Is there a reason why daggers should have a guard? It seems

Guards are made so that your hand doesn't slide onto the blade and cut you if you pierce flesh, not for blocking other blades.

>>34633544
You haven't done fencing have you.

I'll bring up a codex in a sec.

>>34633545
>fencing
>with daggers
I should have been more precise though, I meant guards on daggers only.

>>34633544
Oh yeah, thats another reason but I'm sure it was both reasons. Hmm so were Asians just never worried about cutting their fingers on their daggers?

>>34633546
So only dagger fencing? Or fencing with daggers?

>>34633547
I'm honestly not sure.
Maybe they were held with a different grip? Or maybe it was just japanese autism about their weapons?
>>34633548
No I was saying that fencing has nothing to do with daggers, assuming that we're talking about the modern sport.

>>34633549
I meant fencing as in the art of defence.

European daggers had large guards because they were used in conjunction with a rapier, against rapiers. It could displace a blow by lifting a thrust and ftwisting your wrist to push it away and go for a counter thrust.

Asians however never used thrust oriented weapons. Daggers were seldom used on the battlefield and when it was, they were often thrown as a distraction before coming for a strike.

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>>34633549

>>34633550
>>34633551
You are right, I forgot about defensive daggers.

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>>34633549
Not just the japs, alot of Indian daggers and some flip and Persian/central Asian ones as well.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesh-kabz
though I guess the fact many of them like the one in the link were curved daggers may have something to do with it?

>>34633550
oh so,Jap knives were mostly used for throwing bit stabbing? What about the kaiken amd tanto though?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantō

>>34633543
If you look at medieval daggers, many of them didn't have large quillions, those start to be common with companion daggers.
Bollock daggers and many baselards have a guard but quite a small one.

The dagger shown is for fighting in armor, so that having a guard isn't exactly crucial as your hands and arms should already be protected by gauntlets or the likes.

Of course, if your dagger is mainly used for parrying as it came to proeminence in 16th century Europe, you'll start to see knuckle-bows, large quillions and bell guards coming up.

>>>/k/

>>34633551

>POCKET KNIFE

>>34633543
>>34633544
>>34633549
Asian bladed weapon schools teach to hold with your pinky, ring then middle finger

The pinky holds tighest

Western bladework is index finger and thumb grip so there's more danger of slipping over onto the blade with that style

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>>34633543
It's not necessary on most things (many early bowies didn't have guards) but you'd want it on anything meant to defeat mail, such as a yoroi-doshi. That looks like storage fittings and I very much doubt the knife was used in that state.

>>34633550
>European daggers had large guards because they were used in conjunction with a rapier, against rapiers

Not necessarily, main-gauche style works with sabre, backswords, smallswords etc as well as rapier and was used well into the 1800's. It mostly went out of favour at the sporting/fencing level.
That said, there's a LOT of dagger types in both the European and Asian origins to the point its a bit hard to generalise about them, culturally stuff like the Japanese tanto and kaiken where basically around as the 'everyday carry' for people. Its bit more elegant than smashing someones brains out with a rock or stick, has some utility uses, as well as ritual suicides and stuff like that- actually getting into knifey fighty when someone else has a sword, you're probably fucked.

Kendo did have/does have a two sword style with a long and short sword (name escapes me- Nitu-something), but they where technically both swords and not a dagger and sword

>>34633620
>Kendo did have/does have a two sword style with a long and short sword (name escapes me- Nitu-something), but they where technically both swords and not a dagger and sword
It's "nito" (literally "two swords") but yeah, the shorter sword replicates a kodachi/wakizashi, not a tanto or any sort of dagger so it's not really similar to rapier/sword and dagger.
The closest european thing to the japanese nito/ryoto would be longsword and messer/dussack, as silly as it sounds.

Also, nito is quite niche and not super well seen in kendo. Wielding the two swords is still taught in many old styles though.

>>34633551
Things like that are often not reliable sources for how weapons were actually used. For a while, every other retired soldier would open up a school to teach "secret" "techniques", and a lot of those "secrets" were complete bogus scams meant to impress people who have no idea how fighting is actually done and get as much of their money as possible.

>>34633608
thanks alot. I dont see how this isn't also /his/ related though...I assumed /k/ focused mostly on modern weaponry and only had historical weapon threads once in a while.

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>>34633563
>Western bladework is index finger and thumb grip

For a smallsword, sure. But with many other weapons far less so. A longsword you'll grip very much like you'd grip a katana. If there's any specific grip variant being recommended in any of the old dagger manuals feel free to quote it.

>>34633554
Tanto seem like they'd be generally useful for both cutting and stabbing. Given that you're unlikely to chop an arm off with a knife, stabbing is probably preferred if you want your opponent to stop trying to kill you any time soon, though if the situation gives you an opportunity to cut but not stab then some damage is better than no damage.

Overall, the tanto is also the dagger in Japan, kaiken being a subtype. Not exactly meant for throwing, you'd probably have a shuriken with you if that was the plan. As for battlefield use IIRC they were somewhat frequently carried as a companion to your full-sized sword instead of a wakizashi or so. We also see one type of tanto, the yoroidoshi, meant for anti-armour work. Matching such daggers from, well, every other culture with such really it has a reasonably acute point and a very thick, study blade.

>>34633544
This
>>34633545
A guard isn't exactly needed for use on a dagger by itself, but as stated by other anons and longer dagger with bigger guard is good for trapping the enemy's weapon

>>34635764
Well, when you get right down to it, there's not a lot of difference between a long dagger and a short sword, so if you're getting into a real fight with it, having a simple guard is better than not having it.

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>>34635814
Just as with swords, the intended method of use for daggers vary, and their designs with that. A large guard might get in the way of some of the stuff we find in late medieval dagger work.

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>>34636021
A lot of that stuff is done with shorter daggers, not the long backup-weapon kind.
And I'll point out the ballock/bollock dagger, which was relatively short, but extremely popular and used for many purposes, had a (admittedly small) guard. It also looks like a dick, and is generally worn in a sheath that goes directly down the front of your pants so it looks like the handle is an erect cock.

>>34633543
The majority of European bladed weapons until the end of the Viking period had modest to no guards, look at seaxs, the various types of gladius, Frankish/Baltic/Slavic/Nordic swords before 1100, German Iron Age and Bronze Age swords found in bogs. I believe the prevalence of guards increased for two reasons:

>Less use of shields on the battlefield, requiring implements on the weapon itself to protect your hand
>Daggers being used against hard targets like plate and maille, requiring something to keep your hand from slipping up onto the blade if you miss a gap and hit the armor itself

As far as Asiatic weapons not using guards, I don't know. I don't study Eastern weapons but I'd assume it's just different martial practices.

>>34636201
As anon said>>34633555
armor and gauntlets kind of negated the used of guards for protecting the user's fingers.
As armor started falling out of favor or in situations where armor was less likely to be worn, you would need it?

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>>34635479
/k/ necessarily has a lot of /his/ crossover because people have always into weapons and in many ways old things never become 100% irrelevant, shoulders of giants and all that.

we did you tard

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sai_(weapon)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_sword

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katar_(dagger)

>>34633554
>deliberately disarm yourself in a duel
fight me anon