Engineering Disasters: P-51 Mustang

>>34476999

2/2

For all practical purposes a P-51 could successfully battle a German plane from just one direction:

"The only way our planes could defeat their planes is if we could run around behind them and shoot them in the rear end where there wasn't much armor."

"We did that but typically it would take 5 planes being blown up before the 6th one could run around and shoot them in the back. The mathematics were not good."

When it became clear to the American Army Air Force that their magnificent war machines were so vulnerable they resorted to makeshift methods that would add defensive capabilities and length to their lives.

"Anything that they could gather they could put on that faceplate to protect it, they would put logs they would put steel plates, they would put chicken wire backed up by 4 inches of concrete on that faceplate. Anything they could put on that to give them a shred of survival."

But for the most part any effort to improve the Mustangs was futile.

To make matters worse P-51s required highly flammable high-octane gasoline. Their engines were originally designed for Spitfires.

The job of a P-51 Mustang maintenance engineer was a grisly one.

"We had to clean the planes out, it's a terrible job to clean out a plane with the head shot off and the arms and legs dismembered. It's just awful and we had to put the men inside the planes and wrap them up in a tarp and put them off to the side and the plane crews knew that if they got in that plane and went into battle they would be in bad shape."

For soldiers like Barry Copper whose World War II duties involved aircraft maintenance there is no doubt who the unsung heroes of World War II are.

The crews of Mustangs.

P-51 Mustangs, remembered by their designers for range and firepower, and by their crews for being the right planes for the wrong war.

"We were just inadequate, that's all I can say, we just did not understand what we were doing. It's a great tragedy."

Holy fuck kys

>>34477146

Are you telling me Barry Copper is not a reliable source?

>>34477156
kys nazinigger bigot

>>34477160

Barry Copper worked on P-51s during the war, I'm pretty sure he knows more about them than you.

>>34477162
see >>34477160

How the hell did they recover planes with dead pilots still strapped in them in the first place? Were they strafed the moment they landed the plane?

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Well memed, OP

We'll see how many morons actually get it

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Excuse me superior plane coming through

>>34477173
Maybe the mortally wounded pilot managed to land the thing before keeling over. Or maybe they recovered them after they crashed without destroying the airframe too much. I know some of these claims are true but some seem shifty.

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>>34477080
>"The only way our planes could defeat their planes is if we could run around behind them and shoot them in the rear end where there wasn't much armor."

Where is this from? What planes is he referring to?

>To make matters worse P-51s required highly flammable high-octane gasoline. Their engines were originally designed for Spitfires.

Aviation fuel is high octane gas. Also why the Spitfire hate?

>"Anything that they could gather they could put on that faceplate to protect it, they would put logs they would put steel plates, they would put chicken wire backed up by 4 inches of concrete on that faceplate. Anything they could put on that to give them a shred of survival."

What the fuck is going on?

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>>34477080
>"The only way our planes could defeat their planes is if we could run around behind them and shoot them in the rear end where there wasn't much armor."

thanks OP i needed a laugh

>>34477080
>We had to clean the planes out, it's a terrible job to clean out a plane with the head shot off and the arms and legs dismembered.

Yeahhhhh if a pilot gets his head shot off, there's no fucking way he's getting the plane back for them to clean it out.

0/10.

The p51 gets the same treatment as say a tiger, it has a legend of being leagues ahead. Of course this is not true, there where tons of planes on paar with the p51 in a dogfight. At the same time this sounds like a bad m4 documentary with "Sherman" replaced with "mustang," which is selling the plane short.

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>>34476999
here's your (you)

>>34477080
>Adding 4 inches of concrete and stupid amounts of weight to a fighter aircraft
Nope! That will mess with the flight dynamics and balance too much.

>>34476999
>>34477080
>All these newfags won't recognize that this is madlibs deathtraps edition

>>34477210
Maybe they meant his dickhead

Who knew the Mustang was such a deathtrap.

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>>34476999
>P-51 Mustang
>1/2
You're right.

>>34477381
>geebillytwopilots.jpg

>>34477251
I didn't even know there was a madlibs of it and have never read the book, but I figured it out pretty quickly.

A+ troll op. Took me awhile to figure out what you did there.

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>>34477392
Think about how easy it would be to make an a20.

>>34477416
>Took me awhile to figure out what you did there.
care to actually ruin a joke instead of implying that you've done so?

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>>34477181

>>34477429
It's a report on the Sherman tank with all references to the tank changed to p51 mustang.

wtf i hate mustangs now

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>>34477647

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>>34476999

>MEME 262 and ME163

Ahh yes, the uberplanes that won the war for Germany! Except that at the very most, the largest number of 262s in combat at the same time was 52.

Also, the 163s claimed a TOTAL of 12 kills. That is with the hundreds of Komets shot down or crashed.

>>34477208

This is a copy pasta that is usually about Sherman tanks, not P51s.

>>34477694
>30m/s climb at the deck
Holy fuck.

>>34476999
OP, you had me going until I remembered that it was the Army Air Corps until September 1947, 2 years after the end of the war

>>34477748

The 8th Air Force was part of the Army Air Corps.

>More me109s were destroyed during take off and landing than in Arial combat, due to badly designed landing gear.

m-m-muh German superiority tho!

>>34477839
>Landing gears a greater threat than allied planes
rly makes u think

>>34477156
>Are you telling me Barry Copper is not a reliable source?

Yes.

I am saying right now, that this "Barry Copper" is NOT a reliable source.

The P-51 put the final nail in the coffin for Germany and the Luftwaffe. No other allied bird, be it Jug, Lightning, Spitter, Hurri, Fury, or whatever, had the capability to do what the 51 could do.

Fuck off with your bullshit.

>>34477929

Then why did P-51 crews attach anything they could around the cockpit of their plane to increase their survival against superior German aircraft?

>>34477942
how new r u?

>>34477942
Probably because the fucking bird was the ONLY U.S. fighter capable of entering the most heavily fucking defended airspace in the ETO.

>>34477482
>post correct answer
>title is "death traps"
>newfaggots still swallow the bait
Stop throwing them back

>>34477950
>>34477951

>"Anything that they could gather they could put on that faceplate to protect it, they would put logs they would put steel plates, they would put chicken wire backed up by 4 inches of concrete on that faceplate. Anything they could put on that to give them a shred of survival."


dude, it sucked, face it

>>34476999

Reminder that Soviet pilots preferred lend lease P-51s to Yak-9s.

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To be completely fair I have read that the p 51 was not a particularity special plane in the sky. Its main air combat advantage coming from ease of use. I read a while back that experience p38 drivers could out turn and generally out fly p 51s at most altitudes but it required a lot more attention and care. Constantly adjusting boost levels and flap settings etc.. your average pilot did better with the simpler to fly Mustang.

It was better looking too

>>34477982
Sure it did.

That's why it kept going to, and coming back, from places no other fighters could.

We're done, precious.

>>34478018

>"We were just inadequate, that's all I can say, we just did not understand what we were doing. It's a great tragedy."

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>>34478005
>better looking

See that's where you're wrong

>>34478040
That's a nice quote from a book about sherman tanks.

>>34478057

Barry Copper's book "Safety Risks" was about his time working in a maintenance unit on P-51 Mustangs.

>>34478066
And my book was on how new r u about 4chan.

>>34478005

That's very true but it wasn't until the late model J-L P38s didn't become suicidal is high speed dives.

However, the P38 had a higher power-to-weight, lower wing loading and better roll rate.

>>34477950
How new are you?

>>34476999
>>34477080
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

>>34477245
>he's never heard of concrete airframe ballast
>he doesn't know that quikrete got its name in ww2 because it made the planes go faster
>he doesn't realize that the only reason the ancient Greeks never achieved flight is a lack of properly formed ferrocement.

When is summer going to end?

>>34476999
The only way the P-51 could have been more perfect is if all it's machine guns fired .45 ACP.

>>34478088
yeah I dont know how old you are but a lot of the performance numbers for the Lightning were very wrong up until about ten years ago. Most of the books I read were way way off until Lockheed actually decided to correct everything. Growing up People thought that the Lightning climbed at around 2500 ft per min which never made sense considering Richards Bongs quote that it could "climb like a home sick angel" turns out it climbed at over 4k per minute. thats a HUGE difference and seems more in line with its power to weight ratio and turbocharging advantage.

>>34477080
>>34476999
Tbh didn't the German aircraft have some of the most wicked 20 and 30mm guns? What kind of armor could you slap in a plane that would make them any more robust without killing their power, range or maneuverability

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>>34477982

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>>34478051
tfw u will never get a chance to use 4 .50 cal and a 20mm cannon on japs and fgt krauts at angels 20 in the skies over the Pacific and Europe......feels pretty bad tbqh

>>34478121

Depended a lot on the engine settings used. I think the AAF had the P38-G rated for 45.5" MP at military power while there was a time limited use of 54.5" for Code Brown moments.

In the field those, the early 1710 engines were reliable up to 72" and crew chiefs let the pilots decide whether to risk a failure or not. It was worth something like 300hp per engine at all altitudes.

That being said>>34477694

The non-combat seeing P51-H had ~15 minutes of fucking Super Saiyan performance. It didn't see combat because the normal P51 was good enough seal clubbing the untrained kids that were left of the German and Japanese pilots. Also, the P47 -M and -N were pretty hot shit too.

>>34478132

Do you have an argument or are you just going to post niggergifs?

>>34476999
google "safety risks barry copper"
nothing come out
link pls
>>34476999
>Barry Copper
what's so special about him?

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>all these anons taking the bait

>>34478236

Barry Copper did maintenance on P-51s during the war and had to clean out the cockpits of all the dead pilots. Not a fun job.

>>34478210
People dont realize that performance advantages are not static but change depending upon altitude and at what speeds etc..

flight simulators through the 90s made the Lightning handle like a damn B17 and it drove me nuts. Reading notes from Lighting pilots saying they could turn inside Spitfires with flaps at x setting and could boom and zoom with ease just never fit games or the running narrative of Mustangs saved teh world!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6McV4L_K7xA

my two favorite aircraft of all time. The only way it could be better is if a B-25 and an F-14 showed up.

Face it Ameriboos.

The P-51 was pretty much a flying Ronson.

>>34478305

The problem I think is people don't understand just how thin the air can get at 30,000+ ft too. The P47 is regarded as a heavy and un-athletic plane but above 400 mph IAS, it could out turn 109s, 190s and Spitfires. I can't find the article at the moment but it was a common thing in mock dogfights between the AAF and the RAF that the P47s were immune to Spitfires above 9,000m / 30,000ft.

At those altitudes, the P47 is at peak performance and the normal Merlin was struggling to breathe. The P47 climbed better, accelerated better, rolled better, turned better and dove better. Below the critical alt for the Spirfire, the P47 has a terrible power-to-weight but that ratio is effectively constant to 32,000ft with 2,000 hp for the 1942 engine settings were as the Spitfire is bearing making 800 hp at that height.

>>34478412
yeah up high and fast they were pretty good. Every where else aside from a deep dive they were pretty bad though.

25 years ago I used to build models of all these planes. Still have some of them around somewhere but the jug was always kind of fugly compared next to a svelte 109 or spit. too big and bulky. My favorite models was the 1:32 scale Lightning and the 1:48 B-29.

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>>34477209
>was actually interested in the info
>something seemed familiar
>read "i knew we had an inferior plane"
>"5 or 6 planes to circle around"
>laugh my ass off

>>34478018
Replace p-51 with Sherman.

Quantity has a quality all its own.

>>34476999
It's a lemon! It's a turkey!

>>34478097
Overreach much?

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>people actually falling for this b8

>>34478130
it's from "Deathtraps", just moddified to be about Mustangs. And Copper was speaking mostly out of his ass.

>>34476999
Ebin
Have a bump

>>34477156
i sure am. i worked on the dago red team 2005-2006. google it, mouth breather.

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>>34477777
>those digits

>>34478978
I'm an Amurican. Overreaching is what put our species on the moon. You're welcome for our cervix. And our massive, throbbing penises.

Didn't the kraut planes all mount cannon? Why did the brits and especially the muricans use MG banks instead?

According to Roald Dahl, who apparently flew with the RAF, kraut planes could hit just about anywhere with their cannon and score a telling blow while MGs had to hit the engine or a cockpit. Seems like cannon were better so why didn't the Allies use more of them?

>>34479387

Ammo count. The German 30mm cannons we're mostly for the heavy bombers. The MK108 had terrible muzzle velocity and ballistic drop. Also, the American, with the exception of the P38, used matched guns. The spitfires, 109s and 190 that mixed machine guns and cannons had to worry the drop of the different rounds at range.

>>34479452
>with the exception of the P38
The 20X110mm Hispano and .50 BMG were much better ballistically matched than any German gun combination.

>>34479387
The brits did use plenty of cannons though. They put the Hispanos in as soon as they had the capability.

>>34479387
The anecdote is from 1940. the RAF knew they needed cannons ASAP and had them on Spitfires by Autumn 1940

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>>34476999
>>34477080

>>34476999
>>34477080
It had a kill:loss ratio of 11:1. There is really no argument you can offer in response.

Bradley Cooper being "shocked" at the fact that a 20mm round can penetrate aluminum is not an argument.

>They lost 648 planes totally destroyed in combat, another 700 knocked out and then put back in action
So a shot-down P-51 was successfully landed over 50% of the time? Do you have any idea how GOOD that is?

>>34479896
Barry Cooper* kek.

>>34478005

Unfortunately that mostly came after the J model. There was an upgrade on the way but it was shot down by a brit.

>The final 210 J models, designated P-38J-25-LO, alleviated the compressibility problem through the addition of a set of electrically actuated dive recovery flaps just outboard of the engines on the bottom centerline of the wings. With these improvements, a USAAF pilot reported a dive speed of almost 600 mph (970 km/h), although the indicated air speed was later corrected for compressibility error, and the actual dive speed was lower. Lockheed manufactured over 200 retrofit modification kits to be installed on P-38J-10-LO and J-20-LO already in Europe, but the USAAF C-54 carrying them was shot down by an RAF pilot who mistook the Douglas transport for a German Focke-Wulf Condor.

>>34479917
>Lockheed manufactured over 200 retrofit modification kits to be installed on P-38J-10-LO and J-20-LO already in Europe, but the USAAF C-54 carrying them was shot down by an RAF pilot who mistook the Douglas transport for a German Focke-Wulf Condor.
I'm guessing this guy was a Typhoon pilot.

>>34479946
Is this why Lockheed became turbo jews and actively tried to kill European aerospace industry?

>the plane gets damaged when it is shot, including the pilot within

gee who woulda guessed?

>>34478160
Not scrapping the 20mm to add 4 more .50's for maximum dakka. Shame on you anon.

Holy shit OP. Your shitposting is so powerful it is jeopardizing the stability of other boards. Bravo you faggot.

t. /wtg/

>>34480282
>/wtg/
?

>>34480282
>Your shitposting is so powerful it is jeopardizing the stability of other boards.
citation please . cross board post it.

>>34480321
>>34480330

>>>/vg/182010593

>>34480345
Kek
So many shitters not getting it

>>34480345
>>>/vg/182048557
I'm contributing.

This is not /o/.
Stop treating the board like it is.

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>>34480572
If we can meme a tringo onto a boat, we can meme a twingo onto a plane.

>People not realizing this is bait based on Death Traps

What's the official count on people who took the bait so far.

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>>34477080
>"The only way our planes could defeat their planes is if we could run around behind them and shoot them in the rear end where there wasn't much armor."
image relevant
>they would put chicken wire backed up by 4 inches of concrete on that faceplate
>concrete
>on an airplane

>"We had to clean the planes out, it's a terrible job to clean out a plane with the head shot off and the arms and legs dismembered. It's just awful and we had to put the men inside the planes and wrap them up in a tarp and put them off to the side and the plane crews knew that if they got in that plane and went into battle they would be in bad shape."
You wouldn't even attempt to relaunch that, since the plane would have been FUBAR in the crash.

>>34480655
>>FUBAR in the crash.
>2012
>not designing your airframe to crack and shear instead of deform
(I'm memeing you, you fucknig retard)

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>>34476999

>>34478110
Fucking underrated post

Fucking tommycookers

>>34477982
ITS A PASTA (originally) ABOUT SHERMANS NOT P-51's YOU NIGGER

>>34481349

Sorry but I'm pretty sure you don't know more about P-51s than Barry Copper.

ronsons!

>>34477160
hey, /wtg/

>>34476999
All these threads about military hardware of various types being terrible. All cite sources in repair depots

Ever hear of observer bias?

>>34477219

I'm pretty sure that's what it is.

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>>34476999
god damn, no wonder the allies lost WWII...oh wait we won.
this just in...OP is a faggot and full of shit to boot.

>>34477080
Gave me a hearty chuckle. So much bait!

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>>34478110

Also, Yak-9 won the war thanks to its simplicity of construction and sloped cowling.
The germans were so stunned by its appearance, the FW190 started as a copy of it.

>>34476999
This all seems very poorly written and contrived.

Try harder.

The responses in this thread... I think I've become too old for /k/.

>>34477839
>Arial combat
How did they do in Helvetica battles?

>>34478097
>quikrete got its name in ww2 because it made the planes go faster
I loled

>>34477080
>it's a terrible job to clean out a plane with the head shot off and the arms and legs dismembered
>head shot off
>>34477190
>mortally wounded pilot managed to land the thing before keeling over
how?

1/2

How many times have you seen images like this from film shot during WWII? Powerful American Iowa-classes in the waters of Europe delivering firepower to allied ground troops when it was needed most. When the decision was made to invade Europe Admiral William Halsey selected the Iowa as his fleet escort of choice. Iowas rolled off the assembly lines nearly 15,000 in total. When they reached Europe seamen immediately took them into battle. The image of the approaching Iowas became a symbol of the myth-like invincibility of the American war machine.

But those who actually fought in and maintained the Iowas claimed the invincibility was a myth and as far as their design for World War II was concerned the ships were engineering disasters.

Barry Copper served as a Captain on an Iowa maintenance unit in the American 8th Fleet. He recounted his experiences in a book titled "Safety Risks". Copper vividly remembers the first time he approached a disabled Iowa:

"I was devastated. The first shot had gone through the bow and in addition to the three quarter inches of armor behind the bow it had gone through the 8 boilers and that stopped the ship and the second shot went through the fire wall and cut about an inch groove through about a quarter inch of armor and the blast killed the captain."

"After I saw that I thought this ship had no protection at all, and after that they started bringing ships in droves with the dead and wounded inside and it was just terrible and I knew then that we had an inferior ship."

The Iowas may have had the range and firepower so highly regarded by Halsey but those were not the qualities needed to fight the fastest German Schnellboots and Bismarcks.

The statistics from Copper's unit speak for themselves. They lost 648 ships totally destroyed in combat, another 700 knocked out and then put back in action.

>>34485442

2/2

For all practical purposes an Iowa could successfully battle a German ship from just one direction:

"The only way our ships could defeat their ships is if we could run around behind them and shoot them in the rear end where there wasn't much armor."

"We did that but typically it would take 5 ships being blown up before the 6th one could run around and shoot them in the back. The mathematics were not good."

When it became clear to the American Navy that their magnificent war machines were so vulnerable they resorted to makeshift methods that would add defensive capabilities and length to their lives.

"Anything that they could gather they could put on that faceplate to protect it, they would put logs they would put steel plates, they would put chicken wire backed up by 4 inches of concrete on that faceplate. Anything they could put on that to give them a shred of survival."

But for the most part any effort to improve the Iowa was futile.

To make matters worse Iowas required highly flammable high-octane gasoline. Their engines were originally designed for KGVs.

The job of a Iowa maintenance engineer was a grisly one.

"We had to clean the ships out, it's a terrible job to clean out a plane with the head shot off and the arms and legs dismembered. It's just awful and we had to put the men inside the ships and wrap them up in a tarp and put them off to the side and the ship crews knew that if they got in that ship and went into battle they would be in bad shape."

For soldiers like Barry Copper whose World War II duties involved ship maintenance there is no doubt who the unsung heroes of World War II are.

The crews of Iowas.

Iowas, remembered by their designers for range and firepower, and by their crews for being the right ships for the wrong war.

"We were just inadequate, that's all I can say, we just did not understand what we were doing. It's a great tragedy."

>>34478288
How long ago did your mom let you finally use the internet

>>34485442
>Iowas rolled off the assembly lines nearly 15,000 in total.
muh dik

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>>34477176
>>34476999
VERY well meme'd look at all the spergs. GJ OP

>>34485005
I thought the summer thing was just a meme, but right now I kinda hope it isn't.

>>34477181
Unless you dive and create a vortex around the stabilizer, preventing you from bringing the plane up. Right?

>>34486430
this guy knows what's up

>>34477777
Q U I N T S

>>34487157
>create a vortex around the stabilizer

It's actually transonic effects around the center wing section blanketing the stabilizer at high speeds, but that's why they added the dive flaps.

>>34487200
Isn't "vortex" a simpler name for exactly that?

And yes, fortunately they fixed it, but not before 109 pilots learned to take advantage of it for some time

>>34487226
No, a vortex denote some sort of swirling motion in the flow. Transonic effects tend to be mostly localized oblique shock waves.

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>>34485442
>15,000 iowas

>>34479387
The British moved to cannon as soon as they could, but every time the US Army tried to put a 20mm autocannon into production - either a domestic design or a foreign one under licence - they just kept fucking things up. By the time they got things unfucked enough for limited production going, the war was almost over.
The USN used the 20mm Oerlikon, which was good for what it was, but it was strictly a last-ditch AA weapon. On planes? Well, ask the Japanese how well their version (the Type-99) worked out for them at Midway.

>>34477162
>He did some basic task during the war so he knows


Soldier stereotypes are worse than fuddlore, anon.

>>34479387
Endurance and reliability concerns, mostly
Long-range escort fighters like the P-51 and P-47 weren't fighting on their own doorstep like RAF and Luftwaffe interceptors were, thus the ammo capacity and redundancy of 6-8 .50s over 1-2 cannons plus 2-4 rifle-caliber MGs was preferred
Of course, there was also the matter of the USAAC cocking up every attempt to adopt a cannon armament

>>34477173
This. The story sounds like bullshit.

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>>34487390

>>34488424
I want to fuck this piece of all-American meat.

Why hasn't this thread been taken down yet?

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It continues to this day.

>>34479387
.50 cal is a good compromise between LMG and cannon. It can pierce engines, some armor and will rip arms and legs whereas a .303 will just wound at those distances. Most pilots didn't aim for a cockpit shot and couldn't into deflection shooting anyways.

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this reads more like b-17 stories than p-51 mustangs

>>34479452

But that's not true
They specifically chose the MG 131 HMG to fire at the same velocity as the MG 151 20mm cannon during the second half of the war which armed most Fw 190 and Bf 109 fighters (with the exception of those carrying heavy cannons for bomber interception), plus they were mostly concentrated around the nose and thus didn't need the fine convergence settings of Allied aircraft

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>>34485442
>15,000 Iowas

>>34476999

>>34490661

Good troll OP How long did it take to find/replace the Sherman references

primary sources aren't always a reliable source

example being (((belton cooper))) and his shitty book that doesn't hold up to scrutiny based on US army statistics and record keeping

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>>34488412
Because it IS bullshit, you fucking imbeciles. It's an excerpt from Belton Cooper's book "Death Traps" which was about the Sherman. It's considered to be not worth the paper it's printed on by people who live in reality, and considered gospel by Wehraboos.

Open your eyes, you fucking retards. IT'S BAIT.

>>34485248
> not knowing about Code Dullahan where planes with dead pilots could be flown back to base by radio to fly again

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>>34485442
>but those were not the qualities needed to fight the fastest German Schnellboots and Bismarcks
this shitty bait thread was worth it for this

>>34480146
for the weight you can only get another 2 .50s in and thats less Dakka not more.

weight for weight 20mms were more effective at shooting down all types of plane, with the possible exception of some of the wooden ones

>>34491549
I dunno, man. This Billy Copper guy sure sounds like he knows his stuff.

>>34491931

I think bongs found out in a research that a single hispano mk.ii was almost as effective as three fiddies, while weighing not much more than one

There's a reason burgers switched to cannons shortly after the war

Now this is how you do a fun bait thread.

>>34476999
I read years ago and can't remember where,that the P-47 was actually a better plan with a lot more pilot protection. The P-51 cost $100 000 to make and the P-47 cost $150 000 so the opted for more mustangs.

>>34477080
All WW 2 fighters used high octane gasoline. The original power plant designed for the Mustang also used high octane. The switched to Merlins because the high altitude performance sucked on the original engine.

>>34477210
sounds like he is mixing bomber stories in there.