two questions

>>34524305
Nato, and no.

1.Separatists
2.Yes

>>34524319
>being this wrong

>>34524313
How is that possible? Ukraine is not part of NATO. Western Europe can't even protect itself. Americans love sitting in their comfort zone so much that they wouldn't dare attack any country that wasn't already extremely poor and vulnerable.

>>34524305
We'll first have to see how long this drags out for, good possibility that Ukraine collapses economically and is forced to fall back into Russian sphere.

If push comes to shove Russia will win a fight over Ukraine and neither the US or the EU would be willing to go to war over that issue, but that will undoubtedly lead to heavy sanctions and other measures being taken that will most likely mean that Russia loses out on the long term.

Don't count on big things happening anytime soon, and even then the most likely is some sort of compromise where Donbas is reunited with Ukraine and used to shut down any moves towards nato.

>>34524305
There are no winners except oligarkhs in this war
No since Russia doesn't want them

>>34524500
Because they want to join and its not like Russia can actually stop them.

Americans don't actually care, they like making money but they love making money off war.

And now they don't have to worry about a soviet response.

Ukrop.

No.

>>34524693
>We'll first have to see how long this drags out for, good possibility that Ukraine collapses economically and is forced to fall back into Russian sphere.
They already have collapsed economically, especially the rebel territories.
>>34524693
>If push comes to shove Russia will win a fight over Ukraine and neither the US or the EU would be willing to go to war over that issue, but that will undoubtedly lead to heavy sanctions and other measures being taken that will most likely mean that Russia loses out on the long term.
Russia doesn't care about embargoes. They are economically self sufficient as long as they can trade with central Asia.
>>34524768
>Because they want to join and its not like Russia can actually stop them.
I believe NATO does not accept countries that have active border disputes, which Ukraine does as long as they have a civil war. Even if Ukraine did join, NATO is unwilling to actually do anything. Western Europe and the USA are crumbling from within. They would rather spend money on gibsmedat than on a war.
>>34524768
>Americans don't actually care, they like making money but they love making money off war.
War isn't profitable, especially not when it's fought in a country that is not a major trade partner.
>>34524768
>And now they don't have to worry about a soviet response.
Nuclear annihilation is still a possibility.

>>34524305
Russia already sold out rebels.

>>34524305
>1. Who will win the Ukrainian civil war?
Ukraine will probably try to wait them out and win. I don't see a scenario where the separatists actually win, unless they somehow get a pro-peace president elected in Kyiv that's willing to settle.

>2. If the separatists win, will they become part of Russia?
No. Integrating those republics into Russia would be more politically toxic than them annexing the Crimera. At the very best, they could negotiate some sort of sovereignty-association deal with Russia similar to what Quebec has with Canada.

>>34524305
>1. Who will win the Ukrainian civil war?
US and NATO

Russia doesn't have the economy to engage in Syria and Ukraine

>>34528168
>Russia doesn't have the economy to engage in Syria and Ukraine
Neither does the USA. America is deep in debt, has crumbling infrastructure, and is spending the majority of its budget on gibsmedat. Cutting gibsmedat to fund a war in Ukraine would be political suicide for any US President or Congressman. Russians, on the other hand, are hardy people used to privation and struggle. They can persevere through seemingly insurmountable hardship in a way that Americans have never experienced.

>>34528295
>Cutting gibsmedat to fund a war in Ukraine would be political suicide for any US
the US isn't funding a war in ukraine, russia is

>>34524305
1. Nobody. Donbass will remain a wartorn shithole and Ukraine will remain a paranoid wartorn shithole with no friends.
2. No, at least not for the next decade.

>>34528345
Yeah, that was my point. The US will not dare send troops into Ukraine. It would be political suicide. Instead, the USA will continue to wage pointless wars in durka derka countries until the American economy is too feeble to support force projection.

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>>34524305
NATO will in the long run, but I suspect will be along time before Ukraine, NATO and Russia can agree on peace terms and what goes to who. I dont see this ending in 20 years desu. It's such a stalemate that no one is making any real progress.

>>34528429
>Yeah, that was my point. The US will not dare send troops into Ukraine
the US won't send troops because it doesn't enough care enough to, Ukraine is not part NATO, but Ukraine sovereignty should be supported by all governments

>>34528429
The US justy sent ranger (could have been another special forces unit, correct me if I'm wrong) to Ukraine to train Ukie soldiers. Canada has been doing so for years now. NATO is very involved in the war just not directly. Imagine the Lend lease deal the US had with the British from WWII. NATO gives supplies and training to Ukraine. Ukraine does the actual fighting.

>>34528477
Now wait just a darn minute there. The USA loves to say that people have a right to "self-determination." They said that when Clinton bombed the Serbs for trying to maintain their sovereignty over Kosovo. So according to America, Muslims in Kosovo have a right to self-determination, but Russians in Donbas don't? Sounds like some good old fashioned American hypocrisy to me.

>>34528475
>NATO and Russia can agree on peace terms and what goes to who
Why would NATO even be part of it? Russia doesn't give a damn what NATO thinks, and Ukraine isn't part of NATO.

>>34528511
Giving them weapons is very different from actually fighting a war for them. America gives weapons to ISIS too, but America is unlikely to fight a war for ISIS.

>>34528544
>Serbs for trying to maintain their sovereignty over Kosovo
you mean wall to wall ethnic cleansing and genocide?

>>34528477
>Ukraine sovereignty should be supported by all governments
Found a hohol.

>>34528677
>implying the Muslims haven't been doing that to Serbs for more than 1000 years.
If America really cared about genocide, why didn't they say anything about the farm murders in Rhodesia? If America cares about "human rights," why do they support Saudi Arabia?

>>34528720
because the rhodies were trying to install their own version of the Reich

>>34528732
>implying Rhodesia wasn't the freest and most prosperous country in southern Africa
Nice try, Mugabe.

>>34528757
there's a reason that no European country supported them and their BS

>>34528768
And that reason was that the USSR and its communist sympathizers in the West threw Rhodesia under the bus.

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>>34528544
>Why would NATO care?
Ukraine VERY MUCH wants to be part of NATO and NATO is intrested in let them in. They just dont want to jump the gun and let them in and all the sudden have Russia do something that require NATO to take much more direct action. Whether Ukraine is part of NATO by the time the war ends or not NATO will have a voice in the discussions. Directly or not.
Pic unrelated.

>>34528565
Thats a fair point and I see where you're coming from, but this is a bit diffrent as they view Ukraine as more of an Ally. Like I said, Imagine a modern day version of the lend lease program albeit it's all of NATO (well most) and not just the US.

>>34528810
>Ukraine VERY MUCH wants to be part of NATO
Who goves a shit what Ukraine wants?
>and NATO is intrested in let them in
Yeah, right, about as much as Georgia.
>NATO will have a voice in the discussions
No, it will not.

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>>34528840
t. vodka nigger

>>34528810
>Ukraine VERY MUCH wants to be part of NATO
Then why haven't they joined already? They've been independent for more than 20 years.

>>34528810
>They just dont want to jump the gun and let them in and all the sudden have Russia do something that require NATO to take much more direct action
You mean like Russia didn't do when Poland and the Baltic states illegally joined NATO, even though NATO was not supposed to expand one inch each after Germany reunited.
>>34528832
>'s all of NATO (well most) and not just the US.
Unlikely. Western Europe is too busy giving gibsmedats to African and Middle Eastern immigrants, and eastern Europe is still too poor to give much to Ukraine. America is the only country that could support Ukraine, but even then, only with equipment, not manpower.
>>34528926
>Implying hohli aren't just as alcoholic as Russians
>implying Americans don't get bombed out on drugs even worse than alcohol

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>>34528840
>>34528926
kinda right, Ukraine has a terrible economy, rampant corruption, and is also going through an HIV/AIDS outbreak as well, it's the same reasons why it hasn't made it into the EU

>>34524305
Both sides won and lost. Both gained back land they lost and both lost land they had. Russia won and lost. Ukraine mostly lost but was able to take back half of the land lost and hold the Russian forces back.

The separatists are basically Russia now. It's a puppet state that is entirely funded and armed by Russia. They can't join Russia because of sanctions and because of MH17. One day they might but that's like in +10 years. This conflict has been extremely costly for Ukraine but also for Russia.

If this thread is still here in the morning I'll go more into it.

>>34528980
May I remind you that America has also shot down passenger airlines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

>>34529036
>May I remind you that America has also shot down passenger airlines.
And the US admitted what it did was wrong, Russia will never admit it accidentally shot down Malaysia Flight 17

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17#Reactions

>>34529154
That's because Russia didn't shoot it down. They admitted the actual airliners they shot. The honour of shooting this one belongs to Ukraine.

>>34529203
Ukrainians didn't bother with anti air because rebels barely even had aircraft.

Dumb ruskies fucked up and shot it down, because they already shot down a whole mess of Ukrainian aircraft during the same month.

Don't be a pathetic lying bitch and just be smug you got to kill a bunch of nato pig dogs while fighting for some shitty ukrop land.

>>34529306
>Ukrainians didn't bother with anti air because rebels barely even had aircraft.
Citation needed.

>>34529306
>Dumb ruskies fucked up and shot it down
Even if true, you don't fly a passenger airliners over an active fucking warzone. That was just stupid on the part of the airline.

>>34529659
>Even if true, you don't fly a passenger airliners over an active fucking warzone. That was just stupid on the part of the airline.

Never said the Ukies were smart son, I believe they take partial credit for it too.

But ruskies fired the buks to shoot ukrainian aircraft down. Just like how they shot down the ukie mig-29 with buks too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ukrainian_aircraft_losses_during_the_Ukrainian_crisis


So don't pull that citation needed crap, because YOU have to prove that the rebels did fly aircraft regularly along with the russian air force and actually had any aircraft shot down by ukrainian buks too.

Us Americans don't set up antiaircraft batteries in Afghanistan to shoot down taliban jet fighters, so don't bother trying to deny it.

You won in Ukraine, just accept the credit (and possibly the consequences later on).

>>34529708
They've had multiple aircraft shot down by Ukrainians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_used_by_separatist_forces_of_the_war_in_Donbass#Unmanned_Aerial_Vehicles

>>34529708
>You won in Ukraine, just accept the credit (and possibly the consequences later on).
>This is what vatniks believe
Meanwhile, their economy in shambles, reputation absolutely destroyed and 1st world countries don't want to do anything with them. Meanwhile, all their friendly a-la Ukraine countries already on the lookout to jump from sinking ship. Belarus is going to be next.
They """"won"""", my ass.

>>34524305

Russia has no interest in winning the war, it wants a 'frozen conflict' like in Georgia or Transnistria to create a perpetual dispute that scares off other countries from getting involved. In that sense it's going swimmingly for them.

>>34529901
>1st world countries don't want to do anything with them
Western Europe won't be first world for very long anyway. It will be all allahu akhbar. America has some hope for the future.
>>34529901
>their economy in shambles
Not really. It's been much worse.
>>34529901
>reputation absolutely destroyed
What reputation? Among whom? Far more people worldwide consider America to be a threat to international security than Russia.

>>34529913
Well, all the Georgians have to do is recognize independence of tiny Abkhazia, and then there will be no conflict. Is that so hard to do?

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>>34529916
>Western Europe won't be first world for very long anyway. It will be all allahu akhbar.
Sorry, but I don't see how few migrants are going to ruin Europe. Yes, it's not going to be pretty and peaceful like before, but it's clearly not enough to destroy powerful European countries. Crime rates will rise, random minor terror acts here and there, but nothing too fatal. It's not like Syria and etc are going to be war zones for forever.
>Not really. It's been much worse.
Alright, 90's were worse, but do you really believe Russians are long in this world when every western country specifically tries to cut ties with their petroleum industry and look out for alternative sources? And West will work together to further ruin economical situation in Russia. Let's starve them out, maybe these niggers will finally realise that tanks and AK's are not edible.
>What reputation?
One that secures trade deals and eases tensions between countries so they wouldn't spend so much on defence industry? What if some catastrophe happens in Russia, nobody from West will lend them a hand. Their reputation is RUINED. 90% countries worth a time are completely hostile to Russia now.

If they consider America to be a threat, they clearly stupid because America is what keeps the world in the current longest era of peace. And Russia wants to ruin it.

>>34529972

" 90% countries worth a time are completely hostile to Russia now."

Sigh, I hate to break it to you.....

Most European countries mantain sanctions 'cause US\NATO orders it. Sanctions are bad for EU economies, and even in my shit country we get every month or so some politicians going off the rails with "shouldn't we stop this nonsense".

But after all, we are American puppets. If the plan was to ruin Ukraine as a fuck you to Russia, it was very effective: the poor Ukies are running towards becoming a Africa-tier nation with utmost efficiency. It won't get better, the EU has no resources to help the rebuilding of a corrupt hellhole (see how it can't help even countries like Greece or Bulgaria).

But after all, it's a shit war were the only winners are fascist oligarchs. On both sides. One can only weep.

The second Russia stops supporting them, they'll get rolled over. And Russia can't waste money on them forever.

>>34530021
God, you are retarded.

I know you probably get paid for this, but put at least some effort into your shilling.

>>34530110
>If they consider America to be a threat, they clearly stupid because America is what keeps the world in the current longest era of peace. And Russia wants to ruin it.

Hmmm, I wonder who the paid shill is here. 0.50 hillary dollars have been deposited to your account.

Ukraine isn't even a real country. Why not do this: divide the country in two and give the eastern half to Russia and the western half to Poland.

>>34529306
>Dumb hohols fucked up
Ftfy.
>Don't be a pathetic lying bitch
Follow your own advice.

>>34529708
>But hohols fired the buks
Ftfy. Or wait, are you thereby willing to admit hohols as a nation do not exist?

>>34524305

1. It`s pretty much over. No good/bad guys and no victors.

2. We have our own problems so hell no. I can only hope Ukraine will manage to not fuck everything up again.

>>34524305
It will be same as with Georgia.

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>>34530329

It`s not that bad of an idea. But afrer that this will happen.

>Poland isn't even a real country. Why not do this: divide the country in two and give the eastern half to Russia and the western half to Germany.

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>>34530585
That's not a bad idea either.

Porky is on his way out. With a little luck, someone who's not a retard will take over and this mess will end.

Life isnt a shitposting thread

>>34530599
No, ukrainians will have another maidan. Again.

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>>34530592

Hell no. Poland is a very nice place. I don`t want it to be cucked by modern Germans and filled with rapefugees from one side and fucked up by corrupted and Incompetent government of my Poдинa from another.

>>34524305
1. The separatists either stay in independence limbo, like they are now, or eventually reintegrate as autonomous regions.

2. De jure - I don't think so
de facto - yea

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>>34530599

The idea that Ukraine would happily "rejoin" Russia after Russia literally invaded and annexed a part of the country is delusional.
It's time to stop watching Rossija24, it's warping your perception of reality.

>>34528947
>Then why haven't they joined already? They've been independent for more than 20 years

Because only 5 years ago they thought themselves as friends of russia.
Unfortunately for Ukraine, russia has no friends, only subjects, and as soon as Ukraine deviated slightly from the kreml line, putin yanked the cords of his puppet in Kiev and the whole thing blew up.
Too late to join NATO at that point.

>>34531593

>Because only 5 years ago they thought themselves as friends of russia.

You don`t know shit about Ukraine/Russia relationship, mate.

>>34531518
>Russia literally invaded
It literally didn't, since it is impossible to invade a place where your military has been stationed for literal centuries.
>and annexed
More like accessed.
>a part of the country
Not really, Crimea is a part of Russia that only tolerated being de jure connected to Ukraine as an Autonomous Republic as long as Ukraine was a Soviet Socialist Republic in the Soviet Union. During the collapse of the USSR they showed their intentions with clarity:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_sovereignty_referendum,_1991
And then again:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_referendum,_1994
These were of course suppressed by cockholes from Kiev. Despite that, the intention remained clear for all subsequent years:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014#Polling
Until in 2014 shit happening in Kiev forced Russia to secure its military assets stationed in Crimea for literal centuries, which prompted Crimeans to try to free themselves from Ukraine once again. Fortunately with Kiev devastated in an oligarch coup and Russia securing its military bases from possible cockhole aggression based on the events in Kiev, they were successful and finally .

>>34531593
>Because only 5 years ago they thought themselves as friends of russia.
American "education".

>>34531625
>we wuz mortal enemies all along!
Having large parts of your strategic military manufacturing and literary gifting a significant part of land is something you sure do to your mortal enemy.
Up until Euromaidain russia and Ukraine was friends, at least on a political level.
Russia being completely retarded at politics fucked that up.

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>>34531775
>Reductio ad absurdum
American "argument". Learn about 2004.

>>34531818
>Learn about 2004
Events funded by the US, Soros, EU et al. totally against the will of the people of Ukraine if russian media was to be believed.
Guess russians where false sacks of shit all along and the people did genuinely want to boot the russian oppressors out and the election was really stolen by the russians and their puppets.

>>34531905
>Passive-aggressive puke instead of a response
I smell cockhole spirit.

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>>34531726

You didn't adress what i was trying to say and what i was disagreeing with you on.
That being the following question:
Do you really think that if it wasn't for the current leadership of Ukraine, Ukrainians would happily realign themselves with Russia?

>>34532055
They would, but there is too much blood at this point.

So never. Russians are really stupid and created Poland 2.0 from nothing.

>>34531977
>point out how russian narrative flip-flops all over the place, russian news being Orwellian propaganda made to fit the narrative of kreml
>get ad hominem in return
GG EZ vatnik

>>34532055
You wasn't talking to me.
>Do you really think that if it wasn't for the current leadership of Ukraine, Ukrainians would happily realign themselves with Russia?
Yes. Proof: see the results of 1991 Soviet Union referendum.
>>34532063
Ukraine was always the second Poland, and an even more pretentious one, since unlike Poland it is a made up country with made up identity.
>>34532083
>Not being friends = being mortal enemies
>Gets passive aggressive when pointed at 2004
Cockhole projections.

>>34532188
So what's next? I guess Belarus are going down the same way too? Kazakhstan after them?

Is it really some meddling of foreign powers or just Russians are bad at whole friendship thing? Why everybody stabs them the first opportunity they get?

Really makes you think.

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>>34529036
here we go again

>>34528544
>Russians in Donbas don't? Sounds like some good old fashioned American hypocrisy to me.

See the thing is, the 'russians' in donbass weren't ethnic russians, they were russian soldiers sent there in gunships.

>>34532188
>Proof: see the results of 1991 Soviet Union referendum.
So, nothing has changed in 26 years? I'll use favorite russian argument: SHOW PROOFS!

>>34532349
>if it wasn't for the current leadership of Ukraine
>So, nothing has changed
Are you mentally challenged?

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>>34529306
>>34529659
>>34529708
The Ukranians do have anti air assets in use. The Ukranians never moved their BUKs into the range of being able to shoot down MH17. The Russians did move systems like BUK, TOR and Pantsir s1 into Eastern Ukraine to shoot down the Ukranian Air force, I can post pictures if you would like. The Ukranians had air defense because it was a real possibility that the Russians would use aircraft to help the seperatists. The Russians are also supplying a larg number of drones, I can post pictures of this as well. Earlier this year the Ukranians did shoot down a Russian drone over Donetsk with a BUK.

At this point you woul have to be completely retared or some RIDF shill to believe Russia didn't shoot down MH-17. It's austonishing we are still having this coversation 3 years in. I could understand /pol/ doing shit like this but not /k/.

>>34531726
>It literally didn't, since it is impossible to invade a place where your military has been stationed for literal centuries.

I can't imagine being this retarded.

>>34532397
>At this point you would have to be completely retarded or some iArmy shill to believe Ukraine didn't shoot down MH-17

The separatists have already won, though. Ukraine is just bleeding itself dry bashing it's head against a wall, not realizing that at this point it's set in stone.

>>34532188

>Yes. Proof: see the results of 1991 Soviet Union referendum.

The Soviet Union wasn't Russia. Or at least it wasn't supposed to be...
The fact that you would even bring this up just goes to show how the Soviet Union was really just a Russian Empire under a different name.

But in the end i think your assumption is wrong, Ukrainians have said goodbye to Russia.

https://youtu.be/4H3oeRutHpk

>>34532416
Russian military was stationed there for centuries and was free to move its assets. Crimea is Russian. Crimeans have never wanted to be a part of Ukraine. Deal with it.

>>34532448
>The Soviet Union wasn't Russia
Soviet Union was a union of Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Transcaucasia. 1991 Soviet Union referendum shows that Ukraine was very much in favour of signing a renovated treaty with Russia and remaining in one Union. Your lack of argument is invalid.

>>34532502
>1991
But it's 2017 now. The majority of Ukies already despise and hate Russia.

Literally one of the rallying points of Maidan was to "Fuck Russia", "Kill Russian" and etc.

>>34524500
>already extremely poor and vulnerable.
You're already demonstrating your poor geopolitical knowledge.

US didn't invade Iraq for the fun of it. US/NATO didn't target Libya because it was an easy target. It's called securing national security interests. I.e. oil. Whether you believe it's right or wrong doesn't apply.

If a gas pipeline is built go through Syria from SA/Qatar, Europe will no longer be dependent on Russia. Why do you think Russia is toe-to-toe with the West in Syria? It just so happens to be that Qatar and Iran share the largest natural gas reserve in the world.

There's a much larger picture at hand.

>>34532502
Don't even try to reason with the vatnik. These Russocentrists will do everything they can to distance them and Putin's regime from the USSR.

But when it comes to celebrating past Soviet victories and achievements, they are just happy as can be. Why do you think conservatives and communists in Russia get along so well? Most are nationalists at heart.

>>34529972
>but I don't see how few migrants are going to ruin Europe
They are few now, but their number is growing by the day. Meanwhile, white populations in Europe are ageing and dying off.
>>34529972
>Alright, 90's were worse, but do you really believe Russians are long in this world when every western country specifically tries to cut ties with their petroleum industry and look out for alternative sources? And West will work together to further ruin economical situation in Russia. Let's starve them out, maybe these niggers will finally realise that tanks and AK's are not edible.
Not going to work. Russia is economically self sufficient.
>>34529972
>If they consider America to be a threat, they clearly stupid because America is what keeps the world in the current longest era of peace. And Russia wants to ruin it.
Wrong. America wages wars of aggression all over the world. Russia does not. Russia respects other countries sovereignty.
>>34530045
>Russia can't waste money on them forever.
Neither can Ukraine, and Ukraine's economy is far worse than Russia's. The longer the war drags on, the less likely Ukraine is to win.
>>34530329
Western Ukrainians don't want to be part of Poland.
>>34531518
You mean Crimea, which was Russian for centuries before being transferred in the 1950s by a communist dictator?
>>34531593
>putin yanked the cords of his puppet in Kiev
More like Ukrainian people did because Yanukovich was super corrupt.
>>34532344
Wrong. Eastern Ukraine has been full of ethnic Russians for centuries.
>>34532724
Red herring. Regardless of America's reasons for their wars of aggression, they only attack third world countries. They wouldn't dare pick on someone their own size.
>>34532736
The Soviet Union was very different from modern Russia. Russia is no longer an imperialist power. Russia respects national sovereignty.

>>34524343
>being this globalist

>>34532967
Ukraine has europe and US money though, Russia doesn't.

>>34532967
So you talk about respecting the sovereignty and yet they took Crimea and support rebels in Donbass. What's up with that?

>>34532967

>They are few now, but their number is growing by the day. Meanwhile, white populations in Europe are ageing and dying off.
Russia has more Muslims than any western European country, in relative and in absolute terms. Also Russian demographics are arguably much worse.

>Not going to work. Russia is economically self sufficient.
Not really. For example you dindn't order the Mistral ships in France just for shits and giggles, you did so because your domestic shipyards were and are incapable of building them.
The same thing is true for the marine gas turbines that Ukraine stopped selling to you. I'm sure there are many other such examples.

>Wrong. America wages wars of aggression all over the world. Russia does not. Russia respects other countries sovereignty.
Unlike Russia that only wages wars of brotherly love on it's neighbours. How is that "respecting other countries sovereignty"?

>Russia is no longer an imperialist power. Russia respects national sovereignty.
This is pure comedy. How anyone can say this with a straight face is beyond me.

>>34533010
Crimea had always been part of Russia before a communist dictator transferred it to Ukraine in the 1950s. Also, Crimeans wanted to rejoin Russia. As for the rebels in Donbas, they would consider themselves sovereign.
>>34533145
>Russia has more Muslims than any western European country, in relative and in absolute terms. Also Russian demographics are arguably much worse.
Yeah, but Russia has had them for 800 years. They know how to deal with them. Europeans, on the other hand, let Africans and Middle Easterners run wild. They are pretty much handing their countries over to them.
>>34533145
>Not really. For example you dindn't order the Mistral ships in France just for shits and giggles, you did so because your domestic shipyards were and are incapable of building them.
>The same thing is true for the marine gas turbines that Ukraine stopped selling to you. I'm sure there are many other such examples.
I'm not Russian. Russia has all the natural and human resources to build all that stuff if they really had to.
>>34533145
>Unlike Russia that only wages wars of brotherly love on it's neighbours. How is that "respecting other countries sovereignty"?
Name one such war. Crimea peacefully and voluntarily joined Russia, and the war in Georgia was to protect Abkhazia, which is, like Novorossiya, an unrecognized but independent state. Saying Donbas is part of Ukraine is like saying America is still part of Britain.
>>34533145
>This is pure comedy. How anyone can say this with a straight face is beyond me.
Because it's true. Prove otherwise.

>>34532991
>Ukrainian oligarchs have European and US money
Ftfy.

>>34532188
1991 referandum has nothing to with reality that exists now. The reality that exists now is that Russian mercenaries & "volunteers" along Russian-minded separatists have now been killing family members of Ukrainians, both soldiers and civilians, for over THREE YEARS now. Ukraine has universal compulsory military service, hence families are sending their sons to military all the time and war means they could end up to combat and possibly get killed any day. What is also happening in Ukraine is that friends & family members of those killed this far are volunteering to revenge. Ukraine will never voluntary join to Russia after this.

>>34530529
Wrong. You have no proofs and the rest of the world thinks you shot it down regardless of if its true or not.

NATO and Trump won. Now go back and suck Trump's dick so you don't have to run like bitches in Syria from our cruise missiles lol.

>>34533900
It is true that this late war has made Ukrainians hate Russians, but the flip side is also true. This generation of people in eastern Ukraine has seen so much hardship and bloodshed that they will never accept Ukrainian rule.
>>34533926
>NATO and Trump won
No. You can't win a war that you are not a part of.
>>34533926
>Syria
You are unironically supporting ISIS.

Russia is already fucking up Ukraines shit

>>34533985

>You are unironically supporting ISIS.
Russia is primarily fighting the other rebels, not ISIS.
That's why the US-supported SDF are the ones who are liberating Raqqa and not the SAA. In almost 2 years of intervention the biggest victory the Russians have celebrated against ISIS is taking back Palmyra, an irrelevant little town in the middle of nowhere.

1.Nobody
2. No at best it will be a buffer state

>>34533985
>unironically supporting isis when our proxies are literally taking over their capital.

If you dumb ruskies didn't give isis all the time in the world to rebuild to bomb other jihadists then maybe you wouldn't have lost palmyra and lost some of your spetsnaz lol. Or your stupid jet getting btfo by fucking turks too.

And now your Putin can't stop sucking off Erdogan's jihadi loving cock, because you have almost no allies. Whenever he has free time from kissing Trump's ass too (oh we never hacked, Trump is so great, pls let us work with you in Syria).

God it is glorious how you think you could turn America under Trump into your puppet but instead the opposite has happened.

>>34534030
>SDF
>liberating Raqqa
>implying the Kurds don't just want to take it for themselves
>>34534051
>Putin can't stop sucking off Erdogan's jihadi loving cock
Not true.
>>34534051
>ruskies didn't give isis all the time in the world to rebuild
At least Russia isn't actively supporting them with money and weapons, like America did under Obama.

>>34532532
>if it wasn't for the current leadership of Ukraine
>it's 2017 now
Are you mentally challenged?
>>34532736
This damage control, this passive-aggressive stance. Found another hohol.
>>34533900
>if it wasn't for the current leadership of Ukraine
>reality that exists now
Are you mentally challenged?
>The reality that exists now is that pro-Russian hohols, Russian volunteers, pro-Ukrainian hohols and hohol nazis have been killing each other, looting, killing civilians and generally causing a humanitarian catastrophe that retarded oligarch hohol government is incapable of resolving.
>What is also happening in Ukraine is that friends & family members of those killed this far are volunteering to revenge
What is really happening in Ukraine is that 95% of the country male population is hiding from conscripting, since as the time goes even hohols realise only a complete fucking retard is going to die for interests of oligarchs in power.
>Ukraine will never voluntary join to Russia after this.
Bitch millennial nigger, learn history.
>>34533926
No proofs of what? Airliner was shot down way inside Ukrainian territory from Ukrainian territory by hohols.
>the rest of the world thinks you shot it down regardless of if its true or not
What the rest of the world thinks regardless of truth is irrelevant.
>NATO and Trump won
Who controls Aleppo? Say the line, shill.
>Now go back and suck Trump's dick
Why? I'm not some bitch ass amerishit nigger who had to vote for a fucking Zhirinovsky equivalent to prove a point of how tired he is of surveillance probe up his ass all the way.
>>34534030
>Russia is primarily fighting the other terrorists, not terrorists.
You aren't making any sense.

>You mean like Russia didn't do when Poland and the Baltic states illegally joined NATO, even though NATO was not supposed to expand one inch each after Germany reunited.

You might actually be autistic.

>>34535517
Meant for >>34528947

>>34530110
No it's true a lot of Southern and Eastern EU members are buttblasted because Russia was a major importer of their fruit,vegetables etc. Poland is freaking running a smuggling operation in Belarus rebranding their apples as Belarussian

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>>34528947

>You mean like Russia didn't do when Poland and the Baltic states illegally joined NATO, even though NATO was not supposed to expand one inch each after Germany reunited.

There is no legally binding international treaty or agreement that makes NATO's expansion illegal.
But if such a document really does exist feel free to provide us with a link to its text.

>>34535517
>>34535913
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-shifrinson-russia-us-nato-deal--20160530-snap-story.html

>>34528947
>You mean like Russia didn't do when Poland and the Baltic states illegally joined NATO, even though NATO was not supposed to expand one inch each after Germany reunited.

Those ungrateful ex-Warsaw Pact bastards, how dare they exercise their own sovereignty and choose their own preferred alignments, after all glorious Mother Russia did for them? Why should anyone give a toss what they say, it's not like most of these Former Soviet Citizens are even in real countries anyway.

>>34528947
>what is national sovereignty

>what is the right of a nation to join a defense alliance

>Russian damage control.

>>34536352

Y'know vatnik, if you didn't want your former vassal states to puncture your sphere of influence, maybe you shouldn't have subjected them to 45 years of military occupation, political repression, and economic strip-mining. Just sayin'.

>>34536365
>exercise their own sovereignty
If they wanted sovereignty, they would stay out of NATO to avoid American influence. Be that as it may, I don't blame Polacks and Balts for joining NATO. I DO blame NATO for accepting them after promising "not one inch east."

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-shifrinson-russia-us-nato-deal--20160530-snap-story.html

>>34528477
Ok Triple Entente, do you want another WWI?

>>34536395
Then you're an idiot, they have a right to join a defense alliance if they want, and presuming that NATO is even close to what they had to deal with the USSR is hilarious.

Literally all they have to do is train and fund their military.

You also really can't blame NATO for preparing for the worst, the Russian Federation was/is chaotic as shit.

>>34536389
>political repression
You mean like the Belgians and the Greeks did when they arrested the Vlaams Blok and Golden Dawn on trumped up charges because they couldn't accept the fact that those parties actually had support from the voters? Such hypocrisy!
>>34536387
>what is national sovereignty
Something you give up when you join NATO and the EU.

>>34536421
Meanwhile Poland has retained its national sovereignty and told the EU to fuck off.

>trumped up charges against golden dawn

I mean, even if you were right that's a domestic political issue, and NATO literally can't intervene unless the country falls apart. But those charges weren't false, nor trumped up, this isn't pol.

>>34536415
>they have a right to join a defense alliance if they want
Not if that alliance already promised not to expand further east.
>>34536415
>and presuming that NATO is even close to what they had to deal with the USSR is hilarious.
I never said that. You are making a strawman argument.
>>34536407
WW1 is no longer relevant. The Brits don't have an empire anymore, and America can't afford a large, sustained war without cutting their gibsmedat programs, which would be very unpopular.

>>34536352

You linked an opinion piece, not a treaty text.
My argument still stands, there is no treaty or agreement against NATO expansion.
Verbal reassurances are not legally binding and even so they were only ever given to a subject of international law that seized to exist on 25 December 1991.

>>34536421
>You mean like the Belgians and the Greeks did when they arrested the Vlaams Blok and Golden Dawn

Ah, vintage whataboutery.

>>34536470
>not citing any treaty text that confirms your statement.

>claiming strawman when you did actually equate the USSR to NATO.

tovarish, stop.

>>34536473
>subject of international law that seized to exist on 25 December 1991.
First you blame Russia for what the Soviet Union (which was ruled by a Georgian, some Ukrainians, and a bunch of Jews, not ethnic Russians) did. Now you admit that Russia is not the USSR. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.
>>34536491
>claiming strawman when you did actually equate the USSR to NATO
No, I never did that. Show me where I did.
>>34536488
Well, I'm not the one who first mentioned "political repression." I just pointed out that America isn't bothered by it when NATO members are doing it. They just use it as a pretext for blaming Russia.
>>34536491
To be fair, it may not have been in an actual treaty--I would have to read the Treaty on the Final Settlement of Germany to be sure--but a promise is a promise. For a diplomat to say one thing and then do another is playing dirty pool.

>According to transcripts of meetings in Moscow on Feb. 9, then-Secretary of State James Baker suggested that in exchange for cooperation on Germany, U.S. could make “iron-clad guarantees” that NATO would not expand “one inch eastward.” Less than a week later, Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev agreed to begin reunification talks. No formal deal was struck, but from all the evidence, the quid pro quo was clear: Gorbachev acceded to Germany’s western alignment and the U.S. would limit NATO’s expansion.

>>34536470
>Not if that alliance already promised not to expand further east.
Ah, the myth of the precognicent politburo who knew the future, that's a good one.
The deal you obsess over was NATO promising not to station troops in east Germany if there was a reunification.
NATO has held that promise.
The bullshit about no NATO expansion is a myth perpetuated by buttblasted vatniks to justify russias criminal behavior.
How could the soviet union know that it was going to collapse and if they knew, why would they tell NATO? All deals regarding NATO not placing troops in east Germany was made when the Soviet Union was still a thing.

>>34536579
See
>>34536421
"political repression" for your equivalence

You even acknowledge and backtrack it, hilarious.

"you blame Russia for what the Soviet Union (which was ruled by a Georgian, some Ukrainians, and a bunch of Jews, not ethnic Russians"

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA "NO TRUE RUSSIAN" AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Alrighty tovarish, take it from an actual Russian, "white russian" is bullshit, and a good drink. Russia is defacto the USSR. And it was "white" russians that started and ruled the USSR.

>admits you don't know the text or the basis behind NATO

kek

"according to transcripts" of an agreement with what was the Soviet government, which changed slightly in 91.

>>34536669
>Ah, the myth of the precognicent politburo who knew the future, that's a good one.
What the fuck are you talking about? Nobody said the politburo predicted the future. Nobody is even talking about the politburo.
>>34536669
>NATO has held that promise.
You mean by putting American troops in Poland? (Why would Polacks want American nigger soldiers in Poland anyway? But that's another conversation.)
>>34536669
>The bullshit about no NATO expansion is a myth perpetuated by buttblasted vatniks to justify russias criminal behavior.
What criminal behavior? What exactly has Russia done that is illegal since the dissolution of the USSR? I'm listening.
>>34536678
>Russia is defacto the USSR
No, it isn't. Since 1991, Russia has not once rolled tanks into another to enforce communism, like the USSR did all the time.
>>34536678
>You even acknowledge and backtrack it, hilarious.
Acknowledge what?
>>34536678
>white russian
White Russians were anticommunists who fought for 25 years to liberate Russia from Bolshevik rule.

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>>34536934

>>34536997
I'm not the one who started all the Russia blaming in this thread. If you didn't want a political argument, you should not have brought it up.

>>34532452
They were also in Poland and Findland. The issue here isn't Crimea, it's the on going war in Eastern Ukraine.

I don't exactly "trust" Russia and i imagine they don't want to play by the rules to get what they want, but it's childish as fuck to think that the United States doesn't do the same.
We've been Jewish as fuck to get to where we are, and if you want to become nonpartisan about it all Donbass has every right to self-determination.

Don't believe that just because America did it means it's the right thing to do, we voted Trump because we thought Obama-Clinton was shitty, we need not defend their actions.

>>34535430
>this buttmad ruskie
The tears are delicious.

Mmm I love it when pathetic ruskies just fail ass at saving face.

NATO turkroaches got to pop your precious plane without any consequences.

And there's nothing you can do about it, no matter how much you whine about muh aleppo since lol America doesn't care about sand people.

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>>34524305
>1. Who will win the Ukrainian civil war?
No one because it's russian frozen conflict made to stop Ukriane from joining NATO and/or the EU
>2. If the separatists win, will they become part of Russia?
No for the same reason
If however the war somehow kicked off again the same thing would repeat, the Ukrainian Army uses its new found competence to make gains until Russia steps in to halt the advance and the conflict freezes again. In the long run the republics have no future as a nation, the only major money in the region that hasn't fled is in the ground but the coal mines cant be run because you need lots of energy to power the water pumps. Energy that the rebels can't use and Russia will not provide.
Atleast we got to see a twin maxim come out of this war.

>>34537527
Rebels can't produce*

Nigger

>>34537178
>They were also in Poland and Findland
That was different.
>>34537178
>The issue here isn't Crimea, it's the on going war in Eastern Ukraine.
I agree, but America still doesn't recognize Crimea as part of Russia.
>>34537305
>I don't exactly "trust" Russia
Trust but verify.
>>34537312
>Mmm I love it when pathetic ruskies just fail ass at saving face.
Not an argument.
>>34537312
>NATO turkroaches got to pop your precious plane without any consequences.
The are a bunch of towelheads. What do you expect?
>>34537312
>And there's nothing you can do about it, no matter how much you whine about muh aleppo since lol America doesn't care about sand people.
When why does America give them money and weapons?

>>34537891

Regarding your last point: because it serves our purposes, namely, gettin' them sandniggers to kill each other for us.

>>34533985
You are correct in that there are also local people in separatist controlled area now hating ethnic Ukrainians, but the difference is that while Ukraine still have grand majority of its civilian population, grand majority of the civilian population of Donesk & Luhansk is long gone.

The main reason for this is that the parts of Ukraine beyond range of typical field artillery (especially 122-mm artillery rockets) has not been shelled to shit and also still have a working civilian society. In other words those areas have jobs and people get payed in working them, schools are working as well, healthcare works, pensions are being paid, banking system exists, shops are open and have food etc. Heck for example Kiev and western parts of Ukraine are so clearly no really touched by the war in such extent that while walking on streets it would be impossible to notice that the country is at war if not all the people in uniforms and propaganda posters everywhere. But that is not the case in Luhansk & Donesk, where civilian society has basically collapsed completely - hence according best estimate (originating from OSCE) maybe about 80% of the population that they had before the war has since moved to Russia, parts of Ukraine not in separatist hands and in lesser extent to other countries. Those who have left Donask & Luhansk and Crimea to move into other parts of Ukraine total about 1.7 million people.

>>The reality that exists now is that pro-Russian hohols, Russian volunteers, pro-Ukrainian hohols and hohol nazis have been killing each other, looting, killing civilians and generally causing a humanitarian catastrophe that retarded oligarch hohol government is incapable of resolving.

The post you were replying was mine. You are correct in majority of Ukrainians being dissatisfied for their government, but it seems that lengthening of the conflict mainly impacts by making Ukrainian population more and more anti-Russian.

Have you read this:
http://www.pewglobal.org/2015/06/10/3-ukrainian-public-opinion-dissatisfied-with-current-conditions-looking-for-an-end-to-the-crisis/
and this:
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-poll-more-for-nato-against-russia/28089250.html

>What is really happening in Ukraine is that 95% of the country male population is hiding from conscripting, since as the time goes even hohols realise only a complete fucking retard is going to die for interests of oligarchs in power

Apparently that is not the case. Ukrainians may not like too much of the situation that they have now and blame their politicians for poor choices, but on the long run the main blame is shifting towards Russia, who maintains the "frozen conflict". Unlike you claim desertion is apparently not a major problem, probably because at least at this moment conscripts are not used in combat (banned in Ukrainian legislation about compulsory military service enacted in 2014). The actual war is being fought by professionals and volunteers at least at the time being. There are also clear frontlines in this military conflict, hence the armed groups tend to stay in their own territories instead of wondering around the country, hence the situation is not like for example in Bosnia in early 1990's.

>>34538421
Giving money and weapons to ISIS serves America's purposes?
>>34539087
I was not aware of that, but I can assure you that the people now living in Donbas are NEVER going to be loyal to Ukraine again. The only way Ukraine will ever reintegrate those areas is if they send vast numbers of their own version of carpetbaggers. The Ukrainian civil war is much like our own, but the difference is that Ukraine will not have blacks to use as a political weapon against former separatists if they ever have a "Reconstruction."

>>34539588
What if we would keep in the discussion with subject that is listed in topic instead of you trying repeatedly railroad it into other matters such as Syria. Is that too much to ask?

What you apparently did not get or decided to ignore is that in reality there is very little population left in "Donbass" to have any opinion. There are obviously people who volunteered to fight on side of separatists because of friends and/or family members lost, but their total number is far less significant than in the Ukrainian side. As noted maybe about 80% of civilian population that was there in start of conflict have already voted with their feet, relocated themselves elsewhere and for the large part are unlikely to return even when and if the conflict ends. Lets face it - there is hardly any future in there since there are no jobs, infrastructure is already in way worse shape than what is typical even to Russia & Ukraine in general and countless homes have been destroyed in battles. Maybe about 20% of population that remains is largely old people who have no real option for going anywhere and are trying to scrape by, which is not almost impossible since Donbass does not pay them pensions (or provide healthcare or any kind of social security) and Ukraine does not pay any pensions to people who are not registered to its other parts than Donesk & Luhansk. Those old people would be likely to accept any side that pays their pensions and provides even basic healthcare.

Just to make it clear: Neither side has apparently been really doing ethnic cleansing in most obvious ways, but pro-Ukrainian people and certain ethnic groups (such as Crimean tatars) have been decisively unhappy about Russian rule and have hence largely moved to other parts of Ukraine.

Also might be worth noting that grand majority of civilian casualties have been due to artillery (particularly MLRS) - which both sides repeatedly used in manner that can only be considered reckless by modern standards.

>>34537312

Not ruskie but.... Russia pressured Turkey into prisoning two pilots who downed Russian warplane. How can they be butthurt, if they showed they can get what they want?

>>34524305
1. Separatists.
2. Not in short term, but yes.

>>34537527

Its not just the coal mines. "Donbass" region used to be concentration of heavy industry. While much of that industry went under already before this conflict the region also has what was presumably the largest steel mill in whole Europe. For obvious reasons the steal mill has not produced anything since 2014.

What little remains of civilian population in "Donbass" have very little reason for optimism. From the oldest frozen conflicts in the region, Abhazia and Ossetia are nowadays basically run by organized crime.

>>34537178
>They were also in Poland and Findland
Not for centuries, rather for a century. But the point is the military stationed there couldn't have invade it either indeed. It is already there and it is free to move wherever it finds necessary.
>The issue here isn't Crimea
I find it hard to believe from the content of this thread.
>it's the on going war in Eastern Ukraine
Watch less CNN. They didn't go on a war in Eastern Ukraine. There's a flow of volunteers from their territory that they refuse to cut and there's 3,5 tanks and a handful of recon UAVs supplied to the rebels, mostly to test the hardware, but there's no Russian Army invading Ukraine, no Russian Navy supporting it and no Russian Air Forces bombing the shit out of poorly supplied mob Ukrainians call their military.

There's only one way. A change in govt at Kiev, soon.
End of story.

Enough with the /pol/tards in Kiev. They should stick to the internet, not governance.

>>34539387
>but it seems that lengthening of the conflict mainly impacts by making Ukrainian population more and more anti-Russian
Gee, no wonder. It also makes people inside both Ukraine and Russia more polarised towards their countrymen depending on their opinions. Ask a Georgian what he thought of Russians right after 888. But as the time passed, they were welcoming Russian tourists just as much as before.
>Unlike you claim desertion is apparently not a major problem
I'm not talking about desertion from actual military units, I'm talking about conscription avoidance. Now that the conflict is pretty much over this might not be as visible, but in 2014 young Ukrainians were in panic.

>>34540863
>There's only one way. A change in govt at Kiev
Apparently this is exactly what every Ukrainian has thought for like the past 17 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_political_crisis

It's hilarious how Ukraine is trying to build a military industrial complex and fail miserably. Can't build anything without Russia.
Still gonna be the main sponsors of countries like DPRK and Pakistan. Kek.
>NATO

>>34524305
It is not a civil war, it is naked Russian aggression.

Ukraine isn't a real country.
Why do some people LARP as separate ethnicity!
Russia should annex all of it.