FMJ GENERAL: THEY ALL FALL TO HARDBALL

>>34237783
150% the original diameter is significant and the main goal is reducing over penetration

>>34237783
I'd like to see you triptard being shot even by some .22LR hollowpoint and watch you bleed, idiot.

>>34237783
I practice with FMJ but I carry with JHP that I shoplift in its easily lifted small boxes. Thank you Sig and federal for those bites size boxes. Never had a feeding issue in muh Shield 9mm

>>34237834
that's bit extreme

JHP isn't to hit more vitals it is to prevent overpenetration literal simpleton retard

>>34237836
>>34237811
>>34237783


Hi there!

You seem to have made a bit of a mistake in your post. Luckily, the users of 4chan are always willing to help you clear this problem right up! You appear to have used a tripcode when posting, but your identity has nothing at all to do with the conversation! Whoops! You should always remember to stop using your tripcode when the thread it was used for is gone, unless another one is started! Posting with a tripcode when it isn't necessary is poor form. You should always try to post anonymously, unless your identity is absolutely vital to the post that you're making!

Now, there's no need to thank me - I'm just doing my bit to help you get used to the anonymous image-board culture!

If you are carrying a 1911 then yeah go ahead and carry round nose, I'll be over here in the 21st century with a gun that works

Zed, you're a fat manchild

>>34237811
>150% the original diameter is significant
No, it's not. Read the pic again, slowly.
>and the main goal is reducing over penetration
If that were true, you'd be better off with lighter bullets and a lower power charge, which would reduce your penetration while not sacrificing feed reliability, in addition to reducing shot-to-shot times and sight picture recovery.

Instead, you get sold a cartridge that is near it's maximum charge, or even sold as +P, maximizing your recoil, increasing the time to recover your sight picture, increasing muzzle flash which is a detriment in low light as well as giving away your position...while at the same time having lower feed reliability and THEN NEEDING TO BE SLOWED DOWN AGAIN LIKE A FUCKING LEAD PARACHUTE BY EXPENSIVE FUCKING ENGINEERING AND FABRICATION OF THE PROJECTILE.

The only way this ever makes sense is if you're an ammunition salesman. Then it's literally as good as it gets... especially if you can get a load of saps to buy into it.

>>34237856
>Hi there!
>You seem to have made a bit of a mistake in your post. Luckily, the users of 4chan are always willing to help you clear this problem right up! You appear to have used a tripcode when posting, but your identity has nothing at all to do with the conversation! Whoops! You should always remember to stop using your tripcode when the thread it was used for is gone, unless another one is started! Posting with a tripcode when it isn't necessary is poor form. You should always try to post anonymously, unless your identity is absolutely vital to the post that you're making!
>Now, there's no need to thank me - I'm just doing my bit to help you get used to the anonymous image-board culture!

>>34237834
>>34237856
>>34237860
>>34237863
Shitposting. Discarded.

>>34237845
See:
>>34237877
You're welcome for the free education.

>>34237877
.75 is 150% of .5

your pic shows 165% size difference

>>34237877
That's why I carry light weight high velocity JHP. More kinetic energy, greatly reduced over penetration, and rapid followup shots from a pistol with sufficient ammunition capacity.

>>34237783
>Primary means of bullet killy is blood loss, or more specifically, loss of blood pressure to the brain
>More blood loss = bad because reasons

I missed your shitposts, Zed.

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>>34237878
Thank you for using a tripcode, tripfag.

>its a Zed Thread
Report, filter, and move on, folks

>>34237835
Well you're a dick.

>>34238002
np

>>34237783
look i love me some FMJ but the effectiveness of JHP goes beyond "making a bigger hole", it also involves violent energy transfer and hydrostatic shock.

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>>34237783
>penetration vs. expansion vs. reliability

why not use a Glock and Fiocchi EMB ammo and get all three? check mate, no gunners.

>>34237877
JHP gives you the same power but with less overpenetration. Are you special ed?

>>34237972
Blood loss only happens because (DRUM ROLL...) *you hit a blood vessel*

Read the OP pic again. Slowly. Go for comprehension. It's not hard, I know you can get it.

>>34238054
>and hydrostatic shock
>pistol

no, go to the place where they told you you'll get killed by a 50bmg's shockwave even if it misses you by a foot.

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>>34238065
>didn't read
>didn't comprehend
>calls other people dumb.
Yep, that's a shitposter fer ya!

>>34238054
>energy transfer and hydrostatic shock.
pic related

>>34237958
Those still depend on having more power than needed to both penetrate and expand. It's a waste of energy, at the expense of feed reliability, recoil, and muzzle blast.

>>34238091
"Human autopsy results have demonstrated brain hemorrhaging from fatal hits to the chest, including cases with handgun bullets"
- Institute of Forensic Medicine, Czech Republic

>>34238081
see above

>>34237783
Do you know know how area works? Have you never ordered a pizza?
.145 is 32.2% more diameter, year, but the AREA of the crossection increases from .63585 inches to 1.72033 inches. An increase in crosssectional area of 1.0845 square inches.

More than doubling the area of impact, almost tripling the area of impact you gigantic retard.

>>34238156
>implying the Czech Republic knows anything about medicine
How do they know that that's not because the victim's blood pressure spiked to 500 from the surprise and adrenaline of being shot?

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>>34237893
So you're saying that, knowing the logic of the argument I'm presenting is unassailable, you intentionally posted incorrect math hoping I would miss the mistake, after which you could say "haha, you didn't see the math was wrong, so I'm right about everything now."?

How sad for your debate skills!

Especially since I responded by saying that the % increase in size was irrelevant, irrespective of whether or not you got the math right. So, not only are you wrong, but your plan to weasel out of being wrong didn't work, leaving you pic related.

>>34238171
no medically illiterate bummfuck, brain hemorrhaging happens during events of brain undersupply with blood because of loss of blood pressure and blood loss too. it's counterintuitive and not known to non medically trained persons but it's still a fact.

>>34238182
your math isnt only wrong, your looking at the wrong numbers. Bullets are 3 dimensional and your only looking at the diameter, a 1 dimensional measurement.

Has anyone made a tripfag tier list yet? Because I know a candidate for "Might actually have brain damage" tier.

>>34237783
With this argument, why not just shoot tiny needles instead of bullets?

>>34238064
bretty neat

>>34238179
I assume the medical community would know if brain hemorrhage was a common side effect of gunfight-level stress

>>34238195
I enjoy you calling certified medical experts "medically illiterate"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rf-KpVgus8

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>>34237783

>>34238177
So you're saying that a hit to the heart, CNS, or aortic arch WONT end in the destruction of that organ and rapid incapacitation if you use FMJ?

Because... heh... lemmie tell ya, that supposition is DEMONSTRABLY WRONG lol

(for people following along, Anon doesn't actually realize that you either get a critical hit or you don't, and that the pic that he looked at like a dog watching television was telling him that the little bit of extra diameter are unlikely to result in a hit... he can't get it... he doesn't understand.. and this is about to get REALLY amusing)

>>34238002
Good idea, but I regularly browse /wfg/. Is there a way to not filter stuff with wfg or another string in the title?

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>>34238200
>my math
Yeah.. it was not my math. It was Giddy's.
Try harder.

>>34238232
>>34238241
None of that is what I said and I only went off your OP pic you idiot. But increasing crossecitional area almost 3 times is good enough for me to carry jhp.

Shot placement is key, and i hit his heart or an artery id like the think he couldnt just plug the neat hole with his finger while ems comes, which has happened.

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What HPs are you running in your pistols, /k/? I've got 230 grain Speer Gold Dot JHP in my 1911, and ultra hot Cor-Bon +p+ JHP on my P-07 and 92FS.

>>34238255
*If i mange to hit his heart or an artery* is what i mean.

>>34238262
147 gr HST 9mm.

>>34238217
you have a very optimistic view of doctors' scientific competence.

>>34238211
You can put a needle in a brain, heart, or blood vessel and not destroy it. You can't do that with a bullet, even a .22 caliber one.

Did you read about that old man that got a 1 shot kill with .22LR? Yeah. He hit the heart.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/world-war-ii-veteran-kills-home-intruder-cites-defense-article-1.1151926

case closed.
FMJ - 1
JHP - 0

>>34237877
> You'd be better off with lighter bullets and a lower power charge

Not necessarily a bad option. If you have a link to some 9mm TMJ/FMJ that doesn't over penetrate past 20", hook us up. Otherwise, I'm not risking my daughter's skull down a hallway.

> Instead, you get sold a cartridge that is near it's maximum charge, or even sold as +P, maximizing your recoil.

Depending on the bullet, without that increase of velocity, the bullet would expand even less. Increasing the bullet too much, like 357 Sig loaded with standard 9mm bullets, can in fact achieve insufficient penetration.

> THEN NEEDING TO BE SLOWED DOWN AGAIN LIKE A FUCKING LEAD PARACHUTE BY EXPENSIVE FUCKING ENGINEERING AND FABRICATION OF THE PROJECTILE.

So you're saying if I pack more energy behind a properly constructed projectile, the target's tissue and bone will expand even more energy to stop it, creating a deeper and (likely insignificant in your opinion) wider wound channel, assuming the bullet stays inside them?

Also, Zed, what happened to you, man? You used to be cool, but when you came back it's been 95% shit posts. Seriously though, if you have those 9mm F/TMJs that don't over-penetrate, share your finds.

>>34237783
Well now that you debunked JHP, what about trident ammo and the wound vectors they create?

>>34238279
Cops use HP
FMJ-1
JHP- However many niggers get killed every year that libs cry about.

case closed.

>>34238266
>>34238255
If you manage to hit his heart or an artery, then it doesn't matter if you used JHP or FMJ.

I'll let that fact sink in for a second, see if the light bulb comes on...

>>34237835
Personally I open up the boxes to 'inspect' ammo and take a round at a time.
I usually pretend I'm putting it back and just stick it between my sausage fingers and smuggle them out in my finger fat.

I want to make the switch from jhp to fmj but I still have some hornady left over and I carry a glock19 which eats anything. I already made the fmj switch on my pocket guns because they wouldn't feed well with hollow tips. My only worry is the retards who are like YOU CARRY FMJ?!?!?! and me not wanting to get into it with them at the store/range... but I'm done buying hollows, once I get through my hornady's

>>34238293
>cops
Yeah, heh, read my OP again.

>>34238294
Unless he or some good samartiqn plugs the neat hole with their finger until ems comes. which has happened. like I said in my post you idiot.

almost 3 times crossectional area makes jhp worth it. again.

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>replying to zedposts

>>34238303
not an argument, nothing in your OP about how many niggers get killed by cops using JHP every damn day.

>>34238279
there's many cases of 22lr killing, my ex gf had her friend die in her arms from a 22lr and he was a bear, 6'5 250lbs guy, happened in spokane wa about 15 years ago. I am wanting to make the switch from JHP to FMJ myself...

>>34238200
>a 1 dimensional measurement.
2 dimensions, genius.

>>34238214
it has 15in in gelatine but also sails through windshields like it was nothing.

>>34238320
diameter is a 1 dimensional measurement idiot. Tell me how diameter can tell me 2 dimensions.

zed, what fmj do you use and what gun do you carry em in?

>>34238350
turn your trip back on zed/callum/hunter

>>34238359
shut the fuck up you jealous faggot, I'm trying to have a discussion here. I'm this guy
>>34238318
>>34238300
You're just like a leftist and his "muh nazis" or a pol storm fag with his "muh jews". grow up homo

>>34238377
>turn your trip back on zed/callum/hunter

>>34238385
hurr duurrr anyone who I don't agree with is a jew/nazi/tripfag

>>34238400
Just you in this thread zed/callum/hunter.

>>34238275
+p or subsonic? I've put 5 boxes of subsonic through for testing (and it was not cheap) without a single misfire.

Wish I'd know about the dry wall thing first though, or I would have went with a polymer tip version instead.

Literally every single police department and alphabet soup agency has it wrong, but some fat no guns tripfag on a somalian camel herding board has figured it all out: the thread.

>>34238412
so which one are you? zed callum or hunter?

>>34238422
Hst expands in drywall just fine, also 5 layers of denim. Not 12 layers though or a heavy winter coat. I have +p but i never use it, makes my gun too snappy and regular is the same price where i get it.

>>34238439
the guy saying when JHP expands its makes it almost 3x larger as it travels. THe same reason a xlarge pizza is 40% larger than a large, and demonstrably the better choice when its 2 dollars more.

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>>34238262
60gr gimmick rounds.

>>34238350
I use PPU exclusively, in my Glock 19, Ruger LC9s Pro, CZ82, and Colt 1911 Government Model.

>>34238316
I never said JHP can't kill people, I'm just saying it's not worth the extra expense/recoil/feed reliability issues.

>>34237783
fuck off you aren't even the original zed

>>34238917
What recoil? I use standard pressure HST and it kicks no more than my plnking blazer brass,

what feed reliability? Ive never had a jam using any kind of ammo in any of my guns because i dont buy nigger guns.

Expense is the only thing that is MAYBE an argument, but i buy my HSTs for 19.99 for a box of 50, and thats still cheaper than any other caliber i shoot and that one box will last me 6 months, just cycling through it a mag at a time when i go shooting.
>>34238906
>Carrying PPU
>For defense

YOU know you can buy shitty monarch brand ammo in any caliber at academy for 1/10th the price of buying actually PPU and its the exact same ammo right? Even has PPU headstamps.

Fucking idiot.

>>34237783

I've been on /k/ for almost 10 years and this is by far the most retarded thread I've ever seen.

>>34238240
Just filter cancerous trips as you come across them. By the way, Zed and Giddy are the same faggot.

>>34237877
>not 150%
Hmmmm lets seeeeeee:

1.5 x .45 = .675

Wow zed, you're right for once! that's more than 150% expansion!

>reducing power of rounds drastically wont reduce reliability in factory guns
Uhhhhh, yeah....

>>34238070
You do realize that your body has a lot of those right? all throughout the skin and organs even.

>>34238091
What is courtney & courtney for 500, alex?

>>34238179
Presumably because most people dont get brain damage after seeing a scary movie.
~~~~

Now onto the fun part of why zed's wrong(oh god ive typed this out way too many times)

People transitioned from FMJ to JHP type designs for a number of reasons but the long story short was that they weren't satisfied with FMJs terminal performance.

why, you ask?

A. FMJ produces a sub caliber wound, tissue stretches out of the way of the bullets passage leaving a relatively smooth, small, and easily clotted up wound. Flat nosed bullets do not have this issue, a phenomena that has been known for literally centuries now.

B. Due to FMJs rounded nose the bullet tends to move off course when encountering tissues of seriously varying density(typically bone). This means a bullet that was perfectly aimed may very well not hit it's target inside the body.

JHP's solve both of these issues and offers significantly larger wound volume than FMJ. The only two perceived downsides are cost and feeding. Both of these are essentially illusory as modern handguns are designed around feeding JHPs reliably and JHPs with identical recoil impulses to common practice FMJ are easily available.

Zed eternally BTFO'd

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>>34237783
The point of JHP is not to make a bigger hole, it's to transfer the most energy from when the bullet was launched to the inside of the target. Energy is the ability to cause change, in this case damage.

This energy is imparted via a force from the explosive going off, F=MA. When the bullet is in flight, it's just momentum, P=MV. To convert this momentum into a damaging force, you just reverse the original formula to, MA=F. Now in this case, if a bullet hits a person and passes all the way through, it slows down a bit but not all the way. You've wasted energy you could be using to damage and incapacitate your target.

The solution is to make more surface area to slow the bullet down faster after it enters the body. If the bullet stops in the target, all of that P is converted to F and maximum damage for a mass accelerated by the gun is achieved.

The issue with using a lighter or slower load is that you're not causing as much damage because you don't have the M and you don't have the A to create enough V to make P to damage the target as effectively

tl;dr
>it's not about a bigger hole, it's about stopping the bullet in the target

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>>34239538
>wound volume
wewlad

You're also still missing the point: JHP makes the assumption that you're at all likely MISS THE CRITICAL AREA by less than the expanded diameter. I don't even know where to begin calculating how completely UNLIKELY that chance is.

You either miss or you hit. If you miss, it doesn't matter if your bullet expands or not. If you hit, it doesn't matter then either. If you think otherwise, you're just foolish.

>Due to FMJs rounded nose the bullet tends to move off course when encountering tissues of seriously varying density(typically bone).
Oh, and the expanding lead mushroom is a flesh carving laser beam? No, JHP deflects off in different directions too. Nice try.

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>>34237783

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>>34239947
>wall of wewtext
>it's all about energy transfer
>energy transfer
You tried.

>>34237856
This, trip faggots can fuck off

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>>34239104
>YOU know you can buy shitty monarch brand ammo in any caliber at academy for 1/10th the price of buying actually PPU and its the exact same ammo right? Even has PPU headstamps.
Yes, I do know that, because that's exactly what I do. All of my PPU came in Monarch boxes from Academy.

>>34237783

> What is surface area

mfw I realize this is a fucking zed thread literally as I press submit

>>34237877
>lighter bullets and a lower power charge
>more reliable
nogunz detected

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>>34238982
I think I am.

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>>34237783
>Zed shitting up a storm again
Start placing bets on how long he can keep this thread going for lads.

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>>34240017
I just laid out in scientific terms why hollow point and expanding ammunition are effective and frequently employed.

Energy transfer is the only point of a weapon. To induce disorder in the target to render it incapacitated.

You've got a shitty trip code and smug reaction pictures.

You sure convinced me with those hot opinions!

>>34240058
>Zed
>Is still here

Huh. Is that 5.7 guy still here, too? Marissa or whatever?

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JHP looks prettier.

>feeding issues

>>34240064
>what is recoil impulse
It's not hard to get a lighter bullet to cycle in a firearm designed for heavier ones. Or heavier ones in firearms designed for lighter ones.

This isn't even hard.

.45 diameter = .159 inch squared area
.75 diamter = .44 inch square area

Hollow point creates a wound channel with 2.76x greater area

Sounds p good

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>>34240118
>heavier ones on guns designed for lighter ones

Yes

>lighter ones in guns designed for heavier ones.

Remember that F=MA thing we talked about earlier? It says "no"

This is some next level shitposting. I am thoroughly impressed.

>>34240149
Not F=ma, F=dp/dt

>>34240184
Look who passed calculus 1 this spring!

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>>34237783
op, you are stupid.
the JHP has almost 3 times more area than the FMJ

>>34238262
Ed Brown 1911 magazine?

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>>34240239
No, doctoral candidate in physics. Thanks.

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>>34240356
>High Voltage
>Not enough to turn you into giblets

Anon, please...

I have learned nothing from this thread. In fact, I am concerned I may be dumber. And I still don't know whether the cheap russian lacquered FMJ is any better or worse than a JHP.
Thank you 4chan.

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>>34240450
High voltage an a flammable mixture of isobutane in the chambers can make for a very bad time.
The hazards are everywhere. Just about everything is a silent murderer.

>>34238275
my nigga

>>34240457
Well...death by firearms is almost exclusively by blood loss, with complicated injuries following after and septic being a distant third.

I honestly don't know if HP/JHP's are more or less effective than FMJ's, but from a physiological point, whichever causes the quickest amount of blood loss is the more effective one. Maybe the FMJ causes a clean wound channel from front to back, producing two leaky holes in the human body. Maybe the JHP severs a very necessary blood vessel.

All I know is that the usual rule of thumb is that when you're shot, your survival rate drops by 10% every minute before first aid. Getting shot more speeds up the process. I guess the only real reason to carry HP's are because of potential collateral damage that could happen.

>>34240487
Touche. What is it that you have chilled? I don't think you're making racing fuel in the near future.

>>34240637
What do you mean by chilled? No racing fuel or bootleg here, just some good, solid, physics.

Explosive ammo is objectively better than HP. No overpenetration when it explodes inside the body (blast focused forwards), giant hole for a wound channel with everything around the endpoint shredded and shattered, no need for a strong powder charge to push a lead umbrella through flesh so recoil can be minimized for a given caliber.

Why do we not have defensive HE ammo?

>>34240795
How much explosive are you actually going to be able to compact into a 147gr 9mm bullet though? Enough to dig a hole through the lungs, aorta, or CNS?

>>34240487
well drilling stuff?

>>34240818
Fuddy Five has the advantage here in being able to pack a lot more C4 inside the hollowed out body of an FMJ bullet.

>>34237856
/thread

>>34238179
>implying Czechia doesn't know anything about guns

Nice b8 m8

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>>34240865
Bolts, about 1" in diameter, 16" in length.
They were for mounting magnets to support frames. About 0.5-1 mR/hr at 1ft. Not something you'd want to carry around all day every day, but safe to be in the same room with.

>>34240149
>1911's were designed for 230gr bullets
>185gr bullets work just fine.

I am enjoying this.

>>34241046
>AR-15 designed for 55gr bullets
>therefore obviously 77gr bullets do nothing
If JHP is meme, shoot yourself in the head with JHP and then FMJ and see which works better

>>34241094
whew I wonder what kind of penetration you could get from an 1:12 twist AR-15 shooting 50 grain or below hardened steel penetrators (jacketed)?

>>34241094
You don't seem to understand the discussion, or have nothing intelligent to add, or do understand and are just posting irrelevant and meaningless jibberish just to be typing things on the internet.

What you're doing is has a name. It's called shitposting.

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>>34241046
>all modern 1911s were designed for grandpa's ammunition from the year 1911

>engineering tolerances for reliability don't exist

You ever know someone who is so stupid they don't know they're stupid so they feel smug about being smart? That's you.

>a 50% larger hole is not better gais.

>better shoot at people with bb guns

>>34237877
Isn't the reason to dump energy faster zed, not a bigger hole? I might be wrong.

>>34241162
9x18mm will cycle with grain weights from 80 to 158.

I am enjoying this.

>>34237783
Hey, Zed. How's it going?

>>34238285
>If you have a link to some 9mm TMJ/FMJ that doesn't over penetrate past 20"
It's called .380 ACP

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>>34237783
"The only reason why the old Snider rifle was done away with was that it was not a long-range weapon and its trajectory was so high, but at a short distance it was a most powerful man-stopper ... the bullet of the Martini-Henry not being a proper man-stopper." - Capt. Augustus B. Wylde.

"The Snider bullet was probably the most destructive small-arm projectile ever used in an army. When travelling at the same velocity it produced more extensive fractures of bones than any small-bore bullet, dumdum or other." - Surgeon-Col. W. F. Stevenson.

"I think some of the most fearful wounds were those inflicted by the Snider bullets of the Indian troops." - Maj. E. Gambier Parry, Suakin Field Force.
"The old Snider bullet, partly hollow, of soft lead, and large calibre, was a very effective hitter, when it did hit. It was the most effective hitter that has ever been extensively used in war." - "A Marksman," The Spectator, Oct. 31, 1896.
"The Snider bullet was the most destructive bullet ever employed." - Surgeons W. W. Keen & J. Chalmers DaCosta.
"The heavier the projectile the greater its stunning effect and 'stopping power'" - Surgeon Charles Stonham. (Most surgeons expressed this opinion.)

"The expansion undergone by the Snider bullet and its splintering were so great that it was practically an explosive one. With the Martini-Henry missile, the bullet being composed of lead mixed with tin, the deformity on contact was much less." - Surgeon-Maj. Andrew Duncan, 3rd Goorkha Rifles.

"The bullet was a very formidable one--it had a large hollow in the head, and on striking flesh opened out, inflicting a most ghastly wound, and its stopping power was undoubted." - Lt. Col. W. N. Lockyer, R.A.

"The Martini is humane beside the Snider." - Editorial in "Arms and Explosives," May 1900.

Lt. Col. F. F. R. Burgess, Indian Army, re the Snider: "Its bullet caused the most frightful wounds, especially at short ranges, worse than those of any so-called 'explosive' soft-nosed expanding small-bore bullets used generally for sporting purposes. ... It was made hollow in front like an 'express' bullet, the lead being spun over the point which appeared solid; in fact, the bullet, except for a slight partition wall between the hollows of the base and point, was hollow from end to end. This caused it to expand perfectly on striking and being of soft lead it did so with terrible effect on the human or animal body."

Surgeon-Maj.-Gen. J. B. Hamilton's description of the snider bullets: "A hollow, filled by a plug of wood or clay, was introduced into the front part of the bullet, and the base was also hollowed and plugged, a diaphragm of solid lead being left in the center. This was a most deadly proectile, the plug in front expanding the bullet on impact and causing terrible injuries to soft parts and bones. The next step was to form a hollow in the front, over which the lead was 'drawn,' leaving a space filled with air; then came a solid portion of lead, and finally a hollow in the base plugged with clay. This was a more deadly bullet than the previous one, and its 'smashing' powers were so great that it was adopted for sporting purposes. On soft-bodied animals, such as tigers and panthers, its effects were wonderful, the biggest tiger often dropping dead to a single shot when well placed. This form of Snider bullet, though called 'expanding,' was really explosive, its bursting power being probably due to the air it contained being greatly compressed on striking, acting like a small charge of powder exploded by the impact. This bullet was far more deadly to man and animals than anything that had before been invented, excepting, of course, 'explosive' bullets."

>>34238334
a circle has two dimensions
a cube has three dimensions

>>34238334
What is a sphere.

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>>34241198
Naw man, words like "energy dump" or "energy transfer" or similar are a long-debunked mechanism of wounding. Handguns wound through tearing and crushing tissue. The debate is whether tearing and crushing MORE tissue, as JHP would tend to do, actually translates into a more effective projectile. It's a tempting thought, and seems to be an obvious cut-and-dried "yes".

But human physiology isn't that simple. Some people hit with .45 JHP will walk away, some people hit with .22LR RNL will die on the spot, still others will be stopped but continue to fight, others will not die immediately but several minutes or hours after... It's clear that there's more going on than just "bigger hole, better bullet".

Here's the answer to this big puzzle: Shot placement is EVERYTHING. You either hit something critical (heart, CNS, aortic arch, major blood vessel) or you don't. Period. And if you get a hit, it doesn't matter if it's hit with JHP or FMJ. The heart will stop, the spine or brain will misfire massively, the major blood vessel will bleed uncontrollably irrespective of the bullet configuration.

That means that the the idea of JHP being more effective really boils down to the idea that you're likely, at all, to miss a critical hit by just those couple of tenths of an inch the expansion gives you, and are willing to sacrifice a lot of other things for that.

No other explanation has any logical validity, not even "overpenetration", which I have already dealt with above. It's just... so much marketing nonsense.

>>34241481
Notice me Zed

>>34238318
>my ex gf had her friend die in her arms from a 22lr

I smell attention whore bullshit. Not that 22LR can' kill but 'in her arms'

Cringeworthy larping.

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>>34241252
>soviet engineered straight blowback pistol with weak recoil spring doesn't care that much what shitty soviet ammunition it uses.

Wow isn't that amazing it's almost like they specifically designed it to use poorly toleranced ammunition.

>>34241481
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V36leMeEEjo

Less effective than snider.

Stop and contemplate.

See also .577 tranter.

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>>34241419
>This form of Snider bullet, though called 'expanding,' was really explosive, its bursting power being probably due to the air it contained being greatly compressed on striking, acting like a small charge of powder exploded by the impact.
This sounds completely plausible and legitimate, and I have no reason whatsoever to question the understanding of terminal ballistics of a Surgeon Major General from the 1800's.

>>34241493
Ooo, my mistake. Meant to type "9x19mm."
I don't know of any 9mm Mak in 158 grains, do you?

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>>34241481
>energy transfer isn't what does the damage

By that logic bullets sitting totally still should slaughter millions of babies because they're full metal jacket. Has nothing to do with energy right?

>>34241488
she probably choked on it

>>34241566
I think Zed means that it's penetration, not energy transfer, that causes a hole to be formed in a human body.

If the charge and mass of the bullet are held equal, there's no difference in "energy transfer" unless there's through-and-through penetration.

>>34241481
>>34241198
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0803/0803.3051.pdf

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm

>>34241532
>Surgeon-Maj.-Gen. J. B. Hamilton

Yeah he saw a shit load more ballistic injuries than you and his statement simply outlines what happens when you get hit by 480 grains of .577 lead with a lump of clay, a wood peg and an air cavity in it.

Deded.

>>34241603
>>34241532
>>34241419

Not to mention his medical knowledge is outdated and therefore not relevant to a modern personal defense scenario.

>>34241599
>http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm
>"Also, and I may be going out on a limb here, I'm not altogether certain that hardball is necessarily a bad choice for the reasons given above. Look, folks, you don't have to blow the heart into a million pieces; you've just got to hit it, and you don't have to make the liver look like it just spent 10 minutes in a Cuisinart. Again, you've just got to hit it.

Yes, exactly my point Anon. Thank you.

>>34241616
Not to mention that Anon's entire discussion concerns RIFLE bullets, which are obviously not within the scope of this discussion.

I don't CC .50BMG, do you?

>>34241616
This dude literally performed and observed surgeries involving these specific wounds on a regular basis. I frankly don't see how his not understanding what causes a HP bullet to fragment so violently in some cases can totally discredit his observations of bullet wounds. Not like he's being used as a physics source or something.

Has anybody considered the risks that carrying expanding rounds have on subsequent civil suits? Looks bad.

Not to mention that FMJ is cheaper and you should practice with the same ammunition that you'll use for personal defense. Any increase in price means less frequency of practice, which is really what the focus should be on for personal defense.

A drop in reliability of feeding is really unacceptable in a personal defense scenario, so I don't know how people justify it.

>>34241660
Not unless my cock counts, Zed.

By the way, you know who I am.

>>34241686
He's referring to bullets that are no longer used, in scenarios irrelevant to modern personal defense, with knowledge that is supremely out of date.

Your doctor doesn't still use a saw and ether, does he?

>>34241640
>ignores rest of link about how much more impressive wounds are involving modern expanding ammo
>ignores parts talking about how shitty .380 and 9mm ball are
>ignores what he carries himself

K

>>34241717
So the article is either irrelevant and inconsistent or it's all Hoyle Law.

You can't have it both ways.

>>34241688
Who are you?

>>34241768
Polsky

>>34241709
change in laws of physics and human anatomy since his observation. None

>>34241789
I bet you believe every war memoir you read too.

>>34241789
Protip: all those guys who type just like zed when they argue but dont have a zed name are still zed.

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>>34237783

Lt-General Sir Gerald de Courcy Morton, once Adjutant-General of the Indian Army. "Noble" and "simple" he may have been amongst his comrades, but he was also the figure behind the development of the notorious dumdum bullet, which "expanded on impact like those used in big game hunting." This seemed unethical, but was justified by Surgeon Major J. B. Hamilton and Sir John Ardagh at the Hague in 1899, on the grounds that the "savage, like the tiger" needed to be stopped in his tracks (O'Connell 232).

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>>34241801
Wrong.

>>34241777
Hey man! Nice trips!

>>34238906
why 9mm or .45 if you use FMJ? You mentioned weight and followup speed earlier. You could have a lighter gun in .380 FMJ for the same effect as 9mm FMJ, but lighter weight and recoil. I see the CZ82 but that's a metal frame so it's not lighter, I mean like a poly .380. I'm NOT trolling here, I just wanna know why use 9mm instead of .380

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>>34239999
>what is wound cavitation
>bullets just go in and out without doing anything but cut holes in people
>replying to a troll thread
>zed logic
Zed, stop. Pls

>>34241660
>Not to mention that Anon's entire discussion concerns RIFLE bullets, which are obviously not within the scope of this discussion.
>I don't CC .50BMG, do you?

.577 revolvers

Go look it up.

>>34240077
Another day or so.

>>34241821
I'm honestly amazed how well you have this board pegged. Your threads are always a laugh.

Regret not visiting /k/ as often.

How have you been doing?

>>34241851
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oiiv9buHHag

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>>34238262
124/147 HST's

>people replying to a zed thread

Friendly reminder tripfags are cancer and should be filtered by all.

>>34241898
They've been replying for years. They're not going to stop now.

>>34241861
Good to hear from you man. I'm doing well, you?

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>>34238488
What dem? 60gr baby nukes?

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>>34241898
This is now a snider thread

>>34241918
Doing pretty well. Finished up college. Just shitposting now.

I managed to find the part I needed on gunbroker, but it ended up being almost $40, so I didn't bother.

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>>34238917
What does a JHP have to do with felt recoil? At all?

>"risking" penetration
motherfucker I don't WANT penetration, if I kill someone through a wall I'll never get out of court. as long as your JHP gets past 12" who cares? it'll be less vulnerable to collateral damage.

ballistics are more than expansion

what is hydrostatic shock

what are revolvers

come back with a full formed argument, not a jpeg with 1 sentence on it

>>34241990
>what is

What a meme response

>Hydrostatic shock

What a meme argument

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bumping for sniders

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>>34242016
I cri evrytim

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577 Snider cartridges L to R – Mark IV blank, Mark III blank (white paper wad), buckshot cartridge from Dum-Dum Arsenal India, and military ball Mark IX

>>34242046
No I cry,
Snider cries
Save him.

>>34242050
>from Dum-Dum Arsenal India

Where Surgeon Major J. B. Hamilton was posted next to. What made snider cartridges.

Where the word dumdum originated.

Yes. Really.

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>>34237783
Learn math

Area of a circle = pi * (radius squared)

unexpanded area ≈ 0.16 square inches
expanded area ≈ 0.43 square inches

Volume of direct trauma = expanded area * wound channel length. Presuming a FBI standard penetration of (conservatively) 16 inches.

unexpanded direct trauma volume ≈ 2.56 cubic inches
expanded direct trauma volume ≈ 6.88 cubic inches

That's an increase of 268%.

>>34242111
OR

And I'm just saying

How about .577 expanding to .620 + fragmentation.

A Snider squibbed in the jungle—
Somebody laughed and fled,
And the men of the First Shikaris
Picked up their Subaltern dead,
With a big blue mark in his forehead
And the back blown out of his head.

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>>34242134
I mean, sure. That's even better.

>>34239947
if you are going to try and use physics to make a point, at least use it right. The concept you should be referring to is impulse, and no you cant use force and energy/momentum interchangeably

>>34242158
A poem wriiten for The Constabulary Gazette, February 1900; in which the writer laments the passing of the beloved Snider after use in the Force for some 40 years.

"And must I part with thee, old friend,
That I had thought my own,
Through ups and downs together we
For twenty years have known?
For twenty years to keep thee clean
It's been my task with pride;
I've treated thee, and well I might,
As if thou wert my bride.

"And so thou wert, and faithful, too;
And truth if I'm to tell.
There never smiled a fickle maid
That I could love so well.
When I was but a beardless boy,
Fresh from my rustic cot
I gave thee all the love I knew,
And joined with thee my lot.

"And never since did I have cause
To rue the day we met;
In all those twenty years there's not
One moment of regret.
When other friends forsook our cause,
And shadows dimmed our way,
Thou wert to me as faithful then
As on our wedding day.

"But now we're forced,
- oh, cruel force!
A forced divorce to seek,
And well I know what thou would'st say
If thou could'st only speak;
Then thou would'st tell the powers that be
How little they regret
The loss of friends whose services
So soon thee can forget.

"I do not know thy destined end,
Nor do I know my own,
But thou art 'cast' and so shall I
When health and strenghth have flown;
And so shall stunted 'Brass-nose", too
(When the Fates decree);
Whose Frenchy name I ill can bear,
While thinking still of thee.

"It might assuage my present grief
If I had any fears
That thou could'st prove unfaithful, or
Had'st seen thy sum of years;
But no: the ups and downs we've met
Have left thee fresh and fair,
While on my thatchless brow are seen
The wrinkled signs of care.

"Good-bye! a thousand times good-bye!
And though we're forced to part,
The memories that around thee cling
Shall never leave this heart;
While 'Henry Martin' must be pleased,
In spite of his descent,
With cold discipline's loveless care
To make himself content.

>>34242182
"For I am not disposed to hug
Each upstart that appears,
And treat him as I would a friend
Of more than twenty years;
And little 'Brass-nose' with his 'jags',
May rest assured that he
Shalt never know the loving care
That I bestowed on thee".

February 1900 - NEMO

>>34240356
What are you working on?

t. humble physics bachelor

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'Ello ello

Wots all this going on in a snider thread then?

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>>34241459
>>34241479

>>34242253
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZOTFOSYMck

>>34241459
>>34241479
r, theta, phi
D = 2r at any value of theta and phi
for a circle phi = 0

even in cartplebian coordinate system a diameter is still a single dimension. You do know what a dimension is, right?

I'm not even going to dignify Zed's retardation with a response. Someone has obviously never heard of a probability matrix.

>>34242309

I think the standard o education has fallen.

That a physics graduate would have so little grasp of the implication of a shadow cast by a two dimension object like a circle in resolving problems in three dimensions using vector math. It's not really even graduate tier.

I've I'd realized we were in primary school discussing areas and volumes then perhaps you would be less confused.

>>34240069
dude I've been around since svtstan was shitposting and johnny2.0 still did threads, the original Zed did higher quality shitposting than the poor excuse for bait that you're putting out

>>34241918
The heart has an 8 cm width.
The area of an 8 cm circle is 50.26 cm^2.
The width of an unexpanded bullet is .45", so a valid hit is the circle of a 10.29cm, or 83.16 cm^2.
The additional .145" expansion of the hollowpoint adds .74cm to the effective diameter of the target. An expanded hollowpoint has a target area of 95.55 cm^2, a difference of 14%.

JHP expansion is equivalent to shooting at a 14% larger circular target.

If you're talking about a 2"x36" square like a spine (72"sq), the difference between the FMJ target area (104"sq) and the JHP area (114.8"sq) is 10%.

How much is a 10-14% larger target area worth?
What's the reliability difference between the two rounds?

I'm not sure it's quite as clear cut as you're suggesting.

(Apologies for mixed units.)

>>34237783
>He doesn't know geometry
> in 2017
> not knowing a 50% increase in diameter can net an almost doubling of surface area due to π*r*r
I know it's to prevent over penetration versus cavitation, but your shit's all retarded

>>34238488
I used to carry those because the would /allegedly/ penetrate IIIa (according to a MAC video). But then I switched to 147 gr HP because of I was more likely to used my 9mm innawoods and I need penetration, and critters don't wear vests.

>>34237783
Filtered

>>34237856
T h I s t b h f a m alam

>>34242350
You're wrong about so many things here. Let me correct you:

1. Yes, I am zed from eons ago.
2. This is not shitposting.
3. This is not bait.

If you're upset that I'm 100% right about this, and have BTFO of all the arguments against me, that's fine. Sit there and be mad. But don't try to spew out all this ego-defense nonsense in an attempt to save face.

>>34242404
If you hit a heart with a .22, it stops.
If you hit a heart with a .50AE JHP, it stops.

There's no such thing as "more dead". You either hit, or you don't. JHP would only help in the highly unlikely near-miss scenario that the OP pic has already talked about.

I can keep repeating this same thing as many times as needed. I enjoy it.

Zed, Zed
sick in the head
take an FMJ aspirin
and stay in bed

>>34237783
>miss a blood vessel

Well if the guy gets hit. Yes I expect to draw blood which means the bullet hit it.

>>34244683
Obviously it's talking about a major blood vessel. You don't bleed out and die from a papercut.
Think, please.

huh

>>34237783
OH SHIT
ANOTHER ZED THREAD

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>Every law enforcement agency uses hollowpoints
>Revolvers stayed in service so long because SWCHP was the only decent pre-war defensive load
>Expanding bullets are required to shoot animals ethically
>Expanding bullets only create more tissue damage, not that big of a deal
>JHPs are totally a meme guys

Fucking tripfag cancer thread

>>34237856
This

>>34237783
energy transfer due to the greater area is much greater youre a dumb faggot

>>34238917
WHAT FUCKING FEED ISSUES!? God damnit its like youve never shot firearms or actually put jhp through your pistol! Ive been cycling speer through my multiple 92 series pistols as the ammo becomes tarnished and it has NEVAR misfed. The ONLY way i got my 92 pistols to malfunction is to not clean then for hundreds of rounds and feed wolf steel case through "misplaced" usmc m9 mags.

tl;dr
>WHAT FEED ISSUES!?

>>34244739
How's the weather in hell mormon?

>>34244633
Wound characteristics isnt black and white anon. I agree with your statement that hitting the vitals with anything results in dead, but i doubt getting hit in the stomach with an expanding jhp wont hurt and cause slightly more tissue damage than a fmj. So its worth it to me.

>>34238334
surface area

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>>34237783
A hollow-point bullet is an expanding bullet that has a pit or hollowed out shape in its tip often intended to cause the bullet to expand upon entering a target in order to decrease penetration and disrupt more tissue as it travels through the target.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow-point_bullet

>>34238120
> at the expense of feed reliability
you keep bringing this up and yet I have literally never had a problem with any hornady jhp round feeding through any of my glocks ever.

>>34238917
If you have a gun that has reliability issues with jhp you have a bunch of other problems.

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>carrying guns that have feeding issues with common self-defense ammo
You deserve to be culturally enriched.

>>34237889
>citing your post as education

Keks. You didn't even have any sauces to back up your evidence.

>>34244618
>I'm 100% right about this, and have BTFO of all the arguments against me

Sauce your argument with sauces that aren't shitposts on 4chan. Also you can't cite yourself.

>>34244633
>There's no such thing as "more dead".
Did you read my post that you're replying to? I didn't say anything about lethality.

>JHP would only help in the highly unlikely near-miss scenario that the OP pic has already talked about.
Is it really highly unlikely? As I described in my earlier post, the expansion of the JHP is effectively like shooting AT a 14% larger target.

How often do you miss your targets? How much more often do you hit a target that is 14% larger?
THAT improvement is the "highly unlikely" miss that you're talking about.

I have no dog in this fight. I only shoot paper. But I offered a thoughtful refutation of your argument and your response was, requite literally, to just repeat yourself.

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>>34237783

>mfw I realized JHP is a shitty meme years ago and have been carrying flat nose jhp for years

>>34248088

*flat nose fmj

>>34248028
I aint even Zed, but honestly 14 percent of dick still isn't shit. Also, that's NOT like shooting a 14% larger target, at all, because it doesn't effect the area of the traget at all, let alone by 14% of the target's area, which would be FAR greater than the bullet's expansion. It's also completely irrelevant as a direct comparison of hit percentage, that again has very little to do with the diameter of the bullet. Zed is a shitposting faggot, but he might be right about this one, asinine, semantic piece of bullshit.

Basically, this thread is "I bought a shitty old gun because I'm a gun hipster, and it won't feed anything but FMJ, so anything that isn't FMJ sucks because I need to feel better about myself."

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>>34237783

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>>34237835
>>34238297
Criminals don't have rights.

>>34241151

>What you're doing is has a name.

>>34246675
>WHAT FUCKING FEED ISSUES!?
FMJ enjoys superior feed reliability to JHP.
This is not even debatable.

>>34240450
>solid copper busbars
Unf~

>>34241003
Particle accelerator?

What you up to my nigga?

>>34250361
In shitty guns yeah, that's the damn truth.

>>34238318
>there's many cases of 22lr killing, my ex gf had her friend die in her arms from a 22lr and he was a bear, 6'5 250lbs guy, happened in spokane wa about 15 years ago.

I've seen this blurb well over a 100 times in my time on /k/. Why is this shitty little 22lr specific copypasta a meme?