What kinds of firearms would be available in a post apocalyptic world?

All the ones that were available before the apocalypse. And more because people will loot government armories.

All of the ones available beforehand

the REAL question is what happens when the ammo runs out.

>>34296070
anything left over, in various stages of degrading condition jury rigged like some african ak-47s are

you wouldnt really see much in the way of pipe guns because they wouldnt have ammunition to shoot - instead you'd see rather dubious custom made ammunition, probably gone back to black powder being fired out of 9mm or .45cal and shotguns

which wont cycle the weapon, so they'd be single shot pills, but you would just rack the slide after each shot to load another from the magazine

however some of this stuff may just blow the weapon up too.

Check out the 80s movie "Cyborg" with Jean Claude Van Damme. They didnt use guns. Him and the gang leader instead had pneumatic air rifles with multiple barrels for single shots with crossbow bolts. Only 4 or 6 shots but thats better than nothing.

Somebody -might- start making Musket pipe rifles out of spare scrap pipes, of varying calibers, that and shotguns out of the larger tubes.

Nuggets

>>34296220
>when the ammo runs out

It won't. It won't be as reliable, or as varied as now and it'll be very expensive probably, but people will figure out a way to run the machines on alternative means and keep at least some ammo production going. Stamping cases, mixing priming compound and other operations is not some kind of alchemy unfathomable to mere mortals.

And the various government armories hold tens of billions of rounds. Add what is made for the civilian market, and it'll be a long time before you start using "Bullet Farmer Brand" ammo.

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>>34296238
breech loading weapons might pretty much be gold, because they're more flexible about what you can run through them

shotgun shells are easy to manufacture, whether its a paper shell or taking old spent plastic cases

when it comes to ammunition the primer is the biggest problem with it, but if you have some smart chemist teacher set up with enough cool stuff, comfy enough that he wont get shot by looters - you could have primer manufacturing going on

(ive heard match heads + filed match strikers will work, a chemist would be able to figure out what those components were made of and just start making that)

some natural resources like sulphur however, they arent all that common in modern day since they all got sucked up by industry pretty quick during the industrial age

>>34296070
All the ones that are available now. Better question is what will be most prevalent over certain times.

>5 years after
AR's and looted 5.56 M4s and M16s
>10 years
Ammo starts to dry with excessive consumption of 5.56, things move towards other milsurp, homebrew stuff starts to pick up. SKS takes the title, handy and semi. Decent downgrade from what there was before. AK's for those that can manage it.
>20 years
5.56 dries up entirely, leaving 7.62x39 starting to dry up and .308 in bolt action fudd guns coming up. Kyber pass guns start turning up, rechambers for older guns, new creations off of old patterns, shady reloaded ammo picks up with these new workshops.
>50 years
.308 becomes the best available out of old fudd guns, shit was common with NATO distribution and civilian use, lots of brass for it, lots of similar cartridges that can be necked up or down to fit it, bolt actions aren't going to encourage firing more ammo than is needed, easier to maintain and so on.

>>34296220
Depends on the manufacureability of cartridge components. Things like primers and gunpowders will have to be made at a local/regional level and if there is a preexisting cottage industry of /k/emists making primers and powder (black powder and smokeless). Brass would be the limiting component with Khyber pass manufacturing techniques as localities figure out how to replicate the best they can the drawn brass processes.

The firearms chambered in blackpowder cartridges like 45-70 lever guns and single shots would do better as they tend to be simpler with huge parts more easily whittled out of steel chunks. Percussion cap muzzleloaders are complimentary arms, eschewing cartridge cases and having their state of the art heavily developed to the present day. Intermediate to these are paper cartridge needle rifles like chassepots, dryses, and other paper cartridge arms like slant breech sharps.

What was that post apoc television show where all the electricity went out? I remember they had the rank and file militia grunts being outfitted with muskets just because they were easier to make and make ammo for while they'd keep the more modern weaponry for the better soldiers and more serious situations

>>34296931
Revolution.

>>34296931

That fucking show.
>No air rifles
>No air rifles anywhere

It's as if some stupid nigger who didn't think that through created the world.

>>34297039
How difficult would it be to compress CO2 to the point of weaponization without any kind of electrical machinery? I just remember how cringe worthy the fighting and sword play was ultimately killed my interest

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>>34297277
>How difficult would it be to compress CO2 to the point of weaponization without any kind of electrical machinery?

>>34297360
also because you smugly go >BICYCLE PUMP >CO2

CO2 airguns are the weakest around and is mostly used because CO2 is easy to compress and ship and CO2 bottles were already a thing on store shelves anyway so why not use em as opposed to any other pre-compressed gas you can buy in little cartridges

normal air is more than sufficient for high power PCP guns and high end spring piston guns don't need feeding from a pressurized tank anyway, though they are a bit of an arm workout to cock at higher levels of power

as well, there's no reason you couldn't run a line from whatever atmosphere pressure tank of co2 (or other gas) to a bike pump instead of letting it feed from the air around you

>>34296931
>>34297039
did they atleast have crossbows?
pleb tier easy to use, make and strong

>>34296277
>Stamping cases, mixing priming compound and other operations is not some kind of alchemy unfathomable to mere mortals.
well, it's incredibly tedious. what will probably happen is the same thing that happens today -- someone with capital will make or buy machinery to make ammo in bulk given comparatively few workers and a source of power, and will sell it to people who similarly specialize in one thing to make money with, instead of every joe schmoe doing it themselves one round at a time and also doing every other survival thing all by themselves

economy of scale and the power of specialization, nigga

>>34297390
even normal bows would have been reasonable, and compound bows are a thing that are just kinda on store shelves and aren't completely impossible to make and string

>>34297277
>it's impossible to compress gas without electricity
how do you think they did it with the girandoni meme rifle?

>>34297390
Yeah I remember they had super gun control so the non soldiers usually used bows and crossbows

>>34297277
air rifles were first created in the 1500s, and they were even equipped to the military at some points such as this;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girandoni_air_rifle

>>34296277
This

Also keep in mind that ammunition manufacturing will be an extremely high priority when people even slightly start to get their shit back together, it's not gonna be a case of some scav in 100 years finding a reloading press, folk are going to send out teams of people to meticulously comb every inch they can to find a working press in a couple years at most.

>>34296070

>I am the scales of justice; conductor of the choir of death

Truly, is there no greater hero?

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>>34296070
Pipe shotguns chambered in 12 gauge rounds made from paper and tin cans.

Pipe is plentiful and is retardedly cheap, paper is a really common resource and is easy-ish to make from raw material, the only resource that would get scarce is the tin cans needed to make shot shells as it would probably be a while before machinery could make it again. The gunpowder and primer compound would also be a bit rare, but easy to make at least and in the early years simply be scavenged from matches.

>>34297934

Tell me more about this Camaro in the background.

>>34297959
I was fortunate enough that my friend let me take a picture with it in the background.

Please don't shoot dog.

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>>34298113

Awesome. Tell your friend he is possessed of great taste.

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Fun fact:
You can reload modern primers with strike anywhere matches.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t_7LWCFH5Gc

Blackpowder takes time to make from scratch, so try to find stump remover or sulfer.

>>34298138
Nice Geo metro fagboi

>>34296339
You can make explosives from bat poop, apparently.

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>>34298138
I'm a Chevy guy through and through, but god damnit those old Broncos are sexy as fuck.

>>34298449
haha

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>>34298138
>Dat Bronco

>>34298138
That's a nice bronco m8
'67?

>>34296070
i'd like to think we'd need to revert to making simpler firearms from the 1860s to the coming of smokeless like remington rolling blocks and beaumont revolvers

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>>34296220
Trump is president for 4 years, start buying it cheap and stacking it deep.

Srsly, Bernie2020 will due real damage to the 2A

>>34296070
Immediately after: Whatever guns you find normally, plus far more slambangs and zip guns
A generation after: Shotguns, Airguns, muzzle loaders. Easy to procure/reload/manufacture ammo, simple
Beyond: The same pattern that firearms followed before, but faster. Large Pistol Caliber BP lever actions will probably the most long lived and first industrialized weapons after the event - effective, cheap, flexible.

>>34296426
>>34296238

lol. wtf is even SHTF/the apocalypse? any scenario that would deserve the name would mean major conflict on a scale never seen before. unless it means a virus that kills 90% of humanity dead within hours (dos not turn them into zombies), ammo will be burned through in no time. all you ammo speculations are vastly over-optimistic. there are dudes in the ukraine now who go through 2 spam cans of 54539 a day.

>>34299510
BP 3030 lever action will become the new ARs/AKs...

>>34299510
You seem to think a Flood event collapse is possible anymore, there will be a balkenization at wordt but even when everything was collapsing in Germany at the end of the war shit still was being made and delivered to a government that barely existed.

Black powder won't make a comeback because that would require everyone suddenly forgetting everything.

>>34299630
>Black powder won't make a comeback

DIY homebrew nitrocellulose may very well be considered the same as BP in the context of autoloaders...

>>34299638
You might have a point there but it'll still be vastly cleaner.

>>34296070
Plenty of preexisting firearms in varying states of disrepair alongside fuckloads of pipe shotguns, black powder guns, and plenty of other improvised firearms. You'd probably also see plenty of hardware store cannons assuming there's places you can still find larger diameter steel pipes, especially if you can nest them together.

The real question is how long until the ammo runs out and can people figure out how to make more basic black powder after that major of an event. If there's still manuals and info like that lot of groups will be going back a century and a half at the very least as far as firearms technology goes.

>>34299666
Just shut the fuck up if you have no idea what you are talking about. If people can make nitre then they can make nitrocellulose with just some basic tweaking and a couple chemistry books.

Do you think in a post collapse theres going to be tons of pottassium nitrate and sulfur laying around? Fuck no, that's going to be used for farming and any naceant government will seek control of fertilizer plants to feed people and arm themselves unless a virus kills anyone with above 70 IQ

>>34299630
>n Germany at the end of the war shit still was being made and delivered to a government that barely existed.
Germany only lost ~9% of its total population. That is well below the value people think about when they talk about an apocalypse. A nuclear war or super-plague will kill much more than that.

>Black powder won't make a comeback because that would require everyone suddenly forgetting everything.
BP is easy to industrialize and accessible to many. Clean burning nitrocellulose isn't exactly easy to do without the chemical infrastructure

>>34299701
Black powder isn't any easier than nitrocellulose based powders once you get into industrial processes unless you are talking complete collapse with a sizable portion of the population dead and what's left actively fighting each other.

I know you dig cowboy aestics but you're being retarded.

>>34296070
Here's my answer.
Depends on how fucked the world gets, but,
Literally the only guns on earth will be ones made before the happening.

By the time people are using pipe guns en masse you will be long fucking dead or innabunker.
Right?

>>34299034
Bernie isn't gonna win in 2020 because kanye will win

>>34297377
You can literally buy a .50 caliber air rifle at cabelas

Hey wait a minute.
What about .22lr?

I am sure that billions of rounds of that shit exists.

>>34299679
Show me on the doll where my opinion touched you anon-kyun.

Point is people will make shit to make shiny rock thing fly down tube real fast with loud blam and fire to put hole in bad thing. Black powder isn't exactly some mystical thing exclusive to wizards, alchemists, or factory production and as a species we've been making it for a very long fucking time. All you need is the materials and the know how and you can keep shooting or blowing shit up. Science books, survival guides, even some history books may have recipes to make it when you've got fuck all to work with. You'll probably be able to find at least one book with all you need to know for making all sorts of goodies. You may very well end up making some seriously old style shit but you can make it.

Also, there will be FUCKTONS of stuff left over all over the damn place even in an apocalypse scenario, shit we used pretty much everywhere doesn't just stop existing because we nuked each other. You might have to dig it out of serious rubble piles or find it in formerly rural farming areas nobody cared to nuke but shit's going to be all over, not isolated in a factory or two. What's even better for the survivors is there's a hell of a lot less people to fight when it comes to taking shit they want. It's entirely possibly you might be the only surviving human within 100 miles of your current position and there will be all sorts of stuff just waiting for you to find it.

>>34299776
None of this explains why black powder will make a comeback and makes a better argument for smokeless.

>>34299720
Its an apocalypse. Complete collapse is implied. Post-SHTF is one thing and even includes things like a tornado fucking up your area or civil unrest. An Apocalypse is something comparable to Global Thermonuclear War

BP is very accessible. Wood charcoal is easy to make, potassium nitrate can be manufactured from agricultural wastes, and there are enormous stockpiles of sulfur worldwide as well as exploitable mineral assets all over the place (by-production of sulfur from oil and oil sand refining have made them non-profitable, but they're absolutely still there).

>>34299821
Before I waste my time further do you know what goes into nitrocellulose powders?

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>>34298399
Nigga that shits corrosive though.

>>34299830
>nitrocellulose powders

easiest shit would be gun cotton - and it's more dangerous to make and more unstable than BP. unless you have a cold creek at your disposal to wash the cotton, you shouldn't try it.

>>34299800
Because smokeless is harder to make on small scale

Blackpowder can literally be made on a farm

>>34297039
>>34296931
>>34297006
I'm pissed that show was so shit. The concept had potential but the writing was terrible, characters unlikable and then after a while they threw away what made the concept interesting and just gave all the bad guys modern guns with no real explanation.

>>34299830
Not him anon, but why don't you tell us how to make nitrocellulose in Post Apocalyptia anyway?

I'd be interested to know and its its actually just as easy wouldn't that be the best way to convince him?

>>34299863
>Blackpowder can literally be made on a farm
Can vouch for this. I've tried to make my own gunpowder for fun. It was pretty crappy but it made decent firecrackers. Wasn't keen to put it through my muzzle loader just in case.

>>34299800
Anon, things you don't agree with or like can happen and will happen. I know you think X way is better but that's your opinion and not everyone shares it and not everyone will follow your way should shtf.

I guarantee there would be a resurgence of black powder weapons. You can make it on your own with technology from 1,000 years ago if you absolutely have to and it's what many people think of when they think about boomstick powder after shtf and the ammo's gone. In a post apocalyptic setting basically everything you need will be there waiting to be found and used. The materials are literally stockpiled in farms across the country. You can probably even find simple piping and other parts that would work for primitive smooth bores on those same farms if you don't have something made pre-apocalypse.

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right after shtf, all kinds of weapons, ars, aks, etc.


a few years after, most common calibres, .22, 12 gauge, .308

after that it'll be shotguns, maybe some hunting rifle rounds.


After that it'll be homemade bullets and ammunition. just look at the pakistani gun markets where they make improvised bullets and guns, with some intelligence you can make a lot of advanced shit.


50 to 100 years? The few modern guns left would be prized possessions, owned by kings, warlords, tribal leaders, etc. expect them to be almost mythical objects, like swords were back in the day. Muskets and crossbows and bows would be common. Bows and crossbows would be used for ambushes and stealth missions where you don't want to reveal your location because of noise and smoke, muskets are for when you don't care.

500 to 1000 years later it'll be medieval style technology, the few guns would be seen as gifts from the gods bestowed upon man, whole kingdoms could fight over a shitty shotgun or hi point.

>>34300465
>whole kingdoms fighting over a hi-point
What a world.

>>34300492
it'll be hilarious. hi points and shitty afghani guns will be the most treasured things in existence. what was once trash will be treasure.

>>34296220
Bows, arrows, spears, knives, axes make a HUGE comeback.

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>>34300465
>whole kingdoms could fight over a shitty shotgun or hi point.

>>34300465

A situation that would cause such a giant leap backward like what your talking about would probably just make humanity extinct. Most shtf scenarios would be a few years of civil unrest and then business as usual.

Its far harder to lose technology than it is to discover it in the modern age. This isnt the Roman times where a small group of master craftsmen know whats up. It would also have to be a global crisis and a true extinction event. In that scenario we are most likely just 100% extinct.

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>>34300513
Humanity wouldn't go extinct. Imagine that there is an economic collapse, coupled with a mini ice age and a war, nuclear bombs hit all big cities in the world and billions are wiped out.
Societal "progress" would go down the drain. Yeah, you can make stuff out of scavenged parts, but how long will those last? A car will rust down in a few hundred years at most, that means no engine and easy to get metal. Cities are nuclear sites and are fucked, humans fight over resources, I suspect there would be a strong anti technology movement ("industrialisation caused the destruction of mankind") kind of thinking, so people wouldn't want to start building cities and advancing society again.

Also keep in mind that 99% of surface ores, oil, etc has been mined. Humanity at most will go to a renaissance level of technology, but I doubt that would happen. people would go back to living in tribes again.

>>34296070
paper cartridges make a comeback

>>34300526

This situation would have to occur in literally every single major country at the same time and hit all of the major targets and all established infrastructure. Its such a huge and daunting task that it will more than likely cause irreparable damage and for all intents and purposes be an extinction event. If even a single major hub of industry is left and the world is still somewhat habitable the knowledge will trickle through whats left and it will be a speed bump for progress at best. For any of the scenario posted in that post to actually come to pass it would take such a precise and overwhelmingly calculated removal of all current technology and infrastructure it would almost never come to pass. You would either miss a few major hubs of technology that would propagate itself again or obliterate literally everything beyond any habitable levels.

Hitting the sweet spot for surviving a large event while losing all technology is such a long shot its probably nearly impossible.

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>>34296070
ar's

>>34300526
>A car will rust down in a few hundred years at most, that means no engine and easy to get metal.

rust can be smelted back into iron. anyone who'd know how to use the metal in a car to begin with would know how to do that.

>>34300584
>For any of the scenario posted in that post to actually come to pass it would take such a precise and overwhelmingly calculated removal of all current technology and infrastructure it would almost never come to pass.

this really, at least in the US.

there's a shit ton of heavy industry that's well distributed in rural "strip" areas that are outside of nuclear targets because of their military irrelevance. shit like auto plants, hose factories, spring factories, etc etc...places with all sorts of high tech tooling laying around that could be repurposed pretty easily.

even if you destroyed every large city in America, youd mostly be fucking up finance and IT, not actual industrial technology.

>>34296070
if the media has taught us anything P-90's are going to survive with us through multiple post Apocalypse settings and far into the future when were in deep space fighting space godamn aliens

>>34300584
Right, even to get that seting in fantasy scenario, you only have a window of a generation or two before any "fallout" type becomes more than unsustainable, without just becoming the actual ukraine

>>34299747
Kanye-sama is that you?

>>34299758

>The age of the Tacticool is over
>The time of the Fudd has come

I dont think you appreciate just how much ammo is in the world

If you'd axe 9/10's of human population as you should assume in a postapocalyptic scenario whats in military depots would essentially never run out, not for the first generation anyway

In russia or Ukraine there are still unopened cold war stores where nuggets are lying by the hundreds of thousands all in cosmoline with an absolute metric fuckload of ammo around

>>34296070

SHOTGUN


SHOTGUN


SHOTGUN


SHOTGUN

>>34299034
Bernie isn't that antigun. I am worried that he may have sold his soul to the Dem party though

>>34298510
Bat poop and sulphur and charcoal.
The nitrates can also be obtained from fertiliser but that'd be just as rare as batpoop post apoc.

Bat poop is great but very fucking limited in quantity. You'll need a LOT and you'll be competing with the farmers desperate to replace their fertilisers. Peru and Chile built their fucking economies on mineable saltpeter deposits until interbellum German scientists (desperate to avoid the agriculturally and militarily crippling effects of a potential British blockade) came up with the Haber Process.
Charcoal is obtainable if you have the skill and time to cook it down. Takes AGES and needs constant monitoring but doable.
No idea where you'd get the sulphur from though. Today most of it is produced as a byproduct of the petro industry or the Frasch process ... neither of which are viable in a postapoc setting. IIRC there's still relatively accessible deposits in S America and Indonesia but I imagine most of the sources that could be reached with simple technology in the West have all been used up. Maybe you could round up some slaves and force them to go mining if you had any volcanoes nearby.
Fuck I'm shocked I still remember all this business from Year 12 chemistry. Haven't typed the words Haber or Frasch for half a decade now.

>>34299879
>>34299879
My chem teacher back in high school had us make it for our forensic science unit. Right from the basics.

>>34302165
>No idea where you'd get the sulphur from though.

If you're trying to make powder, you don't have to use sulphur. You can use sugar, and if that's not availible, dry out honey and use that instead.

It burns dirtier and at a different rate than sulphur based powder, but it's perfectly usable.


Also, about saltpeter: instead of guano, if you can get land to setup operations on, you can make it out of shit and piss if you have enough time on your hands.

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>>34302165
>Haber Process

You can join me in my fuck slave palace

>>34296070
>pipe
>ground up match heads
>two wires
>9v battery
>rocks and shrapnel

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>>34296070
These will be very common.

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>>34302165
Go in Alberta, near the Great Pyramids of Sulphur to get some...

>>34304354
Yea im just gunna trek my ass from rural ireland to fucking alberta.

>>34298449

Gotta get those MPGs.

>>34299008

1971. The fenders are from a 66 or 67 though as evidenced by lack of side marker lights.

>>34304354
why don't they sell the sulfur

>>34304585
It is a worthless byproduct. It cost more to send it overseas that a truckload is worth.

>>34303010
>usable
You'd get syrup if you leave it longer than a couple months, it take forever to fry after you corn it and it'll foul like mad, I've tried it and it's not great.

Leaving it out altogether works just fine if you tweak the recipie.

>>34298510
You can also leech it from the soil

>>34299701
fertilizer, battery acid and cotton make nitrocellulose it really is just kinda lying around

Has anyone tried making Armstrong mix instead of trying to get a hold of a bunch of matches?

I wish for /k/emistry threads on the subject of homemade smokeless powder.

Off the top of my head there is Ammonpluver which is Ammonium Nitrate + Charcoal. Technically semi-smokeless, and can only be used in laquered steel case as it actively rots brass. It allegedly behaves like IMR 3031. Mix 85% AM with 15% dead burnt Charcoal, load the cases with 25% IMR4895 over the primer and the other 75% with ammonpluver. If no booster charge paper, salt and rust mixed with the ammonpluver work as facilitating catalysts. Very corrosive, hose down the rifle action after shooting.

There is also the first generation nitropowders like the French Podeur B and Ballistite, but no idea on how to make those.

For primers, there is a guidebook floating around called "Homemade Primer Course Update" that explains various primer mixes.

>>34302197
That is not the informative post I was hoping for.

The hardest part is sourcing the chemicals on an industrial scale, thats not really a problem for a HS chem class.

>>34306077
This is better but eventually you're going to run out of batteries and scavengable acid etc. Where do you get enough for a proper industry?

>>34296070
How long after and how stable is the civilzations that form?

Mad Max is just a generation or two after the collapse so there are still old guns around and maybe rare old stock piles of ammo, but eventually new ammo needs to be made and repair replacement parts for ancient guns.

If old machine tools exist maybe simple things like Grease Guns, Stens, Webly Semi Auto pistol. Maybe handcrafted revolvers but that's for powerful city states, for most people it's going to be break top breach loading single or double rifles and shotguns.

a bit of off topic: is there still room for improvement in smokeless powder in terms of power/effectivness?

>>34296070
Lots of ar's from tactitards killing each other

>>34299034

Will he even be alive by 2020?

>>34300672
I am ok with this

>>34299034
Would not be worried about Bernie. They'll put up Hillary 2.0 and probably lose again because they can't seem to figure out nominating crazy extremists is a massive part of why Trump won in the first place.

Anyways, the most important bit was taken care of with Gorsuch and it's a pretty fair shot we'll also see a pro-2a replacement for Ginsburg at least. While she'd never resign with a Republican in office she's 84. She's got 4-8 years before she'd dare consider resigning and it's just a matter of whether or not the reaper beats the exit of the Trump admin and GOP majority in congress. The supreme court is where we really need pro-2a folks. With a pro-2a supreme court the bad guys can pass whatever they like only to see it smacked down repeatedly like the bullshit it is.

>>34296070

1, make black powder

2, make muzzle loaders

3, make percussion caps

4, make center-fire cartridges

5, make martini-henry style rifles, with bayonetts

6, get some scrap metal, and some guy who knows basic engeneering to make this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_17ij6cntgI


7, rule the wasteland like a lord/duke/baron, because victory favors those that can make more ammo

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>>34296070

my fucking dick you larping faggot.

>>34308535
If you are making nitre on an industrial scale you can make acid on an industrial scale there is a sequence of events for rebuilding and it almost always starts at the argiculture level, the first thing that will get started up again are the fertilizer factories and once those get feedstock the ball will roll towards full smokeless.

People who act like they can simply piss on some straw and magically get black powder or they'll have the time or resources.

>>34296070
Mosin

>>34311912
Its easy to distribute production for black powder. Whether thats getting individuals to do it individually or collecting from them and then refining centrally. Agriculture, humans and livestock will still exist so those sources will as well.

People keep saying that smokeless is just as easy or easier but every time I've asked them to explain they handwave it rather than actually telling me how it'd work. The French and Swiss methods aren't ideal ways to produce powder, but at least I know they work and it'd be easy enough to implement even at basic technology levels.