I want a caseless cartridge on the market. Literally any, but

>>34511281
Cased telescoped polymer is better, anon.

>>34511288
I don't care, pick any, then make lots of it and cheap.

>>34511281
>wanting to be jewed out of reloading

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>>34511299
"Re"loading would be the wrong term; you'd buy bullets and a powder pre-mix plus a chemical hardener. You'd mix the amount of powder you want with the hardener, then use a custom press to compact the powder around the projectile. Then likely put it aside so the mix can harden out over the course of a few hours, like it was epoxy glue.

>>34511299
t. Someone who doesn't reload

That doesn't actually save you money anymore, faggot

>>34511321
i need dick, i want dick

>>34511339
i was born with a dick in my brain, yeah, fucked in the head

>>34511281
>it can't be so hard
Making it not suck would.
Also making it not pointless.

What would a caseless AR15 do that a regular 5.56x45mm rifle doesn't do already?

>>34511323
Hey faggot, what do you shoot?

>>34512024
>What would a caseless AR15 do that a regular 5.56x45mm rifle doesn't do already?
Next step in the evolution. I don't care about the AR itself, I just want that cartridge on the market. Hell I'd even go for a straight pull bolt action upper as long as it fired that cartridge; the only reason I want it as an upper for the AR-15 lower is because that's a platform that's unbelievably cheap to manufacture for. I hate brass.

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>caseless concerns

How 2 manage heat?

>>34512125
blow on it until it's cool enough to eat

>>34512173
I said caseless concerns, not caseless CORNcerns

I know it's stupid but why wouldn't a gun that injects liquid propellant into the chamber instead of having it attached to the bullet at all work?

>>34512238
>liquid shutoff valve fails
>gun sprays flaming propellant or just explodes
>

>>34512258
>Implying that's not a feature

>>34512331
>da comrade, is not malfunction, is hidden flamethrower feature!

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>>34511323
>That doesn't actually save you money anymore, faggot
>people actually believe this

>>34511281
Why? There's literally nothing wrong with normal modern ammunition.

>>34511281
You could but there's still the issue of heat build up. Why do you think nobody adipted caseless ammo?

>>34512125
>>34512430
How are they gonna make locking lugs strong enough without the support of the brass? The brass grabs on too the chamber walls and keeps the bolt from opening, the locking lugs are just there as a backup. Then when you add all the extra heat, its just gonna blow up in your face.

You also need the case to keep barrel harmonics in line, or you're accuracy will be like 6 MOAB. Barrel whip is a important concern with caseless.

>>34512430
That's only an issue for machine guns. Rifles are fine.

>>34512770
>The brass grabs on too the chamber walls and keeps the bolt from opening, the locking lugs are just there as a backup.
Ufukinw0tm9? Ever heard of blowback operated guns? Yeah that shit just flies right backwards unless a huge amount of mass is pressing down on it, the case pressing against the walls doesn't do anything. See Thompson SMG; at the start they THOUGHT it'd do what you just said but later on it turned out that it totally didn't.

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>>34511281

>>34512997
That's because the Thompson is caseless which is also why it couldn't manage the heat

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>>34513062

>>34511281

>AR upper

The AR is the reason you're not getting caseless.

Step 1 is to kill the AR.

>>34513189
Why?

>>34512770
>The brass grabs on too the chamber walls and keeps the bolt from opening, the locking lugs are just there as a backup
Fuck off John Blish

>>34511321
> you'd buy bullets and a powder pre-mix plus a chemical hardener.
do car companies sell parts kits so you can assemble their models at home? no?
well, there's two reasons for that:
1- they cant overcharge you on manufacture cost.
2- the car would be assembled improperly and the brand get's a bad name when your accelerator sensor get's stuck all the way to 11 and you hit a wall at 200 kph.

it would be the same with "re-loading" (actually straight-up manufacturing at this point, because you recover nothing from the original round), hillbillies would mix the stuff improperly and blow themselves up. plus they cant overcharge you as much.

also you would be bulk-buying actual plastic explosives so there is no way the alphabet agencies are going to allow that.(any agency anywhere, if you think about it)

>>34511281
Remington tried with the EtronX but it wasn't commercially viable enough to maintain production. No military will ever adopt caseless though because cases provide critical cooling in high volume of fire situations and make the ammo much more durable.

>>34515998
What ever happened to that AR electric ignition lower someone was working on a few years ago? I been trying to find anything with an electric system instead of just spring tension but there's nothing out there anymore only things I could find info on was the failed remington system, which would be a cool collector piece though.

>>34515930
Dumbass, have you never heard of kit cars?

>kph

Oh, you're a eurocuck, that explains it

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>>34513062
>he went all out

>>34516538
>building a car
>not just buying one
Fucking poorfags.

>>34512125
Ffs I hate this meme.

Heat is only a concern in 2 situations.
1) When you're firing full auto. Cases remove <=10 percent of the heat generated, so it will impact the rate you have to change out barrels on an MG but it won't affect the average rifle.

2) When you have heat sensitive propellant. This is where the meme came from. Early propellants were heat sensitive (igniting at around 180C/360F) , so when the cartridge was pushed into the chamber and hit the hot chamber walls, it'd cook off. The G11, where the idea that this was a problem came from, had it solved before the project was cancelled by using High Ignition Temperature Propellant with a ~50% high ignition temperature.

>>34512238
How do you seal it? Also I can't see how that wouldn't be more mechanically complicated than a regular rifle given you'll need a mechanical magazine for the bullets as well.

>>34511321
Potentially it could be cheaper, brass is the most expensive component of a cartridge after all.

But you'd need to develop caseless propellant thats cheap and safe and feasible to do in the home. Its not as simple as "mix gunpowder and elmers glue", it takes real chemistry research to develop something like that. Might not even turn out to be feasible

>>34515930
Do you not know what the aftermarket is?

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>>34512770
I genuinely can't tell if you're trolling, or really that stupid.

>>34515930
Spotted the European

>inb4 im Canadian

>>34515930
>also you would be bulk-buying actual plastic explosives so there is no way the alphabet agencies are going to allow that.(any agency anywhere, if you think about it)

Except its not in anyway comparable to actual plastic explosives. It might fit the literal definition of "plastic" and "explosive" but its a low explosive.

Its basically no different than the gun powder and rocket motors (several of which also fit in the "plastic" and "explosive" category) available to the public now.

> hillbillies would mix the stuff improperly and blow themselves
>Implying they couldn't do that already
>Implying you couldn't tailor the chemistry to be 2 part explosive and where 1 part is in the binder solution.

>>34515998
EtronX wasn't caseless, you're thinking of the Voere VEC-91.
EtronX was just electronic primer ignition.

>>34516852
Kit cars are basically playthings, you don't buy one as a daily driver. Literally the opposite way around, idiot.

So why cant they use a fuel ignition stored in the gun. IE Load tank of fuel, load stripper clip of bullets. Shoot gun. Im a fucking idiot who has no idea what he is talking about by the way

>>34518063
Why would you want to do that? How do you seal the chamber? Why make it more complicated?

>>34518163
it seems less complicated that surrounding the bullet in solid propellant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSF76Oz6_Jk

This is a tool I work with, it uses an electric charge to create a controlled explosion to drive nails into concrete.The nails are loaded via clips. The little tanks are half the size of a pop can and give thousands of shots, its strong enough to shatter granite rocks and can stick the nails in wood like ten feet away, maybe more if they didnt spin.

How does the chamber seal on a caseless firearm?

>>34518251
>it seems less complicated that surrounding the bullet in solid propellant.
Its really not. You'd have to have a magazine for the bullets, as well as an entirely different propellant system.

A combustion or powder actuated nailgun gets by because you don't have the high pressures or high speeds that a firearms works with. This simplifies sealing, means you don't need to worry about variation, means you can use pistons for indirect drive.

If that particular one uses the same method as Paslode nailguns use, it contains the gas inside a piston cylinder, the ignition drives the piston and the piston drives nail. This doesn't really work when the piston is going 3000 ft/s, has to stop dead at the end of travel and has to reset afterwards.

>>34518307
Depends on the specific system. G11 had a rotating chamber that sealed against the a rear wall. The Vec-91 just had additional seals on the bolt from what I saw. Can't remember off the top of my head how the LSAT caseless variant sealed.

>>34518307
>>34518386
Oh wait I remember, I think it had a pivoting chamber that allowed you to push cartridges into (or through in the case of a dud or CT) into the chamber and then swung down into position and sealed against a rear bulkhead. Conceptually similar to the G11 but a little less complicated.

>>34517247
> Cases remove <= 10 percent of heat

I don't know where you get your numbers from but I've read about the caseless heat problem multiple times and I've never seen numbers that low

https://www.usmilitary.com/29982/the-caseless-conundrum/

> In traditional weapons that fire metallic-case (brass-case or steel-case) ammunition, approximately 60% of the heat of combustion is removed as the casing is extracted from the chamber and ejected from the weapon. A small percentage of the remaining heat is discharged from the gun in the form of hot gases that leave the muzzle and breech as the bolt travels rearward and cycles a firing stroke. The remaining 40% of the heat “sinks” into the weapon’s chamber, barrel extension, barrel, operating system, upper and lower receivers, and that’s why the weapon gets hot. The faster the weapon fires the hotter it gets because the heat generated from combustion simply doesn’t have time to dissipate into the surrounding air and the heat of combustion builds exponentially.

>>34519560
>60% of the heat
Not him but that seems way too high. Are there any other sources with numbers like that? I could only find the one you linked and it isn't sourced.

A 5.56 casing weighs like 6g, 60% of combustion heat would mean that the casings would be coming out at like 1000K.

>>34519675
I think your math is wrong, the reaction isn't primarily thermal, it's primarily kinetic.

>>34511323
you clearly don't shoot 7.92x57

>>34519714
What does that even mean?
Obviously energy used to accelerate the bullet was accounted for. What do you even think you said?

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>>34512125
i had a silly idea around this where basically each magazine had a part of the bolt at the top as a part of it, and cocking the weapon would do something that would lock the part of the bolt to the rest of the bolt. each mag would be somewhat of a heatsink. sure, the mags would be expensive and complex, but i was just fucking around with an idea

basically, the red box is half the bolt, and when you slot it in it fits into the purple part, the guns permenent bolt, and the red part would slide on some rails in the magazine and then be pulled out with it. the majority of the heat would go with it when you changed mags, maybe.

If caseless ever leaves meme status, what will the brass jews do?

>>34520519
Air filters at rnages to congeal the powder dust in the air back into powder.

>>34519935
The chamber is what takes the heat, not the bolt face. And if you want to make a disposable chamber around the bullet you might as well just use brass.

>>34520519
Hopefully fuck off, though probably they'd start scavenging the lead from the backstops.

>>34520519
Get into finance or politics, like the regular ones.

>>34515930
You could make the same arguments about explosives for regular reloading, yet many people reload today. And yeah sometimes people blow up their guns. Or fill a coffee can full of powder and kaboom it

>>34519935
>>34520842
The idea with the mag is bad, but the basics behind it aren't. Some sort of disposable or swappable heat sink would be pretty much the big dog's biscuit.

>>34511281
>I want a caseless cartridge

Powder and ball in muskets are technically caseless. Just sayin'.

Has rifle caliber projectiles with the case "attached" to the bullet like GP-25 grenades ever been tried? Closest I've heard of is gyrojet.

>>34519560
>approximately 60% of the heat of combustion is removed as the casing is extracted from the chamber and ejected from the weapon
>heat of combustion builds exponentially
>exponentially
>Adequate heat dissipation is perhaps the single greatest show stopper preventing the use of polymer-case ammunition

He doesn't know what he is talking about.

>Paul Evancoe is a novelist and freelance writer
Yep

>>34512125
You don't have full auto. Why do you bother?

>>34511281
It already has occurred. It was called rocket ball ammo and no longer exists on the market for a reason.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_Ball

>>34512238
>liquid propellant
Propellant needs to be ins regular geometric form to have predictable burn speeds as it burns on the surface of the grains. If you simply ignite liquid it will have random bubbles that would be centers of burn and random burn speeds and pressure curves. Bad.

>we will inject it like in teh diesel as aerosol of regular droplets would be kinda spherical propellant
But here is the problem at density >0.01 g/cm3 aerosols droplets starts combining and you get no regular droplets again. It means that 5.56 gun needs 1500 cm3 size chamber. Nope.

Liquid propellants suck at fundamental level.

>>34522050
As I said, disposable heat sink = Brass.

And if some of the other anons are to be believed, its not heat but durability thats preventing caseless.

>>34523884
>for a reason
nice non-explanation fagtard. The reason it failed was because it weak as hell

>>34527621
>>34523884
No, obviously advances in chemistry and metallurgy can't validate previously infeasible concepts. /s

>>34527192
I am actually kinda surprised celluloid was never used in an attempt. I am sure with some modification you could have a injection mold able plastic that burns clean and well. The biggest issue getting the right level of nitration for nitro cellulose.

>>34522528
Rocket Ball existed but it was severely limited by the time it was introduced. Metallic cases were a new thing at the time, and the limited volume and undeveloped powder of the time lead to an extremely anemic cartridge. Even for the time.

There was also a WW2 German 9mm prototype that was pretty similar to the Gyrojet. I have a vague recollection of another more modern (maybe italian?) project that was essentially a straight walled modernized rocket ball using smokeless powder not a rocket like the Gyrojet but I can't for the life of me find it.

As a side note; I do wonder why the US doesn't go to a caseless Russian grenade. Seems like it'd be amazing with things like the Milkor

>>34529744
What do you mean? As in have a case that burns up like a paper cartridge but is hard?