can a attack helicopter take down a jet fighter?

With the right weaponry, of course, there are AI systems that could probably change function depending on the scenario.

t. machine learning student

Theoretically possible and in simulations a few years back they got a ridiculous success rate for A2A kills, but in all practical terms no.

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>>34289907
Apaches & vipers can carry stingers & aim 9s.

I think its more of a defense against other helicopters though,

So possible.

>>34289911

it might essentially turn into a battle of AIs as the missle AI tries to outsmart the jet's AI

A Hind-D?

LIQUID!!!

>>34289911

Neural net dev guys are the only compsci people I get along with because I think it takes a semblance of social skills due to the nuance of what you're working with (from my understanding)

you guys are cool keep up with that machine learning nonsense because it seems to pool interesting human beings in one place-- even though I'm a huge fucking luddite.

>>34289907
It's POSSIBLE, but unlikely.
More POSSIBLE than a tank shooting a jet out of the sky.

Possible is too big of lee way for questions like these imo.

>>34289911

>there are AI systems that could probably change function depending on the scenario.
>machine learning

You know how I know you're not a machine learning student?

I had it happen in a video game

>Battlefield 2 Project Reality
>messing around in a co op server
>sitting in apache waiting for other squad mate
>spinning in circles on the helipad bored waiting
>fire off an air to air missile because why the fuck not
>missile collides with an F16 that just happened to be landing on the runway next to me

>>34289907
as long as pilot of a jet fighter isn't retarded or drunk, probably no

but in theory, for example Apache can detect fighters by long bow radar and fire Stinger.

>>34289907
Rather than going nahhhhh is anyone actually going to look at the issue?
If not I guess I'll be the 1st.

If the plane in question is a fighter, operating at altitude, not a chance.

On the otherhand a low level strike aircraft on an attack run is in real terms on a fixed course within a few points. A pop up helo would be able to get a short range AAM off, which would either be a kill or drive the pilot of the deck to evade, opening him up to other systems.

Would it be a kill? maybe
Would it fuck the mission it was on? Likely
Is it worth it? I was under the impression the Textron Skorpion, advertising it as a helicopter interceptor ,was approaching the USAF hoping the answer was yes

>>34290467
BRRROTHER

>>34289907
With enough modifications you could mount a large surface to air missile on the helicopter.

You can mount a sidewinder on an apache, only issue would be lock. hell if the pilot hits a hydra on a fighter it'd do something.

Fuck, you could duct tape a stinger launcher to a Cessna's wing and with a bit of luck and positioning it could take out a jet fighter. As in, if the fighter is dumb enough to fly within stinger range of the cessna and not be like lololol mach 2 at 50k ft, what you gon do about it?

Tests were done in I think the late 70s. Attack helicopters did very well against fighters in mock combat. Fighters would get over confident and engage them in a turning fight instead of using their altitude advantage to swoop down on them. With a change in tactics, fighters dominated the helicopters.

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>>34289907
>>34289911
imagine this senario

>a covert us heli comes down to provide air cover
>Mr terry wist get there ass handed to them
>suddenly syrian airforce comes in us heli guy starts to hover in place to get a lock on in the jet
>Mr Terry takes out his trusty stinger missle provided by usa/usa tax payers and shoots the covert US heli down
>suddenly a dead american pilot is dragged down the streets of some bum fuck random middle east country CNN and the jew media have a field day
>and you end up in middle east again shooting Mr Terry and his family

>>34289907

inb4 jcatch

>>34291332
Ah, the circle of life. Isn't it beautiful?

>>34291332
Why does he have to hover in place? An apache is operated by 2 people. I'm sure they are not going to ignore the ground threats and just hover in place.

Apparently it has happened. Don't know the validity of this but this article says a iraqi hind used an unguided missile S-5 against an iranian f-4 and got a hit. Russians and Iraqi could just be spewing lies because it's a cool story though. You be the judge.
http://csef.ru/en/oborona-i-bezopasnost/423/kak-mi-24v-unichtozhil-izrailskij-istrebitel-unikalnye-rekordy-rossijskih-vertoletov-7384

A longbow apache vs an early MiG-21 with no look down radar might be an interesting thing to see

If the fixed wing aircraft doesn't have BVR missiles then the helicopter is actually more likely to win in a fight between the two. USAF did a study some time ago and basically told fighters to not get into turn fights with helicopters because they'll get an SRAAM up their ass.

>>34289907

I am aware of an exercise in Hungry where a Hind was able to "shoot down" two F-15 fighter jets in a simulated engagement. The Hind pilot used terrain to hide from the F-15's whenever they tried to lock onto the helicopter. Eventually, the two F-15's decided that enough was enough and swooped in for a gun-kill, at which point the Hind shot both of them with its own gun. Of course, it was only a simulation and the entire thing relied on the jet pilots getting impatient, making a dumb mistake.

>>34291780
>Hungry

>>34289919
Yes, the problem is that the helicopters' speed will limit the range of the a2a missile in question. But yes, theoretically possible. But the helicopter would most likely be shafted first.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-CATCH

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>>34289907
If its not a pitched battle
>Use terrain for cover
>Shoot a sidewinder into their tailpipe.

Supposedly an Iraqi Mi-24 shot down an Iranian F-14 in June 8th 1982 over the Bekka Valley. The Mi-24 fired two R-60s at the distance of 8 km

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>>34291757
>This

OP never stated it had to be a 5th generation fighter.

You now realize jets can be, and have been, shot down by infantry.
>inb4 rotor = radar guided missile magnet

>>34292997
>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-shot-you!. "What-how?-That's-physically-impossible".Fuck-you-I-shot-you-because-I-say-I-did!

>my friend's dad was an A-10 pilot and was on a sortie where they hit an iraqi helicopter in the air with a guided bomb
IDK if he was full of shit, but there were some other cool stories like finding lines of tanks just lined up ready for a strafing.

>>34290583
That's because jets are capped to like 200 knots in these games

>>34293717
I've read an article about that story, went something like this
>strike eagle looking for targets of opportunity
>see a helicopter on land with infantry dismounting
>decide to drop and LGB on it
>helicopter takes off and gains some altitude after the bomb is released, WSO keeps tracking it
>bomb hits airborne helicopter, helicopter vaporises

>>34289907
The jet pilot would have to put himself in a shitty low energy position to be in a place where he couldn't out manouver and outpace a missile from a helicopter

yes if it hits it like a beyblade

>>34289907
Absolutely, AIM-9s absolutely destroy fighters. If the helo can get a lock, especially if the jet only has radar missiles, it can knock the jet right out of the sky.

>>34289919

That's one of the Apace prototypes or FSD that were showed around the world during the 80s,you can recognize them by the earlier and shorter pylons,lack of collar/fairing around main rotor mast,I think it also had a different and very visible switch/fuse console on left side and also had two fairing beneath the fuselage instead of a single one.

For what I know they tested and dumped the Sidewinder due missile exhaust giving away Apache's position and also because it was not so cleared to carry them on wing tips.AH-1 variants since the J were cleared to carry and use them,so if anything Apaches are just cleared to use Stinger missiles if and if their pylons are still wired for them

>>34294097
>only if the jet is flying low enough
>only if the jet is flying straight towards the chopper
>only if the jet is flying slow enough
>only under these circumstances

In other, real world news, far more helicopters have been downed by fighters than vice versa, to the point where statistically helos are almost always likely to be killed, rather than be the killer

>>34291551

Yeah check this op

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-CATCH

>>34289907
Already happened.
Iranian AH-1Js have 3 confirmed MiG-21s, 1 probable Su-17 and 1 shared Mig-23.
All with the gun.

>>34289907
everyone ITT, especially with the AI stuff is a retard. the military did this before in an exercise (can't remember the name) but the helos almost always BTFO the fighter jets as long as they used their maneuverability to their advantage.

Yes, I do it in Battlefield 3 all the time.

>>34289907
>a heli armed with AA missiles us hiding in terrain
>low flying jet flies by
>heli shoots it down
Like the ArmA 2 EW mission

I remember getting shot down by enemy Apaches in Ace Combat 0 a couple times. Was wondering what the fuck hit me

>>34293788

Tim Bennett and Dan Bakke.

it was pretty asshole-puckering because they thought after impact that it was blue-on-blue.

http://www.f-15e.info/joomla/stories/182-tim-bennetts-war

>>34289907
A HIND

D
D
D
D

>>34291780

A Strike Eagle killed an actual helicopter with a laser guided bomb. This was not a simulation.

yes, the US mil had an exercise between army attack helicopters and AF jets. the helicopters smoked them using the terrain to hide until they would pop up and attack with A2A missiles. the air force complained that the army had to inform them when they were attacking the jets because it was "unfair".

If I remember correctly the only air to air kill accomplished by a helicopter was during the Iran Iraq war, and it was actually done by a TV guided missile.

But yes, attack helicopters are perfectly capible of shooting down low and slow jets with mounted MANPADS and even actual AA missiles, and it has been demonstrated in live fire exercises I just don't think it's ever been done in real combat.

>>34289907
Yes, if fighters attempt to dogfight them over land, the helicopters will absolutely shit on them.

J-catch made this fairly clear.

If the fighters aren't retarded, or engage the helicopters over water, the helicopters have no chance of survival.

>>34289907
>>34293717
"During the two-week exercise, the helicopters proved devastating to the fixed-wing aircraft. In most cases the fighter pilots had no idea they were being "attacked" until they returned to base for debriefing. This led to a series of claims and counter-claims, so for the second week the helicopter pilots were instructed to follow Air Force procedure and call out "guns-guns-guns" when "firing". The kill ratio in favour of the helicopters climbed even higher during this period. Over the entire two-week period, the outcome was a 5-to-1 ratio in favour of the helicopters."

Air force got butthurt and claimed it didn't count because the army wasn't telling them AT THE TIME, so the army played by their rules and still wrecked them.

Helicopters can and will hide behind terrain and pop up to attack, which is totally outside the purview of fixed wing pilots. Add in turret guns and vastly superior maneuverability, and they're going to be exceedingly dangerous to anything that gets into gun range.

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>>34295754
Excuse me?

>>34289907
Didn't Hind do this once?

>>34296251
Amy/Air force testing of helicopters vs fighters found that fighters do poorly against helicopters unless they engage from beyond visual range.

>>34296251
a helicopter with AA missiles is basically an ultra-threatening SAM site that moves around and can hide behind stuff

except instead of SAMs its AAMs

would you put your fighters anywhere near SAMs?

>>34295374
>A Strike Eagle killed an actual helicopter with a laser guided bomb.
That took guys on the ground lasing the helicopter, though, and the helicopter was in the middle of taking off, it wasnt actively doing anything and was largely stationary

>>34294063
underrated post

>>34290583
>>34293723
i once had it happen in the DCS game that has more than just A-10s

it was deeply embarrassing

>>34289911
>machine learning
>le perfect AI outmaneuver mans may may

honestly it would be better solved by radar software that just has a prerecorded voice line going "HEY FUCKASS THERE'S A PLANE-LOOKIN THING BEHIND YOU, HEADS UP FAGGOT" whenever it detects anything that is seemingly the same one fast moving object (which is a nontrivial challenge but is not one of AI at all and is just normal analysis)

>>34295754
>if fighters attempt to dogfight them over land, the helicopters will absolutely shit on them.
>J-catch made this fairly clear.
>>34296438
>Amy/Air force testing[read: J-CATCH] of helicopters vs fighters found that fighters do poorly against helicopters unless they engage from beyond visual range.
That's not what J-CATCH actually said though. Range and altitude are needed, but not BV range. BVR is fine, but a short-rang AAM is fine too. The best summation of the study was that fighters need to retain their natural advantages, and refrain from close combat, and especially to refrain from getting below the rotor disc.

>>34291743
both sides were incompetent enough that this sort of thing seems possible.