Would the military be worse or better off if it was required

>>34126206

I see.

Why?

>>34126139
Yes. There was a troop in our battalion that consisted of mostly NCO's. But the troop they were in required them to have served at least 2 tours abroad, be 25+, and a lot of old timer requirments. All the guys there was operator as fuck. Big semi ripped/rugged guys that gave no fucks. Went into a bathroom stall when one guy was jerking off, and he literally started jerking off louder and faster. Had no idea how many were actually in the troop because most of them were abroad. They basically trained other troops, co operated with foreign troops and gathered intelligence by walking into the lion's den.

Knew a lot of the guys there because I used to be opfor for them, and one of the NCO's dog almost barfed when it smelled by feet after a 45 hour march in rain. The best leaders tend to be the ones that understand the worker's struggle/problem/experience.

>>34126139

As long as it wasn't a guaranteed promotion to officer. If it is guaranteed, they will still think they know more than those trying to show them the ropes.

A minimum requirement should be like the Marines do with their Platoon Leaders Class program. You are enlisted active duty during the summer (Bootcamp, MOS school, Fleet) and a reservist during the school year.

When you graduate from college, you can either go OCS, go enlisted active duty, or go reservist.

That is how I enlisted. After bootcamp, I went to 3 MOS schools during the summer, artillery, forward observer, and survey. I was top 3 in every class and made it to Corporal by the time I graduated from College, went to OCS, and commissioned. Every school year, I would drill with an artillery battery, ran a survey crew, and got some time as an FO. I got to see examples of what worked and what was doomed to fail.

I had a bad NCO that was a great example of the bad but a great learning experience. I made a suggestion one day on how to handle an upcoming task, he encouraged me to get a book and write "When I'm In Fucking Charge" on the cover and put my great ideas in it and keep my mouth shut. That was a great suggestion and documented many bad ways to "not" do things and many examples of what did work. I always wanted to run into him later to thank him, both honestly and sarcastically.

I had a huge advantage over those that were coming right out of OCS. Some knew to learn and listen before opening their mouths, others drank the kool aid and thought they knew it all. Thankfully most of them had good COs that would put them in their place.

I'm not against Service Academies, they could follow the PLC model and be for O4 and above to handle organization, logistics, strategy, training, leadership, etc. Exceptional Staff and Command level NCOs and Warrant Officers could also go through classes.

No. It's a different skill set. You aren't going to get capable officers if you make them waste time in the ranks first. The bulk of officers, like the bulk of men, do not have long careers and just want to do 5 and get out.

What you should need, however, is far more time between each rank, a higher entry standard for officers and more people selected from the ranks for officer training.

>>34126139
no real difference. some of the worst officers I ever had to deal with in the Infantry were prior enlisted. Had a brand new 2Lt in Korea, was a West Point grad, prior enlisted that had gotten an appointment. Had his Ranger tab, even had his Pathfinder badge. Guy was a doofus. Remember how in Band of Brothers the chain of command realized Sobel didn't need to be in charge of Easy company and they sent him off to run the Jump School? Well, he was our PL for maybe 90 days and then he got sent off to the S4 to run support platoon the rest of his year in Korea.
So no. Req enlisted time is a waste of time.

>>34126139
I could see that being beneficial, but ROTC, the academies, and OCS are designed to give that kind of experience.

Within ROTC cadets assume a battalion structure and operate as a unit, with enlisted ranks amongst themselves and training for the specific skills that an officer requires. Same for the academies. OCS has the candidate come from the enlisted ranks, already giving them some prior experience.

>shit has worked for 200+ years, why fuck with it now

>>34126139
Military can only be improved if niggers and women are barred from enlisting

>>34126251
You sound like an insufferable faggot

>>34126278
>>>/pol/

>>34126258
It is an additional skill set, yes, but this would probably help with the total fucking idiot officer butter bars that we see.

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>>34126139
It probably depends heavily on individual circumstance; some enlisted guys are just shitbags to begin with. However, I think it would be a net benefit if the military eliminated some of the promotion bloat at the top. As it stands, Captains need to serve at least a year in paperwork positions. I've seen excellent soldiers get forced to waste their time in admin slots.

The real question I have is why are officers even a thing still? Understandably, they are required by certain international laws and norms, but those laws were established at a time when infantry soldiers were largely illiterate peasants. Why the hell does college enable someone to command platoons and higher?

>>34126271
>I could see that being beneficial, but ROTC, the academies, and OCS are designed to give that kind of experience
A ha ha haa! This may be the stupidest comment I've seen all year.

>>34126258

It's not a different skill set. It is the exact same skill set. Your trying to accomplish a task within the confines of the craziness that is the military and lead others to do the same.

The more exposure you have to how to "work within the lines" and bend them enough to actually succeed, the more likely you are to succeed.

I learned enough to bend the lines like crazy, but as long as I could logically justify the actions and they stayed within "the spirit" of the lines everything went fine. The best NCOs and Officers know how to get things done and don't use the lines as an excuse for failure.

Rules are there to avoid chaos. They are there to steer you in a direction but sometimes there needs to be course corrections to actually reach the goal.

>>34126314
Don't select the shitbags, duh.

>>34126314
>Why the hell does college enable someone to command platoons and higher?
literally no good answer here. search as you might

>>34126286

You sound like one of those high school heros coming out of OCS that has all of the answers and doesn't listen to others that actually have some experience

>>34126323
Rules are for the guidance of the commanding officer.
t. W. E. B. Griffin

As an officer myself, at bolc I've seen really great prior enlisted officers and there was almost a dimension of jealously associated with the amount of experience they have over you (I'm rotc). However, the longer I've been in the more I've seen it actually hurt them. Not everyone, but on more than I've seen: they don't stay in their lane, when uncomfortable instead of doing their job they fall back on what they do know (being an nco). Plateaued really fast, felt they already know everything when being an officer is very different from an nco. Bring past prejudice into the position, instead of being a fresh pair of eyes that usually has stupid new ideas the psg tells you to shut up about, prior enlisted dude will force the old way he did things on the platoon, even when it doesn't work.

All that said, it's a trade off. It's more the individual than the background they came from.

>>34126300
>not knowing how valid the other posters statement was
blacks and females are the worst in the military, and if you don't know this, you never served

>>34126341
Nice exp summer camp kid

>>34126314
I don't think college is the requirement, but certainly the training and skill set part is necessary to be an officer.
I'm about to blow a ton of smoke up your ass but follow me, no matter how bullshit your college experience was, chances are you were organized and had enough critical thinking to float by. This is at least some metric that is rarely measured by the enlisted army.
Officer place of duty? Its in the name OFFICEr

I also feel like we're in this pitfall that all officers are either a platoon leader, or a commander. You will be an lt for 3-4 years. You will pl only 1 year of it. You will be a captain for 4 years (minimum), and only command for 1. All those other times you're an office bitch. It's fucked up but the majority of the time you're an officer you're pog as fuck even if you're combat arms. Spending all that time and money to make a guy enlisted then put him onto s4 is a waste of time.

>>34126300
Brain dead liberal. I bet you're a nigger too

>>34126341
Tbh you do sound like a total faggot officer.

Are you sure your psg didn't tell you to fuck off because you sucked? Every psg I had we worked together great. I did the office bullshit like the job description is, and they always provided great mentorship. When we went to the field/deployed we'd plan together and he'd always have my back.

Otherwise you should have fired him instead of being a bitch who pouted in his diary.

>>34126258
>No. It's a different skill set. You aren't going to get capable officers if you make them waste time in the ranks first.
Says tge LT who cant read a map, doesnt know the units sacracies, and sure as hell has no idea what a firefight looks like so he gets guys killed.

No, it is not a different skill set, you're just as stupid, green, and dumbfuck retarded as the Pvt. That got to the platoon 2 months after you.

>>34126341
You come off as over thinking insecure feminine piece of tree hugger shit

>>34126139
>Would the military be worse
Yes.

1. You are lengthening the training pipeline for officer replacement
2. The job of an NCO is not the job of a CO
3. You're hamstringing your officer corps by including only a certain set of possible experiences and skill sets prior to entering the military
4. Mustangs are a meme

>>34126251
God you sound like a total bitch. Officer Frappuchino

>>34126377
>>34126410
Racist people are just as bad

>>34126139
much better

>>34126258
> t. civilian who never served

>>34126271
pretending to do something isn't the same as actually doing it. Having a rank structure for PT and class formations in no way prepares cadets to be effective officers. It only teaches them command structure.

>>34126568
I want to murder people like you. One day I hope

>>34126139
A good NCO would probably make a shit officer, what makes you think it would work the other way around?

Those are distinct career paths with different requirements that appeal to very different types of people. They way as well be entirely separate things.

>>34126409
Eh, okay, but I think it's nothing short of a stretch.

You'd end up with less shitty officers, but less exceptional ones also. Not to mention the college requirement. Which will set any officer back 3-4 years.

>Inb4 go to college while enlisted

Maybe some in the rear MOSs, but many don't give you the time or ability to do that.

In nogunz terms, it's like assuming good engineers would make good middle managers, they' don't. Good managers are people that know just enough about engineering to get out of the way and get on with the politics and administrative stuff, they get the resources engineers need to do their job and fight all day with other managers for projects that make your team look good and budget for hires, raises and promotions.

If you want your managers to be the best at managing, they need to learn the skills that will help them do their job, not the other guy's job.

No. Officers are officers and NCOs are NCOs. I've seen way too many prior enlisted officers try to act like NCOs when it's not their fucking job anymore.

Also if there was a requirement to be enlisted first we would be severely undermanned on officers.

>>34126526
There is little difference.

>>34126139
My old sergeant made (Acting) staff sergeant, and platoon leader for our recce platoon.

He'd turned down Sandhurst at 18, did 10 years non com.

Problem is after 10 years he gained a lot of experience and was seen as competition by the other commissioned officers.

When his review came up he was told "he was no longer suited to army life" (gen was he was caught fucking a captain in US army intelligence)

He left our battalion which promply fell to shit because he was also training "officer" and used to run additional training, exams, courses ect.

He also used to run our additional activities like movie nights

Two years after he left, we were on excersise with an mechanised infantry regiment.

There he was with captain rank slides on.

Our Battalion CO asked him if he wanted to transfer back in (Battalion CO was formerly 2IC and knew how good he was and what happened when he left)

When the captain came in all the battalion officers who pushed him out were in for a shock by their new superior

>>34126139
No.
Being enlisted first sometimes ingrains bad habits that are hard to break.

Officers are managers.
They keep spreadsheets, files, and filing cabinets.
Officers are not enlisted, and using up their formative years doing something they'll never do again is senseless.

That's why the Army has NCOs.
A young platoon leader is expected to use his platoon sergeant as a sounding board and guidebook to the Army.

NCOs accrue experience and knowledge through years of hard work.
They then pass their teachings on to junior officers in order to influence executive decisions on the part of the young officer.

Our system works well.

>>34126617
A racist and a muderer, can't even argue so you go to physical attacks/threats. How are you any better than these niggers and women you complain about. Sad.

>>34126237
>went into a bathroom stall when one guy was jerking off
>started jerking off faster and louder
?????

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>>34126251
Don't listen to these underachieving cunts, we both know you rock.

>>34126139
>Would the military be worse or better off if It was required that all Officers must have served a minimum number of years as enlisted before being commissioned?
It would raise the quality of the average officer, of course, but it would also decrease their numbers drastically.
The military needs a lot of people, so no, it would not be better off. The way it is now it has so far worked just fine.

everyone should have to go through enlisted basic and do two years as a private. then they can go to academy, OCS, WOCS, or go through the NCO path.

leadership all has a period of being at the bottom. so hopefully they remember what it was like for them and try to be better to the enlisted.

>>34127707
we could drop the requirement that they have a 4 year degree. merit promote Sgts, SSGs, and warrants under the age of 30, to 2nd LT.

it isn't like officers end up in branches that match their degree all the time anyways. I had an english major signal officer, and an electrical engineer infantry officer.

>>34128736
>merit promote Sgts, SSGs, and warrants under the age of 30, to 2nd LT.
But then there wouldn't be enough SNCO's and WO's, at least not enough of the good ones because they'd be promoted to officers.

>>34128707
unfortunately having once been enlisted doesn't stop senior enlisted from being retarded

>>34128777
i can solve that.

>eliminate SPC rank. all E4s are now Corporals and get treated like the NCO they are.
>eliminate barracks. go to self contained living in single bedroom apartments in hi rise towers on base. treat all soldier housing equally. on base or off base.
>hire more sports medicine/physical therapy people. have them in the gym. encourage soldiers with aches and pains to go to them, with out the stigma of being a "broke dick". run a proper physical rehab program. so injuries don't turn into career killers.
>bump up enlisted pay, keep warrant and officer pay static(excepting inflation adjustments to maintain their purchasing power).
>put everyone on BAS, now that everyone will have their own kitchen.
>stop playing stupid games with soldier's off time.

a lot more good soldiers will stay in because quality of life will improve greatly.

>>34128871
you forgot
>build infinite money making machine

>>34128942
>congress keeps making the military buy things the generals don't want. because the pork spending funds jobs in their home state/district. also makes congress look like they are tough on foreign threats.
>trillions wasted on wars in iraq, libya, syria, yemen, afghanistan. cut those and more savings.

>>34128871
>apartments in hi rise towers

they'll break the elevators on the first day, the stairs by week one. Multiple suicides jumping from roof, and will reduce the place to a smoking crater in the ground within a month.

>>34126139
Yes,

>less people are attracted to cushy officer jobs
>less join the military
>fewer officers mean the military has to potentially downsize
>end up with a smaller, more efficient military without pointless AF morale officers

Fuck yeah, the fewer welfare mercenaries my money goes to, the better.

>>34128973
funny how none of that happened in the family housing towers on the foreign bases i was stationed.

or happens with any of the apartment complexs with heavy soldier populations just off a base.

or the single NCO/Officer quarters on foreign bases.

for some reason only single lower enlisted soldiers can turn a housing building into a south african ghetto.

>also house anyone single, or married but no children in these on base apartment towers, regardless of rank. saves money by not having to give BAH. keeps soldiers from living in shitty housing or really far away. only those with children would get houses on base or get to live off base.

oh and I forget. the Navy is already sort of doign this in Norfolk and San Diego. the only problem they have had is sailors not wanting to move in. because they would rather be off base. the san diego towers are really fucking nice too.

>>34126139
It would be far better.

The entire concept of the "officer" is outdated, and needs to be eliminated.

A squad leader can maneuver a platoon.
A platoon sergeant can maneuver a company.
A first sergeant can maneuver a battalion.
And so on up the chain.

Men should join the ranks, serve, and be promoted based on their demonstrated leadership potential.

The officer corps is absolute poison to effectiveness and efficiency, and the fact that it's the officer corps that's cow-towing idiot politicians and lowering standards to accommodate bitches and faggots demonstrates that fact.

>>34128871
>eliminate barracks. go to self contained living in single bedroom apartments in hi rise towers on base. treat all soldier housing equally. on base or off base.

Hahahaha

Jesus fuck you cant be this naive

OP is a mad as fuck E-3.

You fucked yourself in the ass, blame yourself.

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>>34129176
navy already did it.

Pacific Beacon bachelor housing at Navy Base San Deigo

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>>34129264

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>>34129287
>>34129176
and i'm not naive. i was in the army for 9 years. spent a most of that time in barracks because of being in foreign bases.

there is no reason to maintain the current standard of living for enlisted. or to continue treating enlisted and their housing like they currently do.

>>34126139
Maybe they'd be slightly less fags, slightly

>>34129311
>and i'm not naive.

Yea, you are....

A well set up barracks helps facilitate the training process, instills and fosters cohesion and unit pride, and reinforces the fact that soldiers are not civilians, and lead a different life, and share a different culture and values.

Let me guess, you were some fucking support pogue, weren't you?

>>34131595
>A well set up barracks helps facilitate the training process, instills and fosters cohesion and unit pride, and reinforces the fact that soldiers are not civilians, and lead a different life, and share a different culture and values.

bullshit.

all that bullshit that they use to justify barracks, and how they are run and how soldiers in barracks are treated. could and should apply just as much to those with enough rank to live off base, or married soldiers in housing or off base.

yet those things are not applied to them, only to the low ranking soldiers in barracks.

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>>34131595
I was at Bragg when those poor bastards in 82nd had their shitty ww2 era barracks exposed.

raw seware coming up through the drains constantly. lead paint. mold. everything is broken, missing, rusted. no air conditioning and or no heat. doors that don't lock. broken furniture.

>>34126323

Holy shit that sounds a lot like getting stuff done in the corporate hierarchy bureaucracy. The military should emphasize the "business" skills it teaches, it sounds perfect for the typical white collar cubicle job.

>>34131742
corporate world doesn't like "field expedient" solutions.

>>34131732
Funny story, I'm at Bragg right now and their new barracks are filthy shitholes. I have a feeling their old barracks weren't just shitty due to age.

>>34131687
>bullshit.

No, not "bullshit".

A barracks provides a secure facility for planning, sensitive items storage, maintenance, classroom training, AAR's, inspections, mission prep, and facilitates unit pride and history by allowing the organization to consolidate pictures, captured enemy equipment, and other pieces of a units history for future generations. It also serves as a place to rest, party, and allows the C.o.C. to ensure their men aren't living like slobs on a daily basis, and that their conditions are acceptable.

>>34131773
>their new barracks are filthy shitholes

The last unit I served in went to the "dorm" approach, and our dudes were scattered all over the fucking place among 3 different buildings. It was a nightmare, as units were mixed together and nobody gave a fuck about their common areas.

When people don't own something, they don't give a shit about it.

>>34131773
well the company that broke the story. all the soldiers complained that their maintenance requests were never fulfilled, and that their own ncos and command told them to just suck it up.
>>34131774
most of those things are done at company/bn/higher headquarters buildings. most of which are not connected to or next to the barracks.

soldiers are grown men and don't need another grown man to tell them how to live away from work.

why aren't married soldiers, single officers and NCOs, living in barracks and having to put up with inspections and other shit? like it used to be a long time ago.

>>34131814
the solution is to eliminate common areas and go to apartments.

or like my unit in Japan. a company was assigned a building to be responsible for. even though people from many units lived in it. that responsible company had to make sure the grass was cut, the leaves raked, etc. though they also had old japanese ladies moping the floors of the halls, stairs, laundry rooms, day rooms, and locker rooms.

>>34131832
>soldiers are grown men...

Oh really? Then why the fuck do NCO's have to make sure they shave, brush their fucking teeth, and bathe on a regular basis? Why do those NCO's have to run them through P.T. so they don't turn into fat pieces of shit that can't hang during a firefight? Why the fuck do NCO's have to inspect their kit before missions, and after, to make sure they clean it to standard? Why do they have to make sure they're wearing the right uniform, and account for them on a daily basis if they're "grown men"?

Soldiers aren't fucking "grown men", because the military doesn't recruit "grown men", they recruit young men that still need about 10 years to mature, and they make it damn hard for NCO's to get rid of the complete shitbags that don't give two shits about being a "grown man", let alone a decent soldier.


>why aren't married soldiers, single officers and NCOs, living in barracks and having to put up with inspections and other shit? like it used to be a long time ago.

Some NCO's do live in the barracks. Regardless, they're doing the boys justice keeping the nagging, fat ass wives and fucked up kids away from the barracks.

>>34129176
yeah this.

sound's like other OP has never lived in a frat or a dorm. And we're talking about people smart enough not to enlist in the first place.

Soldiers, Marines, Pukes, Squid retards can't tell the difference between Push/Pull on a fucking door.

>>34131595
That's horseshit and you know it. The barracks are for soldiers to relax and get away from the stupid bullshit they have to deal with on a daily basis.

But instead they are used as a place to fuck with soldiers when 1sgt or the smaj is bored or just wants to waste the men's weekend.

>>34131889
why don't they inspect on base housing and off base housing of married and higher ranking soldiers then?

hmmmmm

shouldn't you have to drive with your first sgt and company commander. to make sure Private Snuffy's house off base is clean?

shouldn't the Colonel make sure the CSM's house has no water drops in his sink?

>>34126227
Well you see the difference is the one who had previous enlisted experience has less of a head in his ass. That may also apply to CO's that go to the front lines with their unit instead of staying in the bunker.

>>34131912
>That's horseshit

Nope. 100% truth.

Our barracks had a classroom, dayroom with TV and sound system, and a fucking full sized BAR we'd do unit events in. Nobody fucked with Joe after duty, because we had our shit we wanted to do.

You were just a shitty "soldier" in a shitty unit, with shitty "leaders'.

>>34131925
>why don't they inspect on base housing and off base housing of married and higher ranking soldiers then?

We do, you dumb fuck.

On post housing areas get inspected for trash, mowed grass, paint, name tags, and all kinds of stupid shit. They're a bigger pain in the ass then the barracks.

Let me guess...you've never been a leader that's been forced to make a "soldier" clean up his fucked up civilian or on-post housing, have you? No, of course not.

We're done here, privates. I'm not wasting any more time talking to you ignorant brats.

>>34127133
Don't you know how hardcore that is bro?

>>34131889
For most soldiers you don't have to, most soldiers have no problem shaving, staying clean, and wearing the right uniform.
There's some immature fuck ups you have to check on, but not many.
But of course everyone gets treated like a 5 year old regardless. And when you treat a decent soldier like a 5 year old constantly, of course he's going to end up growing up like one, with no sense of independence.

>>34132017
all my soldiers were in barracks. no one in my units ever inspected on base houses or bacherlor quarters for officers and NCOS(Japan).

Garrison did the inspections for lawns and general outside maintenance. one of my fellow sgts kept getting notes on his door from garrison because he cut his grass higher than his neighbors.

>>34132017
Then you must have been in an amazing fucking place, because I haven't heard of one unit that doesnt do "weekend cleaning parties" or surprise "weekend room inspections"
I was married and living off post and still had to waste my free time doing this shit.

And leadership doesn't inspect off post housing, you just must be a shitty soldier in a shitty unit as well.

>>34132089
most commanders, first sgts, and csms can barely tolerate the idea of soldiers being allowed to drink. there is no way any unit outside SOCOM would have something that encourages alcohol consumption.

first unit I deployed with, apache bn. the last forced fun day before we went to iraq in 2005. the captain and first sgt(a really old fart who had been drafted and a fuck ton of shit on his class A jacket) bought a lot of canned beer for the company. though all the forced fun days after that deployment, we couldn't even bring our own beer. which only made soldiers sneak off to the PX next to the park on Pope, to drink cheap vodka mixed with orange juice.

>>34126826
This is an underrated post

I don't think it will matter much. Gives them some more experience, but that experience can be gained OTJ, too. They'll already have lifers doing all the skilled jobs and they just have to oversee.

>>34126757
>There is little difference.

Maybe in the Britbong militia.

>>34126617
>I want to kill people because they disagree with me
and why is it you hate niggers again? they're dumb and violent, right? hmm

>>34129049
You obviously have no idea what officers actually do...
Get a 1sg and tell him "thanks for all that maneuver magic, but now you're the s6!"
That's literally what happens to officers.
"Wow, you did such a good job maneuvering that platoon, now you're the xo for hhc brigade , following that assignment, you're the s4 for a battalion sized element"

Officers are for logistics, very few are in commanding roles and you're hemorrhaging yourself by taking maneuver ncos out of the maneuver force, and doing even worse by throwing your trash into hhc because in a real war that will get everyone killed when commo goes down and fuel doesn't arrive.

You sound like that salty e3 who got chaptered then applied for medical and denied because "small heart syndrome " isn't real.

>>34132523
'LE MAKING FUN OF BRITISH ARMY MEEMEE XDDDDDD'

>>34128707
>leadership all has a period of being at the bottom. so hopefully they remember what it was like for them and try to be better to the enlisted.

Just a heads up anon: senior NCOs started out at the bottom and how many stories about shitty, incompetent SNCOs who do stupid shit to fuck with troops do you hear?

Being "nice" to people under you isn't something you learn by being under someone else. Either an officer is a cunt or they're not, mustang or not.

>>34128736
>we could drop the requirement that they have a 4 year degree.

This would be retarded.

>>34131976
>previous enlisted experience has less of a head in his ass. That may also apply to CO's that go to the front lines with their unit instead of staying in the bunker.

t. never actually been in the military but I read military fiction and play Warhammer

>>34132566
[Angry British Noises]

>>34132566
If the NCOs and COs in your military do the exact same job then you either have a weak NCO corps or a weak officer corps.

Which is Arab military tier.

>>34126139
idk how the dumbshits in the US do it but here in Canada your basic training is basically identical and there's plenty of officer trades that either go out in the field/on ships and do things alongside NCMs, or are trades that would simply not benefit from getting their hands dirty handling lines or digging trenches.

and as it is, you need a degree to get a commission, so you probably have some kind of technical training in your trade, unless it's something very military specific like being an Infantry Officer or MARS

so no, requiring some minimum time as an NCM before getting a commission really wouldn't help at all

basically im with >>34132632 if you think officers are some kind of special breed of stuffy pea-coat clad useless paper pusher, you've probably never actually dealt with any kind of affairs at all in a military setting because if you did you'd know that officers are puttering around next to NCMs all the goddamn time.

>>34132568
why does an infantry officer need a college degree?

or an apache pilot, or a tank commander, etc

>>34126139
Not all officers are infantry officers. Pilots wouldn't benefit, engineers wouldn't benefit. My career field is exclusive for officers. The only enlisted dudes I deal with are at the gate, or fixing up my comm stuff. All I do is nerd shit, argue with pilots, nerd shit, argue with command staff, repeat.

>>34132693
>why does an infantry officer need a college degree?
probably a holdover from other officer trades requiring a related college degree, but having a college degree at all shows a level of education, breadth of knowledge, and ability to prioritize tasks and do office stuff like that. it could also be a holdover from when only yuppie gentlemen could be officers, and yuppie gentlemen just kinda had degrees, to have gone to school at all was a much more prestigious thing befitting of the gentleman warrior trope

I think it's bullshit and that if you dont need a related degree to be good at the trade in question you should be able to either advance your career without a commission or get your commission through training in your trade but w/e i dont write the rules

>or an apache pilot, or a tank commander, etc
air crews need technical degrees related to flight (or just pilots licenses and flight time) and driving tanks is an NCM trade afaik

>>34132693
>why does an infantry officer need a college degree?
>or an apache pilot, or a tank commander, etc

All of those officers will find themselves stepping into staff positions very quickly. Which is where officers spend most of their time. Relatively little time is spent actually in command.

>>34132746
>>34132744
i have never meet an officer with a degree that was branch appropriate. Even when I was in an signal Bn. I don't think any of the signal Os were STEM.

>>34132746
This, it's a misconception that officers are mostly commanders of things. A lot of them just collate reports and give (or regurgitate) recommendations to the people who are actually in command. Others are operators of various sorts like >>34132741 who does "nerd shit, argue with pilots, nerd shit, argue with command staff, repeat", or others whose job it mostly is to understand how to use some specific piece of radar equipment or read maps to chart routes or whatever. Then there's tons of guys who don't even do that, and spend most of their time ordering pens or doing PR or just general organizational work.

>>34131595
>m-muh pogues
kys urself

>>34132790
>i have never meet an officer with a degree that was branch appropriate.
That's not what is important.

If you can get a 4 year degree with a decent GPA you have proven you can act independently (go to class on time, finish assignments on time), think independently (not cheat/get caught cheating), and work as a team (group work), but also within a given guideline from leadership (professor). This is the most important skill set.

For 99% of enlisted this have never been taught. You were taught to be at the right place, at the right time, in the right uniform, and do exactly what you're told.

>>34129176
>>34128871
>eliminate barracks. go to self contained living in single bedroom apartments in hi rise towers on base. treat all soldier housing equally. on base or off base.
Theyre doing this in Halifax and everyone is losing their mind loving it.

The problems with the old accomodations weren't because people were failing inspections -- wiping the sillicone seal of your fridge clean doesn't get rid of the fucking bedbugs, rats, and other vermin. The walls were peeling, the galley was totally condemned and NCMs have been eating in the wardroom for ages, and what few times I stayed there it was drafty and cold as shit.

People are stupid and disrespect housing that isn't theirs, but a lot of the buildings are just old and busted and need more than inspections from chiefs and officers, places at least need to be renovated once in a while before they get as bad as the place in Halifax did that necessitated that giant new tower they built

Victoria isn't as bad, Nelles is actually kinda nice, but I hear there's plans to replace that with a similar tower.

>hire more sports medicine/physical therapy people. have them in the gym. encourage soldiers with aches and pains to go to them, with out the stigma of being a "broke dick". run a proper physical rehab program. so injuries don't turn into career killers.
we also do this too, it's called the PSP and there's no stigma in going to it. higher up people also pass out CF98s and medical chits like candy because it's easier to have a guy go on bedrest for a day than to tell him to suck it up and then have his spine blow out ruining his career

>>34132844
that still doesn't explain why the army can't merit promote a few dozen sgts and ssg every year.

there are a lot of intelligent, independent, responsible, and team working enlisted out there.

>>34132975
>that still doesn't explain why the army can't merit promote a few dozen sgts and ssg every year.

Because the career of the NCO and the career of the CO aren't parallel. That is on top of taking experienced NCOs out of NCO billets where you actually do need them.

E5s and E6s are welcome to get out, go to school, and try to get commissioned.

>>34133002
thinning the sgt and ssg ranks wouldn't be a bad thing. SPCs trying to grind out 798 points, but can't because of their unit situation.

fuck that noise. where they kept points for 25F low, then encouraged them as SGTs and SSGs to become 25B. which kept my points high forever.

>>34132844
you are an elitist idiot
there are plenty of enlisted who have 4 year degrees and 2 year degrees
from what you state they're all just brain dead idiots who do what they're told
there are plenty of officers who are idiots
you're probably one of them

>>34133030
>you are an elitist idiot

Nope. But I've actually been in the military and had the experience of being around junior enlisted, SNCOs, and officers (more often than non MI enlisted) for a significant amount of time. The job for each is different.

>there are plenty of enlisted who have 4 year degrees and 2 year degrees

Yes, there are. If they want a commission they should get a commission. There is nothing stopping them from dropping an OCS packet or getting out and trying to do direct accessions in a reserve branch.

>from what you state they're all just brain dead idiots who do what they're told

No, that's what you're inferring. I stated that culturally what you are taught as being the best enlisted you can be is significantly different than the normal college experience of most officers.

>there are plenty of officers who are idiots

Most definitely. I worked with an O3 who got banned by the SIGINT CWO from using all of the phones in the J2 because he would call the 82nd SIGINT cell in Taji and constantly harass them about inane bullshit. He also got banned from talking at VTCs because he would describe minor attacks on IA and IP officers as if they were episodes of 24.

>you're probably one of them

Nope, I was enlisted. I'm going to graduate school now.

>>34133089
if there isn't an outcall for their MOS. then OCS/WOCS packets are a lot less likely to be approved.

then you have to get past the dicks in your command. that might not want to approve it because you rubbed them wrong once.

>>34132650
Not really British army NCO's can command up to a platoon.

When they're on exercise with us burgers their NCOs are often considered one up, as command begins at lance corporal commanding a team.

Their officers seen pretty good too

I think that due o their regimental system the NCOs are not required to install as much loyalty as their loyal to their own regiment.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/26/dueling-army-officers-set-fire-to-mess-with-flares-during-father/

>>34131595
>being in the navy
>soldier
ehhhh

>>34131854
tax dollars hard at work

>>34133915
>Not really British army NCO's can command up to a platoon.
So do US army NCOs. They're called Platoon Sergeants.

But their career path is completely different from officers and there is minimal skill cross over between the two over the long term. They have different functions.

>>34133971
Japan tax dollars paid for those cleaning ladies.

In my opinion, things would work out alot better for officer, if the requirement to rank up from o1 to o2 was based upon either

amount of experience(lets say at least two deployments to a warzone[not kuwait or korea] with a satisfactory evaluation). Im not talking necessarily combat experience, but just having functional deployment experience. There were too many times, where a o2 and even o3 had no idea wtf they were doing on deployments. If you cant function as a military officer in a warzone, you shouldnt be higher than o1.

Or

Completion of leadership school, for example ranger school, plus 5 years working as staff or leadership position. This would be for those people who never deploy, and usually go between conus, korea, or germany.

Once they hit o2, then they should be rotated staff side, or combat theatre. And shouldnt hit o3 until 8-10 years of service.

I knew a maj in the air force with 8 years time in service, and the only job he ever did, was translating intel, and staff.(i met him at dli when he was a 2lt)

For junior enlisted, this is entirely my opinion, promote based off of skill tests. Eliminate the time based promotions. When they hit E3, and they want to make e4, skill test, and send them to a board. When their e4 and want to hit e5, board plus leadership course completed. There are so many NCOs that either dont know their job and delegate to an e3 or e4, or shouldnt have become leaders in the first place.

Ive seen a 20 year old E5 who didnt even know how to inprocess into a new unit. He had 2.5 years time in service. During his evals, all he was good at was PT. He had no social skills or command presence, and I suspect was promoted to fill in a slot at his last unit. He apparently never did a board for his promotion either. His last unit just pinned him like it was an automatic promotion.

>>34126463
Are all enlisted as insecure and butthurt as this faggot?

>>34135640
So just take fuck-huge amounts of time to promote then. Not to mention, you're ignoring skill based career fields like engineer where you don't command until Captain, and you only command other officers. Not to mention doctors and lawyers and chaplains the host of other support roles that don't fit the standard notion of military officer.

>>34136065
a lot of those technical officers should be Warrants, including Chaplains.

There was a Signal Major in my last unit. He never held a command position and was about to get his LtCol promotion when I left.

>>34135724
no.

but it is dumb to say officers are a different skill set.

it is even dumber when I meet officers who thought they weren't soldiers and only enlisted were soldiers.

being an officer means you are a soldier, with additional skill sets needed over enlisted.

FFS, my first unit had a butter bar MI officer, from West Point. that didn't know how to erect an army cot. his sperg Pvt had to show him.

>>34135640
>amount of experience(lets say at least two deployments to a warzone[not kuwait or korea] with a satisfactory evaluation). Im not talking necessarily combat experience, but just having functional deployment experience... If you cant function as a military officer in a warzone, you shouldnt be higher than o1.


1. The majority of the career of a military officer will not be spent commanding anyone, much less troops in combat

2. You will suddenly find yourself with an officer corps made up of 100% 2LTs

3. you're retarded and all of this sounds like some kid who has never been in the military and doesn't know dick about anything

>>34126139
>Would the military be worse
Yes. Worse. Officers and soldiers should belong to different caste to prevent military coup and too much of free will and decision making coming out of military. Divide and conquer. Army must execute orders without questioning Army must have ability to shoot civilians in the case of rebellion it is must have feature.

>>34126251
you have no idea what platoon leaders course is do you

enlisted people are generally fucking retards

And if you are competent, you wouldn't stick around in the military, especially when Democrats are in running the white house.

>>34136849
Divide and conquer is about a different topic, pal. What we are talking about here is not allowing a newbee command experienced personell. An officer must know what a soldier is capable of and must climb from the bottom to the top.
Its the same as getting a new boss at work. You are more likely to accept him, id he knows his shit and how things go.

>>34127133
I mean, its sort of better than walking into the toilets and notice the one locked stall go completely silent and hold his breath.