Why did M16s only have 20 rounds?

>>34252017
Bill Ruger wrote them a letter.

It was 18 rounds. They did it because it facilitated easier prone shooting.

>>34252017
The better question is why did Stoner design it with a straight magwell?

>>34252029
Straight wells for straight men

>>34252023
It was 20 rounds.

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>>34252017
M14 only had 20. Same with G3 and FAL.
At the time, they probably just didn't think to put 30 in, as 20 was the standard for NATO weapons. Why don't 5.45x39 mags hold 45 by default?

>>34252037
That's just the Mandela effect. It was 18 or possible 16 rounds, I think.

>>34252054
Holds 20 but you really only wanted to put 20 in it for reliability.

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>>34252054

>>34252067
Hes not in the jungles of vietnam. 20 round mags work fine with 20 rounds.

>>34252054
It was 20, however most GI in nam only loaded 18 because loading the magazine fully could cause failures to feed.

t. asked my dad he was in nam.

>>34252070
>>34252023
USGI mags had shit springs and followers, loading to the max was problematic.
They were designed for 20 rounds, then later the 30 we see standard now.

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>>34252054
There were 20 and 25 round straight body mags.

>>34252023
Mags were aluminum made and considered by US army as disposable goods.
The rule was,you factory load mag once,use it and throw it way.
Of course that was not the situation on the field.
People were reloading mags and got problems.
Those mags were not meant to be reloaded.

>>34252107
>The rule was,you factory load mag once,use it and throw it away
That sounds like grade A fucking bullshit to me that makes no tactical or logistical sense at all

You got a source for that or are we supposed to take that on faith

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>>34252017
It was determined that that was the most AESTHETIC

>>34252116
this is general knowledge about early USGI mags

>>34252116
I recommend you read Black Rifle I and Black Rifle II before you post bs next time.

>>34252123
So you don't have a source after all, alright guess you just proved my point

>>34252116
>WWII
>Korea
>Mags and clips were tossed aside

Why wouldn't Stoner think the same at the time?

>>34252017
because they are one use

>>34252127
do you want a source for human brains needing oxygen also professor?

https://books.google.com/books?id=34KpCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA88&lpg=PA88&dq=vietnam+20+round+magazine+disposable&source=bl&ots=7HwQgh90xr&sig=R2kfoPIH0OjVCVNZv9QSiLnI0Cc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiG2efV-rzUAhVeVWMKHcpgDnY4ChDoAQgwMAI#v=onepage&q=vietnam%2020%20round%20magazine%20disposable&f=false

>>34252053
Because 5.45 still has a fat case, idiot.

>MP40 magazines held 32
>only loaded to 30 to avoid jams

Why didn't magazine tech improve in 20+ years
Why did it take so long to get away from STANAGs

>>34252122
came here to post this

>>34252107
People were also told that the M16 was space age tech and didn't need to be cleaned at all.

>>34252023
I'd say that atleast on level ground shooting with a 30 rounder while prone is a lot easier, you can use the magazine as a monopod and get a really stable gun.

>>34252037
I think he's talking about people only loading 18 rounds so that seating the mag is easier.

>>34252017
because haveing 20 rounds in a semi auto rifle is totally fine

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>>34252097
This. Early and experimental models used the straight-body 25-round magazine and they quickly transitioned to 20's for a short time. They began experimenting with semi-curved 30's at the same time and by 1968 with the adoption of the M16A1 standard curved 30-rounders were standard issue.

There was less than 5 years that 20-round magazines were standard in the US.

>>34252116
https://youtu.be/138Of8ucaMY?t=566

the same reason why the M16 is burst fire
so that soldiers don't easily magdump on every noise

>>34252017
The M14 had 20rd mags and it was thought of as pretty plentiful for an infantry rifle at the time. Consider that the M1 before it only had an 8rd fixed mag.
Also the M16 is a very light rifle for it's time (also by today's standards, actually), it'll be even lighter still with a little 20rd mag.

The 30rd magazines were a later development, partially for the early A1 styles of carbines (where automatic fire was of more importance, and they were deployed as you would a subgun), but it was found that they simply had a better feed geometry than the 20rd ones, so that's a big reason they became standard.
Also I think everyone pretty much deduced that 30rd mags is the typical happy medium for intermediate caliber rifles in general.

>>34252023
Not by design.

>>34252054
No, they were designed as disposable and loaded with 20rds from the factory, logistical and economical shortcomings soon showed that you couldn't have disposable magazines so GIs had to reuse them or have no magazines at all to use.

The only way to keep using these mags were to progressively load them with fewer rounds each time you filled them, because they were built to only really handle 20rds ever and would wear out fast.
This idea was thankfully phased out and they went with reloadable magazines, then the previously mentioned 30rd magazines came about, which were better still.

>>34252070
Yeah, modern 20rd mags have no issues, but original issue mags were only meant to feed 20rds ever and were calculated to the nth degree to be as cheap as possible.

>>34252116
It's 100% true my nigga, someone thought magazines being really light and disposable like clips would be a cool idea.
You would see the same thing with the FAMAS.

Moreover, the lord of Autism, MacNamara, didn't help, I don't think anyone could count beans like him and his croneys, and that shit is not good for logistics.

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Because larger/longer mags were difficult to fire from the prone position without balancing the rifle on the magazine.

>>34252199
STANAG is still common, we've just made them work.

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They Navy SEALS had 50 round mags.

>>34252347
That was *a* issue, but the fact that the ammo was way over pressure was a much bigger one, by far, the way too high pressure making the gun cycle too fast caused most failures, timing issues and faster wear is bad news.

>>34252582
No, that's another thing.

>>34252963
No.

Burst fire wasn't added until the A2, which was after Vietnam and after 20rd magazines stopped being standard.

>>34252558
That will lead to ftf

>>34252054
retard

>>34253756
What do you mean? How come? I've never had any problems.

>>34253901
It's a possibility, but I don't think it'll be a guarantee.

>>34253901
Pressure on an aluminum magazine. It's possible, especially when the mags were meant to be disposable so they weren't exactly manufactured with the highest specifications.

Modern productions would surely be fine.

>>34252017

Maximum a e s t h e t I c

Also the ammunition came in packs in units of 20 so a 20 rounder makes sense

I love the 20 round magazine though

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>>34252122
>>34254032


Damn right

>>34252054
I always thought it was 21 but I probably was thinking of that one meme

>>34254061
epin maymay XD

The M14 had 20, As did the FAL and G3, Plus the Brass figured that 20 was adequate for the individual soldier, as 20 was a huge improvement over the 8 from the garand

Stoner was asked this question in a interview with Kalashnikov, he said
>The Army felt 20 rnds were more then adequate, It wasn't until they ran across Mr. Kalashnikov's invention when they started to demand a magazine of 30 rounds

>>34253901
it's a really common fuddlore meme that persists to this day in the military

>>34252668
>There was less than 5 years that 20-round magazines were standard in the US.

Technically true, but they hung around a lot longer. My unit had big totes of Colt AR-15 20 rounders tucked away in storage in the early 00's and those were apparently still in use until the early 90's. I claimed a few of the better-preserved ones for myself.

>>34252764
That looks dope af, and I really want to watch it, but the audio is slicing my ears

>>34253756
I've heard this, but funny enough the closest I've ever experienced was a magazine that had to have pressure applied to it to send the bolt all the way forward

>>34258589
I had a buddy who used an old ass 20 rounder for rifle qual every year

>>34253662
>blaming MacNamara and not the ordinance board and Springfield Armory

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>>34252017
Clearance.

>>34261120
That makes sense

>>34260392
>implying he's blameless

>>34252017
What if there's 21 intruders?

>>34252053
Nigga the G3 is a much larger caliber, of course they werent 30rnd

20 is plenty.

>>34262332
That's what she said.

>>34262567
20cm is a well off cock

to atleast make it look like charlie had a chance or advantage.

>>34254043
I can't see an A1 clone without hearing the first chords of Rooster float into my head.

I'm building my 1st AR as we speak, a Gucci tacticool mallninja high speed low drag gun to end all tacticool mallninja high speed low drag guns.

Mark my words, though, an A1 build is going to be AR #2.

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>>34263220
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAE6Il6OTcs

Fucking love that album.
But yeah, an A1 clone is a nice rifle to have, they're full length but very light and handy, absolutely not obsolete.

We had stoppages issues with 20 rounds. I was not in Nam, but our army still uses the same model until 1985. Also, we were taught to fire 3 round bursts. So after the sixth burst, we reload.

>>34263572
Reminds me of the Terran theme from StarCraft.
https://youtu.be/xlSbPlKQ_dc?t=231

>>34263572
Gucci-anon here, and yeah, the A1 seems like such a perfect gun. That halfway point between old WWII/Korea-era rifles and the modern intermediate cartridge assault rifles that took over from the 80s onwards. In a lot of ways, it's a far more traditional and conventional rifle than the AK was (thanks, Russia, for stealing all the good Germans), and it's the contrast between this traditional weapon designed for Korea, the last of the old-style wars, being forced to adapt to Vietnam, the first of the new-style wars, that makes it so poignant in a fish-out-of-water sort of way such as in this guy: >>34252122 's pic.

The autistic history buff in me would just love to have an OG AR to go along with my Geissele'd out, free floating M-Lok'd, aimpoint-with-flip-away-magnifier-and-45-degree-backup-irons modern AR, just for that "from the sublime to the ridiculous" contrast.

And yeah, Alice in Chains was the best grunge band, and Dirt was the best album to come out of Seattle (that wasn't The Lonesome Crowded West or maybe Transatlanticism).

>>34263892
>Reminding my ADD of OG StarCraft
Fuck you, Anon. I actually had things to do today.

>>34262170
bayonet

>>34263892
Damn, I miss when Blizzard was cool.

>>34264108
The A1 is really pretty great, yeah.
I don't really care much for additional attachments and optics, so I'm fine with a plastic handguard and fixed carryhandle.

For a modernized take on a much similar rifle, I'd like a 20" pencil barrel, A1 style receiver in a gray finish, with a carbine stock (I like how they feel and handle) and some basic bitch MagPul plastic furniture colored Olive Drab or Foliage green, then fed some Mk.262 with some nice Lancer mags.
I don't need any quadrails.

>>34261120
it just works
todd.jpeg

>>34262903
he meant guys, she banged 20 guys in the first semester of college.

>>34253685
m'lady

>>34264228
No, I actually just meant a 20cm cock.

>>34264313
>measuring in cuck units
really makes you think

>>34252017
Because 20 rnds. was the capacity for the previous BAR lmg and the M-14, which was supposed to bridge combat rifles and LMGs. They hadn't just gone, fuck it, and built mags of all sizes basically

>>34264362
Metric is more practical for very precise measurements like manufacturing, imperial is good for quick measurements.

>>34252107
The disposable M16 mags were plastic

>>34252558
Fun fact: if you do this with a M1 Carbine using the 30 round mags, it will break the trigger group

>>34252070
Idk about you but my legit Colt 20 rounder had issues feeding the first and last rounds into my rifle where every other magazine I have doesn't, including my 40 and D60. Spring is not weak either, it's stiff as fuck.

>>34264542
"no"
read a book

>>34264509
locksmith here:

I'm totally the opposite. at the range, or when describing geographical distances, I use meters. describing liquids, I use liter and it's variants.

cutting metal on the small scale, though, I prefer thousandths of an inch.

>>34264542
No they weren't.

>>34252029
Because Eugen Stoner was so straight, he design straight mag wells for tapered cartridges.

>>34265540
Technically it was Jim Sullivan designing the AR15, Stoner designed the AR10, which the AR15 was largely based on.

I think that it'll work for 20rds, if the follower is allowed to tilt a little.

>>34253668
vid?

>>34252037
Not unless you wanted to jam the gun.

>>34267566
That is LITERALLY discussed in the replychain.

So you can prone.

>>34267664
prone to what

>>34252017
You can buy 100 round or more C mags.
Military come pre-loaded conformity !!

>m16 20 rounds
>sks 10
>Vietnam won
?????!?!?????

>>34268337
The Vietcong didn't win by military prowess, they won because the US went home, otherwise they were getting buttfucked pretty hard there at the end.

Also they had plenty of AKs.

>>34252017
Clip size, and box size.
The early 25 round mag while fitting in the early universal mag pouch well, did not work with the concept of clip charging. A ten round clip though, was close to the size of a five round clip of 7,62ball, and the 20 round mag fit in the mag pouch with room for a battle dressing at the base.

Yes, it's fucking ridiculous, but sometimes that is how things work.

>>34268364
>burgers unironically believe this

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>>34268400
>completely forgetting that there were massive protests against the war by a bunch of communists

>>34258589
The army is notorious for hording old shit. My last three units have had boxes full of old 20 rounders stuck in connexes, some with .223 marked floorplates which mysteriously vanished after I found them. Very puzzling.

>>34258589
I remember seeing the Nasty Girls deployed to the LA riots with 20 rounders in their A2s

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>>34268391
>m16 clips

>>34261120
wait what does the red line represent now? like it clears the ground what?

>>34268400
t.vietcong

Squinties suck at war, deal with it Nguyen.

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>>34268651
5.56 came on 10 round stripper clips, so they designed the M16 magazines to use the ammunition from two of the 10 round clips.

>>34252122
and the bayonet!

>>34268651
Yes, would you like to see some?

Got scads of M855/M856 on ten round clips in bandoliers, in cans.

This is assuming you were not making an idiotic attempt at the old "Clip Vs Magazine" meme.

>>34268400
Yes, the Vietcong were hardly stomping the Americans militarily.

Did you also forget about Americas political climate at home?

>>34253685
Belushi and Aykroyd were SEALS? Who's the guy on the left?

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>>34262181
Yes nigga thats what im getting at

>>34264108
>The autistic history buff in me would just love to have an OG AR to go along with my Geissele'd out, free floating M-Lok'd, aimpoint-with-flip-away-magnifier-and-45-degree-backup-irons modern AR, just for that "from the sublime to the ridiculous" contrast.
It's still a good design competitive with gucci ARs with a few updates (modern QC on parts, 30rd mags, 1:9 barrel). You can even stick an ACOG on the carry handle. The one thing it can't do as well as a railzmachine is night-fighting.

>>34252122
>>34254043
>>34252252
What's it like have such shit taste?

>>34269086
Nguyen pls go.

>>34264628

Greetings fellow locksmith, are you me? From another dimension or time perhaps?

>>34268651
>Being this retarded.

>>34268943
>good with updates
>1:9 barrel
Why would you want to make your rifle worse?
55gr and 1:12 is the perfect combination for catastrophic destabilization the second it hits your target.

>>34270210
I suppose you have a point with that.

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>>34269086
how does it feel to be wrong at life?

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>>34252107
modern USGI mags still aren't holy shit. I dont know if its the beat to shit rifles or beat to shit mags but they have trouble feeding, seating, staying in etc.

>mfw my command would probably to send us to war with this shit

>>34268391
It took the entire thread before somebody finally got it right. We used 20 round magazines because they would fit in the old M1956 ammo pouches that we used for the M14

>>34270210
This. I just ordered an M16A1 upper complete with 1:12 barrel. Retro build soon.

>>34270751
>We used 20 round magazines because they would fit in the old M1956 ammo pouches that we used for the M14
ye but aesthetics too

>>34252017
I dunno, but the fucking 20 round mags keep getting me killed in RS 2. Fuckin gooks.

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>>34252122
30 round mag says "sheltered trooper in police action who only leaves air conditioning and video games at fob in a convoy of high tech armoured vehicles"
20 round mag says "man who lives in the mud for months on end fighting an organized, well trained, and determined enemy"

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>>34252054

>>34271475
>air conditioning and video games at fob
Wait, really?

>>34268841
Not him, but I would
>>34270210
Some folks love having to shoot a variety of 5.56

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>>34252017
Because Eugene was a faggot

>>34262170
20 in the mag, 1 in the chamber. If you are dumb enough to keep a gun 1 round below its max capacity you are retarded.

>b-but GI mags don't hold 20 rounds reliably
Use a magpul or lancer 20 rounder?

>>34253696
That plus the lack of a chrome bore led to corrosion and dust issues.

>>34273930
Most 20rd GI mags can be loaded to capacity, the disposable ones are probably pretty rare.

>>34253668
But balancing the rifle on the magazine makes for a very stable shooting position.

>>34273974
the shitty disposable ones have a waffle design like bulgy AK mags.

>>34276196
No, actually, the waffle mags predate that (and were made out of steel), the disposable mags look pretty much like the later ones.