Who do so many people and militaries fall for the bullpup fallacy?

They dont, more countries are moving away from them than adopting them. They made sense during the cold war where infantry would be doing a lot of riding around in cramped APCs, but less so now. As for civilians, it literally does not matter, just buy what you like.

>>34071241
bullpups are better because u can have the same barrel length in a smaller more compact gun. theres literally no drawbacks

>>34071241
For some militaries, it isn't a meme.
What a bullpup gives:
1. Long barrel in short gun
1A. Good fragmenting range for 5.56 out of carbine length gun
1B. Low rotational moment on inertia and overhand, making maneuvering the weapon less tiring.
2. There's nothing else.
Disadvantages:
1. Feels wrong if trained on conventional gun.
2. CG is too far back for comfortable single hand carry
3. Short sight radius
4. Easier for gunk to build up in action
5. Face closer to boom tube
6. Not truly ambi (most designs)
And so on.
For many militaries however, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages; the shorter gun is better for CQC and carrying in confined spaces like APCs, they're quicker to point nd so on for reaction shooting.
For conscripts, disadvantage 1 is irrelevant, for 2 you've got a sling, 3 is irrelevant thanks to optics, 4 is a bit of a problem, 5 irrelevant with 5.56, so on the whole the bullpup isn't a meme for them.
If you don't ride a battlebox with 10 other people it may be a meme for you.

>>34071252
>There will never be a Famas 2
Fuck.

>>34071241
For military's its ideal you only have to issue one rifle for long and short range.

Military's usually only train people to shoot right handed, and lefties are usually issued SAWs so the whole un-ergonomic is the enlistees fault anyway.

for civilians who can use whatever specialised weapons they want for whatever role, they will never see the blatant advantages.

>>34071252
You're somewhat correct, but since the end of the cold war most militarys have shrunk their budget by as much as up to an eighth of what it was. So maintaining older weapons becomes more costly in the long run than buying a new weapon system, So m4 family weapons look tempting to a budget minded military, especially since you can buy them at the container size surplus from the US, strip them for parts and have 80% of them being near new.

And if new parts are required they can be bought cheaply.

>>34071271
VHS rifle nearly won the french competition, but politics won out and HK won.

>>34071269
>Easier for gunk to build up in action
Care to elaborate on that? Never had an issue with gunk in my AUG and I'm wondering why the position of the action would influence that.

>>34071277
>nearly won
No. Not even close. It ended with a duel between SCAR and Hk416.

>>34071273
>lefties are usually issued SAWs
i really want to know where this meme comes from.

>>34071298
Having served for 12 years, with the L85a2, in an army that teaches to shoot right handed only.
nearly all the lefties i served with got either dicked with minimis or asked for it, they generally preferred it as they could generally shoot better with one.

That, and when 3 of the boys are right handed and your covering your left, the minimi covering your right seems to make up for it.

>>34071271
>there will never be a civilian version of the FAMAS that takes STANAG mags that you can use to clear your mom's basement while pretending to be a French legionnaire
Feelsbadman

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>>34071241
AUGstrian here.

the AUG handles better than an AR even when it's nominally heavier. if you are right handed, the ejection port and left hand charging handle are great. the progressive trigger is also better imo than a thumb fire selector because it simplifies the manual of arms. that said, the AR has more potential for building it into dedicated guns like subMOA SPRs or AR pistols. All in all, if I had the choice I would go with an ultra lighweight, match barrel, match trigger AR ala inrange over the AUG - if I had to pick between an M4 and the AUG I'd pick the AUG.

>>34071269
Also because the cunts at Colt wouldn't give us a licence to produce them here at the time, Steyr said yes and been making AUG derivatives for quite a while now
Its not really like the various incarnations of F88 or AR's are really much better/worse as overall platforms (they have pro/cons for each) but sometimes financial and political reasons play a big part too.

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>Easier for gunk to build up in the action

Most bullpups in rifle caliber are either short-stroke (AUG, F2000, VHS, L85, QBZ-95), or long-stroke (Tavor, X95) gas piston operated. Not a whole lot of "gunk" is getting back there.

>>34071269
>2. CG is too far back for comfortable single hand carry
What? Bullpup makes it easier to akimbo, but why? Other than facebook photos?

>3. Short sight radius
All of OECD issue optics now?

>4. Easier for gunk to build up in action
AUG is piston, gunk doesn't build up in action. It builds up forward of the action.

Diagnosis: You are talking out of your butt.

>>34071333
>Having served for 12 years, with the L85a2
just out of interest, how many rds did you shoot in those 12 years?

>>34071333
>it's a britbong thing
we get taught that shooting your most dominate eye allows you to keep your non dominate eye open for situational awareness. in the same amount of time that it would take to teach someone to shoot right handed, you could teach them to shoot proper. both eyes open, both eyes scanning. we get issued our most proficient weapon system. not really judging the uk military, but maybe you guys are doing it wrong.

nice trips btw.

>>34071380
I thought shooting with both eyes open was pretty normal

>>34071360
Civilian AUG fag here, what's your biggest complaint about the gun and what should I look out for in the coming years in terms of parts breakages, if any?

>>34071371
I think he offered a rebuttal at the end of his post

>>34071380
You can shoot with both eyes open and right handed m8. One of the oldest military institutions in the world doesnt do things because 'fuck it YOLO'

>>34071378
I don't even think i can quantify at this point,

>>34071380
> time that it would take to teach someone to shoot right handed
It takes less time to just get everyone to shoot right handed, so i don't know what you're on about. Most of the boys learn to shoot right eyes open, but never in phase 1, its usually something the older boys (like myself) teach crowbags as a tip.

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>>34071390
>I think he offered a rebuttal at the end of his post

Regardless, there was a lot of butt involved.

/k/ bullpup threads are disgusting anyway.

Military Protip:
Camouflage = fashion choice of some useless fucking desk officer and politicians
Service rifle = Bribes / diplomatic or trade considerations by politicians
Rest of equipment = Bribes / lowest tender offer to politcians

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>>34071390
>Civilian AUG fag here, what's your biggest complaint about the gun and what should I look out for in the coming years in terms of parts breakages, if any?

do you have the US version? bc ours have the quick change barrel function disabled. that's my major complaint for our version. that and that it's hard to clean when it gets dirty. the plastic housing needs a bottle/toilet brush to be cleaned inside. the chargin handle cutout in the aluminium receiver can kill the gun if dirt gets in. the gas piston gets hot as fuck and you really need to be careful to not burn yourself, I don't even use the FG at all, I use the knuckle guard of the grip as a FG. get the flat top and fuck the swarovski optic, any chinkshit red dot is better. firing pin, piston and piston spring, bolt, bolt cradle + sping + plastic cap thingy are things you should ahve spares of with you at all times.

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okay but

http://modernfirearms.net/assault/austr/f90-e.html

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>>34071406
>Spend years with NZ gronks
>Train with them
>Deploy with them
>They're always 'jus borrowin it bru'
>They finally get something worth stealing, for a change

>No longer in the army

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>>34071406
So LMT bribed the NZ Ministry of Defence? Is that what you're trying to say?

>Do you have the US version?
Yeah
>The plastic housing needs a bottle/toilet brush to be cleaned
I spray the inside with Simple Green cleaner, and hose it off. Seems to work fine
>Quick change barrel function disabled
The fuck? How do you remove the barrel, if at all?
>I use the knuckle guard of the grip as a FG
That makes two of us
>Get the flat top, red dot is better
There's a Trijicon MRO on top
>Firing pin, piston, and piston spring, bolt, bolt cradle + sping + plastic cap thingy for spares
Danke für den Hinweis!

>>34071391
>You can shoot with both eyes open and right handed
>>34071404
>It takes less time to just get everyone to shoot right handed

yea i got that. i'm left eye dominate and i can transition to my right with no major issues. i'm just saying teaching someone to shoot what they're naturally inclined to do is better than rewiring someone's brain. i shot lefty my entire life growing up and didn't learn to shoot righty until i was well into my military service.

far too often i see people shooting righty with their left eye closed. when you try to reteach something natural to people they have a tendency to focus on the rhetoric instead of the task at hand. if you teach an inexperienced left eye dominate shooter to shoot right handed, their proficiency will not be as good at first if they shot what they are naturally supposed to use.

Oops, this was meant for >>34071415

>>Do you have the US version?
>Yeah
>>The plastic housing needs a bottle/toilet brush to be cleaned
>I spray the inside with Simple Green cleaner, and hose it off. Seems to work fine
>>Quick change barrel function disabled
>The fuck? How do you remove the barrel, if at all?
>>I use the knuckle guard of the grip as a FG
>That makes two of us
>>Get the flat top, red dot is better
>There's a Trijicon MRO on top
>>Firing pin, piston, and piston spring, bolt, bolt cradle + sping + plastic cap thingy for spares
>Danke für den Hinweis!

>>34071448
>The fuck? How do you remove the barrel, if at all?

the tumb knob you depress before swinging out the barrel is missing. you have to take the reciever out of the plastic housing and unscrew a hex nut inside to take the barrel out. you can change barrels obviously but not "fast".

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>>34071460
Why did they design it like that? Too many guys doing Hans Gruber impressions?

>>34071479
I guess because plebs like myself ought to know their place. legally speaking, every self loading rifle is "a category A, weapon of war" here and thus unobtainable for regular folks. through lobbying, a few companies got the government to approve neutered versions of guns like the AUG and AR for civilians. the list of available guns is rather short, some 15 or so guns have been approved and none of them is an AK variant. here is an AUT legal AR:

https://waffengewerbe.at/waren/275/AR15%20M4F%20Austria%2010,5%22

you basically pay gucci tier money for low quality guns.

>>34071448
>So LMT bribed the NZ Ministry of Defence? Is that what you're trying to say?

I would never say anything like that, but maybe in this case you could look at who pissed off NZ during the procurement process.

>>34071371
>akimbo

Get fucked.

>>34071491
God damn, that's like 3000 freedombux. Would you own a non-cucked AUG as a civilian if you could?

SAR 21
Its good for urban warfare and fucking up hostiles in tight places with your gun instead of asking for air support because missles are expensive

>>34071520
I do own an AUG. having to pick between those ARs and cucked AUGs I pick the AUG. now if I could go and build my own ARs obviouly the AUG would fall by the wayside.

>>34071269
You forgot the most important advantage that is a function of (1): Because it is a long barrel in a short gun they never ever have to buy a carbine of their service rifle for CQB. This is a massive logistical and training advantage for both grunts and armorers.

>>34071512
usual /k/ retard thinks akimbo comes from CoD generation

it comes from ROTT.exe, retard.

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EF-88 is sexxy

>>34071285
You've got trigger transfer bars and such riding in slots in a relatively closed reciever, most of which have cooling vents which allow dirt in. The closed design usualy makes cleaning it out difficult (think of the AR trigger area, but more).
If you aren't carrying your rifle through sandstorms or bogs it isn't likely to be relevant.

>>34071559
is it finger over gas plug sexy? that guy is going to have a bad time.

>>34071569
He aint firing it cuckboi

>>34071569
its a nigger mate. ofc he has to make a fool of himself.

>>34071371
>What? Bullpup makes it easier to akimbo, but why? Other than facebook photos?
I was referring to holding your gun in one hand ehile doing stuff with the other. An AR balances better off the pistol grip than a bullpup, less tiring on the wrist. Not shooting, that would be dumb.
>All of OECD issue optics now?
Which is why I said that that problem is irrelevant.
>AUG is piston, gunk doesn't build up in action
I wasn't referring to combustion byproduct gunk, but rather sand/mud kind. An AR has a more contained trigger system which is easier to clean. Carbon fouling is a different problem, but compare a AUG to a HK416 memegun.
Diagnosis: lrn2read

>>34071548
>Because it is a long barrel in a short gun they never ever have to buy a carbine of their service rifle for CQB
And yet they do. Chopper pilots and Marine fleet protection crews in the UK use the L22 (SF use a C8), French SF and vehicles crews used a FAMAS with a 15 inch barrel(obviously not for much longer), Israeli commandos that dont use M4s use the CTAR, Australians issue the F88C for their vehicle crews (SAS and commandos use an "M4A5").

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>>34071559

Issues that mostly existed in early versions plus the fact that ARs are just cheaper have doomed bullpups, unfortunately. Now the F2000 is discountinued, the newest version of the AUG is an Aussie gun, and Kel-Tec is the only company experimenting with bullpups, for some fucking reason.

I don't think they'll catch on unless they piggyback on a major gun technology, like caseless ammo, which might actually be just what they need considering so many people's biggest issue with bullpups is ejection.

>>34071581
You don't know what you are talking about. You are trying to sound like you do, but you don't.

>>34071559
Why does Australia, where it doesn't snow, have mitten trigger guards? is there a requirement for gloves? There's a safety disadvantage to mitten triggers and Australia is a pretty safety-conscious place.

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>>34071581
>An AR balances better off the pistol grip than a bullpup, less tiring on the wrist.

r u crazy? I can shoot the AUG like a handgun with one hand and actually hit shit.

>>34071617
It could just be the tavor I held, but my wrist started to hurt after a while in a way it didn't with ARs.

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>>34071582
The Israelis actually completely dropped the full sized Tavor in favor of the X95. Even for regular infantey.

>>34071708
Why do they still like that thing? It shoots gas in your face and they keep going on and on about how over six million Jews suffer from gas allergies.

>>34071731
Only a problem when suppressed afaik.

>>34071252
>doing a lot of riding around in cramped APCs, but less so now.

Light Armour has taken the biggest role it's ever had though?

>>34071708
Who's tavor is that with the short grenade launcher? I only saw ones with a much longer one.

>>34071752
Probably referring to the threat of NBC shit, which is bigger then.

>>34071754
What do you mean "who's" ? And I think it's just a regular 203.

>>34071773
As in, which forces?
It looks shorter than the regular 203. Maybe I'm wrong. The 203 looks just fucking ridiculous on a tavor.

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There is literally nothing wrong with being bullpup.

>>34071777
Israeli, regular length m203. It just looks wrong on a bullpup.
Checkem.

Who gives a fuck, just shoot what you want, and as for militaries they make their decisions regardless of what you think, you aint changing shit.

i've got kind of a legit question. how hard is it to free float a bullpup barrel? i know a lot of bullpups are piston op. but could you have a free float aug? idk maybe even run it di?

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>>34071406
ah yes, the extremely valuable opinion of the famed new zealand military

>>34071999
Its an example indicative of a trend, babe. The French are coming back into the light too, the Chinese are relegating their QBZ to only airborne and second line units. Its the beginning of the end and no amount of "but muh extra 3 inches barrel length" is gonna change it.
*licks tears*

>>34071566
>most of which have cooling vents which allow dirt in.

Tell me how I know you've never held a bullpup in your hands because that's bullshit. I've robbed through piles of mud with my AUG and getting dirt into the trigger is not an issue at all.
The only part were dirt might be a problem is the slit for the charging handle - and you can fix that in a couple of seconds after basic training.

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>>34072050
the AUG doesn't have a lever trigger mate, nor does it have just fucking holes in the stock for no reason at all. the AUG is a fundamentally superior rifle in every way.

>>34071611
You're joking right? It snows in Australia. It's just our summer is their winter.

>>34072078
they're speed holes iidot

>>34072103
your 90s simpsons references are aknowledged but your argument is still lacking.

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>>34071559
not too shabby

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I would fucking do anything to own an AUG

>>34072078
We all agree that the Tavor is shit (at least in resisting sand and mud).
Doesn't make the 'most bullpups have cooling vents which allow dirt in' argument correct.

>>34072129
Would you... Eat a klondike bar?

>>34072129
Easy. Come to Austria, get a WBK, buy AUG - profit!

>>34072146
..Yes.

>>34072160
Austria wasn't too far away, can only get the Civilian version here... after 6 months of training.

Smuggle it for me Austriabro, will pay in Schnitzels

>>34072124
>take AUG
>remove all features that make it an AUG
>add shitty Tavor jew shit "features"

why?

>>34072129
NZ army flag here, is overrated, is just gun.

>>34072192
Well, we can only own shitty semi-autos and bolt actions here, anything is better.

>>34072185
Sorry bro, even here the AUG is quite expensive. That many Schnitzels will kill me.
And sadly the full fun versions are almost impossible to get - our military gets extremely assmad when you try to take one home.

>>34072260
Feelsbadman.
Gotta go to Serbia / Russia and see if I find something on the black market then.

What are the chances old FAMAS start showing up on the market? The French will have a bunch of them around once they start switching to HK416s.

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>>34071271
There is, sorts of, it's the G2

>>34073089
they'll be sold to a third world african country

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I like bullpups because they make excellent truck guns. Tell me that extra barrel length isn't important when you're killing a methhead that takes...... 5 shots to go down...
Also the slow mag changes is irrelevant... the situation for a truck gun doesn't involve more than 20 rounds..

>>34071629
AUG is balanced far better