France and Germany to develop new European fighter jet

>>34531183
I'm sure it will be as successful and well funded as the other fleets of joint aircraft projects of European states. How's them german europifghters doing?

>>34531183

Good, now move on to creating a fat fucking uboat krauts.

>>34531183
Why no Raf? What's wrong with Raf?

>>34531199
The RAF probably don't want to since they're gettingthe F-35 and also have the most up to date Eurofighters out of any operator.

They just announced an upgrade to the defensive suite too.

>>34531199
They're buying the F-35

>>34531190
>How's them german europifghters doing?
Doing pretty well actually

>>34531199
Shitty F35s

>>34531191
big uboats aren't stealthy. We only build big uboats for the kikes

>>34531254
You still paying back that debt? Sheesh you krauts are such gullible fools.

>>34531230
>memes

>>34531183
>Developing anything with France or Germany
>thinking this will end well

Nice, that means there won't be an operational Tornado replacement until at least 2050.

>>34531230
TFW Germany will probably buy F-35s to replace their Tornados.

>>34531217
Except for how fucking expensive they are

>>34531283

The Kraut and Gauls are meant for each other ANGLO RAT GO HOME TO ISLAND.

>>34531199
BAE is working with the Japanese.

>>34531183
>France
No thanks

>>34531313
Don't worry anon.
>joint program inevitable fails due to lack of funds and lack of consensus between the multinational aerospace coalition developing it
>buy F-35 instead for $80mil per unit

Problem solved

>>34531217
Less than a third of them are even capable of flying bruh. German military is in an abysmal state.. all these expensive toys they can't even use..

>>34531183
The typhoon and Rafael already exist. Idk why they'd bother dumping money into ANOTHER plane that the Germans will end up buying a bunch of but not maintaining.

>>34531347
Who gives a fuck? They are cool toys.

>>34531345
>buy F-35 instead for $80mil per unit
That's 80mil a unit *now*. Once the F35 production is in full swing it will be even lower.

>>34531365
Does it come with a technology transfer?
I guess not.

>>34531183
what's going to happen :
>"Dassault joins the Program"
>"Dassault leaves the Program"

Dassault unveils the new French aircraft

>>34531360
A penis is great to have, but what good is it no balls?

>>34531262
Being a gullible fool, not that it's accurate, is still better than being a complete brain dead retard like yourself. We don't owe Israel anything, there is no debt.

>>34531463
>being a complete brain dead retard like yourself. We don't owe Israel anything, there is no debt.

And yet you give them free shit sure we can pretend to call it whatever the fuck you want but in the end it works the same as a debt.

>>34531474
Very early on mostly due to employment and the Iraq fiasco. They bought all of their shit afterwards so there is no debt and no free shit either, we work together with Israel and are buying their shit as much as they are buying our shit.

>>34531474
they actually pay for their uboats, only the first one was gifted to Israel by the government

>>34531539
>>34531585

Okeydokey my bad then.

>>34531358
The Rafale's done fine for the French, the Typhoon only really had such a hard time because it was a bureaucratic international mess. Either way, the Typhoons and Rafales aren't going to be very effective by ~2040.

>>34531585
But the new one is at half price, and the other ones also were heavily subsidized

>>34531365
It's $94.6m now, ~$80m in full rate production. Cost should go back up again in the 2020s as production rate steadies and inflation + Block 4 hardware upgrades kick in.

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>>34531183
Translation: Germany pays for France to develop an aircraft, all RnD and production happens in france employing French people paying taxes to the French state. Germany then gets to buy some export specification jets with a 40 % markup.

The German politicians will sell it as a great success.

>>34531653
I fucking hate the french

>>34531653
Ossies are unironically the best.

>>34531665
If the Germans are unlucky they wont even get to buy the jets.

The French screwed the Germans and Italians out of the atomic bomb that way - let them pay for the development then throw them out of the project.

>>34531670
Bavarians are better

>>34531679
It's a rather strange contrast the Frogs are producing pretty much all of their electricity with Nuclear while the Germans pretty much banned the whole thing.

>>34531687
They don't have that Sachsen accent like true NVA grenztruppen.

>>34531627
It's to ensure that the kikes don't ask for reparations. It's cheaper this way

>France and Germany
>New fighter
It's just going to be an autistic and overly complicated piece of shit clone of the F22

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>europe
>spending money on things that aren't refugees and welfare

>>34531708
That is sadly true. Everytime the agreed upon reparations are almost payed, they try to force the Germans to the negotiating table, for more Shekels, by now it really has become quite pathetic.

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>>34531653

Not true. The Germans will insure that some menial parts and labor are added to the air craft in some German cities, then shipped back to France for assembly, then back to Germany. Defense industry gets rich and the EU gets yet another plane they won't make in meaningful numbers while yet again complicating their logistical chain. Not to mention the Germans can't even maintain their fleet now. Whatever new overpriced jet they get will merely rot on runways for the next 20 years.

>>34531670
>>34531687
Should Prussia even be in that image. Prussia was basically lobotomized out of Germany by the Soviet Union and United States.

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>>34531183
lmao can't wait for this trainwreck to start

Sounds, well, ok...

>>34531653

Disgrace. Germany should conjure its Nazi hyperprojects from secret records and create something magnificent

In other words, is it even allowed for Germans to create something nice for change?

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>>34532149
The spirit of a German is inherently Prussian. And Prussia isn't just East/West Prussia, it's also East/West Germany.

>>34531190
>How's them german europifghters doing?

Not quite *as* bad as the worn out to death Tornados, which I suspect this project is aiming to replace.

Should have went with the brits tbqh.

They're the only other EU coutry with a decent aerospace industry.

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I noticed that every program that has more than 1 country in it is literally shit :

>F-35
tons of problems, need more time and money
>Typhoon
Also shit tons of problems, most of owners afraid of flying them
>A-400
Flying grave
>Pak-Fa
big fucking meme

Meanwhile the planes made by one country :

>F-22
Small budget, perfectly working for more than 12 years now
>Rafale
When it was first out, it was best plane in the world, still best European fighter and doesn't have problems
>Su-35
Also working like a charm

>>34532565

>Baiting this hard

>>34531345
>joint program inevitable fails due to lack of funds

Don't know where you've been, but almost all joint military developments between Germany and France were actually really really well funded...to the point they all ran three times over budget and came years late (see: NH90, A400M, Tiger/Tigre chopper, EF Tyhpoon, etc.)

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>>34532536
>Should have went with the brits tbqh.
>They're the only other EU coutry with a decent aerospace industry.
That's nonexistent

>>34532583
what? can't give an argument because I'm right?

>>34532565
>and doesn't have problems
>MICA has a range of 26-32nm
>doesn't have problems

>>34532536

>Should have went with the brits tbqh. They're the only other EU coutry with a decent aerospace industry.

lel

>>34532630
>MICA has a range of 26-32nm
And what? what are other problems?

I don't call this a problem because MICA is a great proven missile, and the METEOR BVR missile is almost finished, best Euro fighter

>>34532658
And what, what? The Rafale has no BVR missiles that can compete with anything. That's a serious problem.

>>34531670
Meckerossi detected.

>>34532565

>When it was first out, it was best plane in the world, still best European fighter and doesn't have problems

It hasn't been any of them since its start.

>>34532658

>MICA is a great proven missile

So whats it shot down then?

>and the METEOR BVR missile is almost finished, best Euro fighter

And the Rafale is only getting a gimped, downgraded version of it, with a shitty radar to back it up.

>>34531199
>what is FCAS/SCAF Dassault/BAE UCAV ?
>what is FCAS/SCAF engine based on a M88/EJ200 mix by Rolls Royce/Snecma-Safran?
You can also bet your left testicle the krauts will want to get in the FCAS too. And the brits in the NGWS.
And that France will get out eventually, but hey, let's not suppose europeans didn't learn their lesson last time right ?

>>34531313
that's the problem when you do not develop a multirole fighter from the beggining. Do you understand why the Rafale happened now ?
Also, there is a twin seater Typhoon, but only as a trainer. Why not develop a twin seater combat version for ground attack then ? Because it would be expensive, and very inferior to what a Tornado can do.
tl;dr : the EF is a failure and needs replacement. The Rafale isn't, and doesn't.

>>34531321
The "gauls" are working actively with the brits on the FCAS/SCAF UCAV. They come from NeuroN/Taranis, they know their shit. And it will be quite something. Believe me. In 2030 there will be stealth ucavs commanded by Rafales and Typhoons (even F-35s maybe) acting as deported sensors and bombtrucks in A2/AD environments where a non stealth fighter would not go, or where there is a danger to lose a pilot or a stealth fighter.

>>34531343
Germany has nothing to bring in this project except money and workers.
They have three options :
>working with the french and swallowing their missplaced pride by accepting Dassault as a project leader.
>buy F-35s and get zero workshare and zero tech transfert from the not so crazy USA, killing their R&D (happened with Lampyridae).
>develop something themselves, which they can't do anymore since they lost the know-how (time has passed since the TKF90 and Lampyridae) and would probably fuck up big time.
watcha gonna do ?

>>34531345
>no more german aerospace industry
great idea from an US standpoint.

>>34531358
no.

>>34532696
you ignored the Meteor missile part?

>>34532696
The Rafale existed started production since 1986 you retard, Su-35 and F-22 didn't exist at that time.
It was best Fighter in the skies for a long time

and now with the F-3 upgrades, it's the best proven eurofighter

>>34532732

>tl;dr : the EF is a failure and needs replacement. The Rafale isn't, and doesn't.

Frog delusion, the post. Funny how the "failure" is the highest selling 4.5th gen fighter on the market and the one you "hold up" is the worst selling, which has several key missing capabilities and no plans to currently sort them.

>>34532744

>The Rafale existed started production since 1986 you retard

Super Hornet was in service 6 years before Rafale, and is superior, so no, the Rafale was not the best when it came in.

>>34532744
>you ignored the Meteor missile part?
Which isn't relevant to the Rafale at the moment?

>It was best Fighter in the skies for a long time
Since you are comparing the F-22 with the Rafale I suppose one could also include the F-15? Which means the Rafale is clearly not the best fighter considering the lack of BVR missiles.

>>34532744

The Rafale is not the fastest, it does not have the highest ceiling, it does not have the best air to ground munitions, it does not have the best A2A missiles, it has a small radar, misses several key munition types, can only carry a single ASM, has no HMD, is wtf tier expensive, can barely supercruise, is not the most agile, does not have the highest AoA, does not have the best ECM, only has a one-way datalink and has very few major FUNDED upgrades to come.

It was, is not, and will never be the best fighter of its generation. Its poor sales reflect this.

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>>34532758
Haha, fucking F-18 superior to the Rafale ?
what kind of Idiot are you?

>>34532766
yeah, let's also ignore the part where F-15 can be detected from max radar range of any plane and Rafale is almost stealthy and better technology at that time and more advanced in everything

>>34532805
>more advanced in everything
Except that it doesn't have any missiles to engage the Eagle with?

>>34532805

>Haha, fucking F-18 superior to the Rafale ?

F/A-18E/F has a much better radar, better AoA, better ECM, VASTLY superior munitions for A2A and A2G, can actually carry more than one ASM at a time, better network connectivity, HMD, is a fuckton cheaper and since you love to throw around the "proven" buzzword, is a shitload more "proven" than the Rafale.

Want to use an ARM? Oops, Rafale doesn't have any.

Want to fire at BVR distance? Oops, Rafale doesn't have anything that can do it.

Want a low collateral munition? Oops, smallest Rafale has is a 250lb bomb, no SDB, JASM or Brimstone type weapon.

Fact is, Super Hornet can do a lot more jobs, is vastly better at A2A due to actually being fucking capable of BVR, and does it all cheaper.

>and Rafale is almost stealthy and better technology at that time and more advanced in everything

The F-15's radar is hugely superior to the Rafale's limp dickl tiny nosecone one. Even then, the Rafale has to get under 50km to even be able to fire at the F-15. Meanwhile the F-15 will just spam AMRAAMs from well over triple that, from a ceiling the Rafale can't even reach.

>inb4 M-MUH SPECTRA

>>34532565
>>34532623
>(you)

>>34531653
>Translation: Germany pays for France to develop an aircraft, all RnD and production happens in france employing French people paying taxes to the French state. Germany then gets to buy some export specification jets with a 40 % markup.

Would be cool for France but you're wrong.
France DOES NOT need a Rafale replacement before 2050.
Germany need a Tornado replacement before 2035.
Germany can't develop an aircraft alone. Capabilities were dilluted in the EF. Why would they seek France either ? They even "threatened" to buy F-35s, aka suicide their R&D.
it's been MONTHS germans are saying the french will develop a plane with them. it's an attempt at scamming France.

Germans are the kings of workshare stealing. Example : they say they will buy 25000 A400M. Waow that's like 99% of the planes ! So surely they need 99% of the workshare right ? jobs, workers, factories etc. Ok they get it, production begins... and BAM they drop their orders to 2,5 planes (one they share with lichtenstein). So now they should not get 99% of workshare, more like 0.9% right ? But how do you move a factory ? how do you relocate a worker ?
You don't.
Congrats you've been german'ed. Enjoy your death march.

Yes, they did this to Airbus, where there are NO MORE french administrators right now. In a company created by french people. Hamburg replaced Toulouse as the place where decisions are made. Merkel did an anschluss on EADS. And countless french production facilities were moved in Germany.

In France when you make another guy do your job, you're a fucking wanker.

In Germany when you make another guy do your job, you're a great manager !

That's what they want here : have Dassault make the thing for them and France buy a shit plane they don't need to replace a plane FRANCE DON'T EVEN USE.

>>34531665
keep going it makes you more stupid.

>>34531679
>The French screwed the Germans and Italians out of the atomic bomb
TOPLEL WTF AM I READING

>>34532805

So, to sum up your arguments:

>The Rafale is the best aircraft, all those other aircraft are only better with upgrades that aren't universally rolled out!
>I'm going to assume that all Rafales already has full Meteor integration and F3R upgrades because hypocrisy doesn't real if you're arrogant enough!

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Remember the other joint projects?
>EU drone - failed
>EU transport plane - failed
>EU marine helicopter - failed
>EU fighter - failed
This is looking good lads!

>>34532873
Never trust a German when money is on the line.

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>>34531183
>equal opportunity laboratory
>full of brown french and germans with literally no schooling or training
>draw plane plans with crayons
>concept modeling in play-doh
>final product isn't even capable of taxiing, let alone "defense and security"

>>34532915
You can add to that list Eurodrone 2.0, fighter 2.0 aaaand the new Leoclerc

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It's another Attempt to copy the F22.
Why cant countries try to come up with something that's not a copy of the Burgers jet

>>34533025
>copy the F-22

Pretty sure it's going to be a multirole fighter rather than an air superiority airframe

>>34533043
It's purpose might be different, but that rendering is a blatant copy of the F22.

>>34533025
>>34533058
Well, if you're going to do something, why not learn from the best?

>>34533058
I reverse searched the image, I don't think it's the actual design

>>34531679
>The French screwed the Germans and Italians out of the atomic bomb that way
you are so full of shit man.

>>34533025
Germany want a bomb truck France do not need. So it won't look like this.
But you're absolutely right and that's also why I'm against this project.
Originality should be preserved. If it's to make a F-35 clone, what's the point ?

>>34531653
Sadly this could happen, but you've forgot to add.
>Germany orders 500 units initialy.
>They cut down their order to half once they receive the first 100s.
>The price baloon, they blame the French.

It happened with the Tornado, it happened with the Typhoon, it happened with the Eurocopter.

France will ask for a navalized version.
Germoney will agree then invite a country like Lelgium or Kekstria that doesn't need a navalized version.
As there are now three countries with no need for a naval plane they'll have power to scrape the aircraft based type.
Dassault will leave, and the cycle will repeat with the next project.

>>34533567
This poster gets it. Oh you forgot they will then proceed to blame the french for not staying. I mean, the french could have scrapped their carrier instead, right ?

>>34533567
>>34533627
Not so sure about that, because even though France is planning to increase its military budget, I don't think they can support a full 5th gen fighter on their own in the near future.

>>34533695
There's very few things France would ask out of this project, full lead on the project was veto'd early on so Dassault will not be able to ask that.

Full production could be asked but Merkel will end up with a share of the workload so they cannot ask for that too hard.

They're left with that option to save face and since they'd be the only one needing them would ask for full prod rights for the naval version.

If this gets killed and Dassault stays they know they'll get phagocyted by Airbus before the first plane roll out of the prod line.

>>34531377
Dassault wont do jet after the rafale, they want to focus on drone they might not be of the party unless theres huge fund from both countries

>>34533025

It's not "copying", it's everyone gradually finding mathematically optimal shapes in aerodynamics.

The further we go in, the more and more alike planes will get.

>>34533025
Lrn 2 Engineering convergence.

>>34533695
>even though France is planning to increase its military budget
Good joke, Macron just went to cut the defense budget and there's no plan to increase it.

>>34532208
It isn't you fucking LARPer. Germany encompasses more than autistic Prussia, half of the culture is based on the Rhine, which was never, and will never be Prussian. Fucking Prussians stole real German culture and degenerated it!
Du Scheiß Pruzze wirst niemals Deutschland sein. Wage es nicht für die deutsche Kultur zu sprechen, du scheiß halb-Pole. Alles an deutscher Kultur wurde in den Rhein-Staaten, Süddeutschland und teilweise Österreich erleistet. Schieß dir in den Kopf und lutsch Wilhelms Schwanz!

>>34534629
>34.2 billions for 2018.
He only cut 850 millions from the budget of 32.7 billions in 2017.

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>>34534629
>yurop

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>>34532722
>Meckerossi

Screw you Wessie that Bundeswehr of yours what a piece of shit

http://www.spiegel.de/einestages/bundeswehr-1971-a-947027.html

>>34534894
Wo kommst ausm Osten? war en paar Jahre in Halle

>>34534846
Alder Junge, sei doch ma nich so kantig

>>34531320
Just like the F-35

>>34534932
Ja hab wohl überzogen, mich nervts halt, wenn man deutsche Kultur mit der preußischen gleichsetzt, ist doch viel mehr dran..sry hab en bisschen überreagiert

>>34533025
>it's another attempt to copy the Lee Enfield.
>why can't countries try to come up with something that's not a copy of the bongs rifle

>>34534924
>Wo kommst ausm Osten? war en paar Jahre in Halle

Cottbus

>>34532918
Yeah best trust a filthy Anglo animal a fucking rat has more decency.

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>>34534969
Alles in Ordnung Bernd, hier hab ne Kadse

>>34531643
And this is definitely not the system price. If you switch to a completely new platform there are many additional things to consider (training, simulators, spare parts, munitions) which cost additional money.

I'd really wish people would stop comparing the price per plane right from the factory with the full system prices.

>>34534857
>only 850 millions
Still not an improvement, and it will be more like around 1 billion, in order to reduce the " budget deficit" (guy is a banker...). Also he publicly said he wants to move the defense into a EU army, which does not really compute with an increasment of the French defense.

>>34534999
Never been to Cottbus, how is it there? Would you recommend a visit?

>>34534943
except they are 4.5gen but cost almost as much as an f22 and twice asmuch as an f-35.

also
>be had to put a fake gun in it so we could keep weight balance but we decided we can't afford a real gun or ammo

>>34535053
So tell me, mr fighter aircraft expert, what does 4.5 gen mean exactly? Since LM made the term up to sell their F-35s, of course no other aircraft are gen 5...

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>>34535028
Danke Dirk, hab en /his/ meme

>>34535052
Well it's a university city so you kind of know what to expect standard fare but we got http://www.flugplatzmuseumcottbus.de/

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>>34535053
>typhoon = 102 mil dollars\90 million euros
>F-35 = 122 mil dollars\ 107 million euros
>Typhoon can beat F-16 in dogfight
>F-35 can't
>Typhoon introduced into service in 2003
>F-35 still in trials

The F-35 is a huge financial military blunder, completely affloat to put money into politicians pockets. The Typhoon has seen combat, works, and has proven effective. The F-35 failed to beat a 70's aircraft.

>>34534857

It's still lower than even just ten years ago, and a fraction of the French budget for most of the Rafale's development period in the 80s & 90s. Maturing 5th gen technology is potentially more expensive than the Rafale & Eurofighter development, as the F-35 has shown.

>>34535160

Please, update your bait, all three of the "facts" (price, vs F-16, operational service) are out of date. Besides, 2/4 of the Euro-fighter partners are buying the F-35 (UK & Italy), another (Germany) is considering it, and the last (Spain) is too broke to really be thinking about major fighter jet procurement any time soon anyway. Eurofighter & F-35 are complementary aircraft, not competing.

>>34535160

Coming from someone who believes in the Typhoon highly, stop trying to bait them you fucking moron.

Either that or you're a Frog who's trying to push the wedge knowing that F-35/Typhoon is the high end combo both your neighbours are going to be using in excess of France not having 5th gens.

>>34532565
>Raptor coughs in your general direction.

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>>34535234
>2/4 of the Euro-fighter partners are buying the F-35 (UK & Italy), another (Germany) is considering it
>BUY IT OR ELSE...
This kind of business has very little to do with actual needs or product quality, you know.

>>34535089
the term fighter generation has existed since the 80's educate yourself idiot

>>34535234
don't fall for it typhooncuck is just baiting at this point. he can't even list actual prices without falsifying them to suit his biases

>>34535458
Its a retarded and arbitrary term, and there are no set standards as to what makes an aircraft generation X. It's the military equivalent to buzzfeed articles.

We may disagree on everything but one thing.
Dassault needs to be the one drawing the plane.

I want a sexy super Rafale, sorry Typhoon but you look like shit.

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>>34535673
Resurrect him Krauts