The lube thread...

>>34585345
Qtddtot you stupid asshole

this is actually an interesting topic. what are the general ideas around this? do you put a thin layer of oil on every metal part? none at all? just specific point? grease, lube or something else? what about those ceramic coating sprays?

I refuse to have 2 different types of lubes so I only use oil (slip 2000 ewl) for everything in both my ar15's and pistols.

Grease on fastly moving parts, oil on slow ones

Or maybe its the other way around

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>>34585437

Look at this retard arguing about a lubricant thread on an Indonesian Biology Forum.

smdh desu senpai

>>34585345
Yo could lube your gun with olive oil if you'll be using le fuir kleen you dumb overpaying impressionable nigger

>>34586345
DO NOT do this. Cooking oils will gunk up when heated and then cooled.

>>34586446
Coconut oil is fine, natural, cheap, doesn't go rancid, and has seen militarily/police use in tropics.

>>34585345

shit dude I just bought a tub of oil and throw my gun in it after cleaning, works fine

>>34585345
Kinda an interesting thread.

I use ballistols but it seems like it dries up after a trip to the range. Anyone got a good reccomendation for some good stuff to keep my gun slick and also corrosion free?

>>34585345
Your gunsmith probably made that up based on like one experience.
Nearly everything on a car contradicts that. Wheel bearings on spindles turn yet you use grease on that. Pistons slide in bores yet they use oil.
While I know that's a car and not a firearm my point is there is no reason why you should be using one or the other based on what movement the part does. Grease is typically used for areas that aren't exposed to much contamination and is low maintenance. Oil for things that will get dirty and you'll frequently replace.
To sum it up, there is no reason to MUST apply one over the other unless the manufacture calls for it. Just use oil on everything, it's been done for bajillion rounds of ammo and it works.

Gun lubricant selection is not as critical as you think, although you'd probably prefer something that helps against rust and stays on the surfaces that need lubrication. You also don't need a lot of lubricant, and an excess of lubricant can attract particulate matter and cause problems. An example of this that I have lived is using too much grease on the sliding parts of a 1911, shooting blazer brass, and getting burnt powder everywhere inside the pistol.

Personally, I've been using NLGI 20% Moly grease for my 1911, because Hoppes oil was just running off and drying out. My AR-15 bolt was last lubed with motor oil, but that's probably going to change when I clean it again since I left the oil behind in a move. I've been looking at lubriplate sfl-0, which is an NLGI 0 grease designed for good performance even when wiped away (food safe machinery), and has some rust prevention additives. I forget where I first read about it. I intend to use that shit on everything, since it's not that viscous but still stays where you put it.

For application, especially with grease, you should clean the surfaces and wipe the grease on in a thin layer. Since a pistol is small and I don't like to make a mess, I just put half the tip of a cotton swab's worth of grease on each rail and work the slide a couple times.

>>34586514
I'm not aware of any vegetable oil that has remotely the same temperature/oxidation stability as an esther or akelene base synthetic though.

If I'm off base, feel free to throw a white paper at me.

>>34586705
Plus no form of EP package for boundary lubrication, which is pretty much all of a firearm's mode of operation.

>>34586193

I have heard several different things from military and gunsmithing experience,

Military taught me just keep lubin it and it will never go wrong (literally soaking wet)

Gunsmithing and various factory schools teach using certain custom greases for different types of gun metal.

rule of thumb is a "light coat" which usually means enough to make the metal shine, but not enough that you can wipe it and get your hands wet from oil. With a few extra drops on moving/sliding parts

>>34586670
Check out Krytox GPL-216.

Here is the best gun lube. You can thank me later.

Take the red, high-temp wheel bearing grease. Mix in 5w-20 motor oil until it thins out but still is still gloppy like grease. The mixture ends up being about 30-40% oil.

This is think enough that it will not bind anything tight, even 1911s, and is thick enough that it fucking STAYS. It won't burn off or run away due to gravity. Good for any temp. For about $10 you have enough lube to last a lifetime, too. Can be used on ANY rifle or handgun. Cleans right the fuck off like Firemem and frog-meme-lube, even after hundreds of rounds fired.

You're welcome.

>>34587023
Does that EP basically boil down as suspended teflon? I ask because I can't find any mention of Breakfree CLP for example having these, unless it's the hydrotreated petroleum distillates, whatever the fuck that means.

>>34587105
Teflon is an EP agent (PTFE), but only one of many. Other common ones are molybdenum disulfide and ZDDP. How an extreme pressure (EP) additive works is it forms a lubricating surface when either the compressive force is too high or the surface speed is too low to allow a lubricating oil film to form. Both moly and PTFE are solid additives in suspension that do this, while ZDDP and sulfur EP compounds are soluble and react with the metal surface, forming a film. One important fact to not is that PTFE will actually slightly increase friction against another PTFE coated surface, and many EP additives have a hard time forming lubricating films on DLC coatings.

>>34587105
Nevermind, just realized that Teflon is a brand name for PTFE. Duh.

>>34587177
Yup, it's DuPont's version

>>34587169
> ZDDP
I remember the gear heads mentioning they didn't use this as an additive to their oil any more due to poor poor boundary lubrication at high pressure.

I don't know shit about cars. How does peak engine cylinder pressure compare to things like 60000 psi in the .308 family?

>>34586193
>Military taught me...

And that's where you're wrong.

>>34587274
Well the EP additives are more for the lubrication of sliding components after the chamber begins to unlock, not the chamber walls, so you're just looking at the sliding motion of the components from a standstill - but you're right, ZDDP is a pretty old example, and in a grease, suspended solid additives can provide the same if not better benefits without the reactivity of soluble EP compounds. I work mostly with bearing and gearbox lubrication, so I don't know as much with applicability to combustion engines.

>>34587293
This.

If it isn't a friction point, it does not need lube. And even some friction points don't need lube. The answer is that every gun is different and have different lube points. You don't just soak the whole innards of a gun because some fucktard taught you that because he didn't know the proper lube points of that gun. For instance, there are only 6-7 lube points on an AR-15. The rest can stay bone dry.

Do you lube your entire engine bay, coating the outside of the radiator and the alternator, or only points in the drivetrain that need it?

Soaking a gun down with oil is what idiots do when they don't know what to lube, creating excess lube that can gum up with powder residue, lint and other particles.

>>34587351
How much pressure would the back faces of the lugs on a rotating bolt on an AR10 see once the gas key unlocks and the carrier begins moving backward? I know it won't be the full 60k, but I figure it still has to be moderately high with the bullet still in the chamber.

>>34587391
> Bullet still in chamber

Still in barrel, I mean.

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>>34587359
>Do you lube your entire engine bay, coating the outside of the radiator and the alternator, or only points in the drivetrain that need it?

Do you not?

>>34587274
It's important to remember that the chamber pressure is not the same thing as the contact pressures in the moving parts of a semiautomatic firearm. You shouldn't lube your chamber, anyway. That said, here's a video of a cylinder compression test for the Prince 1.6 liter turbocharged as used in a JCW mini.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPzuLJi_Qd4
Granted, there's nothing burning, but the cylinder really only makes it to around 130 PSI.

>>34587391
>How much pressure...
I can maybe field this. I can't give a quantitative answer, lacking quantitative data, but I can probably give an explanation of how I might find it. I don't own an AR-10, but I understand the modern AR-10 to be a beefed-up AR-15 in terms of design methodology.

The entire point of the gas tap in that style of action is to let the pressure drop to a "safe" level. I'm not entirely sure what exactly what would be. However, there wouldn't be much force between locking lugs on the bolt and the barrel extension. Let me prepare a diagram to explain this.

>>34587391
Right but you wouldn't have movement of those faces until your chamber unlocks, which hopefully should be after the chamber pressure has dropped back down, and a film can form.

>>34587494
This is amazing

>>34587404
Bullet is out of the barrel before it unlocks watch a high speed video for proof.

>>34587633
Given that the carrier has to move a substantial distance for the action to unlock, this doesn't surprise me. The bulk of the impulse (application of force over time) is probably still with the bullet just past the gas hole.

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>>34587359
>there are only 6-7 lube points on an AR-15. The rest can stay bone dry
So this is bullshit then?

>>34587359


Engines have closed lubrication systems its not even close.

there is nothing wrong with soaking it with lube. it doesn't fuck up the gun or gum it up.

>>34588091
It's definitely overdone. Things like front sight post detent, trigger guard pin, dust cover pin, rear sight, etc. need a drop of oil every few years at most, and everything on the bolt and carrier group can be condensed into two or three points.

>>34587633
It's surprisingly difficult to find a video of this, but maybe my google-fu just blows. But this guy's long-winded explanation backs you up. He mentions that this may not be the case with over-gassed rifles though.

http://www.ar15barrels.com/prod/operation.shtml

ive used literally nothing but hoppes gun oil on my pistols and ballistol on my ar for the past 5 years and all my guns work flawlessly

>>34588281
I don't doubt it. My next question would be if certain types of oils result in less wear and longer lifespan of wear parts, like bolt lugs, extractor, or cam pin.

boshield t9 or g96

>>34588336
oil is oil, grease is grease. Just use something made for guns and not some olive oil and it will work fine

>>34588336
lifespan of the gun will be determined on how much you clean it. oil can only do so much until it is saturated with lead and other deposits

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>>34588153

that military guy from before,

depending on where you get "too much lube" you an get gunk that is pretty severe, another potential issue you can run into (as with striker fired pistols) is that the metal shavings or possibly carbon or sand from the environment can act as a lapping compound (lliquid sandpaper) and break the gun with added friction.

I used to keep guns soaked when I was inna sandbox, because the heat dried out the lube fast, also that was CLP, which the us mil uses for everything, If i was using a different lube, I might have a different view.

I usually just do a light all around coat on all my guns to prevent surface rust (i live a humid place)

choose your lube based on 3 things
1 what environment you are in
2 what characteristics are you looking for in the lube (friction reduction vs all around preservation)
3 what part of the gun are you putting it on.

some poeple like to use different types of lube for the upper/ lower. Sig also swears by using otis gun oil, and frog lube is nice because it is a paste when cold, but turns to fluid when warm

>>34588457
part of reason 3should also include the effects of oil on poly or wood parts, make sure that your lube is not going to chemically react with the gun

bruuuh mil-com tw25 spray

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>>34587391
Alright, let's get the lecture started. I'm not going to trip because I'm pretty sure my writing is going to be too difficult to mimic, and nobody is as autistic about this as me. Your prerequisite is to watch this cutaway animation, so you have a fresh idea of how the bits move.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTk-VXL_2QU&list=PL1-1JVPGcSziMPru7xXfZeC1gTxbT1bDJ
You might also want to watch this playlist if you're confused by how I refer to phases of the classic cycle of operation.

Remember that the objective of this study is to determine the pressure on the sliding locking/unlocking surfaces of an AR-15/AR-10 style action, presumably to determine an appropriate lubricant (one assumes the pressure would be impressive, because if I didn't think this was fun I wouldn't be doing this for free on an anonymous Bornean skull decoration website). To determine such pressures, we would first examine the interactions that dictate the forces at those interfaces, and then evaluate each interaction for pressure where applicable to determine the maximum pressure on a pair of sliding surfaces. To actually calculate, we would need to know something quantitative about the initial rearward travel of the bolt carrier, be it working pressure in the piston, the total impulse of the gas on the carrier (and therefore momentum of the carrier after the gas pressure plummets as the bullet leaves the muzzle). We can get an approximate idea of working pressure in the gas piston system with the Le Duc equation and its implications, as well as knowledge of the gas port location. From there, we could evaluate the forces on the bolt carrier during unlocking (a little bit of dynamic system analysis, due to the buffer system), as well as the forces on the bolt locking lugs. This, combined with knowledge of the BCG geometry, would be sufficient to calculate pressure at the sliding contacts.

(1/?)
Next part: Sliding Contacts Inside a Stoner Gas Action: How the God Damn Thing Works

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>>34588881 Cont.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPwTGfhUulk
Here's a slow motion video of the ejection port of an AR-15 with a 20 inch barrel with rifle gas shooting m855.

The stoner gas system initially gets the bolt carrier moving with the piston between the carrier and bolt. That's why the gas rings are there, and that's where the gas goes once it first enters the gas key. There's a very short distance to travel before the gas rings reach the vent holes in the side of the carrier. This happens damn fast, possibly before the gas pressure has significantly fallen. Watching slow motion footage can tell us a few things.
1. >>34587633 is right; the carrier doesn't seem to move relative to the receiver until the rifle jolts from recoil
2. After the initial puff of gas from the vents, the carrier does not seem to speed up

Point 2 is all we care about for our analysis, since the gas still moves faster than the solids (excluding the bullet). We can assume that most of the acceleration of the carrier relative to the upper receiver occurs during this piston phase, and the piston essentially ceases to be when the gas rings pass the vent holes in the carrier.

But what about the forces on the bits of the system? We've got gas at "working pressure" pushing on every point noted in the picture. The only sliding contact at this point is the piston, since the bolt isn't being persuaded to rotate yet. Thus, lube isn't doing anything yet.

The rest of the motion is a little more intuitive. Shortly after the piston opens, the bolt carrier's camming slot meets the cam pin, and the bolt will start to rotate. The carrier pulls on the cam pin, pulls on the bolt, pulls against the locking lugs on the barrel extension. How hard the carrier pulls can be predicted, although not easily.

I need to get up at 0530, so if the thread dies I won't bother posting any more of this. It's off topic, and I think I've made the point I really wanted to make. If not, up next is the math.

>>34589772
I'm down to see you do the math

>>34589772
bumping for for impulse/momentum and kinetics problem as >>34592009 said

White Lithium Grease,(not the spray kind) M-pro 7, and Hoppes. works well.