I HATE DI

The AR is the best design right now.

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>>34294481
>I hate DI
>Why doesn't everyone hate what I hate.

>Come on now

>>34294530
Which is why so many other guns use its exact system.

>>34294481
>I don't actually know anything about guns, but feel the need to assert my superiority by quoting something I read somewhere

The Post

>>34295012
8yr army infantry vet here, I hate AR's, I had to spend too much time cleaning my gun. My fucking CO would always yell at us to always clean our weapons when they were already clean but there was always some sort of carbon buildup somewhere in the gun.

>>34294621
Why reinvent the wheel when the AR15 basically does everything perfect?

Why do you think it's so popular?

>>34294481
Got an Adams Arms upper today.
NEVER GOING BACK TO DI.

>>34295128
>8yr army infantry vet here
Means jack shit, famalam.

>I had to spend too much time cleaning my gun. My fucking CO would always yell at us to always clean our weapons when they were already clean but there was always some sort of carbon buildup somewhere in the gun.
So you're mad that your CO was busting your balls in usual military fashion?
You know the rifle doesn't need even close to the amount of cleaning that they demand, right? That goes for basically every infantry weapon ever fielded, they do this to fuck with you.

>>34295262
Piston AR's are popular.

>>34295262
I was being ironic. Most guns I can think of are piston driven.

>>34295342
Not even close to as popular.

ITT: plebs who don't know that carbon is a lubricant

>>34295364
please be joking

>>34295128
You were in for 8 years and still couldn't figure out how to clean a fucking weapon?

The Obama army, ladies and gentlemen.

>>34294481
>reliablilty
DI is not less reliable
>clean
Clean your gun every once in a while, it makes no difference.
>no melting gas tubes
You very sincerely have to TRY to do this

And here's why DI is best:
It is inherently more accurate. No stock semi-auto ever made anywhere is as accurate as half the ARs in your local gunstore.

>>34295364
Except this isn't some 80,000 psi application. Also, residual gun powder has other contaminants.

>>34294481
can't use binary triggers with piston guns though

>>34294481
>I hate direct impingement.
So don't use direct impingement weapons

>Why can't people just all agree that piston is the best system for multiple reasons
Why isn't Hillary 50 points ahead?

>>34295278

Why?

I actually only own piston guns, (I haven't built an AR yet, want to throw stupid money at it when the time comes) but they were made that way. Why bother with a piston upper? AR owners seriously have a mental disease, where perfection is not good enough, where every imagined increase in performance must be chased into dead ends. Reading this kind of post just makes me think of some kind of junky.

You just got this upper today. You haven't even really used it, if you've even installed it and taken it to the range at all. And yet you say you're never going back, as if you already have seen some massive change. Nothing has changed except some undeserved self validation.

What do you hope to achieve by adding a piston? Assuming it is made with quality parts, I tell you, the AR is already reliable. The AR is supreme in accuracy. What do you hope to achieve by changing the AR into something else, and why do you pretend you have already gained something?

I don't even know why this bothers me so much, but it does.

>>34294481
Well, you are in luck, the bolt carrier in an AR-15 is the piston!

>>34295278
.50 cents has been deposited into your account.

>>34295508
>ar cucks really believe this

>>34295128
Why was you CO busting you and not your SNCO or SL?

>>34295278
I have an AA piston upper. It is nice not having a bunch of carbon being shit into magazines and the trigger group. Things stay much cleaner.

>>34295507
Honestly I don't see the problem with swapping out parts on an AR, as long as it makes sense.

MagPul furniture feels MUCH better in my hands than A2 furniture so that's worthwhile for me. Many like using an optic so they do, and it works for them.
The A1 is very underrated though.

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>>34295828
Yes, the BCG basically acts like a piston upon itself.

>>34295985
>I've never actually owned an AR: The Post

Gass doesn't get anywhere besides the bolt in DI, you fucking retard, which it's designed to do.

>>34294530
Ar is fuck8ng shit

>>34296108
The only thing I dislike about ARs is no folding stock option.

if it's got a piston, it's not an AR. more moving parts, more chance of failure. a competent armorer can service every part of a milspec AR in the field. not so with a piston rifle.

>>34296150
Pdw stock is just as effective

>>34294481
Reliable? No mechanical design is 100% foolproof. Stuff breaks.

Clean? ARs can run very dirty if lubricated properly. Too many people just douse the entire BCG in oil, when all it needs is some on the gas rings of the bolt.

Never heard of a melting gas tube, but I guess it could happen.

Stupid ass gas keys? As opposed to a shit rivet job on an AK? Plastic trunions that melt and can't hold the barrel straight?

>>34295342
Where? Outside of the HK 416 and POF offerings, who else makes an off the shelf piston AR? Thats actually good?

>>34295278
Is it any good? I'm considering doing a .300 pistol with hopes to suppress and SBR when I move out of state.

>>34295508
>>34295828
>>34296086
What does a piston do, mechanically speaking? What does the BCG do?

>>34294481
Enjoy proprietary systems from companies that may not exist to provide service or replacement parts a few years from now. Also, DI will always have an accuracy advantage.

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>>34296337
>Also, DI will always have an accuracy advantage.
How exactly is this more accurate? Compared to bolt action sure but between piston and DI is there a practical difference?

>>34295128
Thank you for your srrvice

Is it possible to match an AR's recoil in a design without DI?

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>>34296395
The action on the AR15 is 100% in line with the bore, gas is taken into the bolt-carrier, the bolt rotates and unlocks, goes backwards, then takes the bolt-carrier with it (after venting the gas out the ejection port).

At this entire process, the bolt and bolt carrier moves in a perfectly straight line, hitting the buffer, they are the only parts that is moving as the gun fires.

On a short-stroke piston AR, you have the weight of the piston above the bore, shifting back and forth, and this does affect inherent accuracy, and to an extent, felt recoil, which itself affects accuracy.
It's a small difference, but it's absolutely there.

You can still have pretty good accuracy with a short-stroke piston gun, particularly the common AR18 design, or the short-stroke versions of the AR15, as the radial locking lugs Eugene Stoner became known for (taught to him by Melvin Johnson), gives you a very secure and consistently repeatable lockup, and the rifles in question are easy to give a free-floating barrel, itself a very good thing to have for precision.

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>>34296592
by using 5.45

>>34296721
There are 5.45x39mm AR15s.

I have no idea how they perform, but I picture them feeling like a .22LR if you were to fit it for an AK74 brake.

>>34296648
What happens is the piston-style gas system whips the barrel down. Direct impingement transfers those forces to the receiver where they do nothing.

>>34296648
Couldn't the piston problem be solved by attaching the piston farther towards the rear of the bolt and making the piston itself shorter?

>>34296099

>I've never shot an AR more than 3 mags the post.

That shit can get a little dirty or a lotta dirty. Nothing to stop it but it still gets dirty

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https://pastebin.com/ADLNhG9Z

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>>34296819

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>>34296825

>>34296648
I'm more accurate with an ak 47 than a top of the line ar15.

>>34294481
short stroke has yet to fix the problems with bolt tilt

>>34295128
Shouldve used fedex- i mean- shouldve gotten an ak

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>>34295507
Two sentences, TWO SENTENCES. That's all it took to send your $3000 gucci rifle, unicorn blood lube using ass into damage control. If you were so confident of your weapon, you would just disregard what I typed. BUT NO, you wrote a literal PASTA to express the butthurt all DI fags have. Two of worlds premiere infantry forces, SOCOM and the USMC have adopted piston systems, and the Army had TWO tests that their precious M4 got so BTFO they CANCELED them.

I can FEEL the asshurt from my screen and this is only DAY ONE, I'm going to enjoy /arg/'s agony when the HK416 gets adopted.

>>34294481
Muhreen grunt (also engineer in real life) this thread is shot/cleaned DI vs disassembled/looked at schematics of DI. Basically everyone is wrong

>>34295457 I'll admit that fresh carbon will lube a gun, but eventually you need to clean it out, and I'd prefer to clean a pushrod

>>34296255 I've cleaned enough DI guns in my life. I put an ungodly amount of rounds through the M27 IAR and then got switched back to the M4; I now own a Sig 516 and a POF P308, I will never buy a DI gun. If you're worried about parts compatibility in the apocalypse you can always snag a DI gun before the retarded round count it takes to break the op rod.

Tl;dr Don't buy a gun that shits on all the moving parts; but you're all biased already, so buy what you like

>>34296108
>H&K416
>Sig 516
>L129A1

ARetards in full damage control!!!
lmao at you dumb fanboy zombies defending your shitty 1950's rifle!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>34297590
Right about short stroke pushrod, but "premier." All us 03s are retarded, you need proof? I know that the M27 is absolutely fucking amazing...but I still miss the M249 SAW

>>34297638 Says the guy with the 4+ MOA Tavor X95 and the KelTec KSG

Eh, direct impingement is alright. I like pistons better, but whatever. Direct impingement never did anything to hurt me. My grandad has an old-school A1 build that's lots of fun.

It's okay.

>>34297730

>>Says the guy with the 4+ MOA Tavor X95 and the KelTec KSG

>assblasted ARetard thinks everyone who doesn't like the AR owns one of the few rifles that are even worse because his small autistic brain can't understand the concept that his rifle isn't da besstest riful evar

>>34297608
fellow Infantrybro, help me out here: why does it honestly matter that the AR blasts the byproducts of firing a round all over the insides of the upper receiver? like, I've seen them get fucking disgusting and keep running 100%

as a practical matter, piston just makes the rifles easier to clean, and if that blows your hair back, then great, but I've never had stoppages on:

>20 inch rifle gas
or
>14.5 carbine gas

I'm not even super pro AR, but this debate confounds me every time I see it

>>34297767
Yes, I am quite assblasted. I would love to hear what better rifle you own than the shitty 1950s rifle. I love the 1950s M14 and 1970s AUG; and will admit that the SCAR is slightly better in every way than all the other options, but my trigger time on AR/M16 platform rifles outweighs all of that for me personally...but please, tell me what this incredibly better rifle is

>>34295864
I was about to ask the same thing, this guy's NCOs must have either been shit OR he was such a shitty soldier that the CO had him on speed dial.

>>34295278
>Just got it today, so no range time yet or any time spent with it, literally still only know what the ads told you
>"NEVAR GOIN BACK!!"

>>34297886

>durr muh trigger time on dug AR!
You literally don't even have a defense of your dogshit rifle.
It's come in last place in like every army reliability test, and you retards still claim its reliable.
Meanwhile I try to contain my laughter as I watch you faggots jamming twice per mag at the range,
and then I go home, watch a video of a fire fight in Iraq, and have a drink every time I see a soldier's dogshit AR jam.
I'm usually passed out before the video ends lmao
Can't wait to see your assdevistation when they finally replace that piece of crap.

>>34295278

When Fleet Farm dumped them every thing from Adam's was 50% off, I got two of their uppers for $400 a piece, I'm very happy about my good fortune being a poor fag I can't afford nice things, my previous ARs being from Century, Delton and Plum Crazy

>>34295440
>And here's why DI is best:
>It is inherently more accurate. No stock semi-auto ever made anywhere is as accurate as half the ARs in your local gunstore.
SG550, Rk62, Rk95. L85A2 according to some reports, can't confirm personally.

>>34297957
I think you're missing the point. I'm all for innovation and replacing the M16/M4. I think the 416 is a good step away from the DI platform. When the M41 Pulse Rifle gets adopted my moto boner will be unstoppable, I liked the idea of the XM8 and think the SCAR was a better rifle than current issue but only marginally. You never answered my question, I am totally open to a better rifle than the shitty 1950s one, just tell me what it is

>>34298060

Any modern piston rifle.
Even a piston AR style rifle.

>but muh DI rifle is more accurate!
Even if a milspec DI AR was more accurate (it's not) milspec ammo isn't accurate enough for that to matter anyway.

>>34297957
>I watch you faggots jamming twice per mag at the range
only personally owned weapon I've ever had stop on me was an SKS
>a soldier's dogshit AR jam
only issue weapon that caused me problem was both M249s I was issued

damn homie, you having a bad day?

>>34298092
>milspec DI AR
>milspec ammo
ever fired an M4 wearing RIS II? ... I'd really be cheating if I threw 262 in the mix, not to mention ACOG

>>34298117

Fired an M4 MWS.
What's that got to do with shit?

>>34298132
then you know how straight GI AR can shoot

>>34298141

Yeah, 3-5 MOA.
So what?
I have a VEPR that does 2 MOA with surplus ammo from the 70's

>>34298149
lolno holy fucking shit, you have never touched a rifle in your life

>>34296648
Thanks for the .gif. I always love little infographics like this. Gets my dick rock hard.

>>34297877
I'll agree that between the M16 and M4 I've never really had any issues either; and I'll give you the fact that most people who ive seen have issues are the retards that don't lube or don't clean their weapons. That being said, the M27 takes way less effort before and after use to keep it to the same level of cleanliness. More than just day to day use, I put thousands of rounds through the M27 on full auto at one range at 29 Palms in a very short period of time and it ran like a dream. Maybe a full auto DI gun could have done the same, but simply wiping down the bolt/BCG and piston after to get it back to 100% was revolutionary to me

>>34296859
That's not possible. An AR is more precise than any AK for numinous reasons.

1. AR has better sights
2. AR has higher quality barrel
3. AK barrel moves around with each shot
4. AR has tighter construction

>>34298161

Go look up the requirements for milspec ammo yourself then.

>>34298171
That's fair. I was always using single shots, no matter how quickly I was taking those shots. I was _almost_ always using an M16, and the M27 isn't Saint Eugene's 20 inch rifle gas system.

>>34296804
>>34295985
Carbon fouling on the lower internals comes from gases still in the barrel/chamber during extraction. The same gases that would still be in the barrel/chamber of a piston rifle. Reducing that fouling is a function of properly timing the extraction for the specific ammunition you use.

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>>34297981
Wut.

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>>34294481

You just need to do the right thing.

>>34298161
m4s don't need to be better than 3 moa

>>34294481

Cool, and I prefer DI over piston.

>>34295128
10 year infantry vet, shut your mouth you pog fuck. Let's give Joe something requiring regular 20 or 30 level maintenance with small parts that if not installed correctly will result in a bent rod and useless weapon. Smart. DI was designed to compensate for the gas/temperature. perfect, no, worth replacing not yet. And bitching about cleaning your rifle...pog. 4 deployments, hundreds of rounds, zero failures. Quit being a dirt bag.

>>34298266

lmao this isnt an rp board kiddo

>>34298266
>hundreds of rounds

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>>34298266
>4 deployments
>hundreds of rounds
>zero failures
I have a guess why there were zero failures.

>>34296739
Someone wrote about a conversion kit for it: http://www.alloutdoor.com/2014/05/28/building-cheap-to-shoot-5-45x39-ar-15/
Only problem si that his first build had the ammo literally tumbling through the air, so I'm not too confident in the accuracy.

>>34297957
>You literally don't even have a defense of your dogshit rifle
Yeah, and it sounds like you don't have a rifle at all, or you would have told us what superior piece of technology you own that's so much better than the AR-15

>>34298092
I think you're very confused because I was the one arguing that short stroke pushrod AR is better than DI. I'm still waiting on either a civilian available rifle or military issue rifle that is better than the 'shitty 1950s M16/M4" or my preferred HK416

>>34298149 Dear god, have I been arguing with an AKfag this entire time

>>34298218 I know the carbon from the chamber you're talking about, and maybe the difference is the decreased internal temperature in piston vs DI; but I'm saying that in my personal experience the M27 runs significantly cleaner than M4/M16 rifles, even with drastically higher round counts

>>34298376 I even conceded to that guy that the SCAR is better, just not by very much

>>34298405
Yeah, it just seemed like that guy was a noguns, the way he talked about his superior rifle that he never named.

>>34295390
He isn't. Some dry lubricant powders are basically ground up graphite.

What do you guys think about putting DI in a AR-18?

>>34298218
>>34298218
That's interesting, because I have a DI AR too, and have shot the same ammunition in it, and find the lower and magazines have much more carbon deposited in the DI rifle (20", rifle length gas tube).

>>34294481
just clean your guns, you lazy burger stuffing morons. di is best system.

>>34296832
People seem to forget that DI puts forward pressure on the bolt and reduces lug wear.
The M27s have been shearing off bolt lugs with average round counts a few thousand below when the M4 does.

>>34297877
Yeah, I don't think it's a big deal if internals get some filth on them as long as no corrosive ammo is being used.
For that matter, does modern production corrosive 5.56 even exist?

>>34294481
Go take five thousand decent rounds to the range and fire your DI gun without cleaning and count how many rounds till failure.

Not take tan thousand rounds and some CLP, spray some CLP in the action ever couple thousand rounds or so.

>>34294481

OH FUCK

We better let all the world's militaries know the M16 operating system sucks, and they haven't been woring for 50+ years.

>>34295128
>My fucking CO
Why are you such a shitbag that even your CO even knows who the fuck you are? The two highest ranking people in your unit who should even remotely know who you are are your Platoon SGT and Company Gunny, and only if you're on their good side.

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>>34296832
>>34296825
>>34296819
>someone wasted their time making this

>>34299206
The way the m27 is used might have something to do with it. The weegie 416s will shoot over 10k on one bolt. Mtbf is like 8-10k iirc while the m4 is around 5-8k

>>34295128
>not getting your shit bone-dry so no carbon comes off it when CO tries to finger it, then re-lubing it for proper function

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>>34294481
If you're sustaining fire long enough that your gas tube is melting, your squad mates are already dead or you're doing ALL their work AND all the machinegunner's work. The gas tubes only melt on AR-15's in two sets of conditions, number one is that you're sustaining fire for hundreds of rounds in full auto (not likely to happen in any practical situation) and number two is that you're still firing mag after mag in full auto, and your barrel collar isn't properly alligned, an issue that will play out no better for pistons, and will have effect significantly faster. In any case, when you DO have a problem with the gas tube, it's a cheap and minor repair to perform requiring the punching in and out of ONE pin and the replacement of a small tube that costs almost nothing next to the three hundred dollar piston, not to mention that ANY gas tube will do, whereas all piston systems on AR-15s are proprietary and will require machine work to adapt if at all possible, to say nothing of the unit cost per piston or bolt assembly itself.

>>34298331
>http://www.alloutdoor.com/2014/05/28/building-cheap-to-shoot-5-45x39-ar-15/
As for the second build, ballistic advantage doesn't even make 5.45 barrels anymore and has no plans on reintroducing them - I emailed them personally to ask

>>34299479
The M27 and the 416 both use steel that is better than C158 don't they?
It seems odd that the m4 hasn't gotten any material upgrades since it was adopted. I wonder how an M4 made out of better stuff would stack up against the HK rifles.

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>>34294481
The MPT 76 is based on the AR platform and uses a short stroke piston. It's also chambered in the 7.62 NATO.

>>34296648
Putting a piston on an AR-15 misaligns the forces and causes carrier tilt without a drastic redesign of the receiver.

It also causes the bolt lugs to be yanked back against the chamber lugs instead of being pressed forward while unlocking, increasing chance of shearing.

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>>34295420
kill yourself as soon as possible

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>>34296395
>compared to bolt actions, sure

What do you mean by this

ageru

don't let this 'tism die

>>34294481
>Why can't people just all agree that piston is the best system for multiple reasons

Because it's not. If you want a "piston AR", buy an AR-18.

>>34296150
law tactical folding stock mod

>>34307028
Yeah, try shooting with that folded.

>>34307686
Don't know if its the one hes' talking about but the one I've seen you can soot with the stock folded you just cant shoot twice.

>how to make an AR heavier, more complicated, and less accurate

>>34294530
eugene pls.

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>>34294481
>short stroke
>anything but garbage

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>>34294481
Because the AR platform was designed to have the bolt pushed back from the center of the bolt carrier, not the top. If you want a piston gun, buy one that was designed to use it.