Could the Mongols have successfully conquered Japan?

>>34535506
Doubtful. They were a land base army. Getting enough ships, horses, equipment, and men across the ocean would probably have been too much for them to attempt.

>>34536019
Bruh they did it twice but failed both times due to the weather. If they'd have made landfall you bet your ass they would have taken over japan. Those nipponese fuckers were so divided they would have sold their neighbors into mongol slavery just to keep their land.

>>34536044
They did make landfall, they ended up losing. But the main reason for their lack of success was that mongols are weak to water. Its why Song China was able to hide behind the Yangtze for 60 years till they were sold out by a traitor chink.

Mongols were very adaptable. If they had just used horse archers they would not have done nearly as well as they did.

Plus they could have simply swamped the Japanese with numbers as soon as they had a secure beachhead.

>>34536044
Exactly.

Island nations are much harder to invade than landlocked nations if they are united, if not they are far easier. See England as an example for both.

>>34535506
I like to think not. I'm not too fond of Mongols. I do think they're fierce warriors and all that but the Japanese surely would have found a way to defend. Maybe the Mongols wouldn't have conquered Japan but would have caused so much annoyance the Japanese would've gladly shelled out a few shekerus to get those smelly barbarian circle-shooters to fuck off until next year.

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>>34536990
>I'm not too fond of Mongols.

>>34535506
>>34536019
>>34536044
>>34536441
Weeb here. I took an Asian history class that covered this topic in detail.

If they successfully landed, they would have conquered Japan but if they also landed, then they would have conquered Europe. The two typhoons that destroyed the invasions also saved Europe from the Mongols. At the time of the invasion of Japan, the Mongol Empire had conquered Eastern Europe and were making preparations to invade Western Europe.

The Mongol Empire invaded Japan twice and these invasions essentially destroyed the Mongol Empire. The first invasion required 1,000 ships and 40,000 soldiers. This was at a time when the typical European army was 5,000-6,000 strong. The second invasion required 4,500 ships and 150,000 soldiers. The number of ships used for an invasion like this would not be eclipsed until WW2.

Two typhoons destroyed all the ships in these invasions. The enlisted men would die in the natural disaster and afterwards, the Mongol Empire would lose territory abroad. Their push into Western Europe would stagnate and they would eventually lose the territory that they conquered in Eastern Europe. More than that, they would also lose the military leaders that participated in these invasions. The capital required to build these ships would destroy their economy and cause economic issues outside the military. Like a domino effect, the drain of capital and failing invasions would cause a long recession that would touch the entire Mongol Empire. It's a really interesting read but these fluke events changed a lot more than the course of Japanese history but the world's history.

>>34535506
No, mongols can't into sailing.

>>34537782
Alcoholism is the reason the mongols didn't conquer Western Europe. Straight talk.

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>>34535506
>Were horse archer tactics really viable on a mountainous island?
Ask the Japanese, they only did it for centuries.

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The Japanese fought as horse archers, anon. It's only after they actually stopped fighting in wars, much like European knights, that we started to see a romanticization of the sword as all they had left was their sidearms.

Ignoring that, the nomads tended to dominate the relatively incohesive gloryhounds that made up noble horsemen. This tended to fit the profile of the Japanese samurai in the same manner as European knights. Disciplined armies that held formation tended to fare far better such as with Alexander in Central Asia and the English during the Crusades. It ultimately would depend heavily on Japanese leadership keeping themselves and their samurai in line.

>>34540045
After the mongol invasion, the horse archer standard had taken a strong blow. Most samurai of the Sengoku-jidai were footmen with some sort of polearm, well also because there was much more samurai than before and most of them weren't that wealthy but still. The horse archer thing has slowly faded out as an actual battle thing right before the Edo era.

After a successful landing mongols would then be faced with navigating a horse oriented army in a country that is majority mountains. They also would not know the terrain well other than a few Korean/Chinese court diplomats on their side that may have been to Kyoto once or twice. They landed in Kyushu the only time they were successful at all. Even if they had succeeded there, they would still have to reboard boats to make progress in Honshu. Attrition and time would be the Mongols greatest enemy while in Japan, as it would only be a matter of time before a typhoon hits regardless, unless they wanted to try a naval invasion over Winter/Spring.

Another thing is that while Japan was very insular which in terms of geopolitics/military strategy is a huge weakness, only ever fighting themselves in squabbles and insurrections, at the very least during the height of Mongol power Japan actually had a unified military run government (bakufu) capable of responding to threats, as opposed to some weak emperor more concerned with court intrigue.

>>34541016
interesting answer. what are your thoughts on >>34537782

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>>34537782
>Invasions of Japan 1274/1281
>Invasions of Hungary and Poland 1285-1287 decisively rekt

I really can't follow the rest of your reasoning either. The mongol empire was already effectively fractured by the time of kublai khan (although they later all nominally pledged allegiance to the yuan emperor and had peace for about a hundred years). A defeat of kublai (of which he had several) would not disturb the golde horde much.

This sounds like some major hogwash, frankly.

>>34535506
so apparently the typhoons were seen as help from the gods so Shinto saw a surge in popularity because of it,

>>34539714
Explain

>>34541223
your invasion dates are wrong bro

>>34543767
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Japan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Mongol_invasion_of_Hungary
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Mongol_invasion_of_Poland

>>34543903
Thanks for the links. I interpreted "invasions" as all the invasions and not the last ones.

What makes you think a defeat against kublai khan wouldn't have an impact on the golden horde?

>>34544166
Because the european endeavours did not concern kublai khan. He was busy expanding his power in east asia - notably, he didn't stop after the failed invasions of japan, instead mounting more expeditions against vietnam, burma and java. The japanese failure was a considerable cost in money (and manpower, though most of those were probably chinese and koreans) but he would not have put those ressources in the service of the golden horde either way. Even had they, they would not achieve much against europe. Army sizes were limited by logistics and the last invasions of poland and hungary proved how incapable the mongols were against prepared middle european states.

>>34541322
Not anon but Ogedei, Tolui, Chagatai, Batu, Guyuk, and pretty much everybody else after Genghis were raging alcoholics. Ogedei was only picked to succeed his fathe r Genghis because he was an amiable drunk where Chagatai was an asshole drunk and Jochi a literal bastard. After Ogedei drank himself to death (thus calling a kurultai and halting Mongol plans for a thrust into central Europe) Guyuk was slated to become Khagan, only to once again become a drunk and eventually get replaced by Mongke, son of Tolui (who also drank himself to death). Mongke purportedly installed a massive silver fountain in the shape of a tree in Karakorum that supposedly pumped out wine for all to partake

>>34536044
You realize Japan was unified by the time the mongols tried to invade right? You stupid ignorant nigger

>>34546467
History is crazy man

horse archers don't do well in a landscape that is 90% forested mountains. if the mongols succeeded you wold see guirrella insurgencies that would not stop

>>34546467
>thus calling a kurultai and halting Mongol plans for a thrust into central Europe
Stop this meme already. The mongols didn't even conquer all of hungary, they got their noses bloodied in croatia, bohemia and austria, they took considerable losses even where they won (mohi, legnica). They did not have the manpower to hold onto poland or hungary, let alone go further west.

Japanese fought with spear, pikes, polearms, and bows.

The terrain favored infantry.

The Mongols would have had to use their ships take move huge formations up and down the coasts to attempt to take ever relatively flat area.

While the Japanese would have had to simply contain the Mongols by blocking the passes and rivers.

There isn't fodder for massive horse formations in Japan.

The Mongols would have given up. Offering the Japanese their retreat in exchange for tribute.

>Without the storm I mean.

Two storms. Both times the Mongols invaded, they were annihilated in a typhoon.

The Japanese quite clearly had the favor of the god Fūjin, I think it's obvious any subsequent invasion would have also been destroyed by him.

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What military has the tenacity and willpower to become the next modern Mongol?

No need for land. No need for capitals. War is your capital. The land can be used as needed, like loose women.

>>34548532
The US is the modern Mongol. We have like 1000 overseas station and bases.