier projectiles manage to get to 900 feet per second with 2 inch barrels?

Using pistol powders which burn faster.

>>34661977
Hmm, do i want a gun with a cartridge that's 27% more effective, or do i want a more aesthetic gun?

solution: make an MP7 in 5.7x28

>>34661114
>armor penetration etc?
Vests can be penetrated with any caliber with proper bullet design.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zapDoI_q3JM

>>34661937
http://rifleshooter.com/2015/12/223-remington-5-56mm-nato-barrel-length-and-velocity-26-inches-to-6-inches/

>5.56 M885 10 inch barrel
>2400 ft/s velocity

>5.7x28mm
>2800 ft/s

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>>34661914
>cartridge is designed to penetrate armor
what is with this? AP 5.56 exists. 5.7 will never be able to beat it. Ever.

>>34662014
everybody uses M885A1, not that AP round

whereas every LE/MIL that uses 5.7 always uses SS109AP ammo

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>>34661993
>>5.7x28mm
>>2800 ft/s
Pls. It is 2400 ft/s with 30 grains bullets. twice less energy.

5.7x28 doesn't work well with 60 grains bullets, especially in P90. Some people loaded them for about 1000-1100 ft/s from Five Seven pistol.
http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4907

Elite Ammunition even sold such ammo before ATF came for their dog and Barnes 0.223 banded solids.

>>34662032
> SS109AP ammo
What armor does this ammo penetrates again?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpIUKMXugUU

[spoiler]It is SS190 not SS109[/spoiler]

>>34658189
>doggo face not blacked out
0/10

>>34657954
There are many first hand accounts of people having to literally mag dump into people to drop them with the MP7. Not all fighting distances are like call of booty, dipshit.

>>34662063
>What armor does this ammo penetrates again?

Russian light paratrooper armor.

You know, like it was designed for.

>>34662063
>What armor does this ammo penetrates again?
>>34662080
>Russian light paratrooper armor.

>5.7x28mm
>In the 1980s, lightweight personal body armor was becoming more prevalent among Soviet units. While these flak jackets were easily penetrated by rifle fire, they were able to defeat 9x19mm ball rounds. So there was growing concern over NATO’s 9x19mm weapons being rendered obsolete. Fabrique Nationale recognized this threat and began working on a solution in the 1980s, an effort that picked up steam when NATO established the CRISAT target--a 1.6mm titanium plate and 20 Kevlar folds--as a penetration standard. FN responded with a small-caliber, high-velocity cartridge called the 5.7x28mm.

It penetrates CRISAT

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>>34662080
>Russian light paratrooper armor.
No such thing. You are thinking about 6B2 general issue vest that was basis for NATO CRISAT standard. But here is the problem. Literally nobody uses 6B2 vests in the 2017.

>>34662048
>Pls. It is 2400 ft/s with 30 grains bullets. twice less energy.
So? M885 556 at 9 inch is also 2400 ft/s
My point still stands

>>34662112
M855 is 62 grains.

>>34661986
With reliable casket mags! Fund this now!

>>34662132
oh my god literally who gives a fucking fuck they have the same velocity

>>34662144
The future is now.

>>34662147
Not him but still twice the kinetic energy you absolute waste of space

>>34662147
So does a standard 7.62x39. But golly the only thing that matters is velocity rite.

>>34661114
Ya know even before better bullet design comes into play, one of the major advantages of .300blk was hot swapping between heavy subs and 180-110gr supers. Now go read about sectional density

>>34662158
different anon here
energy means how hard hitting the round is, right?

woudn't too much energy cause over-penetration?

>>34657954
>Hurr only velocity matters in ballistics

5.56 has more weight and thus more energy, and have been proven to have decent wounding capabilities even after armor penetration. On top of that short barreled ARs means commonality of parts, simpler logistics, easier training, ect.

As cool as guns like the MP7 are they are pretty much meme material outside of a few very specific applications.

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>mp7 meme

Just ask this french special forces Capitan how good those PDW are.

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there's no real reason for smg's or pdw's anymore. if you're not going to use a short rifle, you might as well use a machine pistol.

such as the b&t USW, which is basically a steel frame pistol with a stock, select fire, optic, and little cavity that the slide goes into, or the b&t MP9, which is really just a large pistol with a small foregrip, no slide, and a folding stock.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26fIRAAtaPE

>>34662997
my friend of african descent!

Bullets can be too small. An understandably rare meme after the tornado of .45 fags claiming everything is too small, but without fragmentation, a round needs to be around .380 to do sufficient expansion-only damage.

Hence the death of the P90 and MP7 - they're meme guns that take a full mag to do what 5.56 can do in 2 shots or 9mm JHP can in a long burst. Meet some cool guys who used the MP7 circa the early 10s, or trawl around for AARs on professionallsoldiers/m4c/lightfighter before it shit the bed: with the MP7, "lack of stopping power" isn't a joke, it's a genuine factor.

B&T revived the old TMP, put a spin on it as using 9mm for logistical compatibility, and have taken a number of small contracts as a result.

>>34663044

granted they aren't as deadly as a intermediate or battle sized cartridge, but, the only capacity that they're useful in anyways is A. unexpected defense scenarios where the ability to hit people really quickly and accurately will give them something very fucked up to think about - they're still going to die without medical attention and they're still going to fuck off - or B. situations where you are going to a location to do one specific thing to a small area such as a vehicle or building where you are primed and hyped to deliver rapid critical shots as part of a team with overwhelming surprise and speed.

they'll never be useful as regular combat weapons, but in the case of quickly injuring someone you didn't expect to show up so you can get away, or in the case of basically high-speed murder, they are useful.

>>34662997
what an extremely retarded opinion

the MP7 and the P90 are special because of their cartridges.

5.7x28 and 4.6x30 would BTFO 9x19 and .45

>>34663153

yeah, special as in 'short bus' special.

the 5.7x28 and 4.6x30 HAVE had a chance to perform. they have been used by thousands of military and security personel around the world in a variety of situations, and the conclusion and results have been clear: they are INSUFFICIENT for killing people, or even stopping them from killing you. they are INEFFECTIVE in combat situations.

your theoretical armchair 'woulds' and 'coulds' about what would and would not btfo this and that don't fucking matter, which is why people whose lives depend on their guns no longer use the mp7 or p90. because they are not effective as weapons in the real world.

>>34658189
>But they haven't?
this. socom even recommended the mp7 as a service wide replacement for the m9 in the mhs trials.

>>34657954
>5.7x28
A complete failure. Round is larger than existing 9mm and the SMG they built for it is the same weight as most carbines. Requires additional manufacturing processes such as adding lubricity to the cases.
>4.6x30
Nice round. The most quiet center fire round available. You can have a guy doing a mag dump in the next room of the shoothouse and hear literally nothing. The MP7 is light and is actually useable as a pistol. The controls mimic the AR-15 and the gas operation is basically a baby G36. H&K got fucked over by the Five-seven shitty pistol because the plebs didn't realize the MP7 was good enough for both roles. HK figured it out that's why they dropped pistol development.

Both are shit for lethality just like 9mm.

>>34663181
>they are INSUFFICIENT for killing people, or even stopping them from killing you. they are INEFFECTIVE in combat situations.
First of all, i'm gonna need a citation to what you're saying
Second, saying it's "INSUFFICIENT AND INEFFECTIVE", for killing people? bitch please how do you quantify "insufficiency"? you're the one who seems like an armchair operator with all his "STOPPIN POWAH"-esque terms and words
Third,
>fuckers fly at 800m/s speed, literally 2.5 speed of 9mm
>and ability to penetrate armor
>4.6x30 has the noise level of 110db when suppressed with supersonic ammunition
pull your head out of your ass we're not talking about rifle rounds here, these are literally pistol rounds so don't expect them to perform better than a rifle
Fourth,
OP's argument is that these cartridges -almost- have as much performance as 556 in terms of ballistics and whatnot, All while being served in smaller, lighter guns that have more magazine capacity which is a better deal, OP is not saying that "GUYS RIFLE ROUNDS SUX PUT THE P90 AS STANDARD ISSUE FOR ALL BRANCHES"
You'd know this if you've read the OP but no as soon as you hear somebody's shitting on your precious SBRs you dive with your legs and arms into it.

>>34663286
HOW does thou quantify "lethality"?
this is worst than "stopping powah"

>>34663345
>HOW does thou quantify "lethality"?
I don't, the US Army's Ballistic Research SCHV program did. .223 was their standard as is mine.

>>34663359
>US Army's Ballistic Research SCHV program
cite it because i can't find anything containing "SCHV" or anything about 5.7x28 or 4.6x30

>>34663359
>>34663286
how many lethalities does .45 have? kek

>fn will never make a 556 p90

>>34658263
do you have more info about 6.5 CBJ and the MP9 chambered in it?

>>34662877
Against armor you want more penetration. Additionally the military does not care about overpenetration, not at all, so more penetration is simply more effective

>>34663393
>>34663419
wew lad. I see you're just trolling now.

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>>34663445
This isn't an argument, if you reference something you should cite it, i'm not that guy (despite that his joke seems to have hit you hard)

>>34663498
i did cite it actually. I just have zero interest in holding someone's hand when they aren't aware of a program that's directly responsible for one of the largest shifts in doctrine and worldwide weapon adoptions ever. they don't belong here. period.

>>34663582
googled "US Army's Ballistic Research SCHV program" closest thing i found in google was a british website about guns, nothing concerning 5.7 or 4.6 or how "shit" they are

cite a link or fuck off

>>34663611
>being this fucking mad
>didn't even read >>34663359 or >>34663345
wew lad.

>>34657954
Because they're shit.

”When employing the MP7 up close, you literally use it like a fire hose and sprinkle 4.6 all over the torso of the guy you want to reduce (usually on Auto, which is a CQB no-go anyway), and you have to keep hosing him down with bullets until his brain figures out that you are filling him in. Usually this takes longer than shooting a NSR with a rifle, so by the time that your brain figures out that the guy has quit and is crumpling, you are almost out of bullets and any other threats in the room have most likely started to engage you. IF your team is on their **** and everyone grasps the true importance of primary/secondary sectors of fire, then perhaps you can get in there and all of your guys can sprinkle 4.6 liberally on all of the bad guys in an efficient manner, but if you fail to do that, then bad things will happen quickly.”

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4338-Small-Caliber-PDW-s-FN-5-7-mm-HK-4-6-mm

>>34663611
>closest thing i found in google was a british website about guns
also being a lying troll. 1st link is a 72 page pdf about the program. kek lurk more summerfriend. :D

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>>34663665
none of these links have anything regarding the MP7 or the P90's cartridges

>>34663345
>>34663326

"I cant define it, but i know it when i see it."

Im gonna go with the actual field experience over numbers. Numbers dont mean shit. Fact is people who have actually shot people with little meme zingers dont want to use them because they dont have the desired effect.

And numbers and calculations mean jack shit in light of this fact.

>>34663688

Well thats becuase you are on the moon rune google you crazy arab.

The assumption is that you are googling in the us.

>>34657954
>MP7 has a 40 round mag, whereas the MK18 has a 30 round mag

20 rounds. The 40rd magazine for the MP7 is the huge extendo one, so if we're counting those the MK18 can fit 100rd Surefire mags too.

>>34663702
...what's stopping you from just copying and pasting the link here?

>>34663715
Im not him, but yeah, i will help you.

On 2nd thought, he might be full of shit. I did get PDF's, but a bunch of unrelated shit.

>>34663656
>"hey this is a nice article actually"
>read until the end
>he's subtly shilling for SBRs
i'm mad now

>>34663688
Alert! ISIS spotted!

>>34663729
it doesn't exist, the guy is a stopping-power fanboy with no source

>>34663656
Wow, just posted this after reading the OP and not the rest of this thread.

Bunch of fucking moronic summerfags shilling for PDWs in here.

>PDWs have more ammo
PDWs are chambered in a shit cartridge. Why the fuck would i want 40rnds of .22 WMR when i can have 30rnds 5.56. 5.56 is already marginal enough as it is.

>muh-muh armor pen
SBRs in 5.56 have better armor penetrating ability than PDWs. The rounds have similar cross sections and velocities to PDW cartridges but SIGNIFICANTLY more energy. Penetrating cores are totes a thing for them as well.

>buh-buh muh velocity
Have you seriously not graduated highschool or something? read a fucking book or better yet do the world a favor and go null yourself. Oh wait, you'd have to actually read books to get that reference, my bad.

>it's quieter though
Nobody fucking cares you mong. less decibels isn't worth getting shot over and people are actively trying to solve this problem by improving suppressors and hearing protection.

>>34663802

you realize that there are elements of shooting people dead (and everything else) that are not quantifiable, right?

the only way to actually know the difference between shooting someone with .45 and shooting someone with 5.7 is to actually do it several times.

and experience shows, consistently, that the little meme zinger cartridges just don't work well for shooting people dead.

and btw, i don't think anyones ever had their armor penetrated by the little meme zinger cartridges. when the fuck has punching through plates ever actually been a practical concern?

>>34663656
Holy mother of apocrypha
You see boys this is how fuddlore is made

The first paragraph cites a quote from some unknown "SOF NCO"

The second mentions pat rogers, after a few googles of him and his videos i haven't seen him ever talk about 5,7 or 4,6

The third mentions yet another unknown guy, a "Decorated, experienced SWAT officer" (The appeal to authority is strong with this one) And he also assumes that this guy's comments about 5.7 also applies to 4.6 for some reason

Now for the last paragraph, this seems extremely biased against PDWs
(copying this straight from your shit article)
>U.S. LE agency would have to be woefully ignorant or colossally stupid to purchase the MP7 (or P90) for SWAT
Not only so but it turns out to be 9 inch SBR and shilling

TLDR: Your article is a large dose of unsourced claims, apocrypha, bias and shilling

note: the fact that the faggot who wrote this article is from california speaks enough volumes

>>34663733
>pointing out that x is objectively better than y for most relevant applications
>shilling
Nice adversarial world view you got there, im sure assuming everyone who tries to correct your stupidity is somehow nefarious or "Shilling" for outside influences really makes it a lot easier to dismiss them out of hand. Wouldn't wanna find out you were wrong about something after all.

>>34663823
>Why the fuck would i want 40rnds of .22 WMR when i can have 30rnds 5.56.
Controlled automatic fire offhand.
No outrageous blast from 10'' barrel.

>>34663858

there's tons of people out there who have tried killing people with pdw's and didn't like it. there are not tons of people out there who have tried killing people with pdw's and thought it was easy and effective.

calling it 'fuddlore' because it's the conclusion of actual experience just means that fuddlore is how you know something is accurate.

practice ALWAYS trumps theory, experience ALWAYS trumps speculation.

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>>34663856
>punching through plates ever actually been a practical concern?

>>34663823
>Why the fuck would i want 40rnds of .22 WMR when i can have 30rnds 5.56.
Hello summer my old friend

>>34663858
>5,7 or 4,6
>complains about DocGKR currently living in cali
>clearly doesn't even know who DocGKR is
Hmmmm, should a europoor really be talking shit on what is almost assuredly a freer state than the nation in which they reside?

>mwap mwap mwap unsourced claims mwap mwap mwap appeals to authority, mwap mwap mwap who is this man to make these kinds of claims and know these kinds of people

Doctor Garry K. Roberts. He's the guy who the FBI ask about which ammo they should carry. He has advised for the feds, the military, and numerous other PDs over the years. He's done more gel tests and observed more autopsies then you could count with your very limited brain space. He is literally the single least reproachable and most influential figure in the world of terminal ballistics.

>>34663902

no, really. find a single time in which LE or military has a need to punch through armored plated opponents, but an actual rifle isn't a better idea than a pdw with meme zingers.

the hollywood bank robbery comes to mind. you know what the cops got? thirty ought six and three oh eight rifles, from a gun store.

>>34663899
It is fuddlore because it's unsourced

give me concrete evidence not this "unknown operator told my dad and my dad told my uncle and my uncle told me that PDWs suck" type of shit

>>34663928

it's not unsourced, unless you don't consider 'actual people who shoot people' a source.

>>34663923
They grabbed AR-15s, Cletus.

>>34663939
and i'm the queen of england and i have over 200 confirmed kills with a pencil

your posts have very little value without any evidence or sources

>>34663892
>hmmmm, do i want to fire 1-3 controlled rounds to take out my targets at the cost of less effective automatic fire that i don't use, have, or need or do i want to have more controllable automatic fire but have to take multiple times longer and more rounds to end most threats?
WOW MAN SIGN ME UP FOR THAT LAST ONE SOUNDS SUPER LEET

>>34663956

so wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

wait.

you're telling me, that the guns that EVERYONE ALREADY HAS, are better than pdw cartridges?

>>34663961

the only 'evidence or source' that has any relevance here is actually shooting somebody. two people actually. are you volunteering to guinea pig for /k/, or are we going to have to rely on the opinions of people who have already shot people with pdw's?

>>34663922
>DocGKR
He is cool guy but obviously has his own agenda. Like shilling for Mk318 vs M855A1.

>>34663969
>do i want to miss single shot or hit with burst

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>>34663899
>>34663922
not that anon but if you seriously consider quotes of unknown people (who may or may not exist, and may or may not be making shit out of their ass) a viable source

>>34663823
>4.6x30.5.7x28 are 22 WMR
Yeah, they're the same, same velocity same energy, same everything, same because 5.7 is tested at 10 INCH barrel, the MP7 t 7 INCH and 22 is tested at 24 INCH

cut down the 22WMR's barrel to 10 or 7 then see how good the WMRs velocity/energy now

>>34663842
you realize that we're just all calling one person for a faggot for falsely claiming to have a legitimate source, right?

>>34664024
false equivalency bordering on a strawman.

>do i want to miss a single shot or miss a burst?

>do i want have to shoot my opponent a couple of times or do i want to have to hose him down with bullets until he finally slumps to the ground.

There's a reason why any group that seriously does this kind of work prefers carbines to PDWs.

>>34663999
>the only 'evidence or source' that has any relevance here is actually shooting somebody. two people actually. are you volunteering to guinea pig for /k/, or are we going to have to rely on the opinions of people who have already shot people with pdw's?

>We'll have to rely on the opinions of people who may or may not exist and may or not be lying
I'm not sure why you insist on the authenticity of these apocrypha quotes, are you an SBR babby?

>>34663823
can somebody make a reaction image for .22 WMR? Like a drooling tard face with .22 ammo stuffed in his mouse. I don't want to bother arguing with people the difference, I just want to tell them to fuck off

>>34663441
Google it, there isn't much info out there but what you can see is damn impressive

>>34664060
An unsourced claim from an anonymous person on a Mongolian throat singing forum? No.

A professional opinion from the foremost expert on a subject based on a combination of his personal experiences and the experiences shared with him by other professionals with specific expertise on a subject matter who must remain nameless for very real and valid reasons? Yea, probably if they have a good track record.

>>34664060
You're right that they're only similar with woefully different barrel lengths. Im right in that those also happen to be the kind of barrel lengths these cartridges are shot out of. Ignoring the whole five seven side of things.

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>>34663656
>>34664137
>>34663922
>>34663899
the "source" you posted is literally just fucking quotes without the identity of the guys who said them or ANY info proving their authenticity, and what makes it shadier is that the guy stealthily slides to recommending SBRs and specific brand shit like the Mk17 and the KAC SR25
do not expect anyone to take you seriously with this miserable heap of a 'source'

>>34664137
My following claim has as much authenticity as the forum post you cited

>the AR sux and the AK rocks
>t. an operator

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>>34664137
>A professional opinion from the foremost expert on a subject based on a combination of his personal experiences
no you double nigger, he never wrote anything out of his own opinion or experience or facts, he just copypasted or wrote these quotes then proceeded to shill for 308 battle rifles

note: i have not smelled one hint of objectivity in this article.

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Best thread I can find for this, so I'll ask it here. Why is 5.7 not more popular then it currently is as a pistol round?

It has relatively low recoil, high capacity, and at the risk of being crass, the Ft Hood shooting victims illustrated it does it's job well enough with civilian ammo.

Is it simply cost per round, or is something else holding back manufacturers from chambering their pistols in the cartridge?

>>34661986
/thread

>>34663656
>usually on Auto, which is a CQB no-go anyway
What? Isn't CQB one of the few places where fully automatic fire is genuinely useful?

>>34664177
It's the opinion of the foremost expert on terminal ballistics(gary roberts) with quotes from people who couldn't be named to back it up.

Everything said has also been echoed for years and buy multiple sources familiar with the subject. Only PDW fags argue otherwise.

FYI he recommends those because they have a good reputation amongst the people who use them.

I mean, who would take the opinion of the guy who literally advises the FBI on terminal ballistics opinion on terminal ballistics. Crazy.

>>34664188
more like

>SGT badass, a man with 30 yrs of experience, a relevant doctorate, militarily trained and the very man the FBI and multiple other agencies ask for advice on carbines.

> hey guys my names sgt badass, i really don't like the AR platform in fact i think it sucks

>here are some relevant quotes from some good dudes I know in the military and leo community, sorry but as this kind of talk could get them in trouble i can't name any names.

>this is why you should pick an something like an arsenal AK instead of a PSA AR.

HURRR DURR UNSOURCED CLAIMS, HE DIDNT PROVE ANYTHING

>>34664216
5.56 SBRs actually. he quoted those people presumably because they had real world experience with the specific situations in question. Also, While BG testing never tells the whole story it does back up his claims as the 5.7 and 4.6mm rounds offer terrible performance in gel.

>>34664255
for (military) logistics, for civilians, price

>>34664325
>says "experts" made a claim
>has no documentation or proof that experts made these claims
>huurrr durr hes citing experience

Oh, this is a elaborate troll

>>34664325
>>34663899
>>34663656
>>34664137
Well hello there, docGKR, nice of you to shill your threads here

>>34664325
Let me post it again

My following claim has as much authenticity as the forum post you cited

>the AR sux and the AK rocks
>t. an operator

>>34658189
They want this poor dog to be tracked and killed in his house or what?

>>34658048
>bloody

>>34664430
>>34664434
>>34664443
>2k17
>samefagging
>being a PDW shill
>not knowing who DocGKR is or what is online presence is but hoping that if you call him an "expert" instead of an expert it will somehow invalidate his decades of experience and peerless standing in a field of research
>ISHYGDDT

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>>34664505
nani?!

Look if you want to prove a point then post some real concrete data, instead of clinging to some dude who wrote an evidence-less apocrypha just because he as a fed

>>34661114
>300 blk is basically hot .45
And .308 is just hot .50AE

>>34664560
I already posted a reputable source in the form of an opinion from a leader in the field of terminal ballistics. What i'd love to see would be you posting some real concrete data explaining how SBRs really are just a meme and PDWs are so much better

p90 cool gun or coolest gun?

>>34664634
go fuck yourself, you dumb troll

>>34664634
>What i'd love to see would be you posting some real concrete data explaining how SBRs really are just a meme
the fact that they make 556 drop like a rock and makes it's velocity pistol cartridge tier

>>34657954
Politics, it's always politics.

>>34664690
>pistol cartridge tier
False, even 75gr rounds are moving well north of 2000fps.

>drop like a rock
it'll definitely drop more but then again long range engagements aren't exactly the purpose of SBRs or PDWs, they're both compromise weapons meant for close-ish quarters.

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>>34664856

>>34657954
>autistic discussion of weapon systems nobody here's even seen in real life, let alone fired: the thread

>>34664939
Go fuck yourself kid

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>>34662069
>>34664470
fixed

>>34663999
>the only 'evidence or source' that has any relevance here is actually shooting somebody. two people actually. are you volunteering to guinea pig for /k/, or are we going to have to rely on the opinions of people who have already shot people with pdw's?
You haven't even given sources from those people. You're just claiming you have sources from those people and this proves you right somehow. Are you retarded?

>>34664844
lel
read>>34661993's link chart

>>34664939
Oh no, close this thread, ban gun discusion on /k/, only discuss ARs, remington 700's and mossbergs

you damned fudd

>>34664939
except someone posted their experience with it and someone sperged out.

>>34657954
Because logistics is more important than slight statistical advantages, and because rifles of any caliber are like the least deadly thing we field anyway.

>>34657954
Because when was the last time you saw sandniggers wear armor?

>>34661795
Honestly never understood why HK didn't just adapt and build some guns in 5.7mm. Imagine a UMP or MP5 in 5.7 with 40rd factory mags.

>>34663923
Secret Service.

>>34661986
>solution: make an MP7 in 5.7x28
Shame H&K are too butthurt about it.

>>34661795
>>34665530
>>34665577
Unpopular opinion time.

>the P90 is better than the MP7 independent of caliber

>>34665592
I personally agree, however, the MP7 could have seen a lot of use as a pilot's weapon.

>>34661986
>make an MP9 in 5.7x28
fixed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHhvbQZfjD4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pSJQKdMS-4

>>34665592
>the P90 is better than the MP7 independent of caliber
please explain how and why, i am hungry for knowledge

as much as i know
>P90 has a bigger mag
>but the MP7 has better size/weight

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>MFW reading this thread

HOW THE FUCK CAN SBRKEKS EVEN COMPETE?

>>34662147
You're confused anon.
If we're talking how hard things hit, it's not just about velocity. It's about speed and weight of the mass that's traveling. If you factor in just SPEED, a crazy bandleader .22 would be better than all standard rounds. But it's not. When you look at a cartridge being better or not, it has to do a bunch of things, not just how fast it goes.

If you can't understand that anon, you're not a /k/ommando

>>34663688
Gtfo ISIS

>>34662997
>no need for SMGs
>get a machine pistol

you do realize what an SMG is? Go sit in a corner dumbass

>>34663207
Source?

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>>34663441
I have a picture of a 30 round clip of 6.5mm CBJ, and yes, I do mean clip.

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>>34657954
>a bunch of negligible shit that doesn't really matter in reality
>So why in god's cock has SOCOM fell for the SBR meme?
Because DA teams don't seem to have any issue shooting religious zealot goat farmers to death with an SBR.

Why are you mad at what lol operators are shooting people with?

>>34668346
Interest in correcting his view on reality? It's usually why people ask questions.
Either that or it's a troll masquerading as above.

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>>34662967

>>34661914
So it gets the same performance as a PDW without changing the platform

Retarded faggot

>>34663181
Look up fort hood shooting, retard.

>>34662147
Who has a better chance of living: someone shot by a 2400 ft/s .22 lr or someone hit by a truck moving 2400 ft/s?

>>34669540
Horrible analogy. 556 is not causing blunt truama. You need to get a brain, moran.

>>34669540
>A truck moving 90,000 miles per hour

I don't know why, but this is very funny to me.

>>34669898
2400 FPS is aprox 1500 MPH.
Sound barrier is abit over 1050 FPS, or 756 MPH.

5.56 ballistics are better at range. fag

>>34657954
I kind of want to get a semi-auto p90 as a range toy, but what optics can you mount up there without it being fucked?

>>34664856
Goddamn that guy's got a stare
Hate to be a terrorist on his watch

>>34661795
How is the 5.7 superior? The 4.6 pushes a bullet of equal weight at slightly higher velocity with a smaller bullet diameter meaning better penetration and longer range due to a better ballistic coefficient.

>>34669540
>>34662158
>>34662289
>>34667445
bitch hold the fuck up, if the velocity deteriorates on a 9 inch barrel, wouldn't the kinetic energy also deteriorate?

notice that in wikipedia it's tested at 20 inch barrel

what's 556 energy in a 9inch barrel?

>>34664285
When fighting space aliens and shit like that, sure. IRL though, all that muzzle flash and kick just gives you tunnel vision, kills your situational awareness and takes up time as you put extra rounds into targets that don't need them. Plus, there's always collateral damage. It's faster, more efficient and precise to train to do double taps. One in the chest to kill, and failing that, stun them for the follow up to the head.

>>34672595
>muzzle flash
No such thing unless you fire AKM/AK-74

>as you put extra rounds into targets that don't need them
1. Auto fire works like shotgun buckshot, competences wrong point of aim with spread.
2. If target wears plate you want more rounds dispersed over body to hit body parts not protected by plate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY_lPyHyqLU

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>>34661991
9x19mm has been able to penetrate IIIA since at least the fifties.

>>34672735
Meant to quote
>>34661114

>>34672587
SOMEBODY ANSWER THIS MOTHERFUCKING QUESTION

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>>34669952
Oh, Google gave me arcseconds instead of per seconds.

>>34673233
Your googlefu is weak, autist, but I'm in a good mood, so here: https://rifleshooter.com/2015/12/223-remington-5-56mm-nato-barrel-length-and-velocity-26-inches-to-6-inches/

>>34673453
Energy, not velocity, jesusfuck

>>34661114
ANY intermediate or full rifle cartridge will penetrate soft armor. They're only rated for pistol rounds and sometimes shotguns. 5.56, 5.45, 7.62x39, whatever the hell you want. No meme rounds required.

>>34673453
>>34673499
>>34673233
700 ft/lbs using a 55gr pill and a 9 inch barrel retards.

Didn't anyone take a physics class? Or google a calculator to do it for you?

>>34674830
Well shit nigger that's Almost PDW level
why even bother with SBRs when you've got something smaller and lighter with a compromise of a miniscule loss in power?

>>34674857
The AP 5.7 is just under 400 ft/lbs from a 10 inch barrel. And all other ammo is around 340 ft/lbs. 1.5x-2x the power, I wouldn't call that "almost".

>>34657954
>Using a high powered pistol cartridge out of a long barrel pistol works better than using a rifle cartridge out of a sbr
you don't say.

>>34669540
Obviously the .22 will bounce around and turn the target to mush

>>34663207
>giving everyone an mp7
wew lad

>>34676582
>not issuing your troops a 16" .308 DMR and a PDW so they can be effective at all ranges
pleb

>>34672587
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/223rifle.html

9mm MP7 for normies when?