Traditional(?) vs. Bullpup

>>34299517
I think it'll just swing between the two forever. Bullpups may be dying, they'll be reborn one day after some technological advancement makes them good again.

doesn't the kriss vector have an unusual design where it feeds the rounds with some kind of curved feed ramp? i don't know the specifics off the top of my head, but i feel like it would be a bullpup if there weren't technical reasons preventing it

File: GpeEXny.gif (182KB, 480x210px) Image search: [Google]

182KB, 480x210px

>>34299542

Kinda. It's mostly a recoil system that diverts the forces downward instead of directly back into the shooter's shoulder. It's really not all that complex, but there doesn't seem to be any reason for it to be in front of the trigger considering how tiny the barrel ends up being.

>>34299542
>>34299554

Actually, looking at my own fucking post, it's pretty obvious that having it in a bullpup configuration would cause much more barrel flip while also lifting the bore-axis a lot higher.

I'm a fucking moron.

>>34299554
Is that the same kinda operation as that russki bakelite thing?

File: liner 2.jpg (70KB, 825x602px) Image search: [Google]

70KB, 825x602px

>>34299517
Bullpups are superior for long range weapons, the reduced overall length but same barrel length means less barrel sway.

Conventional are superior as close range weapons as the weight distribution means you can pivot them outside a the shoulder.

To me recoil control is arguably better in a bullpup.

But the fire control is much better having it near your thumb on a conventional.

Lastly conventional weapons are much better for affixing and fighting with bayonets, because you can clasp the stock.

But the Bullpup (especially the SA80) is superior for bashing someones brains out due to that rearward mass, & clearly performed when Used during civil disobedience during the troubles. (however t thin stock like on the EM2 would work)

I think that in the future bullpups will fade but will make a massive comeback after a while.

My reasoning being that M4s/AKs are still going good, and business is only going to get better.

But the next big jump in armament technology, whether it be caseless, Coilgun, railgun, plasma or laser... the deficiencies in range or having an awkwardly long rifle would mean militaries turn back to bullpups to provide a one rifle for both close & long ranges.

Thats what i think people don't realise, yeah at home you can have 10 different ARs for performing specialised purposes, but the military can only afford one due to logistics.

The ideal military service rifle would be:
> Ambidextrous fire control just above the grip
> Downward case ejection / Left & right that flips at a switch
> No longer than 30 inches
> Ambidextrous cocking handle with a FELIN/G36 style

>>34299542
Still waiting for a 5.56/7.62 kriss action.

>>34299517
That actually looks good.

>>34299621
>Bullpups are superior for long range weapons, the reduced overall length but same barrel length means less barrel sway.

>Conventional are superior as close range weapons as the weight distribution means you can pivot them outside a the shoulder.

You got it backwards dude, conventional weapons are better when the length of the gun doesn't matter ie. pretty much anywhere other than indoors. Pullpups offer a weapon that can have a rifle length barrel while still being very short.

>>34299935
> Reduced sway
Its nothing to do with the barrel, its to do with the overall length.

A longer overall length increases sway.

if the bullet travels 100 feet and you're a single degree off then you're missing by about 5 feet.

You can imagine how much farther you'll miss if you're off if you are off by more than a single degree.

Its also affected by the centre of mass, the father rearward it is the further reduced sway.

It mostly affects by decreasing human error.

>>34299517
>It seems like the bullpup argument is starting to die down.
autism comes in cycles of waves.

>>34299517
There is one argument for non-bullpups that is going to get stronger over time. People are going to have armor, and they will eventually have shoulder armor, or gear covering their shoulder. But there is still the necessity to fix the rifle in the crook of your arm. So there will be a gap between the chest armor and whatever is on the shoulder. So into that slot the buttstock must fit, a slot which will moreover get progressively narrower and deeper over time as more armor and chest and neck junk gets added. Bullpups suck at this.

>>34299554
but the whacky buffer system would almost be pointless if it were to be located behind the trigger.

>>34300017
A bullpup is shorter for less sway, shorter for fewer collisions on door frames, more weight towards the rear which means less fatigue...

There is literally nothing worse about the bullpup other than potential trigger issues and MUH RELOADS LIKE GRAMPA DID.

>>34300059
>thinking infantry will remain relevant in the future

Robots with bullpup guns is what we'll get.

>>34300462
Robot infantry is still infantry.

>>34299517
The SAR21 is a working bullpup rifle. Even Based Ian endorsed.

But then again it's used by a tiny nation-state made half of urban environment and half of jungle.

>>34300017
What the hell are you talking about when you mean sway? Also, i'd say the ideal center of gravity is between your hands, this way both of your hands have to support the same amount of weight.

>>34300059
There's literally nothing stopping people from adding an inch long spacer to the buttstock of a bullpup rifle that is a bit narrower than the receiver.

>>34299517
Bullpup a best. The stock is just wasted space (on everything except that one retarded ass gun with a spring in the stock)

You wouldn't drive a car with a 10 foot long pole sticking out of the back for no reason would you? Why have unnecessary overall length?

Is that a m-16?

bullpups are always gonna be unpopular because mallninja faggots can only stand things shaped like M4s

anyone got non-bullpup photoshop of L85A2?

>>34300017
This isn't a video game, swayy isn't a thing if you don't gave parkinsons

>>34300952
When you hold the rifle, the rifle sways, right?

Well usually the sway is around the centre of mass, which in an conventional weapon is around the mag well, and behind the hand guard in a bullpup

So if you rotate a rifle between its centre of mass & mass distribution points, deviates more from 0 degrees between the muzzle & stock more than an m4... But on the other hand if you pull in your manipulation point to the mag well then the pivot changes and it sways more.

So at range it only gets worse.

This is why front mounted bipods & rear mounted monopods exist.

Its not something you'd

>>34301142
Do you even shoot?

When long range shooters come up with their personalised datasheet (which includes human deviation) it really does come into account.

File: IMG_6265.jpg (1MB, 1542x2300px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1542x2300px

>>34300462
That's dangerous thinking

>>34299554
>It's mostly a recoil system that diverts the forces downward instead of directly back into the shooter's shoulder

Not exactly, that's just how some chose to sell the design.the idea was to put the whole action in line with the shooters hand. It's the ultimate "muh bore axis".

>>34301322
Have you ever fired a rifle before in your life? Reality is literally the exact opposite of what you're describing.

When firing off hand, both conventional and bullpup rifles move around the combined center of mass of the rifle and shooter, ie, in the torso over the hips near the end of the stock. A bullpup with its rearward center of gravity has less forward mass and inertia to resist small movements at the muzzle end and consequently will sway more. They will also tend to exhibit more torque in recoil because of this depending on the design (most mitigate this through extremely low centered in-line barrels, trading height over bore offset for less rise in recoil). This is why bullpups tend to be regarded as very 'pointable' - the muzzle is easily moved due to their rear set mass. Good for up close, not so good for far away.

If you're shooting supported, the rifle moves between the supporting points of contact, typically the stock and a bipod or barricade at the front handguard. In this case, conventional rifles also have the stability advantage because of their overall length. The longer the distance between the points of contact, the less angular deviation is created by any movement offset at either point of contact.

Now I'm a big bullpup fan, including for long range work. The DT SRS is one of the sexiest things on the planet to me, but holy fuck, get your shit straight. Karl and Ian's critiques of the X-95 were dead on with regards to bullpups and long range performance. We're still waiting for a gas bullpup that is accurate and shootable enough to really benefit from the ballistic improvement while still having the short overall length.

>>34302728
>Have you ever fired a rifle before in your life?...
Yes, even though you're never going to believe it i shot for my national U16 team when i was 14.

> A bullpup with its rearward center of gravity...
Thats why rifles like the L85 have the grip 45% of the way from the rear and grip a third from the front.

>They will also tend to exhibit more torque in recoil
I tend to agree, the L85 is especially guilty of this, but in a latteral movement, it tends to want to point left or right rather than up down or even backward for that matter

>This is why bullpups tend to be regarded as very 'pointable' - the muzzle is easily moved due to their rear set mass. Good for up close, not so good for far away.
i tend to disagree with regards to my previous statements

From my experience in the sandbox, i found that our '80s were fantastic for ranged shooting (especially standing), but somewhat clumsy up front on the otherhand the LMT Sharpshooters were someonwhat awkward to use at range as you tend to tire quickly, but were handy at close range to the way you can pivot them through the centre of the rifle.

> If you're shooting supported, the rifle ...
I do suppose you have a point for this, but surely this proves my point, if on a bullpup you use your shoulder as a point of contact and use your front hand to aim with, using your shooting hand for stability & trigger pulls only

>DT SRS
These any good? I've seen one at my DT SRS in 338 in my LGS, but i've already got a .338 eater and i've been tempted to by an AUG too, but i've heard bad things about its accuracy
> X95
I'm not a fan of it.

>We're still waiting for a gas bullpup that is accurate and shootable enough to really benefit from the ballistic improvement while still having the short overall length.
The L85 & L86 exist, but will never be released for parts kits, & will probably be relegated to those hermetically sealed hangers to be stored and never be seen again.

File: 1494106210188.jpg (64KB, 1384x599px) Image search: [Google]

64KB, 1384x599px

>>34302923
L85 is a shit design though, i mean they copy an AR-18 and somehow it ends up being almost a motherfucking kilo heavier like wtf, they would have gotten better results by just taking an off the shelf AR-18, removing the stock, moving the pistol grip forwards, and adding trigger linkages.

File: standard config L85.jpg (198KB, 800x303px) Image search: [Google]

198KB, 800x303px

>>34301129
this one?

File: Nicks wrecked 80.jpg (45KB, 480x360px) Image search: [Google]

45KB, 480x360px

>>34303009
>L85 is a shit design though, i mean they copy an AR-18 and somehow it ends up being almost a motherfucking kilo heavier like wtf, they would have gotten better results by just taking an off the shelf AR-18, removing the stock, moving the pistol grip forwards, and adding trigger linkages.
Says the person whos probably never fired one
Its as reliable as an AK
Accurate as an M16
Solid as a FAL

Its a good rifle, and i've never seen one jam, not once in 12 years. I've seen the occasional misfeed caused by magazines

Take pic for example, Mate got hit by an IED whilst providing top cover from a mole coffin, ambush started, and he managed to return fire from said weapon, granted it didn't shoot straight, but it returned to service and made to look brand new.

>>34303072
>it is good design but you need germans to fix it

>>34303151
>Step 1 Get BAE to buy out HK
> Step 2 Force HK to hire the original design team
> Give original design team advice on how they could have done better
> Redesign
> tested
> Rebuilt at BAEs special materials & fabrication centre in the UK
> Give H&K parts contract
> H&K now looks good
> BAE sells some H&K shares at a profit
> Everyone wins

File: hk_g3_bk_concept_rifle_by_stunna_k-d6fszio.jpg (74KB, 1191x670px) Image search: [Google]

74KB, 1191x670px

bullpups are aesthetic

>>34303072
you don't need to lie about the l85
They are as reliable as an m14
Accurate as an ak
And a solid as a... l85? Of the 4 I've seen in real life 2 had broken furniture and 1 had a broken charging handle and it was an a2
Do they replace that stuff when it breaks ever?

>>34303245
>taxpayers
>dead soldiers
>military embarrassment
>soon to be replaced by a direct AR derivative

But hey at least you showed that guy on 4chan

>>34303350
>soon to be replaced by a direct AR derivative
que?

>>34303324
Fuck off cadet. nobody cares about 98s

>>34303350
>taxpayers
TFW enfield was sold at a profit
>dead soldiers
nope, none
>military embarrassment
not any more
>soon to be replaced by a direct AR derivative
no its not L129 has only replaced the L86s & RM FPG needed L119 so that they could fire rounds that wouldn't accidentally damage ships machinery.

them, RMP CPs, & MI only use L119s so they can stay covert & pass themselves off as PMCs, but would use 80's when embedded with regular units for the same reasons.

nice try

>>34303357
You haven't heard? Yeah everyone in nato just wants to use an AR now
France already did it
Britbong has been considering it for a while
And every single operator unit, team, task force, special patch party boys all use ARs
And when they aren't using ARs they are using a derivative
Welcome to the 2020s
Contemporary small arms have been perfected I'm so sorry
You'll just have to wait for the next tech tree loading bar

>>34303465
>soon to be replaced by a direct AR derivative
que?

>>34303476
Why are you greentexting WRONG?

>>34303465
>Britbong has been considering it for a while
no... they haven't

>>34303503
>soon to be replaced by a direct AR derivative
que?

>>34303508
Uh yes
They have
Since 1985 they've been trying to find a way out of that MISTAKE
Your pride in your country blinds you in the same way it blinds burgers to the m14s shittiness

>>34303525
>russianchicken.jpg

File: 22982891-6CAA-41D3-A922-B1CEBF5E00EF-38467-000017BA21429D77.jpg (105KB, 600x800px) Image search: [Google]

105KB, 600x800px

>>34303513
Here's your (you)
The poster has replied to your spam
How do you react?

>>34303539
Orange is not a weapon.

File: IMG_2143.jpg (61KB, 720x302px) Image search: [Google]

61KB, 720x302px

>>34303537
>I'll c... call him a ch.. chicken!
>good now attack him personally!
>I bbb... bet you're a R... rus.. russian chicken!

Clearly I'm amongst people of my insane intelligence

File: Capture4.jpg (58KB, 578x483px) Image search: [Google]

58KB, 578x483px

>>34303525
nope the British army has been using ARs since before that for black bag stuff.

The MOD has already has a tender for upgrade design the '80

Stop being delusional The AR is average, & is only bought because its affordable or you can nag america & get them for free

>>34303609
Are you a cuckold?

>>34303619
dunno, but your father is, and you would be but you're too ugly girls, so you're reluctantly gay but still a virgin

>>34303684
hmmm... interesting...

>>34303609
The only delusions going on ITT is the delusion that the SA80 weapon system hasn't been and continues to be a colossal failure.
Name one thing the l85a2 has going for it
Mechanical accuracy? no.
Lightweight? NO.
Durable? Did I mention in Ian's development series on the SA80 that 2 examples of a dozen had broken furniture? What a coincidence
Service reliability? Yes!
Hypothetical mud tornado reliability? :(

But hey it doesn't burst into flames anymore so I guess it's a "good" design right?

>>34303068
Yeah this
thanks mate