When did modern firefight tactics like room clearing, SLICING

File: 1498610077983.jpg (36KB, 223x349px) Image search: [Google]

36KB, 223x349px

>>34385616
If they were developped in WW1/2 those wars wouldn't be such a meat grinder

i think they were developed after vietnam?

>>34385616
Fallujah my nigger
Fallujah.

>>34385616
These techniques were pioneered by counter terrorism units from various western countries in the late 70s into the 80s especially after the Munich hostage crisis. These techniques didn't start being taught to average soldiers until after the battle of Mogadishu.

File: World War II Street-Fighting Tactics-39.jpg (407KB, 1195x1683px) Image search: [Google]

407KB, 1195x1683px

>>34385616
In WWII, "room clearing" was as simple as tossing a grenade inside a room, or hosing the building down with small arms fire, shells, or bombs.

FIBUA tactics really came into existence after WWII via the realization that that shit costs so much civilian deaths. In addition to the fact that the late 20th Century saw increasing urbanization of human societies.

However, such tactics were developed in a span of decades.

>>34385616
There was some basic stuff in ww2. Ww1 not so much cause most fighting was in the country. It really got developed during the cold war with the rise of low intensity and urban conflicts. Remember that in a full scale war theres less need for cqc stuff because if youre facing a bunch of guys in a building you can just fucking blow it up. If you for some reason cant then it gets a lot tougher.

File: 1498151696068.jpg (143KB, 728x546px) Image search: [Google]

143KB, 728x546px

>>34385657
>In WWII, "room clearing" was as simple as tossing a grenade inside a room, or hosing the building down with small arms fire, shells, or bombs.
That's still what it's like, anon. Trying to breach like OP's picture does not work for shit if the enemy is at all prepared, or consists of modern combatants. You'll just lose entire platoons trying to clear a building with a couple wankers in it.

File: Ypres-from-the-air-before-and-after-the-war.jpg (99KB, 800x243px) Image search: [Google]

99KB, 800x243px

>WWI room clearing

File: ypres_1919.jpg (84KB, 1024x408px) Image search: [Google]

84KB, 1024x408px

>>34385739
clear

>>34385657
When my uncle was in the army, he was taught, throw in two grenades, one guy sprays shoulder height, other knee height after the grenades go off.

File: 8c69b57fb15a4868b8cdb58e66db58e1.jpg (40KB, 600x315px) Image search: [Google]

40KB, 600x315px

>>34385657
>FIBUA tactics really came into existence after WWII via the realization that that shit costs so much civilian deaths.
Northern Ireland & brick tactics, easily.

You couldn't just go round chucking grenades like the IRA.

The whole realisation that 7.62, 9mm and shotguns was fucking useless for FIBUA

>>34385616
What happens to 1 if there's someone on the left?

>>34385889
He dies.

>>34385616
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzwY6jIwr2o

>>34385895
Ok, at least the room is promptly cleaned then.

>>34385739
that's not Ieper you wanker
a. ieper is a city not a hamlet
b. Ieper has a Vauban starfort around it
c. Ieper has a freaking moat around it

File: IMG_1482.jpg (135KB, 648x848px) Image search: [Google]

135KB, 648x848px

>>34385825
>The whole realisation that 7.62, 9mm and shotguns was fucking useless for FIBUA

Just fucking leave

>>34385932
My knowledge of Belgian cities is pretty limited so I'll take your word on that.

>>34385958
7.62 was fucking useless as it would go throguh 10 layers of drywall and hit civilians

9mm didn't have range to take on anything beyond 100m which was a massive issue in divis flats

Shotguns ended up spreading all over the place.

My nigger go to the library and read a book

File: IMG_1381.jpg (62KB, 720x710px) Image search: [Google]

62KB, 720x710px

>>34386041
We started a thread about MOUT tactics and their dissemination in infantry units. You turned it into shitposting about a very specific series of preferences of calibers in a anti guerrilla campaign. Which, by the way, had no usefulness in wars a mere 10-20 years later in Mogadishu or Iraq.
>7.62
A very useful round which allows for extended engagements on streets over 300 yards. Or simply when suppressing in a machine gun.
>9mm
Has been used in MOUT including Fallujah. Pistols were used for clearing tight spaces. A sub machine gun would excel in clearing rooms.
>shotguns
Excellent for destroying doors or locks and can double as a weapon if needed. Good out to 50 yards.
As OP and others pointed out, MOUT is tricky and often resorts to destroying entire buildings and blocks. It's better to have more tools in the toolbox than less. The US infantry squad would probably benefit from having more 7.62 rifles on a team but that's another discussion. Bottom line ; the IRA conflict was microscopic and not applicable to the bigger picture

>>34386017
well than my autism has served me well at least once

>>34386102
this made me facepalm

>>34386102
>300 yards
>MOUT

>>34386102
>Bottom line ; the IRA conflict was microscopic and not applicable to the bigger picture
you're avin a giggle it lasted 20 years, in a first world superpower and was not even shown on regional news yet alone global.

Day in day out.

>>34386102
yeah yeah yeah this just went in over your head.
7.62, & shotguns are excellent for special weapons
7.62 on a one in team basis, and shotguns as a secondary for point man

Otherwise they're terrible as standard issue.

9mm is useless unless you're talking sidearms or hostage rescue

Hence 5.56 prevalence today

File: IMG_1249.jpg (145KB, 700x960px) Image search: [Google]

145KB, 700x960px

>>34386208
>nod an argumend
>>34386212
yes, it happens quite a lot. Snipers and DMRs are used extensively in MOUT to control streets which are corridors of fire and resupply. Rooftops and high windows are extremly useful.
>>34386225
>Britain
>Superpower
It wasn't reported because it was a glorified police action that the military was called into it. It's avoided because the Brits infantry has historically been shit.
Fucking day/k/are. Go read no true glory or anything that isn't about Rhodesia.

>>34386261
fuck off you no guns plastic paddy, let the men talk

>>34386273
>a triggered Brit calling an American a no gunz
Shouldn't you be praying at the Mosque?

>>34386326
i'm south african you tozzer

>>34385889
>What happens to 1 if there's someone on the left?
The picture is a little messed up. 1 and 2 should be entering the room almost simultaneously. There really should be barely a split second between and 2 should be nut to but with 1.

>>34386261
> brits infantry has historically been shit

> ignoring that they were the most experienced and professional army at the beginning of WW1 and WW2 except maybe the nazis
> ignoring the fact that the brits had hands down the most conflicts and experience in conflicts during the 20th century
> ignoring the fact that british troops have been fighting every year for 120+ years except maybe 3
> ignoring the fact that many countries based their military structure and units off of british counterparts
> ignoring the fact that the SFOD-D are based off the SAS and the Green Berets are based off of the Royal Marines
> ignoring the fact that the brits BTFO argentina thousands of miles away from the UK mainland, and that the Paras with 300 men took on 1200 argies and killed or captured all of them
> ignoring the fact that the UK has been in almost every war the US has been in and more


Its so funny what constitutes american 'education' these days...

>>34385739
That's passchendale.

>>34386813
British military command has been pretty fucking stupid. Sending countless Aussies to die climbing a fucking cliff because they can't into geography is a pretty good example.

If we really want to talk about professional militaries in WW2, I'd give it to Canada. By far the best performance per capita.

>>34386952
> using the expendable surplus population for the shittiest tasks

Remind me, what were the Harlem Hellfighters again? What were the Tuskegee experiments..?

>>34387103
Being sent to your death because some fuckwad can't read a map isn't a "shitty task", it's a fucking waste of manpower and trying to justify it by saying they were "expendable" or "surplus population" just makes you look like a fucking sociopath.

>>34387137
> being sent to your death because some fuckwad cant read a map
> what is Operation Cottage

>>34386261
>Brits infantry has historically been shit.
What is goose green?
What is omdurman
what is mons?

>>34386952
Americans work closely with JTF2 because they don't have British arrogance. British butt hurt about not being in charge jams up interoperability. Canadian troops don't mind being told what to do.

>>34386346
bauauhauabbuaua

how are you typing while being raped and tortured?

shouldnt you kill yourself before you face something worse than death?

when i see south african online i fucking gag , how stupid can you be to still live there, move you idiot

>>34387217
British are good troops but they just haven't accepted they aren't a big dog anymore. They don't have the equipment or the technologies and get further behind every year. Canadian troops get shut done without grinding animosity we aren't a superpower.

>>34387236
> american butthurt about not being in control jams up interoperability

Ftfy. If the yankee doodles arent in complete control they throw all their toys out of the pram. Brits on exercise in Eastern Europe just do as told and do well. Brits on ops usually play second fiddle to yanks purely because yankee doodles have a napoleon complex and if they arent running the show they wont partake, hence why the brits are more than happy to get along on their own.

File: plastic paddies.jpg (1MB, 1376x2660px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1376x2660px

>>34387252
AMERICA FUCK YEAH

we know who you are

File: yankee doodle.jpg (145KB, 1333x554px) Image search: [Google]

145KB, 1333x554px

>>34387272
i have that greetext

>>34387268
> canada gets shit done
> navy consists of about 3 ships and a canoe
> basically no canadian troops do anything except JTF2
Meanwhile
> british troops in afghan training ANA
> british troops in Europe on exercise and training Baltic forces
> british SF in syria and iraq
> brits deployed in Kenya on peacekeeping
> etc etc etc

>>34387252
do you have any friends?

You don't seem to like anyone you kaffir

>>34387285
hooah

File: 1498600531766.jpg (44KB, 552x621px) Image search: [Google]

44KB, 552x621px

>>34387272
I'm Canadian and served and the only difference between Americans and British are the Americans actually are a superpower and the Brits just act like they are.
We use German jeeps G wagons
We use German tanks Leopard 2
We use German field guns Howitzer
We idiotically bought British submarines and after ten fucking years and two deaths they still don't work so........
We are buying German submarines.
American jets and rifles.
British kit has been weighed measured and found wanting.

>>34387341
And yet british forces are still considered one of the most professional and elite forces in the world. Gucci kit isnt a cop out for good soldiering.

>>34387236
not knowing the number of canadians in the british army
not knowing the number of british in the canadian army
almost all the instructors for CAC are british
The british have a quarter of their challenger fleet and an eighth of their other armoured vehicles based in canada

This is all besides the point since JTF2 rarely deployed, and they had to refer to the SAS when it came to the christian peacemaker crisis

>>34387302
You know your nation has been in decline since trading your empire in the second Jews war.
You may want to start hand to hand training so your soldiers can cross the street without getting slashed to mince meat. Lol
Mumsie can I av a pistol like me American cousins?
No you'll shoot your eye out.

>>34387268
>They don't have the equipment or the technologies
The british equipment is pretty good now, i spoke to one on here the other day and he said the only piece of equipment that hasn't changed in the past 8 years was the mess tins. Otherwise everythings been replaced or upgraded

>>34387164
>a isolated incident
>vs MONTHS of repeated attacks
Nigel plz

>>34387341
> 35 yanks die every day from firearms
> 40,000 per year die from household appliances
> less than 58% white and set to be below 40% white in 20 years

If thats the standard to beat I think we're good, thanks for the offer though. We'll just keep on trucking with our 95% whiteness.

>>34387393
> an isolated incident of sending loads of men to die to capture a piece of dirt to then leave again

What was Vietnam

>>34387393
>MONTHS of repeated attacks
You realise that Australian commanders had to agree to attacks?

>>34387375
CAC?
Central Area concentration?
I've been in twenty years and have never heard of CAC.
British train in Canada because all you have in a tiny little shitspeck island. We can drive at 80km an hour for two days and not even have left our Province. British are honestly and sincerely snickered at here in Canada like a kitten that hisses at you.

>>34387408
IT AINT ME! IT AINT ME! AINT NO SENATORS SON NO!

>>34387394
>95% white
>London 15% White.
When was was England 95% white?
Oh and U.S. census says were 72.4% white so keep that damage control.

>>34387423
SOME FOLKS ARE BORN, SIIILVER SPOON IN HAND

LORD KNOWS THEY HELP THEMSELVES, THOUGH

>>34387408
>deliberate strategy
>vs not knowing the battlefield for shit
Keep trying.

>>34387419
Canadian armoured corps.

not really, its small by your measurement, but the british MOD owns 2% of their landmass to train on.

London as a whole is 45% white british, the Uk is 80% white british.

>>34387409
>implying they had a choice

>>34387434
> thinking London = all of England

Thats like saying LA is an accurate portrayal of population by ethnicity...oh wait...

File: 341a39c3e1110f9e423265ba3256b041.jpg (88KB, 500x501px) Image search: [Google]

88KB, 500x501px

>>34387394
Say goodbye to Scotland, Ireland, Gibraltar, and probably the Falklands. You are in free fall.
You tried to tank the white race and guess what. Germany is in its rightful place as leaders of the European peoples.
Canada stands with our Nordic brothers not you soccer faggot crackling drunks.
Crawl back into your bottles and sing about ruling the seas a century ago.

>>34386376
so if dude number one gets wounded/killed and two is right on his ass, isn't 2 gonna end up tripping on 1 and now theyre both dead?

>>34387452
> Implying you do anything but shit talk

>>34387458
> germany
> described as anything but the desolate infested wasteland it has been for the last few years

O I am laffin

>>34387458
>>34387458
>Say goodbye to Scotland, Ireland, Gibraltar, and probably the Falklands. You are in free fall.
>You tried to tank the white race and guess what. Germany is in its rightful place as leaders of the European peoples.
>Canada stands with our Nordic brothers not you soccer faggot crackling drunks.
>Crawl back into your bottles and sing about ruling the seas a century ago.
Loose it to fucking who? the scottish independence movement is broke
Ireland already has its Independence, northern Ireland is now more loyal than ever before
Gibraltar would mean all out war with spain
Any invasion of the falklands is likely to be a slaughter

Canada is about as nordic as france is you mong

>>34385657
Something about how they crawled in through a hole in the wall and the front door is still closed makes me really like this image.

>>34387491
KYS no guns plastic paddy

>>34387450
No just no
Canadian Armoured instructors are guaranteed not British.
We use German tanks with American turret optics
American tactics.
I have never even seen a British soldier other than one I carried out of an exercise with frost bite and hypothermia rambling on about how he did a Norwegian winter certification.

>>34387504
sssshhhhh! he doesn't know!

Honestly a bit curious about this myself and might keep an open mind about when this started. I would think it evolved around hostage situations, since the tactics go from higher organizations toward police departments, because back toward the 60-70's police would encircle radicals and just have shoot out/sieges until the place caught on fire. I guess that happened up till the 90's. I would guess a lot of it comes down to smaller units with guys crazy enough to do that successfully enough that their command would continue to let them do it while developing tactics off what they do.

>>34387519
O' I be Laffin!

File: 1494074525263.jpg (178KB, 807x536px) Image search: [Google]

178KB, 807x536px

British saved the Jews and got their reward.

>>34385641
>pioneered by counter terrorism units from various western countries

This.

When units were specifically tasked with hostage rescue missions, they realized they needed to come up with new tactics capable of rapidly overwhelming enemy threats in order to reduce risk to the hostages. Dividing a room up into sectors and flooding it with men is the fastest way you can put guns on target, and the faster you do that, the less time the target has to engage the team, and any hostages.

The only problem with this approach is that if a room is wired to blow, you risk the entire team once they've all entered the room. That's why standard infantry practices didn't take this approach, and used a much more measured and conservative technique when tasked to clear blocks and blocks of buildings in the past.

>>34385633
>If they were developped in WW1/2 those wars wouldn't be such a meat grinder

In WWII the standard way to clear rooms was by grenades first. Soviets often used two to ensure better coverage. In WWII civilian casualties didn't matter much. Winning did.

>>34387565
> Live in the countryside
Guns, tra'ors, no poor people and fresh air.

>>34387494
Loose it to fucking who? the scottish independence movement is broke.
>>no its got oil
Ireland already has its Independence, northern Ireland is now more loyal than ever before.
>>they can be loyalist and dead in a civil war
Gibraltar would mean all out war with Spain.
>> not Spain the E.U. and its on the table in the brexit negotiations
Any invasion of the falklands is likely to be a slaughter.
>>for Who? It won't be like last time china, Russia, North Korea all would love to arm an enemy of Britain. I wouldn't mind slotting a few bongs if it was legal.

>>34387646
> greentexting your own answers
cheers did my job for me

Diagrams and movement map all you want when the shit hits the fan its grenade then flood in or spray and pray.

>>34387646
> Scottish oil gone down the drain
> SNP lost popularity
> A stupid comment for NI considering the DUP are in westminster
> EU offensive? o' am i laffin
> thats fucking stupid

>>34386346
>i'm south african you tozzer

Same thing. Once part of the Empire, your soul can never leave.

Things are better today for the infantry, as now we have shit like hellfire missiles, JDAMS, and even precision munitions that can be fired from indirect fire assets. If you're dumb enough to shoot at my guys from a building, then I'm not going to send them in to clear you out, I'm just going to isolate that building so you can't escape and then call for high explosives to drop the roof on your head. Infantry could do that back in the day, but we sure as fuck can today.

Never send good men to do what good high explosives can do better.

>>34387720
*couldn't do the back in the day

>>34387273
that thread turned into a British squaddie reunion.

>>34387368
>british forces are still considered one of the most professional and elite forces
by whom?

>>34387459
It's an occupational hazard

>>34387594
this
granade first
or if you dont have enough just spray a mag with a ppsh41 whyle entering

>>34388007
Anyone who has ever worked with them or fought against them

File: 1470625940529.png (2MB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1920x1080px

>>34387459
You're trained to not stop. If your buddy falls, you ignore him and hope his plates catch a few rounds on the way down because of the danger in losing your focus for anything. Once the first man goes in, everyone does. It's stupid and suicidal, but so is running into a building where a guy hiding in some rubble has a PKM pointed at the door.

During my time in the Army, more than any other thing, clearing a room was drilled the hardest. You would sprint into a room for hours getting it perfect. If there was no room, you just laid 550 cord out on teh ground in a square.

>>34389024
For some reason this reminded me of that greentext of a Colour sergeant stepping over minetaped out room layouts and whispering "I'm a ghost I'm gonna rape you" into people's ears

>>34389024
Clearly the ideal situation is to always keep rooms guarded by a single guy with a PKM hiding in a cardboard box to absorb flashbangs and directly in front of the door (nobody is that stupid, clearly!). Everyone will just keep running straight into the meat grinder.

>>34389168
There's a story about the PKM. That happened to one of my NCO's when he was still a private and there was still action in Afghanistan and Iraq.

A guy was hiding in the corner with a PKM pointed at the door. The first man through caught a burst of fire from it. Both of his femoral arteries were hit, and he bled out in less time than it took for them to clear the room. They followed their training, stepped over his bleeding body, and got done with the room.

Clearing rooms is scary shit. I think, when not taking into account IEDs or suicide, clearing rooms was the deadliest place a soldier could be because of how easy it is to defend against guys running through the door. At least one person was going to die nearly every time against a prepared enemy.

File: 1469130970433.png (12KB, 640x640px) Image search: [Google]

12KB, 640x640px

>>34389024
but sergeant what if they're up in the rafters, how do we check the ceiling?!

>>34389356
Joking aside that training was a good day, got a bunch of cqb tips from the instructors

>>34389231
So why did the rest not die?

Did the guy suffer a malfunction or something? I don't see how one pointman died instead of the entire team.

>>34389231
Did they issue grenades/flashbangs/breaching charges/ any of that fancy shit?

>>34389356
a kid asked this when we were doing room clearing on MSG

response was "well cpl anon if batman wants you fucking dead then just lay down" then they started calling him crouching tiger hidden achmed

>>34389419
probably didnt occur to the guy that other people would willingly run in right after the point man

>>34389444
Our instructor had a sense of humor too. He made us check the ceilings after we did it all.

>>34387594
>In WWII the standard way to clear rooms was by grenades first. Soviets often used two to ensure better coverage. In WWII civilian casualties didn't matter much. Winning did.

This.

File: 1459604355193.jpg (29KB, 453x604px) Image search: [Google]

29KB, 453x604px

>>34386041
>7.62 too much because they penetrated too much
>9mm, used almost ubiquitously by CQC units in sidearms and in the old days of SMGs, mostly in MP5's and the like, not suitable because it wasn't long enough range even though it was close enough and usually just the sidearm if range was an issue
>7.62's problem is overpen but you don't mention that for shotguns, spread being a problem in close quarters

>Wrecking a thread with caliber wars shit that's also literally false

Please never post again.

>>34385657
This pic makes me really miss day of defeat source

File: laughing_in_cat.jpg (186KB, 1073x1073px) Image search: [Google]

186KB, 1073x1073px

>>34389419
He was probably shot by the second guy just as he shot the first. Clearing rooms is done quick, and everyone in line is expected to be right on the ass of the person in front of him.

Whatever the case, they shot him, survived, and told the story. Granted, he could have been lying out of his ass to make his deployment sound cooler, but that's just a risk we have to take with war stories.

>>34389386
The funnest part was when you got to be OPFOR and it became a game of thinking up the most insane ways to trick the guys clearing the rooms.

>"Kill" one of the guys clearing then switch places with his body, playing dead until the next team passes by
>Following them around through the sound of them kicking open doors, stacking up behind them as they get ready to clear another room, and whispering softly in the last guy's ear that you're going in dry
>Making a trash fort, hiding in it, and bursting out shouting ASSALAMUALAIKUM FRIEND AMERICANS when they run in

Part of me wishes I was one of the three guys send to Hohenfels to be OPFOR for three years. It always sounded like a really chill post, but I can imagine the constant rotations becomes unbearable.

>>34389435
>Did they issue grenades/flashbangs/breaching charges

Depends on the unit.

Most conventional units don't get bangers or demo of any kind unless they're an engineer unit.

Frags are issued sometimes, unless the command thinks they're too much of a risk to non-combatants.

>>34390008
What I've gotten from playing SWAT 4 endlessly is that you should never enter a room without flashbangs, CS gas, or some other form of preparation to incapacitate anyone who would otherwise be pointing their gun at the fatal funnel.

>>34385657
fugg
That Nazi is probably pissing himself right now, completely surrounded, outnumbered, and alone.
Gives me anxiety just looking at him

File: IMG_4122.jpg (227KB, 964x667px) Image search: [Google]

227KB, 964x667px

>>34385739
>WW1. Room needs cleared.

>Level town just in case.

File: Bayonet Training.jpg (46KB, 623x384px) Image search: [Google]

46KB, 623x384px

>>34385616
CQB in WWI probably involved your entire platoon rushing in a room and bayonetting its occupants.

File: IMG_4104.jpg (57KB, 610x407px) Image search: [Google]

57KB, 610x407px

>>34387394
That 35 a day is how we're keeping the brown population down.

You really think white people kill each other like that when there isn't a war going on?

File: IMG_4124.jpg (725KB, 800x668px) Image search: [Google]

725KB, 800x668px

>>34387341
Communists are atheist bud.

>>34386813
A army of retarded children could have defeated the Argentine army. Fuck off you pissy limey

>>34390028
Works alright against rubes. anyone who's prepared and not tarded is going to light up the funnel and logical place to stack up on the wall as soon as they hear the grenade come in.

>>34390925
No, an army of retarded children DID defeat the Argentine army.

>>34385616
For some reason I thought this was Loss.

>>34390958
>anyone who's prepared and not tarded is going to light up the funnel and logical place to stack up on the wall as soon as they hear the grenade come in.

>implying people will perfectly keep their nerves under control and not flinch at all when a flashbang fucks their shit up
>implying some guy with a hairtrigger ready to shoot at the slightest noise is not going to shoot early ever
yeah no

>>34389356
>insert Steven Seagal room clearing webm here

>>34391136
If there's only one point of entry and you start firing before the actual grenade goes off they're going to probably fall back. Same if you start firing when the grenade goes off, awful large and startling sound for a guy who's sitting or prone in a spot where the #1 or #2 guys aren't likely to see as easily or engage as easily.. Ever watch videos where swat teams encounter more resistance than they expect on entry? seems like they usually get a bad case of "i dont wanna get shot"-itis when rifle rounds start flying through sheet rock at em.

>>34391222
>If there's only one point of entry and you start firing before the actual grenade goes off they're going to probably fall back.
A typical military issue flashbang like the Mk13 has a very short fuse, like 1.5s. In a dark room you don't even know what happened before the thing goes off.

>Same if you start firing when the grenade goes off, awful large and startling sound for a guy who's sitting or prone in a spot where the #1 or #2 guys aren't likely to see as easily or engage as easily..
Sounds like you've never done this before. By the time the bang goes off you're already moving into the room, it's too late to stop cause you have a whole stack of guys right behind you.

>Ever watch videos where swat teams encounter more resistance than they expect on entry? seems like they usually get a bad case of "i dont wanna get shot"-itis when rifle rounds start flying through sheet rock at em.

Most SWAT teams are trained like shit, frankly speaking.

>>34391258
hmmm, I was under the impression most people went into the room after the bang as opposed to flashing the first two guys. If the other person has even a moderate amount experience/training as compared to the entry team and has prepared ahead of time they could certainly make it difficult for an entry team.

Of course if you're talking about a wanted felon with a hi-point or Delta popping hadji it's pretty unlikely. On the other hand if it's your county SWAT team trying to take out some crazy nam/iraq/ghanistan vet with time to prepare and one narrow kill zone to cover then it's kinda a possibility you know.

Not exactly like this exact kinda thing hasn't happened before and all that.

>>34387594
Or just use a flamethrower on it/demolish the building before you even get there. I believe in the Korean war there was a general who studied up on the old urban combat tactics and came to the conclusion that the best way to take a city was to demolish it block by block

>>34391374
>hmmm, I was under the impression most people went into the room after the bang as opposed to flashing the first two guys.
You don't wait around and react to it, you go and the timing works out. And yes it's very common for the first guys in to be exposed to the flash, it's not a big deal unless you look directly at it.

>On the other hand if it's your county SWAT team trying to take out some crazy nam/iraq/ghanistan vet with time to prepare and one narrow kill zone to cover then it's kinda a possibility you know.
This is completely beside the point. People like to argue that immediate entry room clearing doesn't work because "muh prepared enemy" but in the case of a known prepared enemy the limited entry alternatives are still far inferior to exercising your intelligence and using other methods to distract, confuse, or misdirect the enemy. People like to make a big deal of Delta taking some losses in Iraq but they don't realize that they still use immediate entry methods, they are just very discerning when it comes to choosing appropriate entry points to minimize risk to the assault elements.

>Not exactly like this exact kinda thing hasn't happened before and all that.
??? what is the point of this statement

>>34390624
More like cumbing diamonds!

>>34391445
>??? what is the point of this statement

It seems that your posts are suggesting that if a five man stack tries to make entry into a room and uses a distraction device that it's so likely as to be impossible that one person could stop that advance or cause them to retreat even with training, equipment, and planning.

Frankly this both seems theoretically and factually ridiculous as this sort of thing has happened in the past where an individual has stopped or delayed an entry with return fire or other means.

>>34391725
>It seems that your posts are suggesting that if a five man stack tries to make entry into a room and uses a distraction device that it's so likely as to be impossible that one person could stop that advance or cause them to retreat even with training, equipment, and planning.

That's not my intention and it seems to me that you're making a lot of assumptions about what I mean instead of just asking. I never said anything about going up against a trained professional or a veteran or whatever. You started off by talking about "anyone who's prepared and not tarded", which is the adversary I was basing my statements around. Lots of "prepared and not tarded" people have been shot to death in CONUS or overseas using immediate entry tactics.

As for causing a team to retreat, as a general rule a well trained team is going to get inside and die inside or never go in in the first place, because once you get that momentum going, stopping is just going to reduce your odds of survival. You can't turn around in the threshold of a door with a second guy hot on your heels and moving fast. If you're going to beat feet, everyone's gonna get inside and then try to exit once the team is in.

>Frankly this both seems theoretically and factually ridiculous as this sort of thing has happened in the past where an individual has stopped or delayed an entry with return fire or other means.
It is because you're assuming things I never stated.

>>34392164
>Lots of "prepared and not tarded" people have been shot to death in CONUS or overseas using immediate entry tactics.
meant
Lots of "prepared and not tarded" people have been shot to death in CONUS or overseas by people using immediate entry tactics.

>>34392177
>>34391725

It's almost like "holding a room from an assault" or "assaulting a room" are fucking dangerous, even with good training and equipment.

There's a reason why "there is an asshole in that building" is best responded to by "can't be an asshole in that building if there is no building"

File: 0170629010656.jpg (122KB, 828x953px) Image search: [Google]

122KB, 828x953px

>>34385657
this is really cool drawing

this kind of entree is to take control of the room in a second, in order to prevent the bad guy from killing hossitage.

>>34387285
But but but, what about that time when we saved Europe from Hitler? And American Revolution and shiite.

>>34390028
You enter room if you don't expect enemy there. Tactics are just for the rare case when enemy is actually there so you would be ready fro resistance. If you know for sure that there is enemies in the room you drop explosives on them until they are dead.

>>34385889
He get shot.

>>34387408
What is Iraq