Gripen E Withdraws From Belgium Fighter Competition

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So they're willing to provide full support to Brazil across the ocean but Belgium is too hard?

>its a Lockheed bribes the Gov't of Belgium to sell them fighters episode again

>>34607702
Did they bribe Sweden too?

>>34607690
It's a way of bowing out and saving face once they figured out they're gonna lose.

>>34607690
>operational support
Belgium want someone who is also willing to fight the war for them.
Brazil was happy to get their planes and after that don't want the Swedes around for anything else than future research.

>>34607702
The scary thing is that there are people out there that WILL believe this and tell others about their delusions.

>>34607690
Belgium was already lost case for them, just like Denmark. Why being there just for the hell of it, when it's clear that F-35 WILL win.
They better focus on making sure that Swiss referendum won't blow them away this time around, and actually push Finland a bit. Not to mention the whole Austria deal, where they literally want to get rid of Typhoon for sake of the Gripen.

>>34607690

SAAB has a policy of immediately dropping out of any competition where the F-35 is in the running.

>>34608081
SAAB did try for both Denmark and Norway though.

Unrelated, it looks like SAAB got Botswana at least.
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2016-06-17/botswana-confirms-saab-gripen-negotiations

>>34607702
>when saab literally got investigated for bribing the three countries that fly gripens to buy their planes in the first place

>>34608192
Cuz no one wants to buy a re-skinned F-16 when the Typhoon and F-35 exist.

>>34608318
>Typhoon
No one wants a typhoon when any alternative exist.

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>>34607790

Lockheed kinda set the standard for bribery in 50's, 60's and 70's. There are two ways how F-104 got export contracts, first is handing them out for free (paid by US taxpayers) or by bribery on massive scale. To secure deal with Japanese they also used yakuza.

>>34608318
>Typhoon
No, Hans
NO

>>34608930
>>34608318

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2017-07-11/pentagon-officials-brief-germany-on-f-35-fighter-jet

>Germany might be buying the F-35 to replace the Tornado

Lockheed Cock conquers all in time

>>34608956
well when fucking f-35 is getting close to 80 mill and only competitors in price are now 20 mill more expensive you really need to do some serious political gymnastics to pick something else

>>34608978
Their options are also pretty limited. The F-35 is the only reasonable Tornado replacement on the market. They've been looking to France to develop a new fighter with, but France isn't in a hurry, they've got the Rafale and won't give a shit about replacing it until the mid-30s. Germany needs a Tornado replacement set up by 2025.

>>34608192
Saab bribery pales in comparison to what Airbus pulled in Austria

>>34609620
Not to mention that Czechs love their Gripens, it's just Hungarians that keeps crashing them.

> replacing 59 aircraft with 36

yeah but y tho.

It's fairly obvious that the F-35 is going to win out. It's slightly more expensive than both the Rafale and the T-t-t-t-typhooooon but you're getting a legit 5th gen jet fighter that will have very little competition for at least 15 years.

Just buy it you fucks.

How much were they asking for the Gripen?

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>>34611220
>>34609491
>>34608978
>>34608956
>>34608318


>be part of EU
>take EU gibs
>use it to buy American choppers and aircrafts

Every fucking time...

Well at least we are going to have plenty samples to reverse engineere all that tech for future EU army. Joke on you amerilards.

>>34611247
SAAB pulled out before a price was set, just like Boeing.
Belgium wanted "operational support" which Swedens neutrality did not allow for.

>>34608818
Wasn't Lockheed Martin only founded 22 years ago?

>>34611192
It might be cheap to buy but it will not be cheap to fly.
The US currently pay $97m flyaway for their F-35 but they already have the best support structure in place and they have bought lots of them.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/f-35-cost-target-impossible-without-block-buy-lockh-433981/
How much belgium will pay when all costs are included is unknown but buying small quantities drives up the price for each individual aircraft.

>>34608081
Most NATO-countries have already chosen the f-35, and have even de facto ordered them from LM. It's just that EU competition laws doesn't allow governments to buy whatever they want, they have to hold some kind of public procurement. It's pretty much a farse, but of course, there is still a chance to win it. The aerospace companies have to weigh their war budgets against the perceived chance to win.

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Belgian here.

I think you're forgetting an important political element here. The F16s we have now have a nuclear giggleswitch, used to the american nukes stored at Kleine Brogel airbase.
Only the F35 has compatibility with those nukes atm. If the political decision is made that Belgium needs to continue to rely on american nukes, than the decision is already made.

However, if the F35 is not chosen, that means a radical departure from current policy. I only see the Rafale as being able to do that, but chances are rather slim.

Belgium shares training with the French (Rafale) and the Dutch (F35). In operational cooperation, Belgium is closer to the Dutch though.

Quite frankly, I'd rather see Belgium go for the Rafale, even if it turns out to be slightly inferior. We use our planes as air police (at home) and bomb trucks (on deployment). It doesn't need to be super fancy cutting edge. Choosing the Rafale could have local economic benefits.

>>34611192
>yeah but y tho.

Cuz budget restrictions.
I suspect more might be bought later on, as needed.

>>34612811
Ah, i see. Belgians required aerial refueling support (that swedes would refuel their planes???) and image analysis (wat?), and the procurement was government to government (ie. SAAB sells to Sweden, Sweden sells to Belgium).

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Belgium a shit country.

Never forget Leopold.

One day with Chinese/Russian support, the Africans will invade that shit cunt and hack off the hands and feet of all Belgians.

>>34612835
lol the F-22 started development before then. Lockheed Martin is the combination of the Lockheed corporation (that built the SR-71, F-104, U-2, C-130, F-117, P-3, etc) & Martin Marietta (which built military electronics, ICBMs, launch rockets and spacecraft).

They've also since bought / swallowed General Dynamic's Fort Worth division (that developed the F-111 & F-16) and more recently, Sikhorsky (UH-60 Black Hawk, CH-53 ___ Stallion, etc).

>>34612932
>what is disease and famine for 500 europamoney

>>34612835
Lockheed Martin was formed 22 years ago. Lockheed had been around a long time before that. It just didn't have the Martin part.

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>>34612922
>Belgians required aerial refueling support (that swedes would refuel their planes???)

Belgium does not have airtankers. So in case of deployment, they requested support from the selling nation. The US or France can easily provide this.

Obviously the belgians would pay for it.

>>34612932
>Never forget Leopold.

That's Leopold II, you dumbass.
Leopold I was pretty universally loved.

As for the history of Leopold II in the Congo?
Leopold II was awarded the Congo Free State as his personal property by the Berlin Conference. Leopold II decided to exploit it, and took personal control. He banned access to press and sent in what were basically mercenaries to carry out his will.
Once the atrocities were sufficiently well known in Belgium, the belgian parliament forced Leopold II to transfer the Congo Free State from his personal property to the belgian state, thus becoming the Belgian Congo. Once that happened, rule of law was imposed, public education and healthcare were instated across the Congo. Abuses were (largely) squashed.
In time, the Belgian Congo would be given independence.

>One day with Chinese/Russian support, the Africans will invade that shit cunt and hack off the hands and feet of all Belgians.

Funny, if you ask the majority of Congolese, they'd prefer Belgians to return over the corrupt local politicians and mounting Chinese influence.

>>34612963
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_L._Martin_Company

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>>34612932
iirc dutch hold the record for how long they could keep a person (some indonesian iirc) impaled and alive, it was several days

they likely were the most cruel colonizers

>>34612974
But swedish neutrality doesn't allow for that, and probably less so the imint/elint/sigint support.

On a sidenote, it's quite impressive how SAAB manages to sell anything from a country with such retarded arms export laws.

>Sweden does not permit the selling of weapons to a nation that might engage in armed conflicts

Sweden only sells arms to countries that will never use them. That is their law.

>>34613011

jesus is that for real?

Why the fuck do they even bother then? Those are tools to kill you're selling dumb fucking hypocrite cucks..

>>34613011

>Sweden only sells arms to countries that will never use them

bs

pri.org/stories/2014-05-23/peace-loving-sweden-and-switzerland-are-among-top-arms-exporters-capita-world

>>34613011
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WrQ_I4Ewcs

That and the whole of NATO and their aunts are using AT4s ...

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>>34613011
You'd find Swedish weapons in use both by the US and Saudi Arabia. Active use as blowing dudes up.

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>>34612932

It's funny that you're so negative about it all.

The "Force Publique", Leopold II's private army in the Congo Free Sate, and Union Minière's mercenaries were the basis for what we regard as PMCs today.
They cleared the way for mercs like Executive Outcomes.

They also represented the largest private militaries in the world.

This is just how old world colonialism worked. And historically, it's quite tame. Ghenghis Khan, african slave trade, islamic conquests, etc all had a much more profound impact.

>>34613030
but afghanistan is a UN peacekeeping mission, anon

That sort of reasoning is very common here. The problem isn't really that the weapons themselves are used, it's that swedish foreign policy (and especially neutrality) is held on such a high piedestal that just saying NATO out loud makes politicians shudder. Its a sort of institutional memory that nobody wants to break in public, but also one that nobody really adheres to either.

>>34613065

France is using AT4 as well on their own all over their former colonies. Gotta keep an hold on that uranium.

>>34613065
The duality is very pronounced if you study its history, especially the cold war and post-1991.

Swedish politicians will bail on any deal, no matter the cost, if it makes them look bad. Look at the Saudi Arabia-deal for instance. When it came into public knowledge that 20% of swedish arms export was going to Saudi Arabia, there was a huge outcry. Of course, every single party voted for it (and both blocks ruled during the deals), and every single party swears they had nothing to do with it.

Every single politican wants to be Olof Palme (or Harald Edelstam, etc etc), ie. some righteous foreign affairs god defending the opressed against whatever percieved enemy.

The swedish government, no matter its colour, doesn't care at all about the money.

>>34613011
Stop spreading bullshit

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>>34613118
http://www.isp.se/media/1220/de-svenska-riktlinjerna.pdf

ISP is the inspection of strategic products if you're not swedish (though i suspect you are).

>>34607702
Sell 'em more F104 Lawn Darts?

>>34608081
It makes sense from a marketing perspective- you can't lose a competition you refuse to participate in.

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>>34607260
Boeing also pulled out.

Also, the requiement was to be able to provide aerial refueling togheter with the jet, wich Sweden is unable to.

>>34613011
Sweden isnt neutral tho. So stop with the bullshit.

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>>34613525

The Gripen NG doesn't make for a very good bomb truck anyway.

>>34613525
Sweden has aerial refueling planes, it's more of a political problem.
The tender is written in such a way that the F-35 is the only realistic option, it is all but unthinkable that Belgium switches to housing French nukes from US nukes.

>>34613576
>Sweden has aerial refueling planes, it's more of a political problem.

That and dragging that poor herc to wherever the waffles need to fill up. Unless someone could sneak in a "refuelling offers only valid for flights to northern Finland, void entirely whenever the Swedish air force need it" clause into the fine print.

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>>34613576
>The tender is written in such a way that the F-35 is the only realistic option, it is all but unthinkable that Belgium switches to housing French nukes from US nukes.

There still maybe be a political decision saying we don't need any nukes at all.

After all, we initially got the nukes to be able to destroy soviet tank divisions crossing into Germany. (yes, the plan was to nuke Germany)

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>>34613576
We have one single C-130H configured to aerial refueling, and we need that one our self. Also, they are going out of service soon, so no, we could not provide that for a nation that far away

That said I still agree with you about that the tender was written so the F-35 would win. Thats why Saab and Boeing pulled out.

>>34609491
Developing things with France also has a long history of going sour.

>>34613576
>The tender is written in such a way that the F-35 is the only realistic option

Out of curiosity can you cite the language in the tender that does this?

>>34613796
In terms of Gripen? Im not that guy, but the Belgians know full well that Sweden is not going to refuel their aircraft or analyse their int...

>>34613796
The RFP actually specifically does not mention a nuclear requirement. That said, Belgium officials have noted in the past that they do need to carry nukes, so it's more of an unofficial requirement.

Technically the Rafale can carry nukes, but the US would never let a foreign plane carry their bombs.

>>34613796
>>34615172
Details.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/feature/5/182326/belgian-rfp-sets-opens-competition-for-f_16-replacement.html

>>34615172
>The RFP actually specifically does not mention a nuclear requirement.

That's because officially there are no nukes on belgian soil. ;)

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>>34612932
why would you forget a man so worthy of fond remembrence?
are you perhaps a filthy neger?

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>>34612771

The joke's on you, the F-35's psychoframe only works when piloted by a hot-blooded American pilot with freedom in his heart and burgers in his tummy.

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>>34612771
>We have reached a point in time at which Europeans have become the retarded third worlders salivating at the thought of reverse engineering foreign technology as it is their only means of obtaining it

Shit, I always assumed that this sort of shit was the domain of China, India and Russia. But you know that the world order has truly changed the moment formerly great European engineering has to resort to this same strategy.

>Joke on you amerilards

I... I don't think so desu.

>>34615478
>Shit, I always assumed that this sort of shit was the domain of China, India and Russia. But you know that the world order has truly changed the moment formerly great European engineering has to resort to this same strategy.

It's not an issue of engineering, it's purely an issue of money.
Look at the railguns. Future-tech created by a British company, but paid for by the US Navy.
Likewise, European nations still have the best warships on Earth, merely lack carrier tech.
Top of the line in the car industry.
Heaven of science between all the world's best universities, particle colliders and grants out of the ass to research whatever the fuck they want.

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>>34615593
>Heaven of science between all the world's best universities, particle colliders and grants out of the ass to research whatever the fuck they want.
>It's not an issue of engineering, it's purely an issue of money.
please stop posting. You're making us look bad here

>>34615593
>It's not an issue of engineering, it's purely an issue of money.
>Heaven of science between all the world's best universities, particle colliders and grants out of the ass to research whatever the fuck they want.

Nigga, what?

>>34615626
>>34615655
Military research is strictly in the private sector and a matter of engineering.
Engineering != science.

What I said is that there is a large enough pool of specialists in Europe to draw from, but because of how it works, no one with half a brain would willingly go work for the local arms companies.

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>>34615761
again, im the Frenchfag in >>34615626 and I beg of you to please cease posting. I don't you understand literally anything about arms research projects.
>Military research is strictly in the private sector and a matter of engineering.
holy shit

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>>34615593
>European nations still have the best warships on Earth

>>34615761
Engineering = applied science